Michigan`s Governor Whitmer proposing a new 46 cent a gallon tax hike (1 Viewer)

[Sheriff Bart]

I like water is a challenge because it moves so who is to say exactly who the water belongs to but ultimately Michigan’s most valuable resource is it’s access to an abundance of fresh water but we have done a lot in the name of profit to potentially jeopardize that. There’s concerns about oil pipelines leaking into the Great Lakes. Even my former House Rep who was a form conservative expressed his concern over the lack of oversight that the oil companies were providing for the old pipelines. It seems to me that if companies want to profit by selling water they pull out of our rivers or running oil piles through our Lakes, they should be sharing more of that profit. 

Also this obviously got a lot of attention given the contrast of what was and still is happening in Flint. 

It's one of the most valuable resources IN THE WORLD.  To let a company unfairly profit off it is ridiculous. 

 

[Ilov80s]

Also for those not in Michigan her campaign slogan was “fix the damn roads” so she was very clear what her top priority was. She cited a study showing bad roads were costing Michigan drivers $500 a year so I think her position is the gas tax will improve roads and balance out the tax by reducing the costs drivers face from poor road conditions. 

 

[jabarony]

Apologies in advance as I'm only a layman on road construction & maintenance.  That being said, I swear Michigan roads are repaired using crushed sea shells + chewing gum.  Same stretches of road get repaired every 5 years.  

Also, I believe that $ saved in repairs figure is way overblown.   I've never heard any of my friends or family ever have a major repair due to road damage. Even cumulative damage no way adds up to $500/year.  

I heard on the radio today that MI allows heavier than ideal truck weight limits vs other states. Perhaps look at that, first?

And how about getting some kind of quality standards written into the contracts with the road construction companies? Your roads fall apart too quick, you lose $.  Maybe pick up the phone to OH DOT and see who they use?

While i could afford the extra $10 per week (Look at me!), I'd rather take my chances on pocketing that $ and risking repairs.  Color me skeptical, but I get the feeling they'll tack on 45cents/gallon and the damn roads still won't get fixed.

 

[jabarony]

Also, I'd be surprised if Whitmer would even pull the trigger on something like this. "I took $500 from you for a slight improvement in comfort during your commute" isn't the hottest campaign slogan I could think of come re-election time.

 

[msommer]

I'm not sure what "breaks" you're referring to.  As already mentioned, it's illegal to run dyed diesel on public roads.  

The breaks @parasaurolophus refered to

Are they there or not?

In either case I support taxing the hell out of diesel in proportion with additional road wear

 

[msommer]

I think water is a challenge because it moves so who is to say exactly who the water belongs to but ultimately Michigan’s most valuable resource is it’s access to an abundance of fresh water but we have done a lot in the name of profit to potentially jeopardize that. There’s concerns about oil pipelines leaking into the Great Lakes. Even my former House Rep who was a form conservative expressed his concern over the lack of oversight that the oil companies were providing for the old pipelines. It seems to me that if companies want to profit by selling water they pull out of our rivers or running oil piles through our Lakes, they should be sharing more of that profit. 

Also this obviously got a lot of attention given the contrast of what was and still is happening in Flint. 

In a not too distant future water rights will have more value than the rights to drill for fossil fuels

 

[msommer]

Apologies in advance as I'm only a layman on road construction & maintenance.

Also, I believe that $ saved in repairs figure is way overblown

Right, that's like just your opinion, guy

(The calculation of such costs is actually pretty complex and I'm not an expert either, but let's maybe trust in the people who do this type of calculations for a living and hear from them?)

 

[Snorkelson]

I have to plan my route around town- ie I stay in the right lane until I get here then I move over to the left lane- to avoid potholes on a daily basis. I am one Michigander who has had additional costs due to crap roads over the last few years, not quite $500 a year but pretty close (~$1300/3 year period). I’ve had several close encounters when a car next to me suddenly swerved into my lane to avoid a pothole, and probably have been the one straddling a pothole as well. Some days this winter they haven’t plowed or put salt down due to budget constraints. 

What are roads in Wisconsin/Minnesota like? I’ve thought weather- namely water getting in small cracks, expanding when it turns to ice, thawing again, etc until it breaks apart, is the biggest culprit. Do other northern states have these issues?

 

[msommer]

I have to plan my route around town- ie I stay in the right lane until I get here then I move over to the left lane- to avoid potholes on a daily basis. I am one Michigander who has had additional costs due to crap roads over the last few years, not quite $500 a year but pretty close (~$1300/3 year period). I’ve had several close encounters when a car next to me suddenly swerved into my lane to avoid a pothole, and probably have been the one straddling a pothole as well. Some days this winter they haven’t plowed or put salt down due to budget constraints. 

What are roads in Wisconsin/Minnesota like? I’ve thought weather- namely water getting in small cracks, expanding when it turns to ice, thawing again, etc until it breaks apart, is the biggest culprit. Do other northern states have these issues?

I believe the calculations average out items like time spent extra due to repair related congestion, accidents caused by road surface etc.

Some of that might even be theoretical (if you get an extra 10 minutes a day do you use it for something productive or  Netflix).

 

[Snorkelson]

I believe the calculations average out items like time spent extra due to repair related congestion, accidents caused by road surface etc.

Some of that might even be theoretical (if you get an extra 10 minutes a day do you use it for something productive or  Netflix).

Mine are pretty tangible- Having to replace a bent rim and other repairs due to banging down the road. I’m not being that creative- these were directly caused by hitting potholes in the spring. Add in that stuff and I blow $500 out of the water. 

 

[msommer]

Mine are pretty tangible- Having to replace a bent rim and other repairs due to banging down the road. I’m not being that creative- these were directly caused by hitting potholes in the spring. Add in that stuff and I blow $500 out of the water. 

Yes, but the tricky thing is, perhaps your neighbor didn't. So it's a pretty data intensive and complicated calculation that needs to average over a lot of road users. Probably some estimates and methodology issues on top.

Which is why you get stuff like jabarony's post above

 

[Ilov80s]

I believe the $500 a year includes car damage and lost work time due to delays.

 

[supermike80]

Apologies in advance as I'm only a layman on road construction & maintenance.  That being said, I swear Michigan roads are repaired using crushed sea shells + chewing gum.  Same stretches of road get repaired every 5 years.  

Also, I believe that $ saved in repairs figure is way overblown.   I've never heard any of my friends or family ever have a major repair due to road damage. Even cumulative damage no way adds up to $500/year.  

I heard on the radio today that MI allows heavier than ideal truck weight limits vs other states. Perhaps look at that, first?

And how about getting some kind of quality standards written into the contracts with the road construction companies? Your roads fall apart too quick, you lose $.  Maybe pick up the phone to OH DOT and see who they use?

While i could afford the extra $10 per week (Look at me!), I'd rather take my chances on pocketing that $ and risking repairs.  Color me skeptical, but I get the feeling they'll tack on 45cents/gallon and the damn roads still won't get fixed.

Michigan allows up to 160,000 GVW on their vehicles, which is generally double the 80,000GVW max in most states.  However there are a few things to consider.

In order to carry that weight, trucks must have more axles.  Most 80,000GVW trucks have 2 trailer axles, in order to carry the extra weight here, you need 8 axles.  Reason, of course, is to keep the axle weight the same as any 2 axle truck on the road.  

Of course, the 160K limit means you will need one truck, instead of 2, for the same amount of product, which, in theory, reduces the number of trucks on the road, and lessens congestion.  Plus, heavy weight vehicles such as these get taxed at approx 3X the normal tax rates...so they are paying their fair share.  

Not to mention, states like Ohio, Indiana etc are starting to embrace this concept. You can run heavy in these states as well.   

 

[jabarony]

Michigan allows up to 160,000 GVW on their vehicles, which is generally double the 80,000GVW max in most states.  However there are a few things to consider.

In order to carry that weight, trucks must have more axles.  Most 80,000GVW trucks have 2 trailer axles, in order to carry the extra weight here, you need 8 axles.  Reason, of course, is to keep the axle weight the same as any 2 axle truck on the road.  

Of course, the 160K limit means you will need one truck, instead of 2, for the same amount of product, which, in theory, reduces the number of trucks on the road, and lessens congestion.  Plus, heavy weight vehicles such as these get taxed at approx 3X the normal tax rates...so they are paying their fair share.  

Not to mention, states like Ohio, Indiana etc are starting to embrace this concept. You can run heavy not these states as well.   

Interesting. Thanks. 

 

[jabarony]

Right, that's like just your opinion, guy

(The calculation of such costs is actually pretty complex and I'm not an expert either, but let's maybe trust in the people who do this type of calculations for a living and hear from them?)

Admittedly, I have no proof other than my own experiences ($ spent), and those of friends and family.  Forgive me for being wary of a study that's currently being used to push an agenda. Also, I know plenty of people who do X for a living that just aren't very good at their jobs,  so grain of salt and all that.   No doubt bad roads equate to increased repair costs. Just the # SEEMS high. 

You brought up indirect costs, which is a good point that I had not considered when pondering that $500 number. If you are bringing indirect costs into the equation, then the # makes more sense (to ME - just to be clear).  

While the $500 figure may include indirect costs, it's not been framed that way at all in any of the radio/newspaper reporting on this. Every mention, including from Whitmer, is $500 in "repairs".

If that # is really accurate, some poor sap is really taking it hard to make up for all my years and years of no-pothole luck. 

While sceptical. I'm open to learning more on this.  If you have a link to details of the study showing indirect costs, I'd really like to read it. Easier to trust in those experts, as you suggest, if I see something more than one #.

... or did I just run into PSF snark?

 

[parasaurolophus]

Michigan allows up to 160,000 GVW on their vehicles, which is generally double the 80,000GVW max in most states.  However there are a few things to consider.

In order to carry that weight, trucks must have more axles.  Most 80,000GVW trucks have 2 trailer axles, in order to carry the extra weight here, you need 8 axles.  Reason, of course, is to keep the axle weight the same as any 2 axle truck on the road.  

Of course, the 160K limit means you will need one truck, instead of 2, for the same amount of product, which, in theory, reduces the number of trucks on the road, and lessens congestion.  Plus, heavy weight vehicles such as these get taxed at approx 3X the normal tax rates...so they are paying their fair share.  

Not to mention, states like Ohio, Indiana etc are starting to embrace this concept. You can run heavy in these states as well.   

This analysis is good in theory but it falsely assumes that all of these axles are always in contact with the road at an even distribution. Scales are flat. Roads arent. Bad roads obviously arent either. It also assumes weights on the load itself dont shift. Tanker trucks obviously shift like crazy. 

Correct me if i am wrong, but i think michigan allows lift axles to count for this which makes even distribution even less likely. 

 

[msommer]

Admittedly, I have no proof other than my own experiences ($ spent), and those of friends and family.  Forgive me for being wary of a study that's currently being used to push an agenda. Also, I know plenty of people who do X for a living that just aren't very good at their jobs,  so grain of salt and all that.   No doubt bad roads equate to increased repair costs. Just the # SEEMS high. 

You brought up indirect costs, which is a good point that I had not considered when pondering that $500 number. If you are bringing indirect costs into the equation, then the # makes more sense (to ME - just to be clear).  

While the $500 figure may include indirect costs, it's not been framed that way at all in any of the radio/newspaper reporting on this. Every mention, including from Whitmer, is $500 in "repairs".

If that # is really accurate, some poor sap is really taking it hard to make up for all my years and years of no-pothole luck. 

While sceptical. I'm open to learning more on this.  If you have a link to details of the study showing indirect costs, I'd really like to read it. Easier to trust in those experts, as you suggest, if I see something more than one #.

... or did I just run into PSF snark?

Absolutely you should look for more info on methodology and assumptions (if you look at my exchange with @Snorkelson I'm hinting broadly in that direction).

We should all do that and then reach our own conclusions for most of the numbers the politicians want to sell us. It's just harder in some cases than others. 

If there is no real debate on the $500 number then all you are left with is your own gut feeling, obviously

And no, wasn't trying to be snarky more than you were trying to extrapolate from your own anecdotal data point(s)

 

[Amused to Death]

Apologies in advance as I'm only a layman on road construction & maintenance.  That being said, I swear Michigan roads are repaired using crushed sea shells + chewing gum.  Same stretches of road get repaired every 5 years.  

Also, I believe that $ saved in repairs figure is way overblown.   I've never heard any of my friends or family ever have a major repair due to road damage. Even cumulative damage no way adds up to $500/year.  

I heard on the radio today that MI allows heavier than ideal truck weight limits vs other states. Perhaps look at that, first?

And how about getting some kind of quality standards written into the contracts with the road construction companies? Your roads fall apart too quick, you lose $.  Maybe pick up the phone to OH DOT and see who they use?

While i could afford the extra $10 per week (Look at me!), I'd rather take my chances on pocketing that $ and risking repairs.  Color me skeptical, but I get the feeling they'll tack on 45cents/gallon and the damn roads still won't get fixed.

I'm not sure about MI, but the asphalt type should be approved by the agency.  It's really not up to the contractor.  

 

[BobbyLayne]

Do the roads need to be fixed? 

If so, what would be the best way to pay for it? 

Biggest pot holes you'll ever see.

 

[supermike80]

This analysis is good in theory but it falsely assumes that all of these axles are always in contact with the road at an even distribution. Scales are flat. Roads arent. Bad roads obviously arent either. It also assumes weights on the load itself dont shift. Tanker trucks obviously shift like crazy. 

Correct me if i am wrong, but i think michigan allows lift axles to count for this which makes even distribution even less likely. 

That argument is weak because that can be said for any trailer configuration.  It doesn't matter if it has 2 axles or 8 axles..Roads aren't flat. Loads shift.  

Not sure about your comment about lift axles.  Yes on 8 axle trailers, you can lift three of the axles....No need to burn tires when you are empty.  If you are loaded and those axles aren;t down, you get fined...in the thousands of dollars.

 

[Snorkelson]

Absolutely you should look for more info on methodology and assumptions (if you look at my exchange with @Snorkelson I'm hinting broadly in that direction).

We should all do that and then reach our own conclusions for most of the numbers the politicians want to sell us. It's just harder in some cases than others. 

If there is no real debate on the $500 number then all you are left with is your own gut feeling, obviously

And no, wasn't trying to be snarky more than you were trying to extrapolate from your own anecdotal data point(s)

100% agree that studies/articles in general need to be looked at for agenda skew. But things like tie rods and u joints that need eventual maintenance may need it sooner, lost production etc may inflate the number but are tangible costs as well and shouldn’t be dismissed over semantics of what they are claiming, repairs vs costs. 

 

[Ilov80s]

Biggest pot holes you'll ever see.

The roads are fine

 

[Snorkelson]

I drive like 2 miles to work, from the east side of Lansing into east Lansing, maybe I need to record the drive and post it on YouTube shuke style for you to see just how stupid it is. I have to weave all over the place to straddle or changed lanes about 5 times to strategically dodge them, and some I just have to drive over, on the side streets. Can’t do much to avoid it. 

 

[BobbyLayne]

I drive like 2 miles to work, from the east side of Lansing into east Lansing, maybe I need to record the drive and post it on YouTube shuke style for you to see just how stupid it is. I have to weave all over the place to straddle or changed lanes about 5 times to strategically dodge them, and some I just have to drive over, on the side streets. Can’t do much to avoid it. 

Avoiding potholes in Michigan could be a competitive sport.

STUDY: Michigan has the worst roads in the U.S.\

(interestingly, the study found no correlation between gas taxes, amount spent on road repairs and the quality of roads)

Why Aren't Michigan's High Gas Taxes Fixing Our Roads

The officer in this photo is 6'5"

Potholes frustrating drivers across Mid-Michigan

Survey - Where are the Worst Potholes in SE Michigan

Is this Michigan's Largest Pothole?

*yup, that's  yellow school bus

Detroit rapper vents about Michigan potholes in new video

Not all heroes wear capes

(all links from Feb or Mar 2019)

 

[The Narrator]

This isnt true at all. It unfairly taxes people that drive regular cars to pay for the damage caused by construction. 

Car people are the most entitled people. 

Anything we can do to discourage single occupancy vehicles and less driving is good. Driving cars is terrible for the environment, it's really expensive, and infrastructure for it dominates our urban planning. Getting off cars would be better for our collective health, wealth, and the planet. So please, tax them at least a fraction of a percentage more, it still won't be nearly enough to cover the cost we spend on them. 

(the only thing that annoys me about this gas tax is that it's pretty regressive, and the way we've designed our cities essentially requires people to own and operate a car)

 

[Da Guru]

It has never been about the gas tax as Michigan has always been taxed in the top 5-6 in the nation.  It is about appropriating the gas tax for roads.  Although Michigan is taxed right now at #6 they are #33 in using the tax for the roads.  

 

[Ilov80s]

Car people are the most entitled people. 

Anything we can do to discourage single occupancy vehicles and less driving is good. Driving cars is terrible for the environment, it's really expensive, and infrastructure for it dominates our urban planning. Getting off cars would be better for our collective health, wealth, and the planet. So please, tax them at least a fraction of a percentage more, it still won't be nearly enough to cover the cost we spend on them. 

(the only thing that annoys me about this gas tax is that it's pretty regressive, and the way we've designed our cities essentially requires people to own and operate a car)

Michigan really doesn’t have reliable public transportation. We had a proposal a couple years ago to infest a lot in a rail system to link Detroit with neighboring counties but it was voted down. My mom voted no because “I don’t go to Detroit so I don’t need it and I certainly don’t want people from Detroit (black people) coming here.”

 

[parasaurolophus]

Car people are the most entitled people. 

Anything we can do to discourage single occupancy vehicles and less driving is good. Driving cars is terrible for the environment, it's really expensive, and infrastructure for it dominates our urban planning. Getting off cars would be better for our collective health, wealth, and the planet. So please, tax them at least a fraction of a percentage more, it still won't be nearly enough to cover the cost we spend on them. 

(the only thing that annoys me about this gas tax is that it's pretty regressive, and the way we've designed our cities essentially requires people to own and operate a car)

So you propose we all live in big cities? Sounds neat. 

Or are you proposing that we have a huge grid of buses traveling all over the burbs? Yeah, that will be great for the roads. Ever wonder why bus stops all have much stronger concrete pads underneath? 

Buses run empty enough as it is. Cant even imagine how inefficient a massive grid of them would be. 

 

[msommer]

So you propose we all live in big cities? Sounds neat. 

Or are you proposing that we have a huge grid of buses traveling all over the burbs? Yeah, that will be great for the roads. Ever wonder why bus stops all have much stronger concrete pads underneath? 

Buses run empty enough as it is. Cant even imagine how inefficient a massive grid of them would be. 

As inefficient as a massive grid of roads that needs maintenance to every nook and cranny? Y'all want infrastructure? Well, infrastructure has a cost. The fewer that share it the higher it gets. 

So, roadpricing anyone? Pay per use?

 

[parasaurolophus]

As inefficient as a massive grid of roads that needs maintenance to every nook and cranny? Y'all want infrastructure? Well, infrastructure has a cost. The fewer that share it the higher it gets. 

So, roadpricing anyone? Pay per use?

And we are back to where we were before. Discussing how damage to roads comes from heavy vehicles. Not passenger cars. 

 

[msommer]

And we are back to where we were before. Discussing how damage to roads comes from heavy vehicles. Not passenger cars. 

<no we ar enot. Now you are demanding roads to low population density locales. Let the users pay - all the users

 

[parasaurolophus]

<no we ar enot. Now you are demanding roads to low population density locales. Let the users pay - all the users

Lol. Now we are to where you move goal posts. Have a good one.