McCoy vs Suh (1 Viewer)

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Todd McShay has McCoy #1 and Suh #2 in this mock:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft10/ins...tory?id=4901957

Mel Kiper has Suh #1 and McCoy #2

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft10/ins...tory?id=4902733

The Crawl on NFL network has Mike Mayock ranking McCoy #1 and Suh #2

Both teams at the top could really use Dline help

Who does STL take? Who is left for Det???

 

[coolnerd]

Probably Suh is going to be the overall higher rated prospect, but that does not mean that some will rank McCoy higher.

 

[noneother]

this came up on Detroit local radio... if they are so closely ranked, but DET thinks Suh is the guy, why not offer a 6th or whatever to STL to swap it out???

 

[GroveDiesel]

Maybe it's just me, but I'd take Suh over McCoy.

With that being said, more and more mocks have the Rams taking either Clausen or Bradford. Frankly, it's a QB dominated league and if they think that one of those two guys could be a very good QB for a long time, they'd be foolish not to take one.

On the other hand, I really wish my Bills would do something to move up and take one of McCoy or Suh. With Buffalo moving to the 3-4 defense, having Suh or McCoy to anchor the middle of the line for years would be huge.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

this came up on Detroit local radio... if they are so closely ranked, but DET thinks Suh is the guy, why not offer a 6th or whatever to STL to swap it out???

They also said that Suh has had liagment surgeries on both knees. Although it was over 2 years ago and he has played like a beast since the surgeries. So I doubt it matters.

 

[azgroover]

This feels much like the great WR debate earlier in the decade:

Who to take, Charles Rogers or Andre Johnson? Predictably the answer was whichever one the Lions didn't pick.

 

[MrPhoenix]

If the Rams trade for Vick or make another move for a QB, I don't see them burning their 1st overall on another QB. This team just has way too many holes to address.

If the Rams stay at 1st overall and get another QB elsewhere, I still think Suh is the play. GM Billy Devaney has been quoted as saying Suh is a game changer in a position where not many game changers exist.

Don't underestimate the possibility of a trade down, though. Part of the QB speculation might be a ploy to entice a team like Washington to trade up for 1st overall.

 

[Deuceman]

This feels much like the great WR debate earlier in the decade:

Who to take, Charles Rogers or Andre Johnson? Predictably the answer was whichever one the Lions didn't pick.

Remember this vividly and wanted AJ in Detroit real bad, thought Rogers being in his hometown would be a VERY bad move. It was...........Carry on

 

[IHEARTFF]

I stopped reading at Todd McShay

 

[Tenacious D]

If the Rams trade for Vick or make another move for a QB, I don't see them burning their 1st overall on another QB. This team just has way too many holes to address.

That's the problem, they really need to address their QB before the draft - Vick, McNabb, whoever. If they don't, that's a lot of pressure on Spags and Devaney...maybe they (correctly) don't think Bradford or Clausen are "franchise" QB material, but are they good enough to buy them more time to turn the team around? You buy yourself a few more years when you draft a QB. I don't care how many people are on Suh's jock now, when you have no NFL QB on the roster and you've been drafting linemen galore the last three years, fans and pundits are all over this decision 10 seconds after it is made. And those on the Suh bandwagon fall off quickly when it's too hard for them to recognize his progress or contributions week-to-week. That's why no DT has gone first overall since 1994 and QBs have in 9 of the last 12 drafts.

 

[FUBAR]

If the Rams trade for Vick or make another move for a QB, I don't see them burning their 1st overall on another QB. This team just has way too many holes to address.

That's the problem, they really need to address their QB before the draft - Vick, McNabb, whoever. If they don't, that's a lot of pressure on Spags and Devaney...maybe they (correctly) don't think Bradford or Clausen are "franchise" QB material, but are they good enough to buy them more time to turn the team around? You buy yourself a few more years when you draft a QB. I don't care how many people are on Suh's jock now, when you have no NFL QB on the roster and you've been drafting linemen galore the last three years, fans and pundits are all over this decision 10 seconds after it is made. And those on the Suh bandwagon fall off quickly when it's too hard for them to recognize his progress or contributions week-to-week. That's why no DT has gone first overall since 1994 and QBs have in 9 of the last 12 drafts.

Pennington would be a decent fill-in starter for a couple years.

 

[Football Critic]

Both are beasts!

Yet the knee injuries to Suh will catch up to him....shorter NFL life, but a beast as of now none the less.

I would take Suh!

 

[IDrinkyourMilkshake]

this came up on Detroit local radio... if they are so closely ranked, but DET thinks Suh is the guy, why not offer a 6th or whatever to STL to swap it out???

Pretty sure it would take more than a 6th to move up to get Suh/ Especially considering everyone views him as the best DT prospect EVER.

 

[Football Critic]

this came up on Detroit local radio... if they are so closely ranked, but DET thinks Suh is the guy, why not offer a 6th or whatever to STL to swap it out???

Pretty sure it would take more than a 6th to move up to get Suh/ Especially considering everyone views him as the best DT prospect EVER.

Even if it is just one spot?I mean it is pick 1 and 2 not pick 1 and 10, but STL might not want to move it at all.

 

[IDrinkyourMilkshake]

this came up on Detroit local radio... if they are so closely ranked, but DET thinks Suh is the guy, why not offer a 6th or whatever to STL to swap it out???

Pretty sure it would take more than a 6th to move up to get Suh/ Especially considering everyone views him as the best DT prospect EVER.

Even if it is just one spot?I mean it is pick 1 and 2 not pick 1 and 10, but STL might not want to move it at all.

The Lions traded their 2nd round pick to move up one spot (from 7 to 6 I think) a few years ago. The Rams would likely ask for atleast a 3rd rounder.

 

[Football Critic]

this came up on Detroit local radio... if they are so closely ranked, but DET thinks Suh is the guy, why not offer a 6th or whatever to STL to swap it out???

Pretty sure it would take more than a 6th to move up to get Suh/ Especially considering everyone views him as the best DT prospect EVER.

Even if it is just one spot?I mean it is pick 1 and 2 not pick 1 and 10, but STL might not want to move it at all.

The Lions traded their 2nd round pick to move up one spot (from 7 to 6 I think) a few years ago. The Rams would likely ask for atleast a 3rd rounder.

TrueBut is that the standard now or did the Lions just pay too much...After all Millen was in charge

 

[Leroy Hoard]

This feels much like the great WR debate earlier in the decade:

Who to take, Charles Rogers or Andre Johnson? Predictably the answer was whichever one the Lions didn't pick.

Which means the lions might be better off if the rams choose one for them. A coin flip between them means the lions lose every time.

 

[FUBAR]

this came up on Detroit local radio... if they are so closely ranked, but DET thinks Suh is the guy, why not offer a 6th or whatever to STL to swap it out???

Pretty sure it would take more than a 6th to move up to get Suh/ Especially considering everyone views him as the best DT prospect EVER.

Even if it is just one spot?I mean it is pick 1 and 2 not pick 1 and 10, but STL might not want to move it at all.

The Lions traded their 2nd round pick to move up one spot (from 7 to 6 I think) a few years ago. The Rams would likely ask for atleast a 3rd rounder.

TrueBut is that the standard now or did the Lions just pay too much...After all Millen was in charge

X Cleveland gave their 2nd round pick to Detroit to move up 1 spot.

 

[IDrinkyourMilkshake]

X Cleveland gave their 2nd round pick to Detroit to move up 1 spot.

Yes you are correct. But the Rams will still be asking for atleast a third from Detroit. An extra sixth round pick isn't really that great.

 

[Dexter Manley]

Well the 2 players have different styles of play. Suh is much better at holding up at the point of attack. McCoy is mainly a penetrator and disrupter.

The one thing I don't hear Kiper or McShay talking about is character and leadership, which NFL teams are putting a much bigger emphathis on than in years past. Remeber how scouts, coaches, and personnel guys were creaming themselves over Aaron Curry's leadership and character last year? Once NFL teams start doing interviews with Suh, he's going to be this years Aaron Curry wrt intangibles such as leadership, character, etc. Except he's a way better prospect at DT than Curry was at LB.

Suh is a team leader in the mold of guys like Ray Lewis, except he has exponentially better character. NFL people are going to fall in love with the guy once they start talking to him.

I'll admit I know nothing about McCoy's intangibles, so maybe someone else can comment on that.

 

[Getinthemix]

X Cleveland gave their 2nd round pick to Detroit to move up 1 spot.

Yes you are correct. But the Rams will still be asking for atleast a third from Detroit. An extra sixth round pick isn't really that great.

Historically it takes a lot more than a 3 to move up to #1. I really think that Detroit would have to offer a lot more, especially because Bill Devaney does not want to be forever labeled as the guy who gave away the #1 overall pick.

 

[Cecil Lammey]

Talking with scouts/insiders at the Shrine Game, Senior Bowl, and Texas v The Nation I would say that McCoy is certainly climbing up the charts and could pass Suh on some draft boards.

I had a scout tell me that Suh has the higher floor, but McCoy has the higher ceiling.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Suh is th emost dominant DT I have seen come out of college since Warren Sapp. McCoy in a lot of years would be the #1 pick but Suh has a little something extra. You would be a fool to pass him up.

 

[Dexter Manley]

Talking with scouts/insiders at the Shrine Game, Senior Bowl, and Texas v The Nation I would say that McCoy is certainly climbing up the charts and could pass Suh on some draft boards.I had a scout tell me that Suh has the higher floor, but McCoy has the higher ceiling.

I buy this. Reminds me of the great Manning vs. Leaf debate. Same thing. Manning had the higher floor and Leaf had the higher ceiling. While I would be shocked if McCoy's career has a similar trajectory to Leaf's (barring injury), I think drafting McCoy over Suh is the type of decision that can potentially cost people their jobs. Personally, I wouldn't try and get cut, and I would take Suh at #1. Only way I would pass on him is if some other team near the top traded enough picks to make it worth trading down. For example, If the Rams want to go QB, then their best hope is for TB to fall in love with Suh/McCoy (because I think Detroit is taking whichever one falls to them and they're obviously not going QB) and work out a deal with them. It's too risky to move down lower than that with Washington potentially picking a QB at #4. Of course if TB knows this, then it becomes a poker game if they have Suh and McCoy ranked equally -- why would they pay to move up if they're convinced the Rams want to take a QB?Also, I've seen several Lions fans on this board lament that fact that they're not the top pick and won't get a shot at Suh. I actually think they're in a great position, as they're going to get either Suh or McCoy to anchor their defense. And they won't even have to make a decision unless the Rams go QB.

 

[vandyt]

Maybe it's just me, but I'd take Suh over McCoy.

With that being said, more and more mocks have the Rams taking either Clausen or Bradford. Frankly, it's a QB dominated league and if they think that one of those two guys could be a very good QB for a long time, they'd be foolish not to take one.

On the other hand, I really wish my Bills would do something to move up and take one of McCoy or Suh. With Buffalo moving to the 3-4 defense, having Suh or McCoy to anchor the middle of the line for years would be huge.

McCoy as a 3-4 NT? Might as well put him at Free Saftey...

 

[Dexter Manley]

Maybe it's just me, but I'd take Suh over McCoy.

With that being said, more and more mocks have the Rams taking either Clausen or Bradford. Frankly, it's a QB dominated league and if they think that one of those two guys could be a very good QB for a long time, they'd be foolish not to take one.

On the other hand, I really wish my Bills would do something to move up and take one of McCoy or Suh. With Buffalo moving to the 3-4 defense, having Suh or McCoy to anchor the middle of the line for years would be huge.

McCoy as a 3-4 NT? Might as well put him at Free Saftey...

My bad. I thought they still ran a 4-3. Yea, they're pretty much screwed then if the Rams take Suh unless someone below Washington wants to trade up to grab McCoy.

 

[tex]

I don't know if I have ever seen a more dominating defensive performance than suh's against Texas in the Big 12 Championship. Based on that performance alone, if I needed a DT, he would be my choice!!

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I don't know if I have ever seen a more dominating defensive performance than suh's against Texas in the Big 12 Championship. Based on that performance alone, if I needed a DT, he would be my choice!!

Tex, what happened to that 19/20 year old kid you all drafted at DT 2-3 years ago? I haven't heard much about him since he was drafted.

 

[Da Guru]

Those two guys are basically neck and neck.

I would have no problem with the Lions drafting two and getting McCoy.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

I don't know if I have ever seen a more dominating defensive performance than suh's against Texas in the Big 12 Championship. Based on that performance alone, if I needed a DT, he would be my choice!!

Tex, what happened to that 19/20 year old kid you all drafted at DT 2-3 years ago? I haven't heard much about him since he was drafted.

Amobi Okoye?

 

[MrPhoenix]

If the Rams trade for Vick or make another move for a QB, I don't see them burning their 1st overall on another QB. This team just has way too many holes to address.

That's the problem, they really need to address their QB before the draft - Vick, McNabb, whoever. If they don't, that's a lot of pressure on Spags and Devaney...maybe they (correctly) don't think Bradford or Clausen are "franchise" QB material, but are they good enough to buy them more time to turn the team around? You buy yourself a few more years when you draft a QB. I don't care how many people are on Suh's jock now, when you have no NFL QB on the roster and you've been drafting linemen galore the last three years, fans and pundits are all over this decision 10 seconds after it is made. And those on the Suh bandwagon fall off quickly when it's too hard for them to recognize his progress or contributions week-to-week. That's why no DT has gone first overall since 1994 and QBs have in 9 of the last 12 drafts.

Pennington would be a decent fill-in starter for a couple years.

Until he gets hurt in the 1st week or his right arm falls off.

 

[MAC_32]

Am I the only one that thinks McCoy is grossly over rated?

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Am I the only one that thinks McCoy is grossly over rated?

Not sure, can you expand upon why you think so? seems like these two are neck n neck for top spot. Suh has more "hype" IMO

 

[MAC_32]

Am I the only one that thinks McCoy is grossly over rated?

Not sure, can you expand upon why you think so? seems like these two are neck n neck for top spot. Suh has more "hype" IMO

I don't think he can handle bigger and skilled linemen, especially in the run game. If he were in a scheme that allowed him some freedom and flexibility as to where he can line up and attack and with a group of players that allowed him to not be the focal point I think he can do well, and possibly very well but that isn't the type of player you take at the top of round 1. You take a talent at the top, not one that's somewhat dependent on the situation. On a talentless team like Detroit I don't think he'd have much of an impact, at least not one worth a top pick. St Louis might be a better fit because they have some talent in the front 7 to take attention away from, but still is that the sort of player they should be looking up in round 1?I think the first team that should consider him is Jacksonville, but a team like Houston or Atlanta makes the most sense. A solid offensive team in most need of improvement on the d line but already has some pieces in place.

 

[Christo]

Am I the only one that thinks McCoy is grossly over rated?

Grossly?I've watched them both a lot. McCoy more than Suh. McCoy is not the physical freak that Suh is. But he's a superior athlete at the DT position. Explosive like Tommy Harris. He's not quite on Harris' level. But he's very good. Certainly worth a Top 10 draft pick.

 

[rapidskies]

I've watched them both (more Suh than McCoy) and here is what I took away:

Suh will dominate an offensive lineman and has amazing strength and agility for the DT position. He goes through lineman, pushes them back into the QB, or brushes them aside. He also has amazing speed for a DT and never slows down on a play. He ran down so many QB's and RB's from behind it is crazy. He knows where the passing lanes are and is insanely good at holding his position and getting a hand up to deflect a pass.

McCoy has amazing strength and technique and pretty much domininated anyone across from him. He is a fireplug, want to stop the run? say hello to Mr McCoy. He has decent speed and goes hard through most of the play. I didn't see too many pass by him so not sure how he compares there.

I think these guys are very different as McCoy gets lower to the ground and you can't budge him while Suh throws people around, attacks or holds his ground and breaks up passes or runs a guy down. They are both great DT's imagine if these two had been on the same team. If I were drafting I would take Suh, he is unstoppable barring injury. #2 spot would be McCoy.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Maybe it's just me, but I'd take Suh over McCoy.

With that being said, more and more mocks have the Rams taking either Clausen or Bradford. Frankly, it's a QB dominated league and if they think that one of those two guys could be a very good QB for a long time, they'd be foolish not to take one.

On the other hand, I really wish my Bills would do something to move up and take one of McCoy or Suh. With Buffalo moving to the 3-4 defense, having Suh or McCoy to anchor the middle of the line for years would be huge.

McCoy as a 3-4 NT? Might as well put him at Free Saftey...

Why wouldn't McCoy fit as NT? He's about the same size as Suh(maybe not quite as bulky looking), is good against the run, plays low and stuffs gaps. He doesn't throw guys around as much as Suh, but not many guys do. McCoy does a great job of penetrating through the line. He's not going to line up directly over the ball against large centers most likely, but I think he definitely has the skill set to play DT in a 3-4.

 

[mcintyre1]

Maybe it's just me, but I'd take Suh over McCoy.

With that being said, more and more mocks have the Rams taking either Clausen or Bradford. Frankly, it's a QB dominated league and if they think that one of those two guys could be a very good QB for a long time, they'd be foolish not to take one.

On the other hand, I really wish my Bills would do something to move up and take one of McCoy or Suh. With Buffalo moving to the 3-4 defense, having Suh or McCoy to anchor the middle of the line for years would be huge.

McCoy as a 3-4 NT? Might as well put him at Free Saftey...

Why wouldn't McCoy fit as NT? He's about the same size as Suh(maybe not quite as bulky looking), is good against the run, plays low and stuffs gaps. He doesn't throw guys around as much as Suh, but not many guys do. McCoy does a great job of penetrating through the line. He's not going to line up directly over the ball against large centers most likely, but I think he definitely has the skill set to play DT in a 3-4.

Both are too light to play NT in a 3-4. You need a guy pushing 340-350, and generally a bit shorter in that spot. But I think Suh in particular, and to a lesser extent McCoy, would excel as DE's in a 3-4.

 

[Matt Waldman]

I've watched them both (more Suh than McCoy) and here is what I took away:Suh will dominate an offensive lineman and has amazing strength and agility for the DT position. He goes through lineman, pushes them back into the QB, or brushes them aside. He also has amazing speed for a DT and never slows down on a play. He ran down so many QB's and RB's from behind it is crazy. He knows where the passing lanes are and is insanely good at holding his position and getting a hand up to deflect a pass.McCoy has amazing strength and technique and pretty much domininated anyone across from him. He is a fireplug, want to stop the run? say hello to Mr McCoy. He has decent speed and goes hard through most of the play. I didn't see too many pass by him so not sure how he compares there.I think these guys are very different as McCoy gets lower to the ground and you can't budge him while Suh throws people around, attacks or holds his ground and breaks up passes or runs a guy down. They are both great DT's imagine if these two had been on the same team. If I were drafting I would take Suh, he is unstoppable barring injury. #2 spot would be McCoy.

Good analysis. I'm watching Suh's dominating performance against Texas in the Big 12 Championship Game right now, and the way he can throw people around reminds me a little of Reggie White. He's not as explosive as say a John Randle, but his agility, strength, and understanding of leverage is scary good for a guy this young (Quick edit: Although watching him close the gap on a pretty quick QB like McCoy is plenty explosive). The Rams should solidify that defensive front either way they go, but I'd take Suh.

 

[Christo]

Both are too light to play NT in a 3-4. You need a guy pushing 340-350, and generally a bit shorter in that spot. But I think Suh in particular, and to a lesser extent McCoy, would excel as DE's in a 3-4.

I'm not saying either can effectively play the position. But your size requirements are just silly. Jay Ratliff plays NT pretty well at 6'4" and #303.

 

[TheWheel]

The ESPN Draft Hype Machine has started!!!!

First, you cannot draw too much from college tape. They have been playing against amateurs. I'd rather see some analysis on how well their technique is than the results.

Second, I don't see the Rams staying on the first pick. The first pick hasn't been traded for years but there hasn't been the commodity known as Suh and the Rams could really use more picks. There are a lot of teams that would go out of their way for them.

Third, I feel bad for both of these guys. They may get paid a lot but they are ripe for busting if their teams don't put it together eventually.

Fourth, Suh having two knee surgeries isn't good but it isn't too bad. Frank Gore blew out his knees three times (at least) and hasn't had too many problems.

 

[Sinrman]

The ESPN Draft Hype Machine has started!!!!First, you cannot draw too much from college tape. They have been playing against amateurs. I'd rather see some analysis on how well their technique is than the results.Second, I don't see the Rams staying on the first pick. The first pick hasn't been traded for years but there hasn't been the commodity known as Suh and the Rams could really use more picks. There are a lot of teams that would go out of their way for them.Third, I feel bad for both of these guys. They may get paid a lot but they are ripe for busting if their teams don't put it together eventually.Fourth, Suh having two knee surgeries isn't good but it isn't too bad. Frank Gore blew out his knees three times (at least) and hasn't had too many problems.

It hasn't been traded in years because it is too expensive to trade up. Even if the Lions were to trade up from #2 to #1 it would cost them a good deal. Teams don't want to be shackled with a) giving up good picks to move up to #1 and b) having to pay a TON of money to whomever they draft at #1. There's even a significant drop in $$ from #1 to #2 usually...

 

[GroveDiesel]

Maybe it's just me, but I'd take Suh over McCoy.

With that being said, more and more mocks have the Rams taking either Clausen or Bradford. Frankly, it's a QB dominated league and if they think that one of those two guys could be a very good QB for a long time, they'd be foolish not to take one.

On the other hand, I really wish my Bills would do something to move up and take one of McCoy or Suh. With Buffalo moving to the 3-4 defense, having Suh or McCoy to anchor the middle of the line for years would be huge.

McCoy as a 3-4 NT? Might as well put him at Free Saftey...

Why wouldn't McCoy fit as NT? He's about the same size as Suh(maybe not quite as bulky looking), is good against the run, plays low and stuffs gaps. He doesn't throw guys around as much as Suh, but not many guys do. McCoy does a great job of penetrating through the line. He's not going to line up directly over the ball against large centers most likely, but I think he definitely has the skill set to play DT in a 3-4.

Both are too light to play NT in a 3-4. You need a guy pushing 340-350, and generally a bit shorter in that spot. But I think Suh in particular, and to a lesser extent McCoy, would excel as DE's in a 3-4.

It's going to depend on how much more weight those guys could carry. Vince Wilfork came into the league at 323 pounds. His current playing weight is 325. And honestly, size is part of the equation, but strength is even bigger IMO. Suh is an absolute beast who benches close to 500 pounds. I'd rather have a tremendously strong guy like that who can still move really well than a 380 fat slob like a Gilbert Brown who may be great against the run for 10 plays a game and whose body breaks down after 4 or 5 seasons.

 

[mcintyre1]

Maybe it's just me, but I'd take Suh over McCoy.

With that being said, more and more mocks have the Rams taking either Clausen or Bradford. Frankly, it's a QB dominated league and if they think that one of those two guys could be a very good QB for a long time, they'd be foolish not to take one.

On the other hand, I really wish my Bills would do something to move up and take one of McCoy or Suh. With Buffalo moving to the 3-4 defense, having Suh or McCoy to anchor the middle of the line for years would be huge.

McCoy as a 3-4 NT? Might as well put him at Free Saftey...

Why wouldn't McCoy fit as NT? He's about the same size as Suh(maybe not quite as bulky looking), is good against the run, plays low and stuffs gaps. He doesn't throw guys around as much as Suh, but not many guys do. McCoy does a great job of penetrating through the line. He's not going to line up directly over the ball against large centers most likely, but I think he definitely has the skill set to play DT in a 3-4.

Both are too light to play NT in a 3-4. You need a guy pushing 340-350, and generally a bit shorter in that spot. But I think Suh in particular, and to a lesser extent McCoy, would excel as DE's in a 3-4.

It's going to depend on how much more weight those guys could carry. Vince Wilfork came into the league at 323 pounds. His current playing weight is 325. And honestly, size is part of the equation, but strength is even bigger IMO. Suh is an absolute beast who benches close to 500 pounds. I'd rather have a tremendously strong guy like that who can still move really well than a 380 fat slob like a Gilbert Brown who may be great against the run for 10 plays a game and whose body breaks down after 4 or 5 seasons.

Maybe I went a little high on the 340-350 range, but really not by much. Wilfork played at 340 in college, and the only time he weighed 323 lbs (or anywhere near it) was at the Combine. He weighed 336 not long after that for a pre-draft article, and I'd put good money on him being at or over 340 right now. But anyways, I think at the very least Suh could put on that weight healthily and be a solid NT, but it would be a tremendous waste of his talents. I even think a DE in a 3-4 is wasting him, despite wishing really badly that the Steelers could somehow get him.