What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Mario Williams over Vince Young and Bush (1 Viewer)

Capella

Footballguy
I know it's early, and I know Williams is probably going to be a good player. But seriously, does anybody see him making the impact Young or Bush are going to make on their respective teams?

It's amazing to watch Vince Young drag a flat-out bad team to four straight wins. You can't convince me he wouldn't be doing the same if he was taking snaps for the Texans right now. Whole team believes in him too, the sky is just the limit for this guy. Titan fans have to feel blessed right now.

GB you, Houston Texan fans. Has to be difficult.

 
This will be worse than the Bowie over Jordan selection. The Texans had the #1 pick, two true potential franchise players to choose from one being home grown and they get neither. :bag:

 
won't be as bad as taking Tony Mandarich over Barry Sanders, Deion Sanders, and Derrick Thomas...but it might come close

 
You can forgive the passing on Young for Bush, but to pass on them both for Mario is going to be an albatros around the club for a long time. Even if Mario is the second coming of Reggie White, this will most likely be a marketing mistake of gigantic proportions.

 
This will be worse than the Bowie over Jordan selection. The Texans had the #1 pick, two true potential franchise players to choose from one being home grown and they get neither. :bag:
Seriously, if I was a Texans fan I don't know if I could come back from this. It's one thing to be bad, it's another to be bad and then be giftwrapped one of two pure studs ... franchise changing guys, and you take a pretty decent pass-rushing defensive end. Hey, who doesn't need six and a half sacks. :shrug:Amazing. How do they have people going to the games still? Did anybody moon the owner's box today?
 
TannerBoyle said:
Maybe like the guys that were drafted over Michael Jordan?
One of those guys was Hakeem Olajuwon. I think the Rockets were pretty happy with that decision. :)
A large part of that was the fact that Hakeem was a Houston product. Part of Phi Slamma Jamma. In this case VY is the hometown product and he was passed over. People in Texas have alot of state pride, and if you go against the hometown boy, you better be right. All the fan feedback on talk radio has been very unkind to the Texans. Its only going to be worse tomorrow after Reggie's game tonight.
 
This will be worse than the Bowie over Jordan selection. The Texans had the #1 pick, two true potential franchise players to choose from one being home grown and they get neither. :bag:
Seriously, if I was a Texans fan I don't know if I could come back from this. It's one thing to be bad, it's another to be bad and then be giftwrapped one of two pure studs ... franchise changing guys, and you take a pretty decent pass-rushing defensive end. Hey, who doesn't need six and a half sacks. :shrug:Amazing. How do they have people going to the games still? Did anybody moon the owner's box today?
I've got a GB who has season tickets and makes the drive from Austin to Houston (about 150 miles) for every home game. I imagine it will be pretty damn tough to renew them when next season rolls around.
 
This will be worse than the Bowie over Jordan selection. The Texans had the #1 pick, two true potential franchise players to choose from one being home grown and they get neither. :bag:
Seriously, if I was a Texans fan I don't know if I could come back from this. It's one thing to be bad, it's another to be bad and then be giftwrapped one of two pure studs ... franchise changing guys, and you take a pretty decent pass-rushing defensive end. Hey, who doesn't need six and a half sacks. :shrug:Amazing. How do they have people going to the games still? Did anybody moon the owner's box today?
To be fair, Williams is basically playing on one foot. But yeah, its still a bonehead move.
 
Former NFL defensive back and current CBS analyst Solomon Wilcots had an interesting take on this the other day on Sirius NFL Radio. He said that he was with everyone else who bashed Casserly and Houston for making the pick. Then he sat down and watched the coaches tape (the "all 22" view) of every one of Houston's games this year.

He said that Williams is getting better and better every week, and that there is no doubt in his mind that Williams will be the player everyone in the organization hopes he will be. The accomplishments of the skill position players are eye-catching. Every time Bush and Young run for 1st downs, it's on all the highlight reels. But Williams is a work in progress and believe it or not, the learning curve is steep for a DE. He is still getting double-teamed often, and even if his numbers don't show it, he's creating opportunites for others.

Give the kid time. Imagine how much pressure is on his shoulders. The Texans weren't going anywhere this year with Bush -or- Young, so what's the harm in letting the kid play through some growing pains....

 
Former NFL defensive back and current CBS analyst Solomon Wilcots had an interesting take on this the other day on Sirius NFL Radio. He said that he was with everyone else who bashed Casserly and Houston for making the pick. Then he sat down and watched the coaches tape (the "all 22" view) of every one of Houston's games this year.

He said that Williams is getting better and better every week, and that there is no doubt in his mind that Williams will be the player everyone in the organization hopes he will be. The accomplishments of the skill position players are eye-catching. Every time Bush and Young run for 1st downs, it's on all the highlight reels. But Williams is a work in progress and believe it or not, the learning curve is steep for a DE. He is still getting double-teamed often, and even if his numbers don't show it, he's creating opportunites for others.

Give the kid time. Imagine how much pressure is on his shoulders. The Texans weren't going anywhere this year with Bush -or- Young, so what's the harm in letting the kid play through some growing pains....
Hey I said in the first post he'll probably be a pretty good player. But really, can anybody reasonably suspect he'll be the player Young and/or Bush will be? I just don't see how. College, pros, whatever, both of those guys have been far superior.He's going to have to be Reggie White to eventually surpass these two, and I doubt he's ever even Simeon Rice.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Former NFL defensive back and current CBS analyst Solomon Wilcots had an interesting take on this the other day on Sirius NFL Radio. He said that he was with everyone else who bashed Casserly and Houston for making the pick. Then he sat down and watched the coaches tape (the "all 22" view) of every one of Houston's games this year.

He said that Williams is getting better and better every week, and that there is no doubt in his mind that Williams will be the player everyone in the organization hopes he will be. The accomplishments of the skill position players are eye-catching. Every time Bush and Young run for 1st downs, it's on all the highlight reels. But Williams is a work in progress and believe it or not, the learning curve is steep for a DE. He is still getting double-teamed often, and even if his numbers don't show it, he's creating opportunites for others.

Give the kid time. Imagine how much pressure is on his shoulders. The Texans weren't going anywhere this year with Bush -or- Young, so what's the harm in letting the kid play through some growing pains....
Hey I said in the first post he'll probably be a pretty good player. But really, can anybody reasonably suspect he'll be the player Young and/or Bush will be? I just don't see how. College, pros, whatever, both of those guys have been far superior.
BnB's explanation is the only reasonable one for Texans fans. They'll be so bad this year, they could end up with two studs instead of one. They would have ended up a lot lower in the draft order with Bush or Young.
 
Former NFL defensive back and current CBS analyst Solomon Wilcots had an interesting take on this the other day on Sirius NFL Radio. He said that he was with everyone else who bashed Casserly and Houston for making the pick. Then he sat down and watched the coaches tape (the "all 22" view) of every one of Houston's games this year.

He said that Williams is getting better and better every week, and that there is no doubt in his mind that Williams will be the player everyone in the organization hopes he will be. The accomplishments of the skill position players are eye-catching. Every time Bush and Young run for 1st downs, it's on all the highlight reels. But Williams is a work in progress and believe it or not, the learning curve is steep for a DE. He is still getting double-teamed often, and even if his numbers don't show it, he's creating opportunites for others.

Give the kid time. Imagine how much pressure is on his shoulders. The Texans weren't going anywhere this year with Bush -or- Young, so what's the harm in letting the kid play through some growing pains....
Hey I said in the first post he'll probably be a pretty good player. But really, can anybody reasonably suspect he'll be the player Young and/or Bush will be? I just don't see how. College, pros, whatever, both of those guys have been far superior.
GMS are infatuated with fast, big, strong DEs. Everyone is looking for the next Reggie White. And they all say that a superstar DE is MUCH harder to find than a superstar QB or RB. When they see one who has a chance to fit that mold, I guess it's too tempting to pass up. :shrug:
 
won't be as bad as taking Tony Mandarich over Barry Sanders, Deion Sanders, and Derrick Thomas...but it might come close
You would have found a lot more people that agreed with taking Mandarich back then than you would Williams now, which makes the pick all that more mystifying.
 
won't be as bad as taking Tony Mandarich over Barry Sanders, Deion Sanders, and Derrick Thomas...but it might come close
You would have found a lot more people that agreed with taking Mandarich back then than you would Williams now, which makes the pick all that more mystifying.
This is probably true since Mandarich might have been more hyped than anyone during that draft.
 
What's attendance like at Reliant? If they're on a streak of sellouts, drafting Williams is much more defendable.

 
GMS are infatuated with fast, big, strong DEs. Everyone is looking for the next Reggie White. And they all say that a superstar DE is MUCH harder to find than a superstar QB or RB. When they see one who has a chance to fit that mold, I guess it's too tempting to pass up. :shrug:
Julius Peppers is probably the best DE in the league right now but the Panthers have still blown 5 4th quarter leads with him. I think good defensive coordinators can find other ways to create pressure and/or stop the run if they don't have a stud DE...but, it's pretty tough to do the things that Reggie Bush or Vince Young do if you don't have their talent/ability.However, if forced to choose the more valuable player between Bruce Smith and Thurman Thomas on the late 80s/early 90s Bills teams, I could certainly see a strong case for Bruce.

Will be interesting to see how Mario develops, but I have a feeling they'll regret passing on those 2 guys for awhile.

 
What's attendance like at Reliant? If they're on a streak of sellouts, drafting Williams is much more defendable.
I don't think selling tickets is an issue for them. New team after they lost the Oilers...awesome new stadium. The fans are going to get sick of losing at some point though.
 
He's going to have to be Reggie White to eventually surpass these two, and I doubt he's ever even Simeon Rice.
This is true only if you assume that Bush and Young are going to be all time greats. That is far from a foregone conclusion.
 
What's attendance like at Reliant? If they're on a streak of sellouts, drafting Williams is much more defendable.
I don't think selling tickets is an issue for them. New team after they lost the Oilers...awesome new stadium. The fans are going to get sick of losing at some point though.
If that's the case, and we're talking pure on-field performance, it's far too early to clown the Texans.As brilliant as Bush has been in the passing game, I'm suprised at how ineffective he's been on the ground.
 
What's attendance like at Reliant? If they're on a streak of sellouts, drafting Williams is much more defendable.
I don't think selling tickets is an issue for them. New team after they lost the Oilers...awesome new stadium. The fans are going to get sick of losing at some point though.
There is a pretty big season ticket base right now, but actual attendence is declining. There hasnt been a blackout yet, but the stadium is starting to get fairly cavernous. It was a sell out today because VY put ##### in seats. I went to a tailgate for the Bills game and there were plenty of spare tickets floating around, being given away. The Colts will probably draw a crowd, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Browns game to end the season results in the first blackout in team history. Even if the seats are sold though, the stadium will be nearly empty. The team is better then last year certainly, but the honeymoon is over. They've got to start winning. VY or Bush would have bought them more time, atleast they have an excitement factor.
 
GMS are infatuated with fast, big, strong DEs. Everyone is looking for the next Reggie White. And they all say that a superstar DE is MUCH harder to find than a superstar QB or RB. When they see one who has a chance to fit that mold, I guess it's too tempting to pass up. :shrug:
Julius Peppers is probably the best DE in the league right now but the Panthers have still blown 5 4th quarter leads with him. I think good defensive coordinators can find other ways to create pressure and/or stop the run if they don't have a stud DE...but, it's pretty tough to do the things that Reggie Bush or Vince Young do if you don't have their talent/ability.However, if forced to choose the more valuable player between Bruce Smith and Thurman Thomas on the late 80s/early 90s Bills teams, I could certainly see a strong case for Bruce.

Will be interesting to see how Mario develops, but I have a feeling they'll regret passing on those 2 guys for awhile.
I was thinking about this before you posted. At times Peppers can dominate a game and is making plays all over the field. Other games he seems to disappear, although I don't see his impact as the camera isn't focused on him. I could say that Bush > Peppers, but Bush + an average DE <<< D Williams + Peppers. For that matter, Brady/Delhomme seem to have been servicable at QB.
 
What's attendance like at Reliant? If they're on a streak of sellouts, drafting Williams is much more defendable.
I don't think selling tickets is an issue for them. New team after they lost the Oilers...awesome new stadium. The fans are going to get sick of losing at some point though.
If that's the case, and we're talking pure on-field performance, it's far too early to clown the Texans.As brilliant as Bush has been in the passing game, I'm suprised at how ineffective he's been on the ground.
Since his historically bad game against TB, he's had pretty decent rushing numbers, just very low attempts per game. And in the past 2 games, he's been a force both through the air and on the ground.
 
if they take peterson next spring, all will be forgotten.
Yes or no. If the kid stays healthy I think I go with him over Bush long term. You have to look at it this way with Bush, he's playing on a stupendous offense right now. I don't even think it's close to reggie Bush that's making the thing go. The kid can't run inside. Remember the game he had like 12 carries for -8 yards this season? He's not even the starting RB. He can do some amazing things but I think the offense suffers some if they go with Reggie full time. Not that the team would do poorly but you're taking away an element that provides some balance for the offense, inside running. He's also had plenty of games where he hasn't been effective running outside. What he might just become is the best third down running back to ever play the game. I'd like to see what he'd do in a Marshall Faulk type of role or see what kind of inside running he could do in a Denver run scheme, the one cut system. Of course to be the best third down back ever, he'd have to be better than Faulk and he was awesome. I don't know why reggie isn't lined up in the three wide sets for the Saints more with deuce in the backfield. If you have an explosive talent you tailor the offense to his strengths. Of course, Sean Payton knows more about football than every person put together on this board and three wishes from a genie couldn't have come up with a better season for new Orleans. Everyone says Bush would have been drafted in the first round as a WR if he was one. Why not put him out there in a base offense. The Saints best skill players are Bush, McCallister, Colston, and Horn. If deuce needs a blow, put Bush in the backfield and go two wide or bring in Henderson for the third WR. This is how I see Bush fulfilling his optimum potential. First, a negative now, inside running. If he can do this then look out. Second, a possible extension in his utilization, more looks as a WR.

(Riddle me this BatMan: Just think if they could put antonio gates on this offense. Fantasy theoretical. McCallister at RB. Horn, Colston, and Bush as WR's. You could even use splitbacks with Bush and deuce or use deuce as a fullback in a Larry Centers type of role. People forget that Deuce caught like 70 passes one year. I go no huddle and leave these guys on the field. The defense could try to sub or they could keep the same guys on the field. I think the D would be abused every play. What would you do? Whatever you tried the Saints could shift into a different formation and have a perfect play. You leave the same guys on the field and they get dogged out as the Saints shift fluently into their different packages for different situations. The FFA had a theoretical today: Give Ohio State 12 men and let them play the Giants with just 11. Who wins. Well, you could give the defense 12 men and I bet the saints still have an offense better than Cleveland's in the scenario.)

As for Peterson staying healthy, avoiding the major injuries and avoiding the persistent dings he's had in college, I'd take Peterson and not look back as I'm not sold on either of the two things I'd want from Bush happening. At least I don't see them happening as soon as Peterson becoming a dominant three down force. OK, maybe he won't be the world's best third down back in passing situations but I think he'll lend a more consistent impact than Bush. That's how I see it.

 
Is it a foregone conclusion that Mario is a bust and Bush and Young are HOF'ers? This thread is ridiculous since only time will tell if taking Mario was the right move for the Texans - that means them eventually winning a Super Bowl. Even if Mario is just an above-average DE he might be a reason that the Texans become playoff contenders. With Bush doing great it's easy to forget that he could have easily been Barry Sanders in Houston - a great player on a bad team. Regarding Young, he's still a long way from being better than David Carr. He does some good things but he's not a good QB yet.

 
Is it a foregone conclusion that Mario is a bust and Bush and Young are HOF'ers? This thread is ridiculous since only time will tell if taking Mario was the right move for the Texans - that means them eventually winning a Super Bowl. Even if Mario is just an above-average DE he might be a reason that the Texans become playoff contenders. With Bush doing great it's easy to forget that he could have easily been Barry Sanders in Houston - a great player on a bad team. Regarding Young, he's still a long way from being better than David Carr. He does some good things but he's not a good QB yet.
From a marketing prospective, its a forgone conclusion its a disaster. Mario has about zero cache or personality. He'll need to perform significantly better then either Bush or especially Young to make up for that shortcoming.As for Carr, Young was better then him today and he's been better then him the past several weeks. VY may not have the passing numbers, but he's done what he's needed to do to win - just like he's done at every level. Carr may have a very high completion percentage in some games, but he doesn't create points or sustain drives like VY already does, and he never will. I've been watching Carr for 5 years now, and he's not that good. He can be serviceable, but he wont be a player that will carry teams.
 
if they take peterson next spring, all will be forgotten.
Yes or no. If the kid stays healthy I think I go with him over Bush long term. You have to look at it this way with Bush, he's playing on a stupendous offense right now. I don't even think it's close to reggie Bush that's making the thing go. The kid can't run inside. Remember the game he had like 12 carries for -8 yards this season? He's not even the starting RB. He can do some amazing things but I think the offense suffers some if they go with Reggie full time. Not that the team would do poorly but you're taking away an element that provides some balance for the offense, inside running. He's also had plenty of games where he hasn't been effective running outside. What he might just become is the best third down running back to ever play the game. I'd like to see what he'd do in a Marshall Faulk type of role or see what kind of inside running he could do in a Denver run scheme, the one cut system. Of course to be the best third down back ever, he'd have to be better than Faulk and he was awesome. I don't know why reggie isn't lined up in the three wide sets for the Saints more with deuce in the backfield. If you have an explosive talent you tailor the offense to his strengths. Of course, Sean Payton knows more about football than every person put together on this board and three wishes from a genie couldn't have come up with a better season for new Orleans. Everyone says Bush would have been drafted in the first round as a WR if he was one. Why not put him out there in a base offense. The Saints best skill players are Bush, McCallister, Colston, and Horn. If deuce needs a blow, put Bush in the backfield and go two wide or bring in Henderson for the third WR. This is how I see Bush fulfilling his optimum potential. First, a negative now, inside running. If he can do this then look out. Second, a possible extension in his utilization, more looks as a WR.

(Riddle me this BatMan: Just think if they could put antonio gates on this offense. Fantasy theoretical. McCallister at RB. Horn, Colston, and Bush as WR's. You could even use splitbacks with Bush and deuce or use deuce as a fullback in a Larry Centers type of role. People forget that Deuce caught like 70 passes one year. I go no huddle and leave these guys on the field. The defense could try to sub or they could keep the same guys on the field. I think the D would be abused every play. What would you do? Whatever you tried the Saints could shift into a different formation and have a perfect play. You leave the same guys on the field and they get dogged out as the Saints shift fluently into their different packages for different situations. The FFA had a theoretical today: Give Ohio State 12 men and let them play the Giants with just 11. Who wins. Well, you could give the defense 12 men and I bet the saints still have an offense better than Cleveland's in the scenario.)

As for Peterson staying healthy, avoiding the major injuries and avoiding the persistent dings he's had in college, I'd take Peterson and not look back as I'm not sold on either of the two things I'd want from Bush happening. At least I don't see them happening as soon as Peterson becoming a dominant three down force. OK, maybe he won't be the world's best third down back in passing situations but I think he'll lend a more consistent impact than Bush. That's how I see it.
Exactlyk it's Drew Brees and Sean Payton that make the Saints go. If Bush weren't catching the balls, we would have seen Devery Henderson earlier in the season. Bush is great in the open field, but let's not pretend that the difficulty in defending the saints is the proficiency olf their QB.
 
if they take peterson next spring, all will be forgotten.
Exactly and they may have a huge player in Williams if he continues to develop over the next 2 seasons.Premier DE are a rare find and a huge area to fill along with a premier CB and LT. Do I think the Texans should have grabbed Bush or Young? Maybe. We can't judge this until 2 years from now.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
if they take peterson next spring, all will be forgotten.
Exactly and they may have a huge player in Williams if he continues to develop over the next 2 seasons.Premier DE are a rare find and a huge area to fill along with a premier CB and LT. Do I think the Texans should have grabbed Bush or Young? Maybe. We can't judge this until 2 years from now.
It wont get forgotten in Houston. The franchise has alot of work to do after how badly they've been managed up to this point.
 
I can't wait until Houston fans petition the CBS affiliate to make them a Titans market instead of a Texans market.

At least they can take Adrian Peterson next year. If you miss out on one Texas high school and Big 12 legend, then at least you have another shot the next year. The Texans HAVE TO take a marquee player next year, whether its AP, Calvin Johnson, or even Brady Quinn. They need to energize the fan base something fierce before the fans just stop caring.

At least they're assured of selling out one home date a year.

 
I know it's early, and I know Williams is probably going to be a good player. But seriously, does anybody see him making the impact Young or Bush are going to make on their respective teams? It's amazing to watch Vince Young drag a flat-out bad team to four straight wins. You can't convince me he wouldn't be doing the same if he was taking snaps for the Texans right now. Whole team believes in him too, the sky is just the limit for this guy. Titan fans have to feel blessed right now. GB you, Houston Texan fans. Has to be difficult.
And with the next pick in the draft the Portland Trailblazers select --- Sam Bowie?(David stern overheard saying ....."#######.")
 
Would Bush be putting up the same numbers in HOU as he is with the Saints right now? I'm not so sure that would be the case just yet.

There will always be fans who will regret it cause offense skill players are the sexier pick, but you got to let it play out for awhile to make an objective review of Williams v. Bush or Young.

Do Raider fans ever lament the team drafting Janikowski and passing over Shaun Alexander?

 
As much as I think it was a mistake taking Williams over Young and Bush, I tend to agree with the "two studs instead of one" theory. If they end up with Adrian Peterson to go with Williams (and Williams becomes a top-10 DE in the league), then the issue of passing Young, Bush, and Leinart is a little more moot.

The greater problem, however, is that choosing to pick up Carr's option created it's own set of problems. The fact is that David Carr simply isn't a very good QB. He's not terrible by any stretch - and I've been one of his biggest critics - but David Carr embodies the "plays well enough to get you beat" idea. For example, watching yesterday when the Texans had the ball in the 4th needing a touchdown to win, I'm not sure anyone on earth thought they'd get it. Even when they picked up a couple first downs, the idea that they'd get in the endzone seemed about as likely as me pitching for the Astros.

The Texans are going to have to bring in someone to compete with Carr this season, and that's if they even keep him on the roster. Seeing "Plummer" or "Garcia" or "Leftwich" on the back of a Texans jersey next year is going to do far more to remind Texans fans of their draft snafu then watching Mario Williams for the next decade.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top