Ghost Rider
Footballguy
In four games with McNabb: 17-178-1
In two games without McNabb: 16-208-1
In two games without McNabb: 16-208-1
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McNabb is killing Celek (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Ghost Rider
- Start date
Kitrick Taylor
Footballguy
Few QBs rival McNabb in terms of hitting an open man near his ankles.
It unfortunately counted for me and every other Celek owner that needed points from him last night. McNabb isn't even looking for Celek. If he dumps off, he goes to his favorite guy Westbrook. It's gotten to the point where Celek owners have to think about getting another TE. I can't speak for other Celek owners but I started losing when McNabb came back and Celek stopped being an elite TE.
Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
It's more the O-Line, which was terrible vs. Oakland and shaky at times last night. Celek stays into block more when they play like that.
scrumptrulescent
Footballguy
That was the first Eagles game I was able to see this year. Nothing has changed with McNabb. No wonder why he has so few int's. His accuracy stinks.
NatronIsMean
Footballguy
Indeed. I can vividly remember a throw to Celek last night of this variety in fact. A rare look towards Celek... uncatchable lame duck throw.
What happened when Colb was in?!I'm going to ask the unthinkable. First, I'm a Donovan fan as a Chicago resident. He grew up here and I have friends that played against him. I'll always root for him. But still, did the Eagles offense NOT look better with Colb? And it wasn't a one-game wonder. It was multiple games. McNabb just has SUCH duds and throws so erratically at times...
Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
The O-Line played decent to well in the first four games, two of which were started by Kolb. The Carolina game was over in the second quarter, so the passing game pretty much shut down after that. You shouldn't be expecting Gates-like numbers from Celek every week. He's not at that talent level, and the Eagles spread the ball around.
LittlePhatty
Footballguy
Strength of Schedule says Washington hasn't allowed that many points to TEs this year. I'm guessing Celek was asked to block more. The Bears and the Falcons are good matchups for Celek, looking forward on the schedule.
Volleydog
Footballguy
Guys, big picture.
1 - As mentioned, the OLine has been terrible the past couple games. Rewatch last night's game for 2 things. First, how many times Celek stayed in to block. Second, on the plays where he blocked and released, how much time did McNabb have to find him as a receiver?
2 - The Eagles offense has been horribly out of synch the past 2 weeks. The Oakland game was just a flat tire. Last night was Reid/Marty screwing up drive after drive by insisting on Wildcatting every 2nd down play. The Wildcats all failed miserably, leaving 3rd and long (see point #1), that led to punts.
3 - Defenses are paying more attention to Celek. He's not getting the 6-8 yard curl & sit in the empty zone looks as much. He wasn't viewed as a primary receiving threat, so coverage went elsewhere. Now defenses are making sure there's at least got a guy in the vicinity. This will change game to game based on what the defense is trying to do.
4 - McNabb loves a reliable TE. Always has. Will always use him when available. If you have any doubts, you need only go back to the Arizona game in the playoffs.
Overall, it's a function of what boneheaded plays are called AND the defensive schemes they're up against. Right now heavy blitzing is the trend against them. Guess what? That keeps the TE in to pick up the LB/DB on the outside, and kills any chance of him being the hot read in many protection schemes.
1 - As mentioned, the OLine has been terrible the past couple games. Rewatch last night's game for 2 things. First, how many times Celek stayed in to block. Second, on the plays where he blocked and released, how much time did McNabb have to find him as a receiver?
2 - The Eagles offense has been horribly out of synch the past 2 weeks. The Oakland game was just a flat tire. Last night was Reid/Marty screwing up drive after drive by insisting on Wildcatting every 2nd down play. The Wildcats all failed miserably, leaving 3rd and long (see point #1), that led to punts.
3 - Defenses are paying more attention to Celek. He's not getting the 6-8 yard curl & sit in the empty zone looks as much. He wasn't viewed as a primary receiving threat, so coverage went elsewhere. Now defenses are making sure there's at least got a guy in the vicinity. This will change game to game based on what the defense is trying to do.
4 - McNabb loves a reliable TE. Always has. Will always use him when available. If you have any doubts, you need only go back to the Arizona game in the playoffs.
Overall, it's a function of what boneheaded plays are called AND the defensive schemes they're up against. Right now heavy blitzing is the trend against them. Guess what? That keeps the TE in to pick up the LB/DB on the outside, and kills any chance of him being the hot read in many protection schemes.
The big picture is that under Kolb, Celek is a 8-10 catch 80-100 yard guy, an elite TE who is Kolb's 1st or 2nd option, someone who will win matchups for you.
Under McNabb, Celek is a 3-5 catch 30 yard guy, who looks like McNabb's last option, a TE who will lose matchups for you.
Under McNabb, Celek is a 3-5 catch 30 yard guy, who looks like McNabb's last option, a TE who will lose matchups for you.
I guess the issue is, what reliable elite TE is going to be available for you in week 8 without overpaying? If you're not comfortable w/ Celek, by all means, make a play for Cooley's backup on the Skins, but other than him, I'd take Celek over the Fasano/Carlson/Boss/Pettigrew types that are probably sitting on your WW. TE isn't a make or break position on most fantasy teams- hell- it's not like Celek was at the level of Gonzo/Gates going into the season- you likely got him on the cheap and got an added boost from his production, but he can't be the sole reason for not being competitive from week to week.(edit: Westbrook is also hurt...again.)
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Volleydog
Footballguy
Seriously? Of course Kolb looked for Celek in those games. First, he's an inexperienced QB checking down. They weren't calling the deep pass plays because they didn't want the ball in the kid's hands as much. Guess what? Bench McNabb, play Kolb. As the season progresses, the play calling evolves and the intentional TE checkdowns go away.On top of that, look at the two games you're glorifying. 11 targets in the Saints blowout loss, and 9 against the woeful Chiefs who offered less resistance than the French. The Saints dropped coverage deep, AND WILLINGLY GAVE UP short passes to Celek. This would have been no different if McNabb were in the game. The Chiefs offered no pass rush and no linebackers dropping into the correct zones. This meant Celek pulled out his beach chair and read a book while waiting for the ball to arrive. You cannot honestly believe a 2 game sample set consisting of extreme matchup scenarios should be taken as a week in, week out indicator of how Celek would perform with a different QB.
NatronIsMean
Footballguy
Not super reassuring, but appreciated.
Dragon1952
Footballguy
McNabb couldn't have hit the broad side of a barn last night. Even the pass to Jackson wasn't very good, he just happened to be open by a mile and could sit there waiting for it. BTW, I think we saw two of the dumber QB/coach combos last night. The only reason the Eagles beat a pathetic team is because of a very good defense, and DeSean Jackson.
gethugefast1
Footballguy
Westy was injured and did not return with 7 minutes left in the 1st Quarter...all-pro vs raw rookie may have made the difference in the final score and eagles overall offensive performance.
Dought Man
Footballguy
This thread is a perfect example where people form an offbase opinion because "their guy" didnt score points on a given week. Something must be wrong with the QB, because my tight end didnt score last night!!!
Its as if you don't even watch the games. Celek was in to block much of the night. Also, it was clear that the Skins were trying to take away the short passing game over the middle and make McNabb go deep, or force them to run the ball. When they did go to the short passing game, they would throw the quick hitters to Maclin at the line of scrimmage and let him try to beat his man, because the defense was cheating up and pinching in on the middle of the field much of the night.
Different games call for different plans.
There are very few tight ends in history who you can count on for production week in and week out...let alone someone like Celek, who isn't exactly Tony Gonzalez just yet.
Its as if you don't even watch the games. Celek was in to block much of the night. Also, it was clear that the Skins were trying to take away the short passing game over the middle and make McNabb go deep, or force them to run the ball. When they did go to the short passing game, they would throw the quick hitters to Maclin at the line of scrimmage and let him try to beat his man, because the defense was cheating up and pinching in on the middle of the field much of the night.
Different games call for different plans.
There are very few tight ends in history who you can count on for production week in and week out...let alone someone like Celek, who isn't exactly Tony Gonzalez just yet.
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glock
"Don't grumble, give a whistle!"
Exactly. Celek is not the week to week start that he was.
Celek was a big part of the offense there for awhile.....upcoming Eagle opponents recognized that and make adjustments to try and account for him.....now it up to th Eagles to find other ways to get him the ball if they want him to be a bigger part of the offense going forward........
Dragon1952
Footballguy
I'm not sure what Westy has to do with McNabb bouncing passes at the feet of wide open receivers, or throwing behind receivers.Westy was injured and did not return with 7 minutes left in the 1st Quarter...all-pro vs raw rookie may have made the difference in the final score and eagles overall offensive performance.
packersfan
Footballguy
Celek put up 4-75-0 last week with McNabb at QB. So far this season, he's had five good to great games with McNabb or Kolb at QB. Last night's game sucked for Celek owners. No doubt about that. But I'm not sure that his first poor game of the season is enough evidence at this time to indicate he's no longer a strong starting option going forward.
Maroney=Sped
Footballguy
Technically McNabb is killing the grass and worms in front of Celek.
werdnoynek
Footballguy
i think people need to remove their fingers from the panic button and see what happens this week... i've got a feeling we're going to see a 70+ 1 td+ game vs the giants.
they've given up decent numbers to TE's every game this season...
cooley scored against them. (7rec/68yards 1td)
witten scored against them. (5rec/33yards 1td)
sean ryan scored against them. (who is sean ryan anyway??) (5rec/58yards 1td)
z.miller 60+ yards against them. (4rec/69yards)
shockey scored against them. (4rec/37yards 1td)
do the cardinals even have a te?
as you can see te's have had decent numbers against them this season. i'd wait before pressing that button... but thats just me.
they've given up decent numbers to TE's every game this season...
cooley scored against them. (7rec/68yards 1td)
witten scored against them. (5rec/33yards 1td)
sean ryan scored against them. (who is sean ryan anyway??) (5rec/58yards 1td)
z.miller 60+ yards against them. (4rec/69yards)
shockey scored against them. (4rec/37yards 1td)
do the cardinals even have a te?
as you can see te's have had decent numbers against them this season. i'd wait before pressing that button... but thats just me.
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Fantasy Bum
Footballguy
Vicktimized
Footballguy
McNabb's streaky. Last year's playoffs indicate he has no problem finding Brent Celek. I wouldn't panic.
I got a good chuckle out of this. This is exactly why I put McNabb on my Do Not Draft list. I had him a couple of years ago and he frustrated the sh_t out of me. For a so-called "elite" QB, when he is off he is shockingly inaccurate. That said, I don't think I'd be panicking quite yet if I was a Celek owner, but I'd definitely be keeping my eyes open to other possible TE options should they arise.
B-Deep
Footballguy
C'mon man!
WE HAD A DEAL!!!
NatronIsMean
Footballguy
McNabb isn't a dirtball. He just throws them.I'm not surprised you would defend McNabb considering your chosen screen name, but your arguments are oversimplified generalizations.CLAIM #1: No deep pass plays for Kolb
Eagles vs. Saints: 4th play of Eagles opening drive, Kolb deep pass to Jackson for a 71 yard TD, tying the game 7-7.
http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/multimed...amp;PLAY_CLIP=Y
Eagles vs. Chiefs: Kolb threw another deep pass to Jackson for 40+ yards, and hit Jackson on a short pass which Jackson ran for a long TD.
http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/multimed...amp;PLAY_CLIP=Y
CLAIM #2: extreme matchup scenarios favorable for Kolb (but not McNabb)
Kolb faced the Saints and the Chiefs.
McNabb faced the Panthers, Bucs, Raiders, and Redskins.
The Eagles schedule has been extremely favorable so far and Kolb has faced the strongest opponent, the Saints.
CLAIM #3: can't use 2 game sample size to compare how Celek would fare under different QBs
What do you want me to do then as a Celek owner? Wait more games to prove that I'm wrong? There are only 7 games left before the playoffs in my leagues, I don't have time to wait to find out that Celek isn't cutting it anymore. I need a contingency plan NOW (which is what the OP is hinting at).
Here are the numbers for this year:
vs. Panthers: 4 targets from McNabb, 3 targets from Kolb
vs. Saints: 11 targets from Kolb
vs. Chiefs: 9 targets from Kolb
vs. Bucs: 5 targets from McNabb
vs. Raiders: 7 targets from McNabb
vs. Redskins: 4 targets from McNabb, 1 target from Vick (one of Celek's 3 receptions came from Vick)
4-5 targets a game from McNabb is not enough if I have to go up against guys like Owen Daniels or Vernon Davis or even Heath Miller.
Even if I didn't have Celek, I believe RIGHT NOW Kolb is better than McNabb. McNabb is living off his reputation.
werdnoynek
Footballguy
Too late to tell you not to panic, good luck trying to find a TE1 to replace him... he's going to be putting up Daniels/Davis/Miller numbers this week on imo...
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certificate
Footballguy
McNabb just hit Celek from the 8 for a TD, got called back on a hold, Then he hit him again from the 18 for a TD on 3rd down.
McNabb has shown an affinity for TEs in the redzone throughout his career, I don't think he'll continue to "kill Celek"
McNabb has shown an affinity for TEs in the redzone throughout his career, I don't think he'll continue to "kill Celek"
TommyGilmore
Footballguy
My opponent did.
eurotrashman
Footballguy
These types of threads are priceless.
LOL
LOL
packersfan
Footballguy
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Yep, facts are a funny thing, aren't they? In five games with McNabb: 21-239-2 (with 30 targets - 6 per game)In two games without McNabb: 16-208-1 (with 20 targets - 10 per game)It was, however, nice to see McNabb going to Celek early yesterday, especially after throwing a TD to him after one to him had just been called back on a penalty. So maybe there is hope.
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Now add the playoffs from last year. Still funny?
