Mentoring (1 Viewer)

[3quinox]

I know there has been a lot of players that have learned from great talents while sitting on the bench waiting for their turn. How important/how much impact do you think it has?

Example I would say would be Aaron Rodgers behind Favre, Marlon brown learning from Steve Smith, michael vick helping foles etc.

 

[Gawain]

michael vick helping foles etc.

 

[biju]

I know there has been a lot of players that have learned from great talents while sitting on the bench waiting for their turn. How important/how much impact do you think it has?

Example I would say would be Aaron Rodgers behind Favre, Marlon brown learning from Steve Smith, michael vick helping foles etc.

I think it helps more when there is a mental aspect to the game and you get to watch how a successful person approaches, studies, and practices. As a counter-example, I doubt there is much advantage to it for an RB. But for QBs and to an extent WRs as well, I think it makes a difference. How much? Not sure, but I think it's better than being thrown right into the fire.

 

[Joe Bryant]

michael vick helping foles etc.

Are you saying Vick didn't help Foles?

J

 

[BigSteelThrill]

michael vick helping foles etc.

Are you saying Vick didn't help Foles?

J

Maybe in a few small ways, but not like a true "mentor" type of fashion.

 

[Donnybrook]

Favre mentorship was second to none. http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/32579374.html

When Rodgers arrived, Favre made no bones about refusing to be a mentor to him, stating in an interview that it wasn’t his job. Nobody had done it for him, and besides, Favre’s No. 1 responsibility was to win games.

Rodgers had to accept that, but it didn’t mean he wasn’t going to watch Favre.

“The best way to describe it was we were teammates the first year,” Rodgers said. “It was a very business relationship. But I was kind of in his hip pocket. My biggest thing was if we’re not going to be friends yet, which is fine, I’m still going to be in his hip pocket until he tells me to get lost.

“So I’d stick my head in there when he’s talking in the huddle and lean in and listen to what he’s saying and listen to him in practice. I’d watch him like a hawk. This guy is one of the greatest quarterbacks to every play, so I better figure out what he’s doing.”

 

[ZWK]

I suspect that it has only a very weak effect. If you're trying to predict how good Marlon Brown will be, the fact that he has Steve Smith to learn from should have almost no impact on your prediction.

A young player mostly doesn't need to learn the game from the guy who is ahead of him on the depth chart because he has coaches to learn from, film to watch, offseason instructors, etc. Steve Smith obviously knows the craft of being a WR extremely well, but does he know it better than Bobby Engram (the Ravens' WR coach)? Does he know how to teach it as well as Engram does? Is he going to put as much time and attention into observing what Brown does and giving him feedback and tips?

Not every team has a Steve Smith to mentor its younger receivers, but every team does have a Bobby Engram (or multiple Bobby Engrams) whose job it is to train the team's wide receivers. So also having a Steve Smith on the team typically isn't going to make much difference.

 

[Gawain]

michael vick helping foles etc.

Are you saying Vick didn't help Foles?

J

I'm saying that the mentor stuff in football is a lot different than in baseball/basketball where guys are on guaranteed contracts. Incidences of mentorship are rare because guys' jobs are on the line in a way you don't see in baseball or basketball.

I also don't think that Foles is a better QB now from sitting behind Vick as opposed to some other quarterback. I'd lean to the time with the coaching staff and familiarity with the NFL. While Foles paid Vick lip service, what did Vick really teach him? How to get sacked?

"I've learned a lot from him and the guy's a tough dude," Foles said. "One of the toughest guys I've ever seen. He gets hit, he gets right back up. He gets hit, he gets right back up and he keeps firing."

 

[loose circuits]

michael vick helping foles etc.

Are you saying Vick didn't help Foles?

J

I'm saying that the mentor stuff in football is a lot different than in baseball/basketball where guys are on guaranteed contracts. Incidences of mentorship are rare because guys' jobs are on the line in a way you don't see in baseball or basketball.

I also don't think that Foles is a better QB now from sitting behind Vick as opposed to some other quarterback. I'd lean to the time with the coaching staff and familiarity with the NFL. While Foles paid Vick lip service, what did Vick really teach him? How to get sacked?

"I've learned a lot from him and the guy's a tough dude," Foles said. "One of the toughest guys I've ever seen. He gets hit, he gets right back up. He gets hit, he gets right back up and he keeps firing."

where do you get your information? I've heard many stories of guys helping each other out and putting the money aside. They are still human beings l, teammates, and co-workers. For the most part, the NFL has good dudes on teams especially the guys that have longevity.Having said all that and posting in the Rogers thread- what a great thing it is for guys like him to watch real pro's like Reggie Wayne go about their business

 

[loose circuits]

Was it Matt Millen who was deactivated for a playoff game after leading his team in tackles because he was old/slow and they needed to prepare for a faster offense? He spent the whole game as the biggest cheerleader/coach there was. A lot of times these dudes put their pride aside to focus on the team aspect of it

 

[3quinox]

I know there has been a lot of players that have learned from great talents while sitting on the bench waiting for their turn. How important/how much impact do you think it has?

Example I would say would be Aaron Rodgers behind Favre, Marlon brown learning from Steve Smith, michael vick helping foles etc.

I think this is a good question ( despite some of the responses that you've gotten in return. I am always amused at folks who say nothing but good things about FBGs and how the site has helped them win their leagues and win money, then proceed to behave in a way to drive off participation and subscribers.) in general.

From a team standpoint, I think you'll find, in the NFL, that as competition, there will tend to be a very neutral relationship between players at the same coveted positions. The guy you are helping directly, you are really giving him more knowledge and a larger skill set to take away your job. I think the nature of the NBA and MLB might be more forgiving, as they have stronger players unions and guaranteed contracts.

It's generally accepted around the league that Brett Favre went out of his way to extend his open hostility towards Aaron Rodgers. IIRC, it got to a point, where internally, some of the coaches reached out to Steve Young to talk to and help Rodgers understand how to survive as a high profile backup to legendary starter. I've personally heard some really ugly things that Favre said and did, and only see Favre's last season, limping in turmoil, injury and scandal, and with Rodgers winning a ring, to be a form of karma.

I think both situations are rare though, someone who is extremely invested in your career who is also your positional competition and someone who is openly hostile to the point where others will intervene.

I think where you will find the situation more likely would be Tony Richardson, on the back end of his career, older, and clearly just trying to hang onto the fringes of a roster, and realizing the fullback position was generally being phased out in most NFL offenses, who spent some time with the Jets and was seen as a positive force in John Connors early development. I think though you can't write that up to altruism, lots of veteran players on the edge of their careers realize coaching might be a future opportunity and want to show existing coaches and staff and front office personnel that they have the humility and ability to teach and handle younger players. I think this is probably the most likely scenario for a veteran player, already on the roster bubble, to reach out and help a young player despite the short term disincentive ( albeit with a potential long term upside)

Where I think you'll see more cause for increased development in younger players roots from

1) Improved and increased training opportunities in general at the youth level. Like I said before, when I lived in Texas for a while, the sheer volume of off season football camps and training opportunities was pretty impressive. High school QB1s in football factory areas could have easily been to a dozen specified training camps or programs outside of the traditional high school system.

2) Again, and I feel I'm one of the few people to cite this, the generational shift to having players now reaching the pro level who grew up in a booming video game culture. The degree and complexity of many of the current video game football simulations is staggering. There are kids who can't read but can decipher a Cover 2 in Madden football. And it applies to all roots of the game - roster management, injury management, substitutions, using the clock in 2 minute situations, running a hurry up offense, learning to read a fluid real time defense. These video games are essentially daily simulations that offer all kinds of scenarios and circumstances that build up a prospects arsenal of information about the game. As computer AI improves and becomes more realistic, it fosters a very real training scenario for those even at the youth football level. ( Again, these are the type of topics for articles that I feel Chase Stuart should be writing. )

3) High end training centers like the IMG Academy often bridge a players development from post draft to before training camp and sometimes during a players "offseason" away from the team. The speed of information and improved technology makes cataloging and watching film much easier than in the past. And given brands and sponsors trying to embed themselves early with athletes for endorsement purposes, the rise of brand specific training centers and academies are growing. Chris Weinke was not a good NFL QB1, but his experiences in a system not designed for the transition from college to pro helped him develop his program at IMG, where he made his mark being instrumental in helping to develop guys like Cam Newton. Making them full fledged Top 5 guys? Maybe not that, but helping with the transition points and acclimating to speed of the game.

The game has changed from players needing another job in the off season to help pay the bills. The job is now a year round full time investment for these players. There really is no true off season for these guys anymore. I would even wager that the current football system in place, from youth football in football factory environments to the cut throat Division 1 college ball to the pros, is more immersivee than even someone desiring a career as a physician in this country.

IMHO, I think when you hear about veteran players who are seen as positive forces in their locker room, I think it's more of a social dynamic where some Alpha Male players are able to control the tone and pace and temperament of their fellow players. Someone like Fred Jackson in Buffalo, who is beloved by his own team and coaches and respected around the league, I'm not sure he's in there every day with CJ Spiller, but I think his benefit is helping to foster a controlled positive environment for his team mates to thrive. Eddie DeBartolo classically said about Tim McKyer, before he dumped him, even with SF having CB woes then - I'd rather lose without him than win with him. There are just some players who are able to lead and galvanize other players by their base nature ( i.e. Jay Novacek, Ronnie Lott, John Offerdahl, Mike Singletary) and some who fracture a locker room as a whole.

I think in contemporary times, the most interesting examples of player development, i.e .a proxy for what you see as mentoring, come from Phil Jackson and Bill Parcells. Parcells was a genius at pushing buttons and waging psychological warfare on his own players. Notice the first thing he did in new digs was to ID two core players from the last regime, then brutally and publicly cut one and toss him to the street, and have the other stay and repeat the company line. Showing the contrast of what can and might happen to you if you stay or leave. Then infuse the locker room with his own "Parcells" players to regulate the tone and mood of the troops.

I think the core of player development is much longer standing process now. Football has really become a lifelong art within itself. I think the impact is greater than simply finding a veteran on the roster willing to help you if you reach the pro level. Just my take on it.

Thanks for the well thought out response. Helps a lot.

 

[ghostguy123]

Much smaller impact than IMO than most people seem to think it is.

Good coaching>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sitting behind a VEt.

 

[az_prof]

I don't know for sure, but I suspect it has a minimal effect. They have a position coach. Don't you think that coach would teach them what they need to know? It isn't like there is a secret list of things to do to be great that only the HOF guys know.

 

[loose circuits]

I think it's the character side of things and going about your business making good decisions that helps.

 

[ghostguy123]

I think it's the character side of things and going about your business making good decisions that helps.

Indeed.

Another thing is "film study". Some people think guys will get better for sure if they watch film 10 hours a day. Unfortunately, you can't just watch film and get better. You have to know what you are looking at and know how to interpret it. I would assume there is a wide range of how much players "get it" when watching film.

I can see some guys get more out of an hour of film study than others who watch for 7 hours.

This could tie into mentoring a bit of that veteran in willing to go over film with a young guy, but ultimately I think the young guy can only be helped so much.

 

[3quinox]

I think it's the character side of things and going about your business making good decisions that helps.

That reminds me a lot of the transformation Larry Fitzgerald went through went he was with Kurt Warner. It in some ways, really enhanced his already great work ethic, AND they weren't even the same position.

It's funny because than you have reports of him mentoring Michael Floyd, taking him out to Minnesota for drills and practice. In this particular example I bet Fitz helped Floyd have the season he had just like Kurt helped Fitz have the season he had, and i'm not just talking about Kurt's obvious great play at qb either.

 

[Joe Bryant]

michael vick helping foles etc.

Are you saying Vick didn't help Foles?

J

I'm saying that the mentor stuff in football is a lot different than in baseball/basketball where guys are on guaranteed contracts. Incidences of mentorship are rare because guys' jobs are on the line in a way you don't see in baseball or basketball.

I also don't think that Foles is a better QB now from sitting behind Vick as opposed to some other quarterback. I'd lean to the time with the coaching staff and familiarity with the NFL. While Foles paid Vick lip service, what did Vick really teach him? How to get sacked?

"I've learned a lot from him and the guy's a tough dude," Foles said. "One of the toughest guys I've ever seen. He gets hit, he gets right back up. He gets hit, he gets right back up and he keeps firing."

Thanks. That's really interesting. I read Foles learning from Vick and don't get at all.

I read the Foles quote about watching how tough Vick is and get a totally different take than "lip service". But that's what these boards are for.

J

 

[Bojang0301]

It's a two way street. I'm sure Tommy Maddox could tell you that.

 

[Biabreakable]

I think it's the character side of things and going about your business making good decisions that helps.

That reminds me a lot of the transformation Larry Fitzgerald went through went he was with Kurt Warner. It in some ways, really enhanced is already great work ethic, AND they weren't even the same position.

I think Fitzgerald is an excellent example. He learned what he could from Chris Carter and Randy Moss as a ball boy in MN. A position he got in part because of his ambition to learn from the best players at the position he aspired to play professionally.

Some people take to mentoring/coaching better than others. I think this is mostly about the persons attitude, do they want to learn and absorb everything they can from the people around them? Or do they think they already know everything? Perhaps their focus is on something other than trying to get better. Overconfidence can lead some players to think they cannot learn from a coach or anyone else, because no one else understands how good they are, or what they are capable of.

Recently I have heard some say that NFL coaches do not have time to teach fundamentals. That there is less coaching going on at the NFL level than college or HS. I am not sure if this is correct or not. If it is I wonder what Mike Zimmer and Norv Turner are pretending to be doing right now.

At the same time I do think there is some truth to this. As a person becomes older and further developed, there will be diminishing returns on how much what they learn can be translated into better play. At least relative to what a young person could improve from a change in training/technique. The first time you learn something will make a bigger impact on your improvement of a skill than the 100th time, when the person should then be just tweaking small details. You will also hear coaches talk about bad habits that players have developed before that they are trying to coach out of them and that being a challenge.

Patterson is another recent example of this for me as he is a very talented player, but raw in his route running and other fine points of being a WR. There is/was also a concern about his ability to learn from coaching. What I have seen from him since being drafted is a player who listens well and wants to be good. Good players seek coaching. He also has had Greg Jennings to learn from. Technique has long been considered one of Jennings strengths.

If not for Jennings being there I would have been more concerned about Pattersons development as a player. Particularly the WR position seems difficult for players to transition to. I think Jennings was brought in for what he offers to the development of young players on the Vikings as much as he was brought in for what he offers as a player.

 

[ghostguy123]

Is it more the mentoring........or the personality that some guys have that makes them seek that mentoring in the first place.

WHo knows. WHo mentored Peyton Manning? He might have mentored himself. He probably mentored Archie when he was like 9

 

[Joe Bryant]

I think it's the character side of things and going about your business making good decisions that helps.

That reminds me a lot of the transformation Larry Fitzgerald went through went he was with Kurt Warner. It in some ways, really enhanced is already great work ethic, AND they weren't even the same position.

I think Fitzgerald is an excellent example. He learned what he could from Chris Carter and Randy Moss as a ball boy in MN. A position he got in part because of his ambition to learn from the best players at the position he aspired to play professionally.

clipped...

Cris Carter - Randy Moss is another great example.

J

 

[Gawain]

michael vick helping foles etc.

Are you saying Vick didn't help Foles?

J

I'm saying that the mentor stuff in football is a lot different than in baseball/basketball where guys are on guaranteed contracts. Incidences of mentorship are rare because guys' jobs are on the line in a way you don't see in baseball or basketball.

I also don't think that Foles is a better QB now from sitting behind Vick as opposed to some other quarterback. I'd lean to the time with the coaching staff and familiarity with the NFL. While Foles paid Vick lip service, what did Vick really teach him? How to get sacked?

"I've learned a lot from him and the guy's a tough dude," Foles said. "One of the toughest guys I've ever seen. He gets hit, he gets right back up. He gets hit, he gets right back up and he keeps firing."

Thanks. That's really interesting. I read Foles learning from Vick and don't get at all.

I read the Foles quote about watching how tough Vick is and get a totally different take than "lip service". But that's what these boards are for.

J

Fitz's camp is a good one (although is it free, or do people pay to attend) and there was the Manning QB camp that Manziel had such an inconclusive result at, but I read this question as peer mentoring within a team amongst players of the same position. And that is fairly rare in the NFL.

Going back to the Foles quote, what is he claiming he learned from Vick? That he should get back up if he gets knocked down? I'd think that most fellas who make it to the NFL have learned this particular lesson. He doesn't talk about Vick helping him learn to read a Cover-2, he doesn't talk about Vick's help in looking off a DB or going through progressions.

My laugh was predicated on my perception of Vick being one of the least cerebral quarterbacks, one who was successful based on instinct and athleticism. Vick could have mentored Foles for years, Nick's never going to make every defender on the Vikings look foolish.

 

[Joe Bryant]

michael vick helping foles etc.

Are you saying Vick didn't help Foles?

J

I'm saying that the mentor stuff in football is a lot different than in baseball/basketball where guys are on guaranteed contracts. Incidences of mentorship are rare because guys' jobs are on the line in a way you don't see in baseball or basketball.

I also don't think that Foles is a better QB now from sitting behind Vick as opposed to some other quarterback. I'd lean to the time with the coaching staff and familiarity with the NFL. While Foles paid Vick lip service, what did Vick really teach him? How to get sacked?

"I've learned a lot from him and the guy's a tough dude," Foles said. "One of the toughest guys I've ever seen. He gets hit, he gets right back up. He gets hit, he gets right back up and he keeps firing."

Thanks. That's really interesting. I read Foles learning from Vick and don't get at all.

I read the Foles quote about watching how tough Vick is and get a totally different take than "lip service". But that's what these boards are for.

J

My laugh was predicated on my perception of Vick being one of the least cerebral quarterbacks, one who was successful based on instinct and athleticism. Vick could have mentored Foles for years, Nick's never going to make every defender on the Vikings look foolish.

Thanks for the discussion. No argument there that Vick is teaching Foles defensive scheme reads. But the issue I think is much bigger. It's things like how to be a pro. The quote you referenced was perfect. Foles got an up close picture of what kind of toughness is needed at this level. And Vick of course has the (fortunately) unique perspective to add with the dog issue. And that rolls out to the bigger - "don't stray and think you're too big to fail" type mentoring that could have happened. I've no idea if Foles needed that kind of ego checking but Vick surely is a great person for that.

Bottom line is I think the mentoring is actually a pretty huge deal for lots of players. Many of which we don't ever really hear about.

J