Megyn Kelly (1 Viewer)

[NCCommish]

The thing is she went down this road a couple of years ago and knows very well why it's racist. This isn't a new topic for her at all. Then given her other hysterical issues with race, like the Santa Claus debacle, she just didn't get a pass. She couldn't find one person of color for her panel? NBC was already taking a risk and paying her over 20 million a year. They had to cancel one of her shows already and she has crapph ratings on her morning show. Not to mention she has been butting heads with management especially her boss in the news division. So it's been a question of when not if for awhile and doing it now would sure make PR sense.  Rumors are she is negotiating an exit as she has time left on her contract.

 

[Joe Bryant]

This is one of those times where in a perfect world, I wish people could slow down and talk for a minute. And it's also where words and definitions struggle.

Here's the thing as I see it: Given our nation's history and the wrongs and hurtful things done to black people in this way, a white person putting on makeup to make one's face the color of a black person's face is wrong. Full stop.

Even if it's with good intentions. It just is hurtful and wrong. It may not feel hurtful to you. But this is bigger than just you. And that's an important point. 

The idea that a 10-year-old white little girl that loves tennis and sees Serena Williams as her hero is a good thing. And if she wants to "be" Serena Williams for a party, it's at the base, a good thing if the child truly wants to emulate her hero and isn't letting skin color get in the way. One hope for equality is skin color becomes less a factor in how we choose our heroes. 

But back to the start, a white person putting on makeup to make their face the color of a black person's is wrong.

This is where definitions and words struggle. In the case of the little girl and Serena Williams, calling this girl "racist", the same word one uses for a white supremacist, maybe seems too strong a word. It seems to me, "wrong" or "hurtful" might be more accurate words to describe the girl. 

And no it does not "work both ways" and yes, you can call that a "double standard". That's just how it is. 

This isn't "white guilt". It's white people realizing not everyone's had their experience. And being respectful for those people. And let's be real, the "sacrifice" that a white little girl needs to pick a different person to be at the party isn't much of a sacrifice. And I don't think it's "political correctness", whatever that is. Sometimes, I think what people call "political correctness" is actually just being cool. 

My hope is people will slow down a second and talk. If the goal is a better understanding, it feels like we all need to try to listen better. And be cooler to each other. 

 

[eoMMan]

But what if one is simply portraying a character from TV with absolutely no ill will intended?  I don't think it's really fair to automatically call this person a racist.  Sure, it's a bad choice in today's world but racist is a bit much, imo. 

For example, Julianne Hough (the dancer/actor) got blasted a few years ago for wearing black face when she dressed up as "Crazy Eyes" from Orange Is The New Black.

 

[Henry Ford]

This is one of those times where in a perfect world, I wish people could slow down and talk for a minute. And it's also where words and definitions struggle.

Here's the thing as I see it: Given our nation's history and the wrongs and hurtful things done to black people in this way, a white person putting on makeup to make one's face the color of a black person's face is wrong. Full stop.

Even if it's with good intentions. It just is hurtful and wrong. It may not feel hurtful to you. But this is bigger than just you. And that's an important point. 

The idea that a 10-year-old white little girl that loves tennis and sees Serena Williams as her hero is a good thing. And if she wants to "be" Serena Williams for a party, it's at the base, a good thing if the child truly wants to emulate her hero and isn't letting skin color get in the way. One hope for equality is skin color becomes less a factor in how we choose our heroes. 

But back to the start, a white person putting on makeup to make their face the color of a black person's is wrong.

This is where definitions and words struggle. In the case of the little girl and Serena Williams, calling this girl "racist", the same word one uses for a white supremacist, maybe seems too strong a word. It seems to me, "wrong" or "hurtful" might be more accurate words to describe the girl. 

And no it does not "work both ways" and yes, you can call that a "double standard". That's just how it is. 

This isn't "white guilt". It's white people realizing not everyone's had their experience. And being respectful for those people. And let's be real, the "sacrifice" that a white little girl needs to pick a different person to be at the party isn't much of a sacrifice. And I don't think it's "political correctness", whatever that is. Sometimes, I think what people call "political correctness" is actually just being cool. 

My hope is people will slow down a second and talk. If the goal is a better understanding, it feels like we all need to try to listen better. And be cooler to each other. 

If you don't think it's racist to dress up like Diana Ross in blackface, there's a pretty good chance you are either kind of "lower case 'r' racist" (ignorant of a subject that black people don't have the luxury of being ignorant about, but when you learn about it you'll probably change your mind) or kind of "upper case 'R' Racist" (you know all about the issues, but don't care, or don't have any interest in learning because black people shouldn't be able to steer the conversation about something just because it's horribly offensive to them or you like offending black people.)

You're misinformed on the issue, in my opinion.  There's a wealth of information out there, especially right now, that can be very helpful in understanding why this falls under "blackface."    

This is a reasonable start.

I agree.  And the article I linked is pretty close to a long discussion on your bolded points.  But I especially think there's a really important distinction between 'racist' and 'Racist' we need to be making.

 

[Henry Ford]

But what if one is simply portraying a character from TV with absolutely no ill will intended?  I don't think it's really fair to automatically call this person a racist.  Sure, it's a bad choice in today's world but racist is a bit much, imo. 

For example, Julianne Hough (the dancer/actor) got blasted a few years ago for wearing black face when she dressed up as "Crazy Eyes" from Orange Is The New Black.

That's specifically shown as an example in the Vox article I linked.  Having good intentions doesn't making something not racist.  It's a good example of being able to be ignorant about a big issue solely because it doesn't affect you, which is a big part of what we're talking about when we talk about 'white privilege.'

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

This is one of those times where in a perfect world, I wish people could slow down and talk for a minute. And it's also where words and definitions struggle.

Here's the thing as I see it: Given our nation's history and the wrongs and hurtful things done to black people in this way, a white person putting on makeup to make one's face the color of a black person's face is wrong. Full stop.

Even if it's with good intentions. It just is hurtful and wrong. It may not feel hurtful to you. But this is bigger than just you. And that's an important point. 

The idea that a 10-year-old white little girl that loves tennis and sees Serena Williams as her hero is a good thing. And if she wants to "be" Serena Williams for a party, it's at the base, a good thing if the child truly wants to emulate her hero and isn't letting skin color get in the way. One hope for equality is skin color becomes less a factor in how we choose our heroes. 

But back to the start, a white person putting on makeup to make their face the color of a black person's is wrong.

This is where definitions and words struggle. In the case of the little girl and Serena Williams, calling this girl "racist", the same word one uses for a white supremacist, maybe seems too strong a word. It seems to me, "wrong" or "hurtful" might be more accurate words to describe the girl. 

And no it does not "work both ways" and yes, you can call that a "double standard". That's just how it is. 

This isn't "white guilt". It's white people realizing not everyone's had their experience. And being respectful for those people. And let's be real, the "sacrifice" that a white little girl needs to pick a different person to be at the party isn't much of a sacrifice. And I don't think it's "political correctness", whatever that is. Sometimes, I think what people call "political correctness" is actually just being cool. 

My hope is people will slow down a second and talk. If the goal is a better understanding, it feels like we all need to try to listen better. And be cooler to each other. 

It seems to me ill-informed or ill-considered might be more apt as we are talking about a very young person. 

 

[[scooter]]

You're misinterpreting the concept of blackface, IMO. Blackface is all about caricature. Dressing up as Diana Ross or Tiger Woods or Lebron James is not, in itself, caricature.

You're misinformed on the issue, in my opinion.  There's a wealth of information out there, especially right now, that can be very helpful in understanding why this falls under "blackface."    

This is a reasonable start.

The article says "Here's why blackface is wrong".

The article doesn't say "Here's why a tasteful application of dark makeup in a genuine homage is still considered to be blackface". 

The article includes several pictures which illustrate what it considers to be blackface. All of the pictures are blatant racial caricatures. None of the pictures show people who are simply wearing darker makeup.

Let me illustrate my point this way: is this blackface? Or how about this?

 

[Hilts]

Reminder: Race is not a costume.

 

[eoMMan]

That's specifically shown as an example in the Vox article I linked.  Having good intentions doesn't making something not racist.  It's a good example of being able to be ignorant about a big issue solely because it doesn't affect you, which is a big part of what we're talking about when we talk about 'white privilege.'

But, as your article talks about, the negativity surrounding blackface stems from the days of slavery.  Do we ever get past that?  We have in other areas, that's for sure.  Many of our founding fathers were huge racists and owned many slaves (Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin....who eventually freed his slaves, George Washington, etc.).  Yet, we look past that and view them as great Americans.

And fwiw, I would never wear blackface nor would I ever encourage anyone too.  But I think the outrage is a bit much in today's world.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Let me illustrate my point this way: is this blackface? Or how about this?




 

Those are fair questions to ask. In both cases, I'd say they're wrong. Are they horribly wrong? Probably not. But still something I'd avoid. 

And again, I'd ask, "what is the cost?". If the comedy person says, "You know, let's pick another skit idea than the white woman as Oprah". Is that really that big a thing to ask? It doesn't seem like it is to me. 

 

[Henry Ford]

The article says "Here's why blackface is wrong".

The article doesn't say "Here's why a tasteful application of dark makeup in a genuine homage is still considered to be blackface". 

The article includes several pictures which illustrate what it considers to be blackface. All of the pictures are blatant racial caricatures. None of the pictures show people who are simply wearing darker makeup.

Let me illustrate my point this way: is this blackface? Or how about this?

No.  And yes.

 

[Henry Ford]

And the reason "no" is the answer is because Maya Rudolph isn't white.  Her mother was black.

Edit:  This is Maya Rudolph's mom.

 

[[scooter]]

Let me illustrate my point this way: is this blackface? Or how about this?

Those are fair questions to ask. In both cases, I'd say they're wrong. Are they horribly wrong? Probably not. But still something I'd avoid. 

And again, I'd ask, "what is the cost?". If the comedy person says, "You know, let's pick another skit idea than the white woman as Oprah". Is that really that big a thing to ask? It doesn't seem like it is to me. 

I dunno, it seems to me that society would be a whole lot better if we got to a point where a white person could dress as a black person and everyone in every race just said, "That's funny."

 

[Henry Ford]

Those are fair questions to ask. In both cases, I'd say they're wrong. Are they horribly wrong? Probably not. But still something I'd avoid. 

And again, I'd ask, "what is the cost?". If the comedy person says, "You know, let's pick another skit idea than the white woman as Oprah". Is that really that big a thing to ask? It doesn't seem like it is to me. 

Not what happened.

 

[[scooter]]

The article says "Here's why blackface is wrong".

The article doesn't say "Here's why a tasteful application of dark makeup in a genuine homage is still considered to be blackface". 

The article includes several pictures which illustrate what it considers to be blackface. All of the pictures are blatant racial caricatures. None of the pictures show people who are simply wearing darker makeup.

Let me illustrate my point this way: is this blackface? Or how about this?

No.  And yes.

Why do you think the first picture isn't blackface?

 

[Henry Ford]

I dunno, it seems to me that society would be a whole lot better if we got to a point where a white person could dress as a black person and everyone in every race just said, "That's funny."

Being black for "just for a joke" is part of why it's racist.

 

[Henry Ford]

Why do you think the first picture isn't blackface?

Because Maya Rudolph isn't white?

 

[Sheriff Bart]

Scientology has nothing on the right wing when it comes to the hatred for someone that leaves their collective. 

 

[ren hoek]

What did she say? Article only hints at it.

Buried way too deep in the article, it says 

“During the offending segment on Tuesday, Kelly said it was OK when she was growing up for white people to dress up as black characters, and she spoke out against a controversy that erupted last year over a reality star who portrayed Diana Ross.

"But what is racist?" Kelly asked. "Because you do get in trouble if you are a white person who puts on blackface on Halloween, or a black person who puts on whiteface for Halloween. Back when I was a kid that was OK, as long as you were dressing up as, like, a character."

Later in the day, Kelly said sorry to her colleagues in an email: "Today is one of those days where listening carefully to other points of view, including from friends and colleagues, is leading me to rethink my own views."

It was a pretty dumb comment, but I think people are over-reacting here.  

 

[Hilts]

I dunno, it seems to me that society would be a whole lot better if we got to a point where a white person could dress as a black person and everyone in every race just said, "That's funny."

I believe Always Sunny has pulled this off. 

 

[[scooter]]

And the reason "no" is the answer is because Maya Rudolph isn't white.  Her mother was black.

Edit:  This is Maya Rudolph's mom.

Her father is white. She puts on dark makeup to make herself look more like Oprah.

It's weird that you describe an act as racist and then state that it's not racist when certain people do it. That's....kind of racist.

 

[[scooter]]

I dunno, it seems to me that society would be a whole lot better if we got to a point where a white person could dress as a black person and everyone in every race just said, "That's funny."

Being black for "just for a joke" is part of why it's racist.

Why are you assuming that a person dressing as Diana Ross is doing it "just for a joke"? You're reading things into a person's motivation.

 

[Henry Ford]

Her father is white. She puts on dark makeup to make herself look more like Oprah.

It's weird that you describe an act as racist and then state that it's not racist when certain people do it. That's....kind of racist.

When the current working definition of blackface is a white person darkening his or her skin to portray a black person, it does create that dynamic.  And to see it as racist is to simply dismiss everything I, and many other people, have been trying to explain to you about what racism is in this context.

You have every right to refuse to consider the perspectives of other people.  And you have the privilege of being able to make that happen.  But I'm not arguing with you over this, I'm trying to explain something to you.

 

[GROOT]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRZN7IzvCVs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOCgXr4lrco

Dave Chapelle...

Is this out of bounds ?

 

[Henry Ford]

Why are you assuming that a person dressing as Diana Ross is doing it "just for a joke"? You're reading things into a person's motivation.

I didn't.  I was reacting to a specific situation you hoped would exist.  In which people would say "that's funny."

 

[Hilts]

Her father is white. She puts on dark makeup to make herself look more like Oprah.

It's weird that you describe an act as racist and then state that it's not racist when certain people do it. That's....kind of racist.

This whole exchange is reminding me of that scene in Clerks 2.

 

[Henry Ford]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRZN7IzvCVs

Is this out of bounds =?

That's a really interesting question.  I honestly would put it into the same category as the Zulu parade in New Orleans - he's using "whiteface" as a political satire statement the same way that parade uses "blackface" (worn mostly by black riders, but also white riders) as a political satire statement, and I think it dances on a very thin line.  

 

[Henry Ford]

The major difference of course being that there wasn't a massive cultural effort to ridicule white people throughout the U.S. using whiteface for centuries.

 

[Epic Problem]

The major difference of course being that there wasn't a massive cultural effort to ridicule white people throughout the U.S. using whiteface for centuries.

That's not what clowns are?

 

[Henry Ford]

That's not what clowns are?

The serial killer ones are, obviously, but not most.

 

[Ghost Rider]

But, as your article talks about, the negativity surrounding blackface stems from the days of slavery.  Do we ever get past that?  We have in other areas, that's for sure.  Many of our founding fathers were huge racists and owned many slaves (Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin....who eventually freed his slaves, George Washington, etc.).  Yet, we look past that and view them as great Americans.

And fwiw, I would never wear blackface nor would I ever encourage anyone too.  But I think the outrage is a bit much in today's world.

I agree with this.  That said, it was dumb for someone who has been in the media as long as Kelly has to say what she did. 

Ultimately, while she got paid handsomely by NBC, her long term prospects as a journalist/TV talking head were dead in the water the second she asked Trump that (more than fair) question.  Once he pushed back and went after her, all of his hardcore supporters decided they hated her and she lost a good part of the right, and most of the left was never going to accept her after years of working at Fox News, so she found herself in no man's land.  

 

[[scooter]]

Her father is white. She puts on dark makeup to make herself look more like Oprah.

It's weird that you describe an act as racist and then state that it's not racist when certain people do it. That's....kind of racist.

When the current working definition of blackface is a white person darkening his or her skin to portray a black person, it does create that dynamic. 

Excuse me, what "working definition" are you talking about? Because it seems to me that you just made it up to suit your argument.

For example, here's Wikipedia's definition of blackface ("predominantly non-black performers").

Here's Dictionary.com (no mention of race at all).

Here's Merriam Webster (again, no mention of race).

The facts don't support your made-up definition.

"Blackface" is about the portrayal, NOT about the skin color of the person doing it. The fact that you keep insisting that it can ONLY apply to people who are 100% white is, quite honestly, weird. I don't think you're racist, but you're taking a position that is kind of condescending and paternalistic towards black people (as if only YOU get to define what blackface is, who gets or doesn't get to do it, and how blacks should feel about it).

The fact that you could look at two performers who wore darker makeup and decided that one of them was racist and one of them wasn't, based solely on what you knew about the ethnic heritage of the two performers, is just a little bit ignorant.

 

[Doug B]

She had Roland Martin on the day after and he gave her a history lesson about blackface

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3lnYPfBFzg&t=186s

What the hell does a bass fisherman know about race.

(First thing I thought was the Laugh-In guy  )

 

[Rove!]

Let me illustrate my point this way: is this blackface? Or how about this?

This is pretty offensive

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aPbefau2Zc

 

[John Bender]

Truly dont think it was egregious at all. Feels like NBC was looking for a reason to dump here and she gave it to them.

 

[Shula-holic]

Even as a white guy living in the South, I know that someone wearing blackface is just not something that should be done.  I get what she's saying.  But I have two daughters and let's say one did idolize Serena Williams, I'd never let them wear makeup to try and be or look like her, and I'd try to explain why to them.  I'm pretty much the least PC person there is, but to me that's a pretty obvious line when you're trying to at least be considerate of other people's feelings and experiences.  There's just no real reason to do it.  Again, I get what she's doing is just expressing an opinion.  She also had to know she works for NBC and I think she should have known this would be the reaction of that company given their normal line on things.

 

[[scooter]]

And the reason "no" is the answer is because Maya Rudolph isn't white.  Her mother was black.

BTW, Maya Rudolph's mother was 1/4 white. At what point does your definition of "a white person darkening their skin" come into play for you to consider it blackface?

 

[Doug B]

All I can say, [scooter], is that the reaction to blackface or skin-darkening is not a coldly logical thing. It's not something you can nail down with mathematical precision, reducing it down to equations on a whiteboard.

The wrongness of blackface is, indeed, a culturally arbitrary thing. It's an artifact of American culture in particular and Western culture more generally (and less strongly). I think you've picked up on that arbitrariness, and it might give the logical side of your brain some problems. Just keep in mind that it doesn't come down to logic.

Here's something of a mind-bender, at least to me: it's OK for Maya Rudolph to dress as Oprah and use skin-darkening to get into character. It would probably only be OK for one of Rudolph's four daughters (with her husband, director Paul Thomas Anderson) to do the same thing.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

You can take her out of Fox, but you can't take the Fox out of her.

On days I work at home and have NBC on in background, I switch quickly to NPR.  She likes to hear herself talk, a lot.

She hosts a talk show

 

[JIslander]

She hosts a talk show

Right, I prefer the ones that, you know, actually let their guests talk.

 

[Jackstraw]

Full disclosure: I made my face black as part of a Bob Marley Halloween costume in approximately 1985. I unpainted my face about 15 minutes later after my first run in with some black folks. 15 years old. 

Hint: They are really not that fond of it. Although they were pretty cool after they talked to me about it and I apologized immediately and said I would take it off.  

 

[FreeBaGeL]

When the current working definition of blackface is a white person darkening his or her skin to portray a black person, it does create that dynamic.  And to see it as racist is to simply dismiss everything I, and many other people, have been trying to explain to you about what racism is in this context.

You have every right to refuse to consider the perspectives of other people.  And you have the privilege of being able to make that happen.  But I'm not arguing with you over this, I'm trying to explain something to you.

What about Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder? 

 

[E Street Brat]

This is the type of discussion Megyn was looking for. Are we all racists for even talking about it?  

Why is Kelly a racist for talking about "Blackface" but not the "housewife" or the "Always Sunny cast" who wore the "blackface"

Should you stop a white child from wearing This Holloween Costume?  

 

[Thunderlips]

What she said was stupid, but I didn’t think it was that bad.  She started by saying when she was young people blacked their face if they wanted to be a character. Me, for, exmaple, I was a fly one year and used black makeup.  Then she said if a white kid wanted to be Diana Ross, why not - who doesn’t love Diana Ross...?  (She said). It didn’t come from an evil place IMO.  Just ignorant.  

Edit: Granted, if my daughter wanted to dress as Diana Ross, I’d say no - that #### is racist.  

I don't need to wear blackface to be Mr. T.  I pity the fool who thinks otherwise. 

 

[Doug B]

What about Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder? 

This falls under the "cannot be reduced to logic" banner. This Reddit thread is an interesting read (warning: mildly NSFW text, no images). But boiled down: Any one acceptable instance of blackface does not sanction or excuse any other instance of blackface.

 

[Thunderlips]

If you dress up as Diana Ross and decide to exaggerate her skin color and make her lips look bigger and make your eyes look whiter.....then yeah, that's "blackface" and it's racist.

If you dress up as Diana Ross and you simply put on darker makeup to make yourself look more like her....then no, it's not blackface and it's not racist.

I don't expect a black dude to make his face white if he wants to go as Batman or Superman though.  

 

[Doug B]

I don't need to wear blackface to be Mr. T.  I pity the fool who thinks otherwise. 

Well, the Hulkster is a pretty tan guy already  

 

[Doug B]

Full disclosure: I made my face black as part of a Bob Marley Halloween costume in approximately 1985. I unpainted my face about 15 minutes later after my first run in with some black folks. 15 years old. 

Hint: They are really not that fond of it. Although they were pretty cool after they talked to me about it and I apologized immediately and said I would take it off.  

This makes me curious: As we know, black dreadlocks are easy to find in costume shops around Halloween. Some even have a Rastafarian tam attached. Would you have been OK going as Bob Marley if you had just stuck with clothes, a hat, and a dreadlocks wig?

 

[T J]

Dressing up as Diana Ross in blackface is definitely racist.

Wrong. There are those, me being one, that does not feel it is definitely racist. What about the show Neighbors? Black-ish? Who even cares about this stuff? I am so sick of people getting worked up over the stupidest stuff. BFD a white person went blackface for a Halloween costume. Whoopee. Not racist.  It's this stuff right here that is the biggest divide I our country. Liberals who have their feelings hurt at every turn, and those who don't. It's really that simple. It isn't racism to throw a jab at a person's race. 

We clearly have different definitions of racism and before you break out the Webster's, there is the literal and then there is the practical application of the word. From a practical standpoint, I don't see racism in dressing blackface. I consider it a who cares. If a black guy wanted to dress KKK, who cares. A muslin wanted to dress as a rabbi, who cares. People's feelings get hurt far too easily, and I think in large part because the media tells them to, and it sucks for America. I genuinely believe every word I just wrote. No schtick. 

 

[tonydead]

I don't expect a black dude to make his face white if he wants to go as Batman or Superman though.  

What about Michael Jackson?