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"Mass Casualty Event" in Las Vegas (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter bud29
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Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
What is a concern now is the copy cats. I knew it was only a matter of time before concerts and sporting events were targets of interest. How can you attend an event now without thinking of Las Vegas. An outdoor event that has high rise hotels around it makes it even more of a concern.
I am going to the Michigan-Michigan State game in Ann Arbor Saturday and actually for the first am a little concerned. First time ever this game will be a night game. There will be 110,000 in the stadium and Given that Ann Arbor and East Lansing are only 60 miles apart they are expecting more than that outside partying all day.
I am going to the Michigan-Michigan State game in Ann Arbor Saturday and actually for the first am a little concerned. First time ever this game will be a night game. There will be 110,000 in the stadium and Given that Ann Arbor and East Lansing are only 60 miles apart they are expecting more than that outside partying all day.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
jamny
Footballguy
Politician Spock
Footballguy
jamny
Footballguy
ffldrew
Footballguy
Word is that he had a looked into getting a room overlooking the Life is Beautiful festival in Vegas held the weekend before but it's not known yet if it was a dry run or he changed his mind.
http://www.ktnv.com/news/las-vegas-shooting/mass-shooting-suspect-may-have-planned-attack-during-life-is-beautiful-festival
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Listened to the interview of this guy together with the victim's family on my commute to work this morning. Man, it got dusty in my truck for a minute. Absolutely maddening that anybody has to deal with a situation like this. The pure definition of senseless.Slapdash said:
jamny
Footballguy
Politician Spock
Footballguy
They don't. But if there is a motive, there's a good reason the powers that be wouldn't want to share the motive publicly for fear of copycats.jamny said:
When high school students kill their fellow students, and the motive is because they're sick of being treated like an outcast, other high school students who feel the same way now share the motive and copy the act.
For speculation purposes, what if this guy recently learned he's dying of cancer and decided as long as he's dying why not take some Trump voters with him. Probably not a good idea to make the motive public given there's probably other people dying of cancer who would like to take some Trump voters with them too.
Fat Nick
Footballguy
Not really - other than that they were both concernts.
That one was indoors, smaller venue, gunmen (plural) stormed into the place and opened fire.
This one was outdoors from an elevated position a distance away.
To me, the real challenge here is that you can't easily "secure" distant locations with vantage points like this. Hotels are especially dangerous now because a gunman can take time to set up behind the safety of his own room and door. I see any hotel with a view of major crowds as a possible threat now. I don't think you'll ever see another Vegas concert right on the back of the strip without some kind of change in procedure...whether it's stricter security on what goes up in the hotels when they're going on (x-ray at the elevators/stairs) or something.
I also feel like hotels with views into sports venues are probably going to have the same issue. Heck...Dover speedway in Delaware has a hotel that is literally against the track. Imagine what this guy could have done if he was a couple hundred feet from his targets instead of across the street.
Chemical X
Footballguy
I think this type of location has always been a threat........I mean, Oswald was elevated at his place of business and JE Ray was elevated at his boarding room (I think, don't quote me) with King at a Motel. You can argue that not only Hotels, but every elevated location is prime territory. A crazy killer will find their spot. In this case it happened to be a Hotel, but it could've been an office building.
I think its the person, not the venue.
beer 30
Footballguy
I mentioned it earlier in this thread but I would think any big venue (college game, outdoor arena) or any big city event that ends in "fest" would now come into question. I live near Charlotte, they routinely have some kind of event going on where they shut multiple city blocks and have a confined area with difficult egress surrounded by high rise buildings. Tell me how you defend it? You can't.
It all starts with people being aware of whats going on around them. Nutjob was in the room for 4 days, he was packing a lot of something up to his room to get that arsenal up there. Vegas is the most well documented place on the earth with cameras and video. People have to look at the out-of-the-ordinary and bring it up to someone. I realize he was a high roller and probably had privileges that most of us don't. I'm sure the hotel didn't want to step on his toes and from all accounts it sounds like he planned this out to the last detail but there will always be an opportunity to say hey, that doesn't look right.
It all starts with people being aware of whats going on around them. Nutjob was in the room for 4 days, he was packing a lot of something up to his room to get that arsenal up there. Vegas is the most well documented place on the earth with cameras and video. People have to look at the out-of-the-ordinary and bring it up to someone. I realize he was a high roller and probably had privileges that most of us don't. I'm sure the hotel didn't want to step on his toes and from all accounts it sounds like he planned this out to the last detail but there will always be an opportunity to say hey, that doesn't look right.
shader
Footballguy
tri-man 47
Footballguy
A heartwarming story in the middle of the tragedy. I do worry that Kody will now have to deal with survivor's guilt ("it should have been me," he said). I've gotten to know one of the survivors of the 2013 Boston bombing, and both her husband (who had not attended) and her daughter (who had just finished the marathon) struggled with this. The woman herself, who had severe injuries in one leg, has had PTSD ...something that hundreds in the crowd might face as well.Slapdash said:
No. No there won't. I bet this guy didn't transport 10 suitcases/pieces of luggage up to his room simultaneously, and even if he had, that happens all the time in Vegas. And in all fairness, it's not out of the ordinary at any other hotel around the world either. And in Vegas, where's there's conferences/trade shows/meetings/performances/etc quite literally every single day of the year, there's quite likely not one thing about this guy or his actions that "didn't look right." On top of that, people that get comped rooms aren't always high rollers, don't have to sit on the casino floor for 12 hours a day, and very likely don't have anyone from the hotel keeping tabs on what they're up to.
This is a tragedy to the highest degree. But in reality, there's likely nothing that could have been done to prevent it. On top of that, it's going to be near impossible to prevent the replication of this at similar future events.
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Billy Bats
Footballguy
Like it has been said, what is so out of the ordinary about a guy walking through a hotel with luggage? I’m all about if you see something, say something policy, but there’s isn’t anything to see in this scenario.
saintfool
Dead sexy
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
No,,but there will be around 200K people in less than a one square mile area. Regular games are a mass of humanity. This MSU game they are predicting the biggest crowd ever outside the stadium partying. U-M and MSU are less than an hour apart.
My buddy is a police office from a city 50 miles from Ann Arbor and they asked all off duty if they wanted to work the game. So I imagine every city and county will have police officers there.
Fat Nick
Footballguy
I think there's an important difference between this environment and what happened in Vegas. Not to say you couldn't have massive loss of life during a game, but...
-You're not going to get dozens of high-powered rifles into a stadium. Certainly not as easily as in Vegas.
-You're not going to have a quiet, secure place to shoot from either. I think it'd be really hard to get to a "sniper's nest" without being discovered.
-If you're shooting outside of the stadium, there's a lot more cover, and a lot more places for people to run.
Vegas was unique - This guy strolled up to his sniper's nest with all the time in the world to get his stockpile ready. He had the safety of his room to set up. He had targets that were essentially caged in and consolidated. Can you kill a bunch of people in other ways? Sure...but this guy thought this through, and IMO, this was a game changer in terms of how stadium events near high-rise hotels (yes - hotels in particular) will be treated. I agree there are other elevated positions, but not many where the average guy is 1) allowed to go, and 2) he can, without raising suspicion, bring lots of equipment.
My view on it is that Vegas is the absolute easiest place to do something like what he did. It's been well documented in this thread the amount of conventions, luggage, golf bags, or whatever method to move weapons could go pretty undetected.
But let's play this out....as far as we know (unless I missed something today) is that all of his guns and ammo were acquired legally....they don't really have any legal grounds to stop him. Nevada has easy going gun laws from what I gather....he would demand that police couldn't search his bags, etc. They have to let him upstairs to his room without looking. Best case scenario is that this puts off some red flags, but it's not like a SWOT team is going to set up in a hotel room b/c some guy refused to let hotel security search his bags without cause.
Wingnut
Footballguy
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
beer 30
Footballguy
Yea I hear you guys and agree. Probably me just wishing there was a way to have stopped this. I still just can't get it in my head that a guy with no military training was able to pull this off without somebody having an idea of what was going on. The GF might have known and kept it secret but typically these guys leave clues along the way. This guy either was just damn lucky or he had the tighest operational security the we have seen ever when it comes to an event like this.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
I agree but I have been a little concerned the last few years when I go to the Tigers opening day, Michigan games, Lions games or any event where there are a ton of people inside and outside of stadiums. Although I still would have gone to the outdoor concert in Vegas it would have crossed my mind that something could happen, iot is just the way I think now. Never thought did I think it would be something like this. Always thought it would be a bomb of some sort.
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shader
Footballguy
Obviously the conspiracy forums are going crazy. But to be honest, this wouldn't be that hard to pull off. It doesn't take a navy seal to fire into a huge crowd of people. Accuracy isn't needed.
Also, if the guy has been there a long time, it likely isn't that hard to slowly bring guns into the room. I've brought suitcases in hotels for years and I've never gone through a metal detector or been searched once.
Until we hear something different, it was just a guy who snapped, saw an opportunity to cause chaos and was a bad enough person to carry it out. It doesn't take a squad of guys to fire guns into a big crowd. It's sad...but that's the brutal truth.
Fat Nick
Footballguy
I hear you - I'm leery of large crowds in general these days too. I find myself eyeballing the quickest way to an exit, the closest cover, etc. Just game-planning in my head the "what-if's." Like you, it hasn't stopped me from going, but I also don't go to high-profile events typically. Just another game...not the Superbowl, etc.
I will say that despite living near by, I don't think I'll ever go to NYC for New Years...I feel like it's inevitable that somebody attacks Times Square one NYE.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Can you imagine the carnage if it were a squad of guys? The crowd was most concentrated before the shooting starts. If 5 guys are setup like he was (aside from the smoke from the gunpowder) they can get 5x the number of bullets into that crowd in the same amount of time. Scary stuff...
Fat Nick
Footballguy
This guy wasn't dumb. I have no military training, but I think that I could easily get 10+ suitcases up to a hotel room in Vegas over 4 days. I could probably get 20 up if I tried. There isn't really any special skill involved in what he did. The only thing that would've ever tipped anyone off was the stockpiling of guns and ammo initially, but it was all done legally from my understanding, and I'm sure there are collectors that have a lot more guns than he did.
After you own the guns and the ammo, it's just packing them up and walking right in. He had all the time he needed to load them and line them up in the hotel and get ready for his assault. He wasn't aiming from that distance. Just spraying fire onto densely packed people. With that density, I'd bet half or more of his shots hit somebody. Maybe not fatally, but hit a person. Especially the first few clips before everybody realized what was going on.
Fat Nick
Footballguy
It'd have been horrible. Also, I saw some things about how it looked fishy because there would be so much smoke in the room, etc. Has anyone ever been in a really tall building like that with windows NOT on the same side that opened? I was in a corner suite at the Millennium UN in NYC and I opened two windows on opposite sides - it was like a vortex. I have no doubt I could've lit a decent sized fire and the draft in one window and out the other would've kept the room pretty clear.
The holes in the windows were on one face, and then around the corner - probably the same effect.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
This is a good point. I haven't read anything, but did they determine if he shot from both windows, or just one? Perhaps the second window was broken to do exactly that, clear the smoke.
beer 30
Footballguy
And again, that kind of forethought is what has me scratching my head.
I know you don't have to have military training to pull this off and yes, I even said it once or 20 times, it was akin to fish in a barrel, it's just odd that every single thing went right. The only thing that tripped this plan up from having an even higher death toll was a security guard spooking the guy and getting him to off himself.
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
My continued biggest fear would be a plane. Even a small plane would cause a huge loss of life if crashed purposefully into a stadium crowd like that and there would be little to no warning time.
I need to get that image out of my head, but there are just so many sick people out there.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Da Guru said:
I worried about someone ramming a car through crowds last year during the Stanley Cup Finals (not long after an incident in London I think)...100s of thousands of people Downtown Nashville for that and had CMA fest going too. Plenty of high rises around too. Logistical nightmare for law enforcement to really protect it all.
SWC
Bromigo
And quite possibly they took their time entering the room because the shooting had stopped.beer 30 said:Was just going to post this. Security guard spooked him and dude offed himself. Don't overthink it.
Which makes you wonder...had the nutjob not done that, he had almost another hour before police finally got to his room to be firing the thousands of rounds of ammo he had all over that room. As bad as this was, that security guard saved a helluva lot of people.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Excellent point about the airflow through the room keeping keep the air clear of smoke.
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Insoxicated
Some weird stuff about a Room Service bill for the room the day before he checked in. Looks like he had a suite since monday then got the adjoining room on Thursday (this setup is very common in vegas), but got food on Wednesday to the second room. Seems odd but likely a clerical error.
The "ordering for 2 IS PROOF" stuff is insane. Dude got a burger, a bagel and a cup of soup on what is likely a comped F&B tab. I'll usually add on a snack or breakfast when ordering in vegas to have some extra food in the room for the morning.
But the dates, and the fact that he may have checked into the adjacent room 3 days prior to the initial report is interesting... assuming the whole thang isn't fabrication. The source isn't terribly legit.
The "ordering for 2 IS PROOF" stuff is insane. Dude got a burger, a bagel and a cup of soup on what is likely a comped F&B tab. I'll usually add on a snack or breakfast when ordering in vegas to have some extra food in the room for the morning.
But the dates, and the fact that he may have checked into the adjacent room 3 days prior to the initial report is interesting... assuming the whole thang isn't fabrication. The source isn't terribly legit.
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Spartans Rule
Footballguy
I still remember the 2001 UM at MSU game. Shortly after 9/11. Someone flew a plane right over the stadium, very low, at a time when the airspace was heavily restricted and the usual planes with banner ads were banned. Nothing came of it but it scared the hell out of me for a few seconds and made me realize the potential for large-scale attacks on sporting events.Da Guru said:
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
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