Mark Ingram (2 Viewers)

[DoubleG]

I lol'd at the Colts possibility. For those who can't remember - Ingram basically WAS T.Rich - hyped as the next AP, then underperformed. No, the Colts don't need Ingram - they already have the younger version. The only difference imho is that T.Rich's attitude stinks - at least Ingram cares.

 

[humpback]

I lol'd at the Colts possibility. For those who can't remember - Ingram basically WAS T.Rich - hyped as the next AP, then underperformed. No, the Colts don't need Ingram - they already have the younger version. The only difference imho is that T.Rich's attitude stinks - at least Ingram cares.

Ingram from prior seasons I'd agree with, but lol if you think the current Ingram (the last year or so) is identical to the current Richardson.

 

[I Am the Stig]

Pierre comes back and he gets almost the same number of touches as Ingram. That's the major difference now- Ingram basically disappears when they fall behind.

The problem is when PT is in BAL simply teed off and blitzed Brees. I hate these one dimensional backs, there is no mystery to what the play is.

Pierre isnt one dimensional, to be honest he looked more explosive than Ingram.

Ingram 11 for 27 and 2 catches for 15 yards.

Thomas 5 for 19 and 6 catches for 37 yards

Much of their usage is one dimensional is what I mean. Because PT is good at catching the ball he is used almost exclusively in that role.

 

[kencav]

Watch out for games where the Saints are likely to be playing from behind, and especially if also against a good rush D. Doesn't seem like that combo is left ahead in the next four games, but they are facing four offenses that they could easily be playing catch up or keep up with in games, meaning more passing and more PT cruiser (if healthy).

CAR/CHI look safer than PIT/ATL in terms of the catch up / keep up concept. Batten down the hatches if you've been riding Ingram hard the last month.

Don't disagree here.....but have you been watching ATL lately....this team cannot sustain offense and is not explosive.

After this game I see Ingram being a tremendous asset playoff weeks 14-16

 

[Chaka]

Solid game for Ingram on 17 carries today. Did he just dominate the RB touches or did PT get hurt again?

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Solid game for Ingram on 17 carries today. Did he just dominate the RB touches or did PT get hurt again?

this

 

[rdrouyn]

Solid game for Ingram on 17 carries today. Did he just dominate the RB touches or did PT get hurt again?

He had 23 carries and two receptions BTW.

 

[Chaka]

Solid game for Ingram on 17 carries today. Did he just dominate the RB touches or did PT get hurt again?

this

Interesting.I was on the road all day, did he look as good as his stat line suggests?

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Solid game for Ingram on 17 carries today. Did he just dominate the RB touches or did PT get hurt again?

this

Interesting.I was on the road all day, did he look as good as his stat line suggests?

he ran hard...looked good

 

[Chaka]

Solid game for Ingram on 17 carries today. Did he just dominate the RB touches or did PT get hurt again?

He had 23 carries and two receptions BTW.

How about that? Must have had a dyslexic moment reading the box score.

 

[Chaka]

So what are the prevailing theories on PTs limited usage?

 

[rdrouyn]

So what are the prevailing theories on PTs limited usage?

They were ahead most of the game. And the small detail that Ingram has been playing better most of the year.

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

So what are the prevailing theories on PTs limited usage?

Ingram's an elite rusher. Thomas is nothing more than a passing down back, which they didn't need in a game they led throughout.

Since Week 8, Ingram leads the league in rushing. If they fall behind, I'd expect more usage of Thomas. Robinson is the bigger concern to Ingram than Thomas.

 

[Tango]

So what are the prevailing theories on PTs limited usage?

Ingram's an elite rusher. Thomas is nothing more than a passing down back, which they didn't need in a game they led throughout.

Since Week 8, Ingram leads the league in rushing. If they fall behind, I'd expect more usage of Thomas. Robinson is the bigger concern to Ingram than Thomas.

RE Robinson

by Michael Hurcomb | CBSSports.com

(40 mins ago) Saints coach Sean Payton indicated Sunday the team has little interest in signing reinstated running back Ray Rice by announcing injured running back Khiry Robinson is slated to return Week 14 vs. Carolina after missing six games due to a forearm injury.

"We like our running back depth," Payton said, per ESPN. "And if you do a little research, Khiry's coming back next week."

___

Also:

Is it me or did Ingram look unusually slow yesterday?

 

[unckeyherb]

 

[Chaka]

I don't see Robinson as a huge threat to Ingram. I think some people are having trouble with expectations for Ingram. He isn't Jamaal Charles or Matt Forte, the expectation should not be for him to handle 80%+ of his teams RB touches. I think 60% is what the expectation should be for Ingram's carries. The Saints run the ball about 27 times per game which puts Ingram in line for 16 carries per game, throw in a catch or two and that seems to be a reasonable baseline.

When you consider game situations you need to adjust your expectations on the fly (too late to do anything about it for your fantasy team though). If the Saints are tied or up early (or only trailing by 3-6 like yesterday) then expect Ingram's numbers to increase, if they are down in the mid-late 2nd quarter and beyond the worry that Payton abandons the run increases and Ingram's touches likely will decrease and if they are blowing a team out in the 4th quarter then you can expect Robinson to get the mop-up duty (but that likely means Ingram got heavy usage through the first 3-3.5 quarters).

But regardless of anything Ingram has to be viewed as the lead back, by a pretty wide margin, in New Orleans.

 

[humpback]

I don't see Robinson as a huge threat to Ingram. I think some people are having trouble with expectations for Ingram. He isn't Jamaal Charles or Matt Forte, the expectation should not be for him to handle 80%+ of his teams RB touches. I think 60% is what the expectation should be for Ingram's carries. The Saints run the ball about 27 times per game which puts Ingram in line for 16 carries per game, throw in a catch or two and that seems to be a reasonable baseline.

When you consider game situations you need to adjust your expectations on the fly (too late to do anything about it for your fantasy team though). If the Saints are tied or up early (or only trailing by 3-6 like yesterday) then expect Ingram's numbers to increase, if they are down in the mid-late 2nd quarter and beyond the worry that Payton abandons the run increases and Ingram's touches likely will decrease and if they are blowing a team out in the 4th quarter then you can expect Robinson to get the mop-up duty (but that likely means Ingram got heavy usage through the first 3-3.5 quarters).

But regardless of anything Ingram has to be viewed as the lead back, by a pretty wide margin, in New Orleans.

I don't think anyone is arguing that he isn't the lead back or that Robinson is a "huge" threat. The problem is, you've just outlined two scenarios where Ingram's touches will be limited, and this wasn't a concern when Thomas and Robinson were out.

I think it's strange to believe that having more competition for touches at his position is a good thing for his fantasy production.

 

[Chaka]

I don't see Robinson as a huge threat to Ingram. I think some people are having trouble with expectations for Ingram. He isn't Jamaal Charles or Matt Forte, the expectation should not be for him to handle 80%+ of his teams RB touches. I think 60% is what the expectation should be for Ingram's carries. The Saints run the ball about 27 times per game which puts Ingram in line for 16 carries per game, throw in a catch or two and that seems to be a reasonable baseline.

When you consider game situations you need to adjust your expectations on the fly (too late to do anything about it for your fantasy team though). If the Saints are tied or up early (or only trailing by 3-6 like yesterday) then expect Ingram's numbers to increase, if they are down in the mid-late 2nd quarter and beyond the worry that Payton abandons the run increases and Ingram's touches likely will decrease and if they are blowing a team out in the 4th quarter then you can expect Robinson to get the mop-up duty (but that likely means Ingram got heavy usage through the first 3-3.5 quarters).

But regardless of anything Ingram has to be viewed as the lead back, by a pretty wide margin, in New Orleans.

I don't think anyone is arguing that he isn't the lead back or that Robinson is a "huge" threat. The problem is, you've just outlined two scenarios where Ingram's touches will be limited, and this wasn't a concern when Thomas and Robinson were out.

I think it's strange to believe that having more competition for touches at his position is a good thing for his fantasy production.

I outlined one scenario where his touches will be limited, the other one is a scenario where fantasy owners will be upset because they are greedy. If the Saints are crushing an opponent in the 4th quarter then you can be pretty confident that Ingram was a large part of the reason why. In the long run that is better for Ingram.

What I find odd is that some people seem to think that other RBs don't have competition for touches. There are very few of those guys out there and I don't think anyone had an expectation that Ingram was one of those guys.

Besides when he was getting 30 touches/game he was providing diminishing returns. 17-23 touches seems to be a sweet spot for him.

 

[humpback]

I don't see Robinson as a huge threat to Ingram. I think some people are having trouble with expectations for Ingram. He isn't Jamaal Charles or Matt Forte, the expectation should not be for him to handle 80%+ of his teams RB touches. I think 60% is what the expectation should be for Ingram's carries. The Saints run the ball about 27 times per game which puts Ingram in line for 16 carries per game, throw in a catch or two and that seems to be a reasonable baseline.

When you consider game situations you need to adjust your expectations on the fly (too late to do anything about it for your fantasy team though). If the Saints are tied or up early (or only trailing by 3-6 like yesterday) then expect Ingram's numbers to increase, if they are down in the mid-late 2nd quarter and beyond the worry that Payton abandons the run increases and Ingram's touches likely will decrease and if they are blowing a team out in the 4th quarter then you can expect Robinson to get the mop-up duty (but that likely means Ingram got heavy usage through the first 3-3.5 quarters).

But regardless of anything Ingram has to be viewed as the lead back, by a pretty wide margin, in New Orleans.

I don't think anyone is arguing that he isn't the lead back or that Robinson is a "huge" threat. The problem is, you've just outlined two scenarios where Ingram's touches will be limited, and this wasn't a concern when Thomas and Robinson were out.

I think it's strange to believe that having more competition for touches at his position is a good thing for his fantasy production.

I outlined one scenario where his touches will be limited, the other one is a scenario where fantasy owners will be upset because they are greedy. If the Saints are crushing an opponent in the 4th quarter then you can be pretty confident that Ingram was a large part of the reason why. In the long run that is better for Ingram.

What I find odd is that some people seem to think that other RBs don't have competition for touches. There are very few of those guys out there and I don't think anyone had an expectation that Ingram was one of those guys.

Besides when he was getting 30 touches/game he was providing diminishing returns. 17-23 touches seems to be a sweet spot for him.

The Saints were crushing the Steelers late in the 4th qtr, and Ingram wasn't a large part of the reason why (from a fantasy perspective).

Nice straw man- no one said other RBs don't have competition for touches. However, for a few weeks Ingram did not, which clearly boosted his touches and thus fantasy output. Lol @ diminishing returns- he was dominating in fantasy when he was getting more touches, not so much the last two weeks with Thomas back. It's clear as day that his sweet spot is higher than 17-23 touches, and that he's more valuable when the other RBs aren't playing, but you can keep beating that drum if you'd like.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

So what are the prevailing theories on PTs limited usage?

Ingram's an elite rusher. Thomas is nothing more than a passing down back, which they didn't need in a game they led throughout.

Since Week 8, Ingram leads the league in rushing. If they fall behind, I'd expect more usage of Thomas. Robinson is the bigger concern to Ingram than Thomas.

RE Robinson

by Michael Hurcomb | CBSSports.com

(40 mins ago) Saints coach Sean Payton indicated Sunday the team has little interest in signing reinstated running back Ray Rice by announcing injured running back Khiry Robinson is slated to return Week 14 vs. Carolina after missing six games due to a forearm injury.

"We like our running back depth," Payton said, per ESPN. "And if you do a little research, Khiry's coming back next week."

___

Also:

Is it me or did Ingram look unusually slow yesterday?

it's funny you mention that cuz my buddy, who I was watching the game with, was asking me early in the game if it looked like both teams were playing slow for some reason, like the footing, or whatever

 

[just_want_2_win]

ESPN's Chris Mortensen expects the Saints to go "back to a committee" at running back this week.
Ingram has played well enough that we're not expecting a "committee" in the true sense of the word. He'll start and we'd still project something in the range of 16-18 touches. But with Khiry Robinson and Pierre Thomas both healthy, the 30-touch volume upside Ingram had for a recent stretch just isn't there. Still, he's a solid RB2 play given a home game against Carolina in which there should clock-killing opportunities late.

 

[steelerfan1]

Maybe it was an error but I saw Robinson listed as out on the sports ticker. Is he playing for sure?

 

[just_want_2_win]

Maybe it was an error but I saw Robinson listed as out on the sports ticker. Is he playing for sure?

Yes, Rotoworld reports Khiry active.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Maybe it was an error but I saw Robinson listed as out on the sports ticker. Is he playing for sure?

Yes, Rotoworld reports Khiry active.

Mark Ingram rebounded from a slow two-game stretch to paste Pittsburgh for a 23-122 rushing line in last Sunday's 35-32 victory. The Saints seem to have caught onto the fact that their offense functions at a more-optimal level with a foundation run game featuring Ingram, and featuring Ingram at home in the Superdome against a leaky defense is precisely what New Orleans should do in this game. Carolina ranks 22nd in Football Outsiders' run-defense DVOA and generously permits 4.43 YPC to running backs. Ingram hung a 30-100-2 rushing number on the Panthers when these clubs met in Week 9. Ingram is an RB1 in this matchup. ... Khiry Robinson is tentatively due back from his six-week forearm injury, but beat writers expect Robinson to be "eased in" versus Carolina. It would be a surprise if Robinson handled more than 5-7 carries.

 

[grateful zed]

that fumble may spell doom.

 

[just_want_2_win]

that fumble may spell doom.

Khiry to tote the ball now, I bet. Why stick with a beat up, fumbling, impending free agent who isn't strong in the passing game.

 

[oddsbodkins]

Yeah, if I get 5-7 out of Ingram at this point I'll be happy

 

[just_want_2_win]

Trash!

 

[rdrouyn]

Trash!

He has more fantasy points than Drew Brees. Just saying.

 

[fred_1_15301]

Trash!

He has more fantasy points than Drew Brees. Just saying.

And I'm an Ingram owner going against Brees.

 

[rdrouyn]

Trash!

He has more fantasy points than Drew Brees. Just saying.

And I'm an Ingram owner going against Brees.

Forgot about garbage time, still this team is dreadful.

 

[oddsbodkins]

Gonna have to reconsider him the rest of the way. The death of Brees is killing value by the snap.

 

[just_want_2_win]

2nd straight game I started this fool over Joique.

 

[humpback]

Good think Pierre is back- wouldn't want Ingram getting worn down from all those touches.

 

[Chaka]

Good shtick.

 

[shader]

Ingram has good matchups the rest of the way. Hopefully the saints won't be down 30 points next week.

Brees has to step it up.

 

[rjv]

It's their offensive line its putrid and rob Ryan has to be the most overrated coordinator in the history of the nfl.

 

[Sir Psycho]

Might be time to start the BOOM !!

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

does this guy really have to cheer up right before the playoffs?

 

[rockaction]

Ingram has good matchups the rest of the way. Hopefully the saints won't be down 30 points next week.

Brees has to step it up.

You've now got to be kidding me.

This thread has jumped the shark. I'm back in.

 

[Chaka]

It's their offensive line its putrid and rob Ryan has to be the most overrated coordinator in the history of the nfl.

Correct on both counts but both have been good enough at times to allow Ingram to excel.

 

[humpback]

Good shtick.

Still think Pierre being back is a good thing for his fantasy production? Now that's good shtick.

 

[justinl]

Starting him Week 15 based on matchup, compared to Mason vs Arizona, and the Gio/Hill conundrum - vs Cleveland.

 

[RamMan]

Starting him Week 15 based on matchup, compared to Mason vs Arizona, and the Gio/Hill conundrum - vs Cleveland.

Same here....over BOOM and Crow (although Leveon ran all over CIN yesterday). I'll probably revisit this 100 times before the week is out.

 

[Chaka]

Good shtick.

Still think Pierre being back is a good thing for his fantasy production? Now that's good shtick.

I think exactly what I thought before. If they are close or winning it's the Ingram show and if they are trailing then PT's volume will eat into Ingram's.

Ingram still led the team in RB touches despite only getting a single touch after 11 min left in the third quarter.

Thomas had all but three of his opportunities after 14 min left in the 4th quarter.

The 30 touch volume he was getting when PT and Robinson were hurt was/is unsustainable. Getting a breather from PT and/or Robinson is a good thing for Ingram throughout the course of the season and will be good for him throughout the course of his career. Expecting/hoping/whatever any RB to be getting 30 touch/game volume indicates a problem with the expectation not the player.

 

[justinl]

Starting him Week 15 based on matchup, compared to Mason vs Arizona, and the Gio/Hill conundrum - vs Cleveland.

Same here....over BOOM and Crow (although Leveon ran all over CIN yesterday). I'll probably revisit this 100 times before the week is out.

Crow seems like a shoein to have a good game against CIN. I'm kind of expecting the Saints to shred the Bears D, and if Ingram doesn't get in on that, he'll chew clock. Win-win in any case.

 

[humpback]

Good shtick.

Still think Pierre being back is a good thing for his fantasy production? Now that's good shtick.

I think exactly what I thought before. If they are close or winning it's the Ingram show and if they are trailing then PT's volume will eat into Ingram's.

Ingram still led the team in RB touches despite only getting a single touch after 11 min left in the third quarter.

Thomas had all but three of his opportunities after 14 min left in the 4th quarter.

The 30 touch volume he was getting when PT and Robinson were hurt was/is unsustainable. Getting a breather from PT and/or Robinson is a good thing for Ingram throughout the course of the season and will be good for him throughout the course of his career. Expecting/hoping/whatever any RB to be getting 30 touch/game volume indicates a problem with the expectation not the player.

Exactly what you thought before was that Ingram losing touches to Thomas would be a good thing for him and that he'd be more productive. No need for the straw men that the 30 touch volume was sustainable or it's good for the rest of his career- this discussion was about whether Thomas and/or Robinson playing would be good or bad for his production now. You laughed off the notion that it would be a negative, yet it's clear as day that it has been.

It shouldn't be controversial that getting a smaller % of the RB touches is a bad thing for fantasy.

 

[renesauz]

Good shtick.

Still think Pierre being back is a good thing for his fantasy production? Now that's good shtick.

I think exactly what I thought before. If they are close or winning it's the Ingram show and if they are trailing then PT's volume will eat into Ingram's.

Ingram still led the team in RB touches despite only getting a single touch after 11 min left in the third quarter.

Thomas had all but three of his opportunities after 14 min left in the 4th quarter.

The 30 touch volume he was getting when PT and Robinson were hurt was/is unsustainable. Getting a breather from PT and/or Robinson is a good thing for Ingram throughout the course of the season and will be good for him throughout the course of his career. Expecting/hoping/whatever any RB to be getting 30 touch/game volume indicates a problem with the expectation not the player.

Exactly what you thought before was that Ingram losing touches to Thomas would be a good thing for him and that he'd be more productive. No need for the straw men that the 30 touch volume was sustainable or it's good for the rest of his career- this discussion was about whether Thomas and/or Robinson playing would be good or bad for his production now. You laughed off the notion that it would be a negative, yet it's clear as day that it has been.

It shouldn't be controversial that getting a smaller % of the RB touches is a bad thing for fantasy.

This depends on your point of view. Short term? It's absolutely a bad thing. Anyone who would argue differently is being silly.

Longer term may not be as clear. Some people interpret data to suggest that a workload above a certain point reduces a RB's overall productivity and leads to being replaced sooner, as well as increases the odds of an injury (obviously more touches = more chance to get hurt, but more touches may also mean increased odds of injury on any given touch).

Intuitively, there is a point of maximum return for RB's, an ideal spot if you will where the touches (per game touch rate) yields a maximum career value. But even this is not necessarily reflective of the FANTASY value. If your in rebuild mode, you would prefer the longer view- that spot closer to this theoretical ideal. If you're trying to win now, you would obviously prefer maximal touches now. IE: both sides can have a valid point here on what is "better".

Sadly, it may be impossible to accurately say what the ideal touch number is for any given RB. Some RB's can handle 25 per game throughout a long career while others might be better off at 20 or 15. With this in mind, I tend to gravitate towards the more is better crowd unless I'm in complete rebuild mode. Even then- I can always sell off an asset I think might be getting more than his ideal touches.

 

[just_want_2_win]

Having lost WLB Lance Briggs and MLB D.J. Williams for the season, the Bears have also begun playing sub-par run defense after defending the run relatively well for most of the year. Lions and Cowboys running backs carved up Chicago for 287 yards and four TDs on 56 runs (5.13 YPC) in their last two games. Considering his career-high workload this season, it's within the realm of possibility that Mark Ingram's light Week 14 usage (10 carries) may work in his favor over the final three weeks. Ingram had handled 23-plus rushing attempts in five of his previous six games. Now playing on a long week, Ingram is back in the RB1 discussion at Soldier Field. Breather back Khiry Robinson returned from his forearm injury in last week's loss to Carolina, but didn't play a snap.

What do we expect for Ingram? Good matchup vs. terrible Bears but Saints having looked great lately and usually don't play that well in Chi-town to begin with.

 

[Milkman]

If they get behind Ingram will disappoint.