What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

:MERGED: Manning's Legacy Article (1 Viewer)

Joe Bryant

Guide
Staff member
I stopped at

Pittsburgh linebacker Joey Porter was right — the Colts are a finesse team, only able to win by trickery.
Yeah, the only way they can win is by tricking those guys into submission.... :rolleyes:J
 

Varmint

Footballguy
I stopped at

Pittsburgh linebacker Joey Porter was right — the Colts are a finesse team, only able to win by trickery.
Yeah, the only way they can win is by tricking those guys into submission.... :rolleyes: J
Seems odd that everyone seems to figure them out come playoff time..
 

Joe Bryant

Guide
Staff member
I stopped at

Pittsburgh linebacker Joey Porter was right — the Colts are a finesse team, only able to win by trickery.
Yeah, the only way they can win is by tricking those guys into submission.... :rolleyes: J
Seems odd that everyone seems to figure them out come playoff time..
Yes, there are a ton of threads on that today.J

 

cstu

Footballguy
I stopped at

Pittsburgh linebacker Joey Porter was right — the Colts are a finesse team, only able to win by trickery.
Yeah, the only way they can win is by tricking those guys into submission.... :rolleyes: J
Seems odd that everyone seems to figure them out come playoff time..
How about the Chargers? They figured out that if you pound the run 30+ times a game you can win.
 

Unlucky

Phenom
Can we please stop giving QBs credit for wins and losses? Two of the best QBs in the game, Brady and Manning, both lost this weekend. If they are so freaking great, why didn't they win? Oh, I forgot. Football is a team game, with far more players than just the QB. In the future, you are hereby banned from posting the "won-lost" record of a QB, since wins and losses are not solely his responsibility.

 

Keys Myaths

Pokerguy
Half the first page is Manning sucks threads.Honestly? This is stupid, in my opinion. You either believe he chokes in the playoffs, or you believe his team has more to do with it than he does, or you believe he's just had a few bad games.I don't think members of any three camps are changing their opinions based on some of the drivel that's been spouted tonight.I think the better team won today. I've thought the Colts' defense has been overrated all year, and again, a good defense would stop the Colts in the playoffs. The Colts offense is designed to take advantage of mistakes by the defense.Minimize mistakes, you minimize Manning. Plain and simple.But hey, I'm one guy with an opinion. If someone else disagrees with me, I'm not going to start *another* thread proclaiming why my theory is correct.Oh, yeah. Go Broncos.

 

Jimmy James

Footballguy
If you're serious about this, we'd might as well stop keeping stats for any player because none of them are true. They're all influenced by the play of another.This could be the worst post I have seen on a message board.

 

Keysersoze666

Footballguy
I have an even better idea ...Lets all collectively stop posting whiney tirades on a subject that EVERY single knowledgable fan that frequents this board already knows. Gee, the QB doesn't derserve all the credit all the time. :rolleyes: BTW, Rex Grossman's career playoff record is 0-1 and I'm not banned from anything.

 

Spartans Rule

Footballguy
I have an even better idea ...

Lets all collectively stop posting whiney tirades on a subject that EVERY single knowledgable fan that frequents this board already knows. Gee, the QB doesn't derserve all the credit all the time. :rolleyes:

BTW, Rex Grossman's career playoff record is 0-1 and I'm not banned from anything.
If every single knowledgable fan on this board knows that, then logic would dictate that 90% of this board is unknowledgable.
 

Keys Myaths

Pokerguy
If you're serious about this, we'd might as well stop keeping stats for any player because none of them are true. They're all influenced by the play of another.

This could be the worst post I have seen on a message board.
That flaming straw man keeping you warm over there?
 

Jimmy James

Footballguy
If you're serious about this, we'd might as well stop keeping stats for any player because none of them are true. They're all influenced by the play of another.

This could be the worst post I have seen on a message board.
That flaming straw man keeping you warm over there?
Are QB wins and losses not stats? You have improperly declared that I used a strawman argument.
 

Keysersoze666

Footballguy
Hey Spartans, I'm not sure I can argue with your point about the percentage, I'll try harder in the future to just ignore how the big percentage amuses itself.

 

Keys Myaths

Pokerguy
If you're serious about this, we'd might as well stop keeping stats for any player because none of them are true. They're all influenced by the play of another.

This could be the worst post I have seen on a message board.
That flaming straw man keeping you warm over there?
Are QB wins and losses not stats? You have improperly declared that I used a strawman argument.
Nope, but you decided to take his argument to the absolute extreme (nothing statistical matters), then set that argument on fire.That is your straw man.

 

Jimmy James

Footballguy
If you're serious about this, we'd might as well stop keeping stats for any player because none of them are true. They're all influenced by the play of another.

This could be the worst post I have seen on a message board.
That flaming straw man keeping you warm over there?
Are QB wins and losses not stats? You have improperly declared that I used a strawman argument.
Nope, but you decided to take his argument to the absolute extreme (nothing statistical matters), then set that argument on fire.That is your straw man.
Ah, I see -- you actually just misunderstood my argument. My argument is that someone can misapply any statistic, so the only way to keep someone like our thread starter from being annoyed by them is for statistics not to exist.
 

stbugs

Footballguy
Although the article is exactly what I expected after the loss, I am at least glad about one thing it mentioned:I agree that I don't think it was Vandy's fault at all that the Colts lost the game. I am sure most Colts' fans and others will put a new Kicker as the 1st thing on the list of changes for 2006, but that was awful play calling and time management to end up with a game tying FG from 46 yards out.First of all, they don't call a timeout with 2:30 left in the game and Manning couldn't get a play off before the 2 minute warning. They had 3 timeouts left. Sure they can score in a hurry, but really 30 seconds get burned off and they can't even get a play in before the 2 minute warning? They still had 60-70+ yards to go at that point.Second, they don't burn a timeout and what happens on the first play after the 2 minute warning? A sack, woo-hoo, nice use of the timeout to put a good play call in and good protection when Pittsburgh got up 21-3 because of pressure on Manning. Duh. Hey, if they don't mess up on my first of all, maybe the sack doesn't happen and Vandy has a 39 yarder, doesn't press as much for distance and makes it.Third, they don't call a timeout with 1 minute+ on the clock after Wayne's reception to the Steeler's 37. They burn another 30 seconds before getting an 8 yarder to Harrison. Geez, they have 3 timeouts left, why not wait until the games over, I heard that the NFL gives out money for unused timeouts. ;) Fourth, you have 30 seconds left and 2 timeouts and you just missed an almost TD to Wayne on 2 and 2. It is now 3rd and 2, and right now Vandy has a 46 yarder. Oh well, let's just try that Wayne in the corner thing again and come closer to an INT than a completion. Man, why not try to get the 1st down. Even if it is a 2 yard run, you have 2 timeouts left, use one and you have another just in case for the FG. Also, you get a 1st down and now, instead of 1 shot at the end zone, you have 3 more before you have to kick a FG. Heck, it would even be a shorter FG.Oh well, I got excited at the end of the game because I was hoping that this year might be a Super Bowl year for Indy and Manning, especially hosting Denver next week who they have owned in the post season. I am not a Colts fan in the least, but since the Redskins were out of it, I usually root for the guys that haven't had success but have gottent to the playoffs a bunch. After watching the end of the game, I felt bad for Vandy because I knew he would get most of the blame when it was an awful job by Manning that sealed their fate.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

bostonfred

Footballguy
OK, from now on, when discussing Manning choking in the playoffs, we'll name specific things he did wrong. This week:"ONE--> The interception. When Manning threw the (later overturned) game ending interception, he had 180 yards, 1 TD, and that 1 INT. Not great numbers, and he didn't keep his team in the game, but far from a choke. He got bailed out by the overturned interception, and while the Steelers were shellshocked, he led them on a fast TD drive. I give him credit for that - that was a great drive. And maybe that was the right call, I don't know. There's no question he threw a pick, though, and that it was game ending. Still, that in and of itself is not that bad. But after the Colts' D, which had been crushedin time of possession, makes a great three and out stand, TWO--> The four and out with two sacksManning responds by going four and out and turning the ball over inside his own five. Along the way, he was sacked twice, and lobbed another hook shot pass that should never have been thrown. At that point, the game appeared to be over. But wait, the defense bails him out again, and not only gets him the ball back, they get it to him at midfield. THREE--> Failing to get them in field goal rangeManning responds by getting them a handful of yards, then, with two timeouts left and plenty of time on the clock, inexplicably stops trying to advance into field goal range, and takes a low percentage shot at the end zone. He gets stopped with plenty of time on the clock, and ends up giving his kicker a field goal attempt that he can't hit. Do other people deserve blame for this performance? Maybe Vanderjagt, although that was far from a gimme. After a quick TD, the defense generally did a good job in this game, and certainly atoned for their sins in the fourth quarter on back to back drives when they got a key stop to get the ball back and then forced, recovered and returned Bettis' fumble when the game seemed out of hand. Wayne had a phenomenal game. Edge averaged over 4 yards a carry, had five catches and a touchdown. Clark had a 50 yard touchdown reception and deserves all the credit for about 40 yards after the catch.I suppose the offensive line didn't give him much time, but Manning didn't do the team a lot of favors today, either. He was fortunate to end up with the stat line he did, and that errors by Vanderjagt, Bettis and the referees outshadowed his own."Last year: "I think it's possible to see Manning "choking" without necessarily taking glee in it. I do think that Manning is a paper tiger and a regular season champion. I think he's a true artist with the skills he has. But I also think that his skills make him good at beating bad teams, and bad at beating good teams. His brand of football - changing his play at the line of scrimmage based on the defense - is only as good as his ability to read the opposing defense, and that's why he struggles against top defenses. It's certainly what stopped him today. ""Look at the play by play. The first drive ended when Manning threw a 2 yard pass to Pollard on third and four. The second drive ended on a Manning incompletion. The third drive ended on consecutive incompletions to Stokley, who was covered by Troy Brown at the time. He clearly misdiagnosed that as a mismatch. The fourth drive started with a Manning fumble on first down, followed by consecutive incomplete passes. The fifth drive ended on a 2nd and 17 pass to a well covered Dominic Rhodes for -2 yards - Rhodes was blanketed by Bruschi the whole way, so even if Bruschi doesn't strip him, it's still probably a loss or small gain when they need 17. The sixth drive ended with a field goal just before the half, but Manning and the Colts failed to call a timeout and because of it, they ended up kicking a field goal instead of going for it on third and goal from the 5 yard line. The Colts could have taken a shot at going into the locker room with a lead at halftime but had to settle for the field goal instead. The Patriots went three and out on their first possession of the second half, and the Colts had a chance to get some momentum. Instead, Manning's first drive of the second half ended when Manning threw a three yard pass to Stokley on third and four. He then sat on the bench for over 9 minutes, and ended when he threw a pass at Edge's feet, then threw the next pass out of bounds. Sure, he would have been risking an interception by throwing into coverage, but his defense was getting run over. He had to sustain a drive. The next drive, he was down three scores with seven minutes left, but instead of taking his shots downfield, he threw little dink and dunk stuff to Edge and Wayne. Wayne fumbled, then when Manning got the ball back with three minutes left and down by three scores, he started throwing 5-10 yard passes to get a passing touchdown in the closing minutes instead of trying to win the game. "Years past:"Manning's career numbers in the regular season:265 yards, 1.7 TDs, 1 INT (numbers through 2004 only - I didnt redo them this year)Manning's career numbers in the six playoff losses/"chokes":yards/TDs/INTs227/0/0194/1/0137/0/2237/1/4238/0/1290/1/0"There. All that without talking about won/loss record.

 

Kleck

Footballguy
This could be the worst post I have seen on a message board.
Not even close. Further, Mike (Unlucky) is one of the most respected members our board has ever had. He rarely speaks in generalities and he's rational in his approach to discussing the hobby way more often than the average fan.That said, I don't entirely agree with him. From my perspective a quarterback has more on his plate that the other guys on the team. I'm sure all 32 starting quarterbacks in the NFL would agree with that statement. The aspect of leadership is important, and they carry that burden.

First rule of responsibility: It's all your fault.

I think Manning screwed up today in his press conference. I'm sure he would readily admit it now after the fact. He's not perfect, and the standard that ignorant fans and media hold them to is insane. Win it all or you suck. That doesn't work for me.

 

Keys Myaths

Pokerguy
By the way, is anyone else seeing this Mastercard commercial?All the bloopers of the D-CAF scene, and at the end..."Not being perfect: Priceless".Ouch to releasing that now. Seriously. I hope I'm wrong in some way here, but if that was released after today's game, I have a problem with that.

 

Fumbleweed

Footballguy
I stopped at

Pittsburgh linebacker Joey Porter was right — the Colts are a finesse team, only able to win by trickery.
Yeah, the only way they can win is by tricking those guys into submission.... :rolleyes: J
Seems odd that everyone seems to figure them out come playoff time..
Everyone except Denver. The Colts have beaten the heck out of the Broncos in the playoffs the last few years......
 

Jimmy James

Footballguy
Let me put it this way: The argument just made to never bring up QB W-L is precisely the argument that anyone would have to also accept when it comes to the head coach being evaluated by W-L record. It's actually even worse for the head coach -- he doesn't even have a direct influence on the game because he plays none of the positions on the field. He is totally at the mercy of others.Strangely, whenever this discussion comes up (and this is hardly the first place I have encountered it), nobody has an objection to giving the coach this sort of statistical yardstick. In fact, most fans have an opinion on whether their coach should be retained or not that is almost solely based on this statistic. Now, somebody else can try to explain to me why this isn't a bad thread.

 

Sopranos

Footballguy
I have seen every Colts game since the mid 80's. Im a huge Fan and i live in the city, BUT Manning sucks when it counts..His passes where 10 yards off the first half. I wanted Sorgi in there. He flat out sucked...

 

ICON211

Footballguy
"make your peace with the football gods"Now this guy is blaming mythical football gods for his inadequecies and failures?

 

Varmint

Footballguy
Get a grip you whiners.....It was a link to an article on MSNBC....I didn't make this up.....Manning supplied the ingredients...

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jimmy James

Footballguy
Get a grip you whiners.....

It was a link to an article on MSNBC....

I didn't make this chit up.....Manning supplied the ingredients...
FWIW, I was talking about a thread merged into this one about how no QB should have a W-L record kept for him when I said this was a bad thread. I actually rather liked the article you contributed and cannot understand why these two threads were put together out of the many threads on the same general topic.
 

Varmint

Footballguy
Get a grip you whiners.....

It was a link to an article on MSNBC....

I didn't make this chit up.....Manning supplied the ingredients...
FWIW, I was talking about a thread merged into this one about how no QB should have a W-L record kept for him when I said this was a bad thread. I actually rather liked the article you contributed and cannot understand why these two threads were put together out of the many threads on the same general topic.
Hell if I know...I was just surprised to see such "QB Bashing" from a big news source like MSNBC....They usually just print the "facts" and don't go so much into opinions....

Maybe I've just missed it in the past..

 

Kleck

Footballguy
Half the first page is Manning sucks threads.
No, they're not, and we won't allow that to happen.To answer your question J James, threads that have the same rants get merged together. Otherwise we run the risk of Key's comment being true.

 

Jimmy James

Footballguy
... out of the many threads on the same general topic.
There are not "many threads". If there were, I would merge them. Glad we're on the same page. :thumbup:
Do you guys have the ability to alter thread titles when they're merged? I ask because as a moderator at one board and a user at many others, I have found it makes it a lot easier for people to follow if you can give them a heads up that threads have been merged when it happens. I personally prefer a nice (Merged #x:) at the front, but even just a M: might be helpful.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Kleck

Footballguy
I personally prefer a nice (Merged #x:) at the front, but even just a M: might be helpful.
Solid suggestion. I think I'll try and put that into practice in the future. :)
 

Spartans Rule

Footballguy
TWO--> The four and out with two sacks

Manning responds by going four and out and turning the ball over inside his own five. Along the way, he was sacked twice, and lobbed another hook shot pass that should never have been thrown. At that point, the game appeared to be over.

But wait, the defense bails him out again, and not only gets him the ball back, they get it to him at midfield.
I thought you were talking about specific things MANNING did wrong. Why is this in there?On the first sack, Dallas Clark was supposed to be watching Manning's blindside, but stepped up to help stop Polamalu, who was trying to force his way through the line, as Joey Porter ran right behind his back for the easy sack.

Porter also came in untouched on the second sack, although I couldn't figure out on replay where the missed assignment was. Polamalu again came on the blitz which seemed to disrupt Colts.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Blame Manning for throwing an interception. Blame him for poor clock management, although I disagree. But don't blame him for being blindsided on protection breakdowns.

 

Spartans Rule

Footballguy
THREE--> Failing to get them in field goal range

Manning responds by getting them a handful of yards, then, with two timeouts left and plenty of time on the clock, inexplicably stops trying to advance into field goal range, and takes a low percentage shot at the end zone. He gets stopped with plenty of time on the clock, and ends up giving his kicker a field goal attempt that he can't hit.
Mike Vanderjagt is 65-81, just a hair over 80%, between 40 and 49 yards for his career. He's 62-68, about 91%, between 30 and 39 yards.I don't see the wisdom in trying to move the ball 5-10 yards closer and getting an extra 10% on a field goal try which merely ties the game. Why not shoot for the end zone? Vandy's good 4 out of 5 times from that range. This was the fifth time.

 

Jimmy James

Footballguy
Mike Vanderjagt is 65-81, just a hair over 80%, between 40 and 49 yards for his career. He's 62-68, about 91%, between 30 and 39 yards.

I don't see the wisdom in trying to move the ball 5-10 yards closer and getting an extra 10% on a field goal try which merely ties the game. Why not shoot for the end zone? Vandy's good 4 out of 5 times from that range. This was the fifth time.
The problem with that logic is that a 2 yard Edge run and a time out gives Manning 3 more shots at the end zone before they kick. They had about that much time on the clock.
 

Red Apples

Footballguy
THREE--> Failing to get them in field goal range

Manning responds by getting them a handful of yards, then, with two timeouts left and plenty of time on the clock, inexplicably stops trying to advance into field goal range, and takes a low percentage shot at the end zone.  He gets stopped with plenty of time on the clock, and ends up giving his kicker a field goal attempt that he can't hit. 
Mike Vanderjagt is 65-81, just a hair over 80%, between 40 and 49 yards for his career. He's 62-68, about 91%, between 30 and 39 yards.I don't see the wisdom in trying to move the ball 5-10 yards closer and getting an extra 10% on a field goal try which merely ties the game. Why not shoot for the end zone? Vandy's good 4 out of 5 times from that range. This was the fifth time.
You don't see the wisdom in trying to get closer so your FG is easier, so you can tie the game and send it into overtime in your own stadium?You are the definition of a Manning fan.

 

cstu

Footballguy
Mike Vanderjagt is 65-81, just a hair over 80%, between 40 and 49 yards for his career. He's 62-68, about 91%, between 30 and 39 yards.

I don't see the wisdom in trying to move the ball 5-10 yards closer and getting an extra 10% on a field goal try which merely ties the game. Why not shoot for the end zone? Vandy's good 4 out of 5 times from that range. This was the fifth time.
The problem with that logic is that a 2 yard Edge run and a time out gives Manning 3 more shots at the end zone before they kick. They had about that much time on the clock.
There was plenty of time on the clock for them to get the 1st down and spike the ball, giving them 2 shots at the endzone or possibly moving the kick closer. Throwing the ball in situation where the Steelers knew what was coming was stupid. The Colts only ran the ball one time in the last 27 minutes of the game. That one run? A 3 yard TD by Edge.

 

Red Apples

Footballguy
Manning not getting any love...

Manning's Struggles Doom Colts in Playoffs AgainIndianapolis Eliminated Early After 13-0 Start to Regular SeasonBy MICHAEL MAROT, AP INDIANAPOLIS (Jan. 15) - Peyton Manning couldn't get comfortable against the Pittsburgh Steelers' defense Sunday. Then he had to squirm through the latest round of questions about another playoff failure.After his Indianapolis Colts lost 21-18 to the Steelers, at home no less, Manning stared into the cameras and tried to explain the disappointment of knowing that another promising season had slipped away without a trip to the Super Bowl."All I know is to keep working, to come back next year and be a better quarterback, a better leader," he said. "You get tired of saying that after every playoff loss because pretty soon, you start running out of years."Clearly, this loss was more frustrating to Manning, now 3-6 in the postseason. It was a blown chance, perhaps his best yet of reaching the Super Bowl.Manning and the Colts opened 13-0 to earn the AFC's top seed and home-field advantage throughout the playoffs. And with New England already eliminated, the two-time MVP finally seemed primed to take Indianapolis all the way.Three weeks of rest were also supposed to make Manning stronger, and the Colts healthier.But Indy (14-3) didn't play well, and Manning hardly looked like himself until he nearly rallied the Colts in the fourth quarter.The sharp, accurate passes that have defined Manning's career were missing early. Instead, he was plagued by overthrows, wide throws and heavy pressure. He finished 22-of-38 for 290 yards with one touchdown, five sacks and several hurries. Afterward, he grudgingly accepted it for what it was - another season of failing to meet expectations. "I couldn't tell you how much I studied these guys over the last two weeks," Manning said. "It's disappointing we didn't win the game. But I'm going to keep trying, that's all I can say.""I'm looking for a safe word here, I don't want to be a bad teammate," Manning said when asked about Indianapolis' blown blocking assignments. "Pittsburgh gave us trouble and put us in some situations we're not usually in."The Colts' high-scoring offense opened the game with four straight punts. They managed one first down - on a one-handed catch by Marvin Harrison - and only 25 total yards in the first quarter. As the Steelers continued bringing pressure, things got worse."They blitzed and that's their style," Colts coach Tony Dungy said. "We made some throws against the blitz in the fourth quarter, but not enough. They made the plays."To Manning, it's become an all-too-common refrain. He lost his first three playoff games, including an embarrassing 41-0 defeat to the New York Jets in January 2003. Then came back-to-back losses the last two years at New England in the rain, snow and ice. After those losses, some contended the only way for Manning and the Colts to reach the Super Bowl was to stay indoors.Their 13-game winning streak assured them of that much, but the Steelers' defense destroyed any chance of it this season.It wasn't all Manning's fault, to be sure. Tarik Glenn was called for two false starts, one that cost Indianapolis a touchdown. Mike Vanderjagt, the NFL's most accurate kicker, missed a 46-yard field goal that would have forced overtime after a gift fumble by Jerome Bettis.Receivers broke routes off short when Manning expected them to run deeper. Edgerrin James was held mostly in check, and Pittsburgh rattled the Colts' defense with two early touchdown drives.And, as often happens, the burden fell to Manning, and he couldn't save his team."We just didn't play well enough today," Dungy said. "They played better than we did, they deserved to win the game. We played hard and gave ourselves a chance but didn't quite make enough plays."Manning did stabilize the Colts by leading them on a 96-yard drive in the second quarter, but they settled for a 20-yard field goal after Glenn's miscue on third-and-goal from the 1 cost them a TD. He hooked up with Dallas Clark on a nifty, 50-yard TD pass early in the fourth quarter to make it 21-10. Manning delivered again with a six-play, 80-yard drive after an interception call was curiously reversed. James eventually ran 3 yards for the TD and Manning threw to Reggie Wayne on a 2-point conversion to make it 21-18.Then, with the season on the line, Manning drove the Colts to the Pittsburgh 28 but missed Wayne on two straight throws. Manning figured Vanderjagt would force overtime."When you're down three and you get to that distance, you feel like it's a safe field-goal distance, so you try to go for the win," Manning said. "You try to be aggressive and try to win the game."But Vanderjagt pushed it wide right as Manning winced on the sideline."The reality is when you see it going right, you know the season is over," Manning said. "It's a hard feeling to swallow."
 

Bob Henry

Footballguy
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Blame Manning for throwing an interception. Blame him for poor clock management, although I disagree. But don't blame him for being blindsided on protection breakdowns.
C'mon Sparty, as a fellow Lions fan, we know this is standard practice in Detroit. Joey gets blamed for everything (and now Millen). lol... carry on. I personally home Bettis goes out with a SB victory in front of the home town crowd.
 

Wilbur Wood

Footballguy
First off, I do not HATE Peyton Manning. However, I do have opinions about NFL football. I am in my mid-40's and since season of Super Bowl III, can probably count on one hand the number of NFL playoff games that I have not watched on TV. Several hundred playoff games, lots of terrific QB play --- Namath, Bradshaw, Stabler, Staubach, Montana, Elway, Young, Favre, Brady, Delhomme (?) and several that I am obviously forgetting. Peyton Manning's body of work in the NFL post-season does not put him in the same company as these other QBs. Unfair, perhaps (I did limit this to "post-season" only). Vince Lombardi once said that the one thing that he did not like about the game of football was the position of quarterback -- as the position was of such paramount importance that it somehow served to undermine the concept of the team and that no individual piece is bigger than the whole. Fair point, perhaps Vince went a little over the top to make a point. QB's -- too much credit when they win, too much blame when they lose, but these are the guys that NFL teams throw high 8 figure contracts at (with much of this money guaranteed) so I shed no tears when they are thoroughly borescoped after a loss.A lot has been said on a thread that has now been locked, so I'll limit my comments to a couple of points:#1 "Peyton Manning is clearly the greatest QB in the NFL today and playoff losses are a result of the fact that football is a team game and the Colts' opponents in these games greatly outplayed the entire Colts team and in no way did Manning's individual effort in these losses diminish his stock as the NFL's best QB" - I find it down right comical that virtually any other viewpoint is categorized, in some cases by otherwise intelligent NFL analysts (Wood, Ashcroft), as a "Manning HATE statement". And I use to think that Mets fans had inferiority complexes.#2 IMO, Tom Brady is a better NFL QB than Peyton Manning. There I said it, a statement in the warped view of some that is a "Manning HATE statement". I am a JETS fan, thus I do not like or ever root for the Patriots. Thus, I don't think that I bring a fans' bias to my assessment. I base this on the fact that Brady is as "tough as nails" and consistently brings his "A game" to the field in the playoffs. I do not think that Brady simply tags along for the ride as part of a great team, I think that he has had to perform at the very top of his game to bring home post-season wins. Brady didn't quite have his "A game" versus Denver, yet I still like how Brady played in defeat better than I do how Manning played in defeat vs Pitt. A critical difference that is greatly highlighted in the post-season in which Brady is SIGNIFICANTLY better than Manning is in his ability to hang in the pocket in the presence of a pass rush and make strong, accurate throws. The differential in this important ability was never more evident than this past weekend. Denver brought a ton of pressure against Brady and there were numerous times when Brady exhibited the classic pocket toughness to "hang in" and make a strong, confident, accurate throw down the field, right before he was to get hit. On the other hand, Manning in the face of pressure develops happy feet and makes weak, inaccurate throws in the face of pressure. The difference between the two in this key area has nothing to do with "mobility" or "physical gifts", but rather it is all about "toughness".#3 Here is an excerpt from today, Indianapolis Star by Kravitz (who I guess is just another person who HATES Peyton Manning): "Another big game. Another big stage. Another spectacular flameout, a meltdown of epic proportions. Seen this movie before? There was 41-0 to the Jets in 2003. There was 24-14 in 2004 and 21-3 in 2005, both in New England. And then there was this, the worst of them all, a game Peyton Manning, in particular, may never live down. Even now, the clouds of doubt are gathering around Manning, and the whispers are so loud, they seemed to be artificially enhanced. He can't win the big one. Didn't win them in college. Hasn't won them in the pros. Not the biggest ones."#4 This year everything was set up for the Colts. Peyton Manning is a classic "momentum QB". When everything is breaking right with the well-oiled Colts machine there is no QB on the planet that can match Peyton's stat line. He now has a 3-6 playoff record, and his stat line in those 3 wins was very impressive. However, two of those were in complete blowouts at home and the 3rd against KC was against the worst defense seen in the NFL playoffs since the Bass-led Charger D of the '80's. I would love to see Manning win a big NFL playoff game, on the road (outdoors) in a game in which his team trails in the 4th qtr. This year he could have diffused a lot of his critics without ever having to get close to playing an outdoor, road game. The Colts were clearly the best team in the NFL during the regular season, yet based upon what we saw yesterday I think that in addition to the loss to Pitt, the Colts would not have been able to win vs Denver or New England. Thus, somehow the Manning-led Colts morphed from the best team in the NFL into perhaps the 4th best team in the AFC. #5 Manning's comments regarding the offensive showed a lack of leadership and accountability.#6 As a fan, I am not enamored with Manning's persistent utilizing and fake line calls. I know that it has its moments. However, it puts unnecessary pressure on the line to hold their stances. The false start penalty that negated the Colts 1st half TD was huge.#7 I know that this thread is not about Eli, but I find it interesting that Baby Bro had an extremely ugly post-season debut. Yes, he is young. However, he has quite a bit more NFL experience and more "skills" than Rex Grossman. Yet somehow, Grossman showed me a lot more than Eli did in what was the first post-season game for either young QB.#8 I don't think that I have ever read a more stupid comment than the one that suggested that it is "Manning's strong Christian faith" that causes some to HATE him.#9. Many highly regarded NFL analysts are espousing similar views on Manning today. Not all, but a significant number. Probably none of these folks HATE Peyton Manning. Yet somehow in the twisted world of denial in which the faithful Manning followers reside, they are all "Manning HATERS".

 

Wilbur Wood

Footballguy
Sorry I didn't see this thread, so I moved my other one over to here:First off, I do not HATE Peyton Manning. However, I do have opinions about NFL football. I am in my mid-40's and since season of Super Bowl III, can probably count on one hand the number of NFL playoff games that I have not watched on TV. Several hundred playoff games, lots of terrific QB play --- Namath, Bradshaw, Stabler, Staubach, Montana, Elway, Young, Favre, Brady, Delhomme (?) and several that I am obviously forgetting. Peyton Manning's body of work in the NFL post-season does not put him in the same company as these other QBs. Unfair, perhaps (I did limit this to "post-season" only). Vince Lombardi once said that the one thing that he did not like about the game of football was the position of quarterback -- as the position was of such paramount importance that it somehow served to undermine the concept of the team and that no individual piece is bigger than the whole. Fair point, perhaps Vince went a little over the top to make a point. QB's -- too much credit when they win, too much blame when they lose, but these are the guys that NFL teams throw high 8 figure contracts at (with much of this money guaranteed) so I shed no tears when they are thoroughly borescoped after a loss.A lot has been said on this thread, so I'll limit my comments to a couple of points:#1 "Peyton Manning is clearly the greatest QB in the NFL today and playoff losses are a result of the fact that football is a team game and the Colts' opponents in these games greatly outplayed the entire Colts team and in no way did Manning's individual effort in these losses diminish his stock as the NFL's best QB" - I find it down right comical that virtually any other viewpoint is categorized, in some cases by otherwise intelligent NFL analysts (Wood, Ashcroft), as a "Manning HATE statement". And I use to think that Mets fans had inferiority complexes.#2 IMO, Tom Brady is a better NFL QB than Peyton Manning. There I said it, a statement in the warped view of some that is a "Manning HATE statement". I am a JETS fan, thus I do not like or ever root for the Patriots. Thus, I don't think that I bring a fans' bias to my assessment. I base this on the fact that Brady is as "tough as nails" and consistently brings his "A game" to the field in the playoffs. I do not think that Brady simply tags along for the ride as part of a great team, I think that he has had to perform at the very top of his game to bring home post-season wins. Brady didn't quite have his "A game" versus Denver, yet I still like how Brady played in defeat better than I do how Manning played in defeat vs Pitt. A critical difference that is greatly highlighted in the post-season in which Brady is SIGNIFICANTLY better than Manning is in his ability to hang in the pocket in the presence of a pass rush and make strong, accurate throws. The differential in this important ability was never more evident than this past weekend. Denver brought a ton of pressure against Brady and there were numerous times when Brady exhibited the classic pocket toughness to "hang in" and make a strong, confident, accurate throw down the field, right before he was to get hit. On the other hand, Manning in the face of pressure develops happy feet and makes weak, inaccurate throws in the face of pressure. The difference between the two in this key area has nothing to do with "mobility" or "physical gifts", but rather it is all about "toughness".#3 Here is an excerpt from today, Indianapolis Star by Kravitz (who I guess is just another person who HATES Peyton Manning): "Another big game. Another big stage. Another spectacular flameout, a meltdown of epic proportions. Seen this movie before? There was 41-0 to the Jets in 2003. There was 24-14 in 2004 and 21-3 in 2005, both in New England. And then there was this, the worst of them all, a game Peyton Manning, in particular, may never live down. Even now, the clouds of doubt are gathering around Manning, and the whispers are so loud, they seemed to be artificially enhanced. He can't win the big one. Didn't win them in college. Hasn't won them in the pros. Not the biggest ones."#4 This year everything was set up for the Colts. Peyton Manning is a classic "momentum QB". When everything is breaking right with the well-oiled Colts machine there is no QB on the planet that can match Peyton's stat line. He now has a 3-6 playoff record, and his stat line in those 3 wins was very impressive. However, two of those were in complete blowouts at home and the 3rd against KC was against the worst defense seen in the NFL playoffs since the Bass-led Charger D of the '80's. I would love to see Manning win a big NFL playoff game, on the road (outdoors) in a game in which his team trails in the 4th qtr. This year he could have diffused a lot of his critics without ever having to get close to playing an outdoor, road game. The Colts were clearly the best team in the NFL during the regular season, yet based upon what we saw yesterday I think that in addition to the loss to Pitt, the Colts would not have been able to win vs Denver or New England. Thus, somehow the Manning-led Colts morphed from the best team in the NFL into perhaps the 4th best team in the AFC. #5 Manning's comments regarding the offensive showed a lack of leadership and accountability.#6 As a fan, I am not enamored with Manning's persistent utilizing and fake line calls. I know that it has its moments. However, it puts unnecessary pressure on the line to hold their stances. The false start penalty that negated the Colts 1st half TD was huge.#7 I know that this thread is not about Eli, but I find it interesting that Baby Bro had an extremely ugly post-season debut. Yes, he is young. However, he has quite a bit more NFL experience and more "skills" than Rex Grossman. Yet somehow, Grossman showed me a lot more than Eli did in what was the first post-season game for either young QB.#8 I don't think that I have ever read a more stupid comment than the one that suggested that it is "Manning's strong Christian faith" that causes some to HATE him.#9. Many highly regarded NFL analysts are espousing similar views on Manning today. Not all, but a significant number. Probably none of these folks HATE Peyton Manning. Yet somehow in the twisted world of denial in which the faithful Manning followers reside, they are all "Manning HATERS".

 
Last edited by a moderator:

nygiants56

Footballguy
I stopped at

Pittsburgh linebacker Joey Porter was right — the Colts are a finesse team, only able to win by trickery.
Yeah, the only way they can win is by tricking those guys into submission.... :rolleyes: J
Seems odd that everyone seems to figure them out come playoff time..
not really, its called Tony Dungy's Disease...4-7 lifetime playoff record, one of the worst among active coaches.Indy will quickly realize that TB won a SB the year after they fired Dungy..

hmm..notice a pattern developing? :eek:

 

nygiants56

Footballguy
:goodposting: #1. Manning has never won any championship at any level.#2. he has a lifetime 3-6 playoff record.#3. looks alot like Dan Fouts - i.e., great stats, no BIG WINS.#4. Manning teams up with 2 of the best players in the history of the NFL, at their positions: Edge James, and Marvin Harrison.there is simply NO EXCUSE for him to ALWAYS lose big games.none at all.#5. HE IS NO TOM BRADY you got that right!!he is overrated..great regular season QB, maybe..but one of the worst postseason qb's , ever. isn't he tied with, or close to Danny White for most playoff appearances without playing in a SB?
 

20252

Footballguy
What I want to know is, why did the DB cut back to the inside, when he could have beat Roethliberger to the outside?

 

B Maverick

Footballguy
:goodposting:

#3. looks alot like Dan Fouts - i.e., great stats, no BIG WINS.
SD vs Mia wasnt a big win? And you cant count the next week in cinci with frost bitten hands after the 2 games in unbearable heat the week before.Sorry for the hijack

As for manning, i am saddened by the "hate". He is a great QB and maybe someday he will pull a Young and get the monkey off his back. Even then the haters will look at it all and think it took him long enough and one win doesnt fix all the failures. Maybe he will be marino or kelly, maybe someday he will turn into Elway and Young. He is 30 right? still has several good years left.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top