Mike Vick (1 Viewer)

[phillymatrix]

Alright,I'm no Vick fan but I believe this will be the year he finally pulls it all together. I will support this reasoning,but first let me say that by "pulling it all together" i'm not talking about Vick becoming the next Steve Young in his prime with better running skills. I think to examine Vick we have to break him down into what he really is at this stage in his career, and what we have left without all the sneaker ads and marketing is a great athlete and (at this point anyway) an average NfL qb. Now keep in mind that just to be a NFL qb takes amazing ability much less a starter so don't take the term "average" as a Vick insult. At this point i'm beginning to wonder myself am I for or against this guy,but what gives me hope for Vick besides all the "he has all the potential in the world " talk we hear every year is

1) this is the best crop of receivers he has ever had at his disposal,and no I don't believe Roddy White will be the next Sterling Sharpe any time soon but I believe he will be a solid target for Vick and he has the speed to get down field and will definetly be a upgrade over former #1 Peerless Price which can only help to aid Crumplers effectivness as well.

2) Vick wants to and most likely will run more this year which makes me more nervous about him than anything else.Vick's very light in the pants compared to most NFL qbs at only 6ft 215lbs he is never going to be mistaken for Culpepper in physique,but you have to let Mike be Mike and his running ability, when he's fully healthy (and he claims he is ) puts the S on his chest that was missing last year.

3) The coaching staff wants to utilize Mike in more shotgun formations this year;an excellent idea for him because honestly Mikes skills at reading defenses are subpar and at times he seems to need more time to survey the whole field.This will aid him in his rushing options also.

4) Last years Falcon defense caused Mike to have to go the length of the field to many times.Vick will excel with a shorter field to travel that allows him to use the threat of his legs to keep defenses back.The pick up of John Abrahams from the Jets was an excellent pick up and will greatly help his cause. I live in N.Y. and know this guy is close to being an elite pass rusher. A falcon defense that performs like the one from the previous year equals Milke as a top five qb candidate or very close to it .

5) And finally; Vick got another qb coach terminated last year,being Vicks qb coach has become the position where you don't quit your day job.It seems the entire staff is feeling a little pressure to get more out of all this " unilimited potential" that Vick has;expect Mora to use his best weapon on offense to his maximum potential .

Well ... thats it.Like I stated I'm not expecting Vick to turn into Steve Young but I am expecting" around "220 passing yds a game, 80 rushing yards and about 2 tds a game from his arms and or his legs. I 'd appreciate opinions.

Edit: Had to add a few returns in there for you.

 

[valence]

is your enter key broken?

 

[JohnnyU]

It said, press any key to continue. I don't see an any key on my computer

Vick couldn't hit the ocean if he was standing 3 feet from it.

 

[TS Garp]

I am expecting" around "220 passing yds a game, 80 rushing yards and about 2 tds a game from his arms and or his legs. I 'd appreciate opinions.

You're projecting Vick to pass for about 600 yards than he's ever had in a season, and to rush for almost 1300 yards. I'm more optimistic than some about his prospects for this season, but that's a little over-the-top. There's a good disucssion about him HERE.

 

[AnonymousBob]

Them's a lot of words. I do think he will be top ten, yet again.

 

[devilscl]

He might be slightly better but in all leagues that I'v seen always been overrated

 

[AnonymousBob]

He might be slightly better but in all leagues that I'v seen always been overrated

By what do you mean overrated? Finishing #8 ppg (10 overall) is overrated? If anything, I think this year he's actually going to be UNDERrated in many leagues.

 

[cstu]

I'm inclined to agree with you, but I can't read that mess. Please learn to use the <ENTER> key.

 

[devilscl]

Seems there always someone in my drafts that will reach for him before safer RB's

 

[John Mamula]

Just as a reminder, my offer still stands to never post here again if Michael Vick is ever the #1 fantasy QB.

 

[Noahs Troopers]

It said, press any key to continue. I don't see an any key on my computer

Vick couldn't hit the ocean if he was standing 3 feet from it.

Old, corny and boring.

 

[AnonymousBob]

Just as a reminder, my offer still stands to never post here again if Michael Vick is ever the #1 fantasy QB.

That seems silly to think he won't. He's already finished top five. To finish as the #1 guy, the qb needs to either pass the ball an insane amount (Peyton is the only guy who even comes close) or run quite a bit. Who are the qb's that do a fair amount of running? Carr? Culpepper? McNabb, Vick...I'm certainly not predicting him to finish #1 but I would not be shocked were he to do so.

 

[cstu]

Just as a reminder, my offer still stands to never post here again if Michael Vick is ever the #1 fantasy QB.

I don't know why it's that hard to imagine. He was 32 points behind Culpepper for #1 in 2002 despite missing a game. All it would take is him passing a little better and staying healthy all 16 games.

 

[Kleck]

Hyperbole with this guy is getting way too old. Why do we have to exacerbate and overstate every analysis of Vick?

 

[SSOG]

The last three times he entered the season healthy, Vick finished 3rd, 12th, and 9th. Vick is currently ranked 12th on average by the FBGs. Sounds like decent value this year.

To be honest, I like the offensive switch a lot. The whole point of the WCO is to take advantage of QBs with great accuracy but less zip. It relies on a lot of shorter routes and quicker releases, which means that QBs need quick reaction times. It also leaves defenders clustered more towards the LoS. Now, Vick isn't the most accurate of QBs, and he isn't the best of decision makers, and he has a rocket for an arm, and clustering defenders close to the LoS takes away a ton of the threat of him running. So basically, he was in the worst possible offense for his skillset. Any change is an improvement.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

I think it's amusing that people are quick to throw out "overrated" when talking about Vick as a FF QB, when that flies in the face of the facts. He often seems to go lower than his production warrants in drafts I either participate in or follow.

I also hear how inconsistent Vick is & how that's a team-killer in FF. He's no less consistent than guys like Hasselbeck or Trent Green. In my league last year, those three finished within 2 ppg of each other. Taking each player's average ppg & using a completely arbitrary 5 points as a marker, Vick missed his average by more than 5 pts 5 times (twice higher, three times lower). Green also missed his average 5 times (2 times higher, 3 lower). Hasselbeck missed his 6 times (3 x both higher & lower). Yet we don't have nearly the outcry of "Mr Inconsistency!!" applied to MH & Green that we do with Vick.

I think some confuse media overexposure with someone being overrated in FF. Even at Antsports (whose drafts seem more guppified to me), he's been going as the 9th QB over the last couple of weeks.

 

[Osaurus]

So is Vick going to pass to Vick? Vick pitch to Vick? Vick hands off to Vick? Did Mora Jr. clone Vick?

 

[Banger]

He might be slightly better but in all leagues that I'v seen always been overrated

By what do you mean overrated? Finishing #8 ppg (10 overall) is overrated? If anything, I think this year he's actually going to be UNDERrated in many leagues.

Have never been a Vick fan but I agree that this may be the 1st time that he may actually outperform his draft position. I would LOVE to somehow grab him to pair up with Bledsoe in the mid rounds....

 

[joffer]

Hyperbole with this guy is getting way too old. Why do we have to exacerbate and overstate every analysis of Vick?

1. most of the good hyperbole comes from ESPN2. most of the bad hyperbole comes from the people that resent him because of #1.

3. I agree it's a shame that we can't just talk about him like another young, developing QB

 

[joffer]

I've got him QB12 right now, but he's within 10 total points of QB6.

 

[SSOG]

He might be slightly better but in all leagues that I'v seen always been overrated

By what do you mean overrated? Finishing #8 ppg (10 overall) is overrated? If anything, I think this year he's actually going to be UNDERrated in many leagues.

Have never been a Vick fan but I agree that this may be the 1st time that he may actually outperform his draft position. I would LOVE to somehow grab him to pair up with Bledsoe in the mid rounds....

Vick outperformed his draft position last year in every league I got him in. He usually went as the 10th QB or lower, but he finished up at QB9.

 

[Meatwad]

I know this means nothing, but the last 2 times Vick was my QB, I won my league. 2K2 & 2K5.

 

[The Football Freak]

b

He might be slightly better but in all leagues that I'v seen always been overrated

By what do you mean overrated? Finishing #8 ppg (10 overall) is overrated? If anything, I think this year he's actually going to be UNDERrated in many leagues.

Have never been a Vick fan but I agree that this may be the 1st time that he may actually outperform his draft position. I would LOVE to somehow grab him to pair up with Bledsoe in the mid rounds....

Vick outperformed his draft position last year in every league I got him in. He usually went as the 10th QB or lower, but he finished up at QB9.

In my league he ended up the 14th QB. He passed for ~2400 yards 15/13 with a 73 QB rating. Luckily he ran for 600 yards and 6 TDs to help him out, but he just doesn't look good to me. If I could get him as the 18th QB I would pull the trigger, but I just don't trust his ability as a QB. He's been in the league for a number of years now and I think he just is the QB that he is and there won't be a lot of growth in the passing game. Personally, I would like to see Shaub under center OR a more polished passing Vick (a chance that goes down with each year of no improvement) with a dynamic RB that has Dunn's ability with more size to pound at the goal-line. I also have a problem with his running as I believe that with the pounding he takes from exiting the pocket so much you lose many solid years that could be tacked on at the end of his career. He is amazing at running, but it will grind him down and greatly shorten his career. He has had a couple very nice fantasy years under his belt, but as a QB, he is just not going to get faster or more durable with age.

 

[diesel7982]

b

He might be slightly better but in all leagues that I'v seen always been overrated

By what do you mean overrated? Finishing #8 ppg (10 overall) is overrated? If anything, I think this year he's actually going to be UNDERrated in many leagues.

Have never been a Vick fan but I agree that this may be the 1st time that he may actually outperform his draft position. I would LOVE to somehow grab him to pair up with Bledsoe in the mid rounds....

Vick outperformed his draft position last year in every league I got him in. He usually went as the 10th QB or lower, but he finished up at QB9.

In my league he ended up the 14th QB. He passed for ~2400 yards 15/13 with a 73 QB rating. Luckily he ran for 600 yards and 6 TDs to help him out, but he just doesn't look good to me. If I could get him as the 18th QB I would pull the trigger, but I just don't trust his ability as a QB. He's been in the league for a number of years now and I think he just is the QB that he is and there won't be a lot of growth in the passing game. Personally, I would like to see Shaub under center OR a more polished passing Vick (a chance that goes down with each year of no improvement) with a dynamic RB that has Dunn's ability with more size to pound at the goal-line. I also have a problem with his running as I believe that with the pounding he takes from exiting the pocket so much you lose many solid years that could be tacked on at the end of his career. He is amazing at running, but it will grind him down and greatly shorten his career. He has had a couple very nice fantasy years under his belt, but as a QB, he is just not going to get faster or more durable with age.

Im not sure how one thing you typed there affects his ability to be a top 10 QB. Is he a bad passer? Yes.

Does that matter? No.

His running may shorten his career, but as you said, he is not a pocket QB, and he won't have a career to speak of if he doesnt run. As long as hes running, hes a safe bet to finish well ahead of the 18th you want to take him at.

 

[The Football Freak]

b

He might be slightly better but in all leagues that I'v seen always been overrated

By what do you mean overrated? Finishing #8 ppg (10 overall) is overrated? If anything, I think this year he's actually going to be UNDERrated in many leagues.

Have never been a Vick fan but I agree that this may be the 1st time that he may actually outperform his draft position. I would LOVE to somehow grab him to pair up with Bledsoe in the mid rounds....

Vick outperformed his draft position last year in every league I got him in. He usually went as the 10th QB or lower, but he finished up at QB9.

In my league he ended up the 14th QB. He passed for ~2400 yards 15/13 with a 73 QB rating. Luckily he ran for 600 yards and 6 TDs to help him out, but he just doesn't look good to me. If I could get him as the 18th QB I would pull the trigger, but I just don't trust his ability as a QB. He's been in the league for a number of years now and I think he just is the QB that he is and there won't be a lot of growth in the passing game. Personally, I would like to see Shaub under center OR a more polished passing Vick (a chance that goes down with each year of no improvement) with a dynamic RB that has Dunn's ability with more size to pound at the goal-line. I also have a problem with his running as I believe that with the pounding he takes from exiting the pocket so much you lose many solid years that could be tacked on at the end of his career. He is amazing at running, but it will grind him down and greatly shorten his career. He has had a couple very nice fantasy years under his belt, but as a QB, he is just not going to get faster or more durable with age.

Im not sure how one thing you typed there affects his ability to be a top 10 QB. Is he a bad passer? Yes.

Does that matter? No.

His running may shorten his career, but as you said, he is not a pocket QB, and he won't have a career to speak of if he doesnt run. As long as hes running, hes a safe bet to finish well ahead of the 18th you want to take him at.

It does because I think Mora will balk at letting Vick run for more than 600 or an absolute max of 800 because of durability concerns. I just think his running stats have maxed out and his passing abilities are not showing any improvement. Maybe with age he could mature as a passer, but he may not get the chance with the pounding he has already taken. Last years stats feel indicative to me of where he will be most years from now on since opposing teams can gameplan against his scrambling and he is not a good enough QB to take advantage of that and pad his passing stats to push him into the top ten again. As he gets incrimentally slower and less explosive with age I think his passing stats could suffer even more. He may have peaked early.

 

[SSOG]

In my league he ended up the 14th QB. He passed for ~2400 yards 15/13 with a 73 QB rating. Luckily he ran for 600 yards and 6 TDs to help him out, but he just doesn't look good to me. If I could get him as the 18th QB I would pull the trigger, but I just don't trust his ability as a QB. He's been in the league for a number of years now and I think he just is the QB that he is and there won't be a lot of growth in the passing game. Personally, I would like to see Shaub under center OR a more polished passing Vick (a chance that goes down with each year of no improvement) with a dynamic RB that has Dunn's ability with more size to pound at the goal-line.

I also have a problem with his running as I believe that with the pounding he takes from exiting the pocket so much you lose many solid years that could be tacked on at the end of his career. He is amazing at running, but it will grind him down and greatly shorten his career. He has had a couple very nice fantasy years under his belt, but as a QB, he is just not going to get faster or more durable with age.

First off, I don't think there's anything "lucky" about the fact that Vick ran for 600 yards and 6 TDs. It's not like all of a sudden Vick accidentally turned into a rushing threat. We all drafted him EXPECTING rushing numbers, and he delivered them. Vick doesn't "luckily" rush for 600 any more than Peyton "luckily" passes for 4000.Second off... I agree that his style isn't optimal. I agree that he'll either settle down or get his career cut short. I don't know why this should concern me in a redraft league, where I'm only worried about this season.

It does because I think Mora will balk at letting Vick run for more than 600 or an absolute max of 800 because of durability concerns. I just think his running stats have maxed out and his passing abilities are not showing any improvement. Maybe with age he could mature as a passer, but he may not get the chance with the pounding he has already taken. Last years stats feel indicative to me of where he will be most years from now on since opposing teams can gameplan against his scrambling and he is not a good enough QB to take advantage of that and pad his passing stats to push him into the top ten again. As he gets incrimentally slower and less explosive with age I think his passing stats could suffer even more. He may have peaked early.

I think the last couple of years represent a low value of his rushing potential. He was playing in a scheme designed to cluster defenders near the line of scrimmage. What's the best way to handle a rushing QB? Cluster defenders near the line of scrimmage. Basically, he was playing in a scheme that negated a huge portion of his running ability. I mean, think about it honestly... how does Vick average fewer than 6 yards per attempt? I mean, it takes a lot of WORK for Michael Vick to rush that poorly. It doesn't happen by chance, it requires some serious ineptitude at the hands of the offensive staff for such an event to transpire. If Vick gets 100 carries next season, I expect him to get 800 yards at the least.Also, I think Steve Young and Randall Cunningham are both good parrallels for Vick. Both were fantasy beasts. Both had their careers cut short due to injury. Steve Young, in his first full season as a starter, ran 76/537/4. In his last full season as a starter, he ran for 70/454/6. He topped 50 carries (or was on pace to do so) in 13 of his 15 seasons (despite spending a huge chunk of them as a backup). As for Randall Cunningham... well, he either topped 60 carries or was ON PACE to top 60 carries in his second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, eighth, ninth, and tenth seasons. His 7th season he was lost after 4 passing attempts. Ironically enough, it wasn't his rushing that did him in, as he didn't have a single rushing attempt on the season.

As you can see, I think the precedent is certainly in place for a rushing QB to *remain* a strong rushing force for almost a decade.

Edit: Also, could you imagine a coach moving Reggie Bush to cornerback because they're afraid of injury risks? NO WAY. There is ONE REASON Michael Vick is a starting QB right now, and it's his rushing abilities. No coach would curtail that, any more than they'd curtail Bush's running out of concern for durability. If you're going to tell Vick not to run, you might as well just replace him with a cheaper, better QB.

 

[JohnnyU]

It said, press any key to continue.  I don't see an any key on my computer

Vick couldn't hit the ocean if he was standing 3 feet from it.

Old, corny and boring.

Maybe the part about the "any key", but Vick is constantly overrated and that isn't boring to talk about. It's true, he can't hit the Ocean standing 3 feet from it.

 

[Big Score]

Vick is constantly overrated and that isn't boring to talk about.

After hearing this same thing repeated ad infinitum...yeah...it is boring to talk about!

It's true, he can't hit the Ocean standing 3 feet from it.

This too, is just more of the same old worn out, mind numbingly boring, shtick!

 

[cstu]

b

He might be slightly better but in all leagues that I'v seen always been overrated

By what do you mean overrated? Finishing #8 ppg (10 overall) is overrated? If anything, I think this year he's actually going to be UNDERrated in many leagues.

Have never been a Vick fan but I agree that this may be the 1st time that he may actually outperform his draft position. I would LOVE to somehow grab him to pair up with Bledsoe in the mid rounds....

Vick outperformed his draft position last year in every league I got him in. He usually went as the 10th QB or lower, but he finished up at QB9.

In my league he ended up the 14th QB. He passed for ~2400 yards 15/13 with a 73 QB rating. Luckily he ran for 600 yards and 6 TDs to help him out, but he just doesn't look good to me. If I could get him as the 18th QB I would pull the trigger, but I just don't trust his ability as a QB. He's been in the league for a number of years now and I think he just is the QB that he is and there won't be a lot of growth in the passing game. Personally, I would like to see Shaub under center OR a more polished passing Vick (a chance that goes down with each year of no improvement) with a dynamic RB that has Dunn's ability with more size to pound at the goal-line. I also have a problem with his running as I believe that with the pounding he takes from exiting the pocket so much you lose many solid years that could be tacked on at the end of his career. He is amazing at running, but it will grind him down and greatly shorten his career. He has had a couple very nice fantasy years under his belt, but as a QB, he is just not going to get faster or more durable with age.

Im not sure how one thing you typed there affects his ability to be a top 10 QB. Is he a bad passer? Yes.

Does that matter? No.

His running may shorten his career, but as you said, he is not a pocket QB, and he won't have a career to speak of if he doesnt run. As long as hes running, hes a safe bet to finish well ahead of the 18th you want to take him at.

It does because I think Mora will balk at letting Vick run for more than 600 or an absolute max of 800 because of durability concerns. I just think his running stats have maxed out and his passing abilities are not showing any improvement. Maybe with age he could mature as a passer, but he may not get the chance with the pounding he has already taken. Last years stats feel indicative to me of where he will be most years from now on since opposing teams can gameplan against his scrambling and he is not a good enough QB to take advantage of that and pad his passing stats to push him into the top ten again. As he gets incrimentally slower and less explosive with age I think his passing stats could suffer even more. He may have peaked early.

You could have said the same thing about Michael Jordan 5 years into his career.

 

[Jous]

I'm sick of Vick....the media keeps forcing us upon him, talking about him every chance they get since 2002. He's not worth all the attention he always gets....there are a lot of QB's in the league better than him.

Off the top of my head...

Brady

Peyton Manning

Brees

Favre

Palmer

Roethlisberger

McNabb

Plummer

Culpepper

Delhomme

Hasslebeck

Warner

 

[adrenaline]

When I read -Mike Vick, I Believe This Will Be It- I thought you were going to say he should to switch to WR & Schaub should to take over @ QB.

 

[JohnnyU]

Vick is constantly overrated and that isn't boring to talk about.

After hearing this same thing repeated ad infinitum...yeah...it is boring to talk about!

It's true, he can't hit the Ocean standing 3 feet from it.

This too, is just more of the same old worn out, mind numbingly boring, shtick!

Then give us some new metaphors to describe Vick.

 

[The Football Freak]

In my league he ended up the 14th QB.  He passed for ~2400 yards 15/13 with a 73 QB rating.  Luckily he ran for 600 yards and 6 TDs to help him out, but he just doesn't look good to me.  If I could get him as the 18th QB I would pull the trigger, but I just don't trust his ability as a QB.  He's been in the league for a number of years now and I think he just is the QB that he is and there won't be a lot of growth in the passing game.  Personally, I would like to see Shaub under center OR a more polished passing Vick (a chance that goes down with each year of no improvement) with a dynamic RB that has Dunn's ability with more size to pound at the goal-line. 

I also have a problem with his running as I believe that with the pounding he takes from exiting the pocket so much you lose many solid years that could be tacked on at the end of his career.  He is amazing at running, but it will grind him down and greatly shorten his career.  He has had a couple very nice fantasy years under his belt, but as a QB, he is just not going to get faster or more durable with age.

First off, I don't think there's anything "lucky" about the fact that Vick ran for 600 yards and 6 TDs. It's not like all of a sudden Vick accidentally turned into a rushing threat. We all drafted him EXPECTING rushing numbers, and he delivered them. Vick doesn't "luckily" rush for 600 any more than Peyton "luckily" passes for 4000.Second off... I agree that his style isn't optimal. I agree that he'll either settle down or get his career cut short. I don't know why this should concern me in a redraft league, where I'm only worried about this season.

It does because I think Mora will balk at letting Vick run for more than 600 or an absolute max of 800 because of durability concerns.  I just think his running stats have maxed out and his passing abilities are not showing any improvement.  Maybe with age he could mature as a passer, but he may not get the chance with the pounding he has already taken.  Last years stats feel indicative to me of where he will be most years from now on since opposing teams can gameplan against his scrambling and he is not a good enough QB to take advantage of that and pad his passing stats to push him into the top ten again.  As he gets incrimentally slower and less explosive with age I think his passing stats could suffer even more.  He may have peaked early.

I think the last couple of years represent a low value of his rushing potential. He was playing in a scheme designed to cluster defenders near the line of scrimmage. What's the best way to handle a rushing QB? Cluster defenders near the line of scrimmage. Basically, he was playing in a scheme that negated a huge portion of his running ability. I mean, think about it honestly... how does Vick average fewer than 6 yards per attempt? I mean, it takes a lot of WORK for Michael Vick to rush that poorly. It doesn't happen by chance, it requires some serious ineptitude at the hands of the offensive staff for such an event to transpire. If Vick gets 100 carries next season, I expect him to get 800 yards at the least.Also, I think Steve Young and Randall Cunningham are both good parrallels for Vick. Both were fantasy beasts. Both had their careers cut short due to injury. Steve Young, in his first full season as a starter, ran 76/537/4. In his last full season as a starter, he ran for 70/454/6. He topped 50 carries (or was on pace to do so) in 13 of his 15 seasons (despite spending a huge chunk of them as a backup). As for Randall Cunningham... well, he either topped 60 carries or was ON PACE to top 60 carries in his second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, eighth, ninth, and tenth seasons. His 7th season he was lost after 4 passing attempts. Ironically enough, it wasn't his rushing that did him in, as he didn't have a single rushing attempt on the season.

As you can see, I think the precedent is certainly in place for a rushing QB to *remain* a strong rushing force for almost a decade.

Edit: Also, could you imagine a coach moving Reggie Bush to cornerback because they're afraid of injury risks? NO WAY. There is ONE REASON Michael Vick is a starting QB right now, and it's his rushing abilities. No coach would curtail that, any more than they'd curtail Bush's running out of concern for durability. If you're going to tell Vick not to run, you might as well just replace him with a cheaper, better QB.

I never said it was lucky. I said he was a talented runner but he will not run for more than 800 yards in a season again if they want him to stay injury free. He is starting his 6th season this year, he has yet to play all sixteen games only hitting 15 three out of 5 years. Some of those games were started while injured and were really sub-par performances. One problem with your analogies is that all those QB's you mentioned were proficient to excellent in the passing game as well, which Vick most certainly is not. He get injured due to the running and that will take it's toll as he takes RB hits in the open field and sacks. He is a good player with some explosive abilities, but he's not a great NFL QB and, in my opinion, not going to put up elite fantasy numbers. He was 14 in my league last year and I think he doesn't do much better or worse than that. I don't think it is likely he will throw 3000+ yards with 20+TDs and 900 yards rushing, he just doesn't have the ability to set that up.

 

[The Football Freak]

b

He might be slightly better but in all leagues that I'v seen always been overrated

By what do you mean overrated? Finishing #8 ppg (10 overall) is overrated? If anything, I think this year he's actually going to be UNDERrated in many leagues.

Have never been a Vick fan but I agree that this may be the 1st time that he may actually outperform his draft position. I would LOVE to somehow grab him to pair up with Bledsoe in the mid rounds....

Vick outperformed his draft position last year in every league I got him in. He usually went as the 10th QB or lower, but he finished up at QB9.

In my league he ended up the 14th QB. He passed for ~2400 yards 15/13 with a 73 QB rating. Luckily he ran for 600 yards and 6 TDs to help him out, but he just doesn't look good to me. If I could get him as the 18th QB I would pull the trigger, but I just don't trust his ability as a QB. He's been in the league for a number of years now and I think he just is the QB that he is and there won't be a lot of growth in the passing game. Personally, I would like to see Shaub under center OR a more polished passing Vick (a chance that goes down with each year of no improvement) with a dynamic RB that has Dunn's ability with more size to pound at the goal-line. I also have a problem with his running as I believe that with the pounding he takes from exiting the pocket so much you lose many solid years that could be tacked on at the end of his career. He is amazing at running, but it will grind him down and greatly shorten his career. He has had a couple very nice fantasy years under his belt, but as a QB, he is just not going to get faster or more durable with age.

Im not sure how one thing you typed there affects his ability to be a top 10 QB. Is he a bad passer? Yes.

Does that matter? No.

His running may shorten his career, but as you said, he is not a pocket QB, and he won't have a career to speak of if he doesnt run. As long as hes running, hes a safe bet to finish well ahead of the 18th you want to take him at.

It does because I think Mora will balk at letting Vick run for more than 600 or an absolute max of 800 because of durability concerns. I just think his running stats have maxed out and his passing abilities are not showing any improvement. Maybe with age he could mature as a passer, but he may not get the chance with the pounding he has already taken. Last years stats feel indicative to me of where he will be most years from now on since opposing teams can gameplan against his scrambling and he is not a good enough QB to take advantage of that and pad his passing stats to push him into the top ten again. As he gets incrimentally slower and less explosive with age I think his passing stats could suffer even more. He may have peaked early.

You could have said the same thing about Michael Jordan 5 years into his career.

Michael Jordan was an excellent all around player. Maybe Vick would have been the Jordan of recievers or Jordan of RBs, but he is not anywhere near a Jordan level QB in the NFL. Maybe the Jordan baseball limited edition?

 

[thatguy]

Hyperbole with this guy is getting way too old. Why do we have to exacerbate and overstate every analysis of Vick?

What do you mean by 'exacerbate'? Just curious, because I'm not sure I see what you're saying. The dude gave his reasons for why Vick will be a good fantasy QB next season. It's his opinion, and nothing more. What's wrong with that? Granted, Vick has been talked about to death, but it really doesn't hurt to discuss it more, unless of course, you've seen someone else post the exact same reasons that were posted above for why Vick will outperform his draft position. It seems to me that this has turned into a quality discussion, which, if I'm not mistaken, is a good thing.

Perhaps his analysis was hyperbolic in that Vick likely won't post the numbers he projected. But I'm not sure how it exacerbates anything? Did you mean exaggerate? Because if you did, you're just being redundant. Overstate means more or less the same thing.

 

[SSOG]

I never said it was lucky. I said he was a talented runner but he will not run for more than 800 yards in a season again if they want him to stay injury free. He is starting his 6th season this year, he has yet to play all sixteen games only hitting 15 three out of 5 years. Some of those games were started while injured and were really sub-par performances.

One problem with your analogies is that all those QB's you mentioned were proficient to excellent in the passing game as well, which Vick most certainly is not. He get injured due to the running and that will take it's toll as he takes RB hits in the open field and sacks. He is a good player with some explosive abilities, but he's not a great NFL QB and, in my opinion, not going to put up elite fantasy numbers. He was 14 in my league last year and I think he doesn't do much better or worse than that. I don't think it is likely he will throw 3000+ yards with 20+TDs and 900 yards rushing, he just doesn't have the ability to set that up.

You hit the nail on the head. Cunningham and Young were both better passers than Vick. I don't get how this is a reason why Vick will run *LESS* than they will, though.Culpepper and Young's coaches could say "Hey, stay back in the pocket, you're more likely to make a play with your arm than your legs". Do you honestly see Mora telling that to Vick? Vick is far more dependent on his legs to make plays. Paying him all that money and then telling him not to run because you're afraid he might get injured would be akin to buying a $200,000 Ferrarri and then never driving it out of fear that you might get in a wreck.

 

[Shlon]

Vick had trouble against the Bucs defense previously but last year he had his 2 best games against them (both games over 100QB rating w/ one game over 300 yards passing). The Bucs are the prototypical defense (with speed) to stop Vick but they couldn't last year. I think you'll see more of that Vick this year. Vick had Mike Johnson as his QB coach since he came into the league so it's not like Vick goes through QB coaches, Musgrave will be his 2nd QB coach & I think he'll help Vick a lot. Musgrave is good working with lefties & has a proven track record. Vick also this year unlike the past is waking up early in the morning & staying late at the practice facility. He's working with receivers everyday in the offseason & working out with them, something he didn't do in the past. He's also spending a lot more time in the video room, something he also didn't do in the past. I don't expect Vick to throw for 4000 yards but I do see him throwing for 3000 (2936 yards his first season starting). Vick needs to be more consistent, needs to read defenses better, needs to work on his mechanics. But he did show some flashes last season.

 

[Big Score]

I don't think it is likely he will throw 3000+ yards with 20+TDs and 900 yards rushing, he just doesn't have the ability to set that up.

FYI The Football Freak,Micheal Vick - 2002 Season Stats- 2nd NFL Season

2,936 passing yards - 24 TD's - 777 rushing yards.

He's already been pretty darn close to doing what you don't think he has the ability to do.

 

[Dancing Bear]

Vick has had 5 years to play QB in the NFL [2001-2005]. Of the 85 potential games he could have started he has missed 20 due to injury so that he has played in a total of 65 games.

This is his average stat line:

Passing Attempts ----- 12.3

Passing Completions ----- 22.7

Completion % ----- 54.1%

Passing Yards ----- 153.1

Passing TD's ----- 0.9

Interceptions ----- 0.7

Rushing Attempts ----- 6.8

Rushing Yards ----- 48.5

Yards per Rush ----- 7.1

Rushing TD's ----- 0.3

Fumbles ----- 0.3

Fantasy Points ----- 16.0

I want to make it clear that I believe he is one of the top 5 most exciting players to watch in the NFL. Additionally, he has had an uncanny ability to win in the NFL.

With regards to Vick's performances against Tampa Bay last year, I would say a few things.

a) Tampa Bay won both games.

b) Tampa Bay's Offense owned the Altanta Defense, and in particular Cadillac cruised through them.

c) In the two games Atlanta had a total of 25 drives, 15 of these ended up with 26 yards or less; 11 ended up with 10 yards or less.

I don't see enough of a trend here to imagine that he all of a sudden starts romping. Especially given that Carolina shut him down in both games. Minnesota, Chicago, NY Jets, Seattle, Philadelphia even New Orleans held him in check.

In the 3 years that he has been healthy and starting, the Falcons running game was in the Top 5 of the NFL [2002, 2004, 2005]; in two of these they led the NFL [2004, 2005] and with averages of nearly 5.0 yards per rush!

In spite of this ability to move the ball on the ground, Michael Vick continues to be among the leagues worst 20% for 3 and outs, converting 3rd downs and sustaining drives. He is a poor decision maker and cannot deliver the ball to the open receiver with consistency and regularity, and IMHO I do not see this changing.

I do not believe Vick will substantially perform above his statistical averages; I would put a ceiling of 20% above it, and I do not see him in the Top 5.

 

[brewer]

When I read -Mike Vick, I Believe This Will Be It- I thought you were going to say he should to switch to WR & Schaub should to take over @ QB.

I was hoping to read the same thing. Although I don't think he would ever agree to play WR, I was thinking this might just be his last chance to be the guy in Atl.

 

[Big Score]

I was thinking this might just be his last chance to be the guy in Atl.

With Vick at QB, the Falcons were within a game of the Superbowl, just two seasons ago. In 2 of the 3 years Vick has been the Falcons QB, they have made the play offs.

The Falcons have never had a losing season when Vick has been the Falcons starting QB.

The Falcons have been the NFL's #1, #1 & #4 ranked rushing team, with Vick as their starting QB.

He is a marketing wet dream for the Falcons.

But yeah, this is his last chance.

 

[Christo]

Talk about a love/hate relationship.

I really hate the fact that I'd love to see an Indianapolis v Atlanta SB this year just so we could move on from two of the worst and most oft repeated discussions on this board.

 

[Kleck]

Hyperbole with this guy is getting way too old. Why do we have to exacerbate and overstate every analysis of Vick?

What do you mean by 'exacerbate'? Just curious, because I'm not sure I see what you're saying.

hyperbole: exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

It's true, he can't hit the Ocean standing 3 feet from it.

exacerbate: make (a problem, bad situation, or negative feeling) worse : the forest fire was exacerbated by the lack of rain.Yeah, I see statements like that as taking a problem (people can't objectively evaluate Vick) and making it worse.

If you thought I was referring to the original poster I understand the confusion. I didn't make that clear.

 

[wannabee]

Hyperbole with this guy is getting way too old. Why do we have to exacerbate and overstate every analysis of Vick?

What do you mean by 'exacerbate'? Just curious, because I'm not sure I see what you're saying.

hyperbole: exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

It's true, he can't hit the Ocean standing 3 feet from it.

exacerbate: make (a problem, bad situation, or negative feeling) worse : the forest fire was exacerbated by the lack of rain.Yeah, I see statements like that as taking a problem (people can't objectively evaluate Vick) and making it worse.

If you thought I was referring to the original poster I understand the confusion. I didn't make that clear.

a Math teacher with an English lesson

 

[pmcdade]

Hyperbole with this guy is getting way too old. Why do we have to exacerbate and overstate every analysis of Vick?

What do you mean by 'exacerbate'? Just curious, because I'm not sure I see what you're saying.

hyperbole: exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

It's true, he can't hit the Ocean standing 3 feet from it.

exacerbate: make (a problem, bad situation, or negative feeling) worse : the forest fire was exacerbated by the lack of rain.Yeah, I see statements like that as taking a problem (people can't objectively evaluate Vick) and making it worse.

If you thought I was referring to the original poster I understand the confusion. I didn't make that clear.

Ah yes. The verb in this sentence "exacerbate" really needed a direct object to refer to in order to clarify what was being exacerbated. This leaves the reader wondering exactly what subject "we" commit the act of "exacerbating" upon? Here, examining the sentence structure the only possible object of the verb would be the "analysis of Vick." However the analysis of Vick isn't what is being exacerbated... it is the hyperbole referred to on the previous sentence that is being exacerbated. So we would need to go outside of the sentence structure of the subject sentence into the previous sentence to find a direct object for the exacerbation.

As that is not the proper structural use of a direct object, this lead to confusion among the readers of this fine forum. This confusion was exacerbated by the fact that the average reader here never cuts the writer any slack and pounces on every malapropism, as if a misstatement by a writer somehow devalued the opinion they are attempting to express.

 

[wannabee]

I try to read Dr. Drinen's blog often. I found this excerpt a good fit for this topic.

Michael Vick



Posted by Doug on Wednesday, May 17, 2006

Back in 2002, I was a serious Vick-backer. I no longer am. But that’s not because I changed my mind. It’s because Vick regressed. At least I think that’s the way it happened.

He is incredibly fun to watch, so that ensures a lot of TV hype. Because of that, there will be haters. Peyton Manning collects haters for the same reason. But Vick generates extra animosity because he doesn’t do things the way quarterbacks are supposed to do things. Johnny Unitas he’s not. But for those that were able to get past that, it was easy to recognize that he was — the occassional really ugly pass aside — a great quarterback in 2002. He was confident, he was decisive, and his scrambling ability made him virtually impossible to defend.

In 2004, he did less but his team was more successful, so it’s hard to complain about that.

Last year, he was not only not a great quarterback. He was a not even a good quarterback. In fact, he wasn’t even fun to watch, and I thought his running ability was noticeably diminished. Here’s what Vick says about it:

My knee was bothering me all year. I never cried about it. I never complained about it. I just tried to do the best I can for the team. Now, I’m 100 percent healthy. I’m where I used to be.

That’s a common refrain in the offseason, so I’m skeptical. But I want to believe him because I sure do enjoy watching him run.

I said earlier that it was easy to recognize that Vick was a great quarterback in 2002 and 2004, and I believe that. In particular, I saw with my own eyes that on every running play the opponent had to keep its outside linebackers and/or ends home — on both sides — for fear of the bootleg. This opened up the middle for Dunn and Duckett to run wild, which led to all the ball-control-and-defense wins that Atlanta racked up during 2004.

Or so it appeared to me.

I went in search of stats to corroborate my impression and came up empty. Here are Dunn and Duckett’s numbers from 2002–2005 with and without Vick in the game.

With Vick

RSH YD Y/R Y/G

============================================

Warrick Dunn 689 3048 4.4 72.6

T.J. Duckett 407 1591 3.9 41.9

Without Vick

RSH YD Y/R Y/G

============================================

Warrick Dunn 211 1073 5.1 67.1

T.J. Duckett 144 584 4.1 38.9

[Fine print: a game was defined to be “with Vick” if Vick attempted 10 or more passes in that game. In other words, I’m not going down to the partial game level. Every game was either a “with Vick” game or a “without Vick” game.]

I’m really not sure what to make of that, except that it wasn’t what I was expecting.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/wordpress/

 

[Dancing Bear]

For me the stats are pretty clear.

a) Without Vick the Falcon Offense relies more on a balanced attack which opened up the running game more for Warrick Dunn. Schaub in particular has shown that he can spread the field nicely when he is in there and the receivers have responded well too!

b) No change for Duckett who is primarily the shortage guy anyway.

 

[Big Score]

Dr. Drinen's blog

Michael Vick



Posted by Doug on Wednesday, May 17, 2006

My knee was bothering me all year. I never cried about it. I never complained about it. I just tried to do the best I can for the team. Now, I’m 100 percent healthy. I’m where I used to be.

That’s a common refrain in the offseason, so I’m skeptical. But I want to believe him because I sure do enjoy watching him run.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/wordpress/

I'm surprised Drinen wrote that.Pretty well documented that Vick's knee was abit of a problem last year. Fisher's sack of Vick in the second game of the season, is when Vick's knee got twisted.

Not sure what he's skeptical about.

 

[Dancing Bear]

I'm not surprised, from a Fantasy perspective he is a risk.

Historically he has a 50% chance of netting you 15 Fantasy points or less and he total Fantasy average is 16.0 ppg.

That is a lot of games with 15 points or less and the rest of his games above 15 points are barely enough to take his average to 16.0 ...

 

[brewer]

I was thinking this might just be his last chance to be the guy in Atl.

With Vick at QB, the Falcons were within a game of the Superbowl, just two seasons ago. In 2 of the 3 years Vick has been the Falcons QB, they have made the play offs.

The Falcons have never had a losing season when Vick has been the Falcons starting QB.

The Falcons have been the NFL's #1, #1 & #4 ranked rushing team, with Vick as their starting QB.

He is a marketing wet dream for the Falcons.

But yeah, this is his last chance.

You like Vick, I get that. But this has hardly been a dominant team with Michael at the helm. Yes, they have had excellent success running the football, but they have been horrid at passing the ball.The 3 years you point out, they were the NFL's #23, #30 and #27 ranked passing team with Vick as their starting QB.

Add his salary considerations into that and I don't believe it is a stretch to think the pressure is on for Vick to both improve in the passing game and for the Falcons to get back to and do well in the playoffs.