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MFL Tie-Breaker Help!!! (1 Viewer)

The Captain

Footballguy
Have a tie-breaker situation in a league I co-comish and hoping my fellow FBGs can help me determine proper seeding for our playoffs.   This hasn’t happened in the 15 years the league has existed. 
 

Our tiebreakers are listed as the following; 1) Record 2) Head-to-head 3) Divisional Record 4) Total Points .

How do you seed the following three playoff teams that don't all reside in the same division and didn't play each other an equal number of times?  Also interested in your reasoning. 

Team 1- Division 1, 9-5 overall, 7-3 division, 2-0 vs Team 2, 0-1 vs Team 3, 109.6ppg

Team 2, Division 1, 9-5 overall, 5-5 division, 0-2 vs Team 1, 0-0 vs Team 3, 111.3ppg

Team 3, Division 2, 9-5 overall, 6-4 division, 1-0 vs Team 1, 0-0 vs Team 2, 109.5ppg

 

bombjack

Footballguy
Used to have a H2H tiebreak with the divisions and it was a nightmare. If there was an uneven amount of H2H matchups or split wins, just skip to the total points. H2H can be a tie-break on the off chance total points is tied between 2 teams.

 

Ardbeg4ever

Footballguy
We have it listed the same way but HtoH has to be a clean sweep and division is only for division winner, for wild card if no one swept, it goes to points.

 

Stinkin Ref

IBL Representative
"Our tiebreakers are listed as the following; 1) Record 2) Head-to-head 3) Divisional Record 4) Total Points "

1 is a wash....2 can't be used...(you should fix this in the future btw) 

unless you aren't explaining it right.....its pretty easy.....it's team 1 with the best divisional record

eta: another reason to incorporate all play in your league

 
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TheWinz

Footballguy
Have a tie-breaker situation in a league I co-comish and hoping my fellow FBGs can help me determine proper seeding for our playoffs.   This hasn’t happened in the 15 years the league has existed. 
 

Our tiebreakers are listed as the following; 1) Record 2) Head-to-head 3) Divisional Record 4) Total Points .

How do you seed the following three playoff teams that don't all reside in the same division and didn't play each other an equal number of times?  Also interested in your reasoning. 

Team 1- Division 1, 9-5 overall, 7-3 division, 2-0 vs Team 2, 0-1 vs Team 3, 109.6ppg

Team 2, Division 1, 9-5 overall, 5-5 division, 0-2 vs Team 1, 0-0 vs Team 3, 111.3ppg

Team 3, Division 2, 9-5 overall, 6-4 division, 1-0 vs Team 1, 0-0 vs Team 2, 109.5ppg
The #1 tiebreaker solves nothing, so you must go to tiebreaker #2.  Based on this, Team 3 is undefeated vs the 2 others and gets the highest seed.  The rest is easy.  Team 1 beat Team 2 twice.  And if you start with Team 1 vs Team 2, you will reach the same conclusion.  Team 1 beats Team 2, and Team 3 beats Team 1.  No reason to move down to tiebreakers 3 or 4.

 

TheWinz

Footballguy
Why are people skipping H2H records?  Who said the 3 teams had to have played each other an equal amount of times, if at all?

 

Judge Smails

Footballguy
As a general rule, divisional records have no business being used to break ties outside the division.  Don't understand why this seems difficult to comprehend.
This. So the only division tiebreaker is between team 1 and 2. 1 would be the division winner. Team 3 is the other division winner and beat team 1 head to head. So 3, 1, 2

 
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TheWinz

Footballguy
This. So the only division tiebreaker is between team 1 and 2. 1 would be the division winner. Team 3 is the other division winner and beat team 1 head to head. So 3, 1, 2
While we agree it should be 3, 1, 2, I disagree on how you got there.  You kind of merged tiebreakers 2 & 3 to come up with your conclusion, but do we really even need to go past tiebreaker 2?

 

Judge Smails

Footballguy
While we agree it should be 3, 1, 2, I disagree on how you got there.  You kind of merged tiebreakers 2 & 3 to come up with your conclusion, but do we really even need to go past tiebreaker 2?
To me division record only matters within the division - so it goes H2H then points 

 
In my league we always break in-division ties first, and  team can’t qualify for the playoffs until everyone above them in the division qualifies first.  That way you don’t have more than three teams vying for a playoff spot at any time.

so in your scenario, Team 1 would “block” Team 2 by sweeping the HTH.  Team 3 gets in ahead of Team 1 by beating them.

Team 3>Team 1>Team 2

 

Birdie048

Footballguy
Why are people skipping H2H records?  Who said the 3 teams had to have played each other an equal amount of times, if at all?
How can you use the H2H Tie breaker if they don't play each other?  Teams 2 & 3 did not face off 

And with an un-even # of H2H matches, it should not be used.  

Team 1- Division 1, 9-5 overall, 7-3 division, 2-0 vs Team 2, 0-1 vs Team 3, 109.6ppg

Team 2, Division 1, 9-5 overall, 5-5 division, 0-2 vs Team 1, 0-0 vs Team 3, 111.3ppg

Team 3, Division 2, 9-5 overall, 6-4 division, 1-0 vs Team 1, 0-0 vs Team 2, 109.5ppg


I could see 1 & 3 being top 2 but how you get there could determine who is #1.  

Clearly Team 2 is 3rd of the 3. 

 
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eric rymer

Footballguy
Have a tie-breaker situation in a league I co-comish and hoping my fellow FBGs can help me determine proper seeding for our playoffs.   This hasn’t happened in the 15 years the league has existed. 
 

Our tiebreakers are listed as the following; 1) Record 2) Head-to-head 3) Divisional Record 4) Total Points .

How do you seed the following three playoff teams that don't all reside in the same division and didn't play each other an equal number of times?  Also interested in your reasoning. 

Team 1- Division 1, 9-5 overall, 7-3 division, 2-0 vs Team 2, 0-1 vs Team 3, 109.6ppg

Team 2, Division 1, 9-5 overall, 5-5 division, 0-2 vs Team 1, 0-0 vs Team 3, 111.3ppg

Team 3, Division 2, 9-5 overall, 6-4 division, 1-0 vs Team 1, 0-0 vs Team 2, 109.5ppg
Are your playoffs divisional based? Do teams within the division play to the point where they play the winner of the other division. I would hope so and if that's the case your tiebreaking criteria needs to reflect that and move #3 to the #2 spot.

Hard to use H2H if you don't have a clear cut way to define it. Meaning, win % solely based off the number of games played regardless of how many? Team 1 has more wins but team 3 has a higher win %. I would throw that out unless it gets better definition in the offseason. But it's in the rules so you have to use it. fix and define it more clearly for next season.

Now throw out what I said above because you cannot change the rules here and now. So, based on the rules you have in place, 1 is a wash, #2 is the where it stops. I would say team 3 gets in based off the H2H win %. I'll add that I don't like this and think team 1 is more deserving with clearly a better divisional record and more wins h2h but that's not following the rules in place. This stuff happens though as I've been on the end off it feeling screwed. Definitely need an offseason owners meeting to fix it next season. 

 

JohnnyU

Footballguy
If a league is using victory points, then first tiebreaker should be winning % and 2nd tiebreaker should be total points and third tiebreaker should be h2h.  If a league isn't using VP and winning % is first determination, then the first tiebreaker should be total points, 2nd tiebreaker H2H, and third tiebreaker power rank.

 

Sam Quentin

Footballguy
Every ####### year with this head to head tiebreaker 

H2H as a tiebreaker for fantasy is stupid on every level.  Go with total points as the tiebreaker next year.

Head to head for the weekly matchup is “fun” because it makes in game action easy to track mentally.

For playoff tiebreakers, total points is what is the one that is easier to track mentally.

If you don’t definitively know who is in the playoffs by the end of MNF, that is the opposite of fun.  
 

DON’T USE H2H as a playoff tiebreaker. 

 

jobarules

Footballguy
First of all, switch to points scored as the tie-breaker. It eliminates all this nonsense and also eliminates a small part of the luck factor.

Second of all, you cant use Divisional record as all teams are not in the same division so throw that out.

H2H is tricky because all teams didnt play each other but you have no rule that says they have to all play each other so I would nominate team 3 as they are 1-0 vs the other 2 teams vs 2-1 and 0-2.

I dont feel great about the above but it is what it is based on this dumb tie breaker.

 

tangfoot

Living Slackmaster
They are not in the same division
That's entirely irrelevant.  The OP says division record is the tie breaker, not division record amongst teams in the same division.

All these teams played the same number of division games, and the league felt like the record in games played against division rivals is the tie breaker.

 

Birdie048

Footballguy
That's entirely irrelevant.  The OP says division record is the tie breaker, not division record amongst teams in the same division.

All these teams played the same number of division games, and the league felt like the record in games played against division rivals is the tie breaker.
Excellent point.  While it might be "implied" Division Record only impacts division standings, cross division still impacted if the rules indicate such. 

Another approach is to use Process steps based on the Rules: 

Our tiebreakers are listed as the following; 1) Record 2) Head-to-head 3) Divisional Record 4) Total Points .

Team 1- Division 1, 9-5 overall, 7-3 division, 2-0 vs Team 2, 0-1 vs Team 3, 109.6ppg

Team 2, Division 1, 9-5 overall, 5-5 division, 0-2 vs Team 1, 0-0 vs Team 3, 111.3ppg

Team 3, Division 2, 9-5 overall, 6-4 division, 1-0 vs Team 1, 0-0 vs Team 2, 109.5ppg
The way the rules are written, without further clarification by OP, you can use H2H.  

So in a Head to Head review, Team 1 > Team 2 and Team 3 > Team 1 so the rank could be Team 3, Team 1 then Team 2.  

 

TheWinz

Footballguy
For those saying the tiebreaker rules suck, the OP knows.  He's simply trying to be fair, and will work to change the rules next year.   :deadhorse:

 

MrJimiT

Footballguy
How do you seed the following three playoff teams that don't all reside in the same division and didn't play each other an equal number of times?  Also interested in your reasoning. 

Team 1- Division 1, 9-5 overall, 7-3 division, 2-0 vs Team 2, 0-1 vs Team 3, 109.6ppg

Team 2, Division 1, 9-5 overall, 5-5 division, 0-2 vs Team 1, 0-0 vs Team 3, 111.3ppg

Team 3, Division 2, 9-5 overall, 6-4 division, 1-0 vs Team 1, 0-0 vs Team 2, 109.5ppg


I agree with many of the others, HTH cannot be applied amongst the 3 teams since they had not played each other. Using existing rules provided, Team 1 gets the highest seed of the 3 teams due to a superior division record. That leaves Team 2 and Team 3. Once again, no HTH between the two teams so next rule applied is also the division record and that would go to Team 3.

#1 Team 1

#2 Team 3

#3 Team 2

 

tangfoot

Living Slackmaster
For those saying the tiebreaker rules suck, the OP knows.  He's simply trying to be fair, and will work to change the rules next year.   :deadhorse:
I don't see anything wrong with the tiebreaker rules as written. But the fact that there's an ongoing discussion over interpretations means that the bylaws should be cleaned up to state exactly how they will be applied.

 

Judge Smails

Footballguy
I agree with many of the others, HTH cannot be applied amongst the 3 teams since they had not played each other. Using existing rules provided, Team 1 gets the highest seed of the 3 teams due to a superior division record. That leaves Team 2 and Team 3. Once again, no HTH between the two teams so next rule applied is also the division record and that would go to Team 3.

#1 Team 1

#2 Team 3

#3 Team 2
Sure it can. If teams are 1-1 HTH then you have to move to the next tiebreaker. Same as 0-0

 

Gally

Footballguy
Are all three teams in the playoffs and this is for seeding or is this for who gets into the playoffs?  That question is relevant because you can eliminate one of the two teams in the same division easily if they are all going for the last playoff spot.  Actually, I would say that should be the case anyway because you should figure out division rankings first and then go out from there.  

For my interpretation I would figure out the division seeding first.  Then go to cross division tie breaks.  With that said Team 1 beats out Team 2 for the higher division ranking (H2H winner).  Then Team 1 vs Team 3 for seeding across divisions.   Team 3 over Team 1 due to the H2H tie breaker which is the second listed in the hierarchy.   

Regardless it seems like some bylaws need to be clarified for next year.

 

The Captain

Footballguy
Are all three teams in the playoffs and this is for seeding or is this for who gets into the playoffs?  That question is relevant because you can eliminate one of the two teams in the same division easily if they are all going for the last playoff spot.  Actually, I would say that should be the case anyway because you should figure out division rankings first and then go out from there.  

For my interpretation I would figure out the division seeding first.  Then go to cross division tie breaks.  With that said Team 1 beats out Team 2 for the higher division ranking (H2H winner).  Then Team 1 vs Team 3 for seeding across divisions.   Team 3 over Team 1 due to the H2H tie breaker which is the second listed in the hierarchy.   

Regardless it seems like some bylaws need to be clarified for next year.
All three teams are in the playoffs (thankfully) so this is just for seeding.

We will be changing the tie-breakers in the off-season so that total points is second behind record. Assuming the vote passes! 

I think the variety of opinions demonstrates that, as written, the tie-breakers aren’t black and white. If they were to stay the same, additional clarification needs to be added in the bylaws. 

 
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-jb-

Footballguy
Get the league together, have the three of them chug three beers, then have a sack race.

 

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