Military spending (1 Viewer)

[Sand]

Anytime someone says that we don't have the money to pay for X, this is my argument. We have the money. We just spend it on killing instead of educating.  :X  

Our economic dominance is greatly supported by our military dominance.   

 

[Sand]

Why would they make it look like they are spending less?

Why would they want the world to know what they're spending?  

 

[toshiba]

Why would they want the world to know what they're spending?  

Why do you assume they make it seem lower?

 

[Skoo]

Our economic dominance is greatly supported by our military dominance.   

I'm fine with paying more than everyone else and being the most powerful military on earth.

But there's no reason to be paying MORE THAN THE REST OF THE WORLD COMBINED (minus China).

Especially when you consider that most of the other countries who spend the most on defense are our allies.

It's ridiculous IMO. If you want to overspend like that, you can't also go around claiming we don't have money for other stuff. We have it, it's just being wasted.

 

[Sand]

I'm fine with paying more than everyone else and being the most powerful military on earth.

But there's no reason to be paying MORE THAN THE REST OF THE WORLD COMBINED (minus China).

Especially when you consider that most of the other countries who spend the most on defense are our allies.

It's ridiculous IMO. If you want to overspend like that, you can't also go around claiming we don't have money for other stuff. We have it, it's just being wasted.

I didn't say anything about amounts and what's appropriate.  I just laid on the table something the "let's stop all military spending" folks just don't see.  Or willfully ignore.  

 

[Skoo]

I didn't say anything about amounts and what's appropriate.  I just laid on the table something the "let's stop all military spending" folks just don't see.  Or willfully ignore.  

Ummmm.....I don't think I've ever met someone who wants to stop all military spending.

Neat strawman and all, but let's stick to reality.

 

[widget]

Do you disagree with the figures? 

I would like to read the article.  How about a link other than just CNN.com.  I asked you for it, I am not going to go to a site and dig around, it is your job to prove what you are saying.

 

[toshiba]

I would like to read the article.  How about a link other than just CNN.com.  I asked you for it, I am not going to go to a site and dig around, it is your job to prove what you are saying.

Who's alias are you?

 

[Ilov80s]

Just posted this in another thread and thought it made sense here as well.

As of February, 64% of Americans felt military spending was too low or just right.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/228137/americans-not-convinced-needs-spend-defense.aspx

 

[toshiba]

Just posted this in another thread and thought it made sense here as well.

As of February, 64% of Americans felt military spending was too low or just right.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/228137/americans-not-convinced-needs-spend-defense.aspx

62% said too much or just right.

 

[Ilov80s]

62% said too much or just right.

Correct but I think the general premise here is that we are spending too much and should lower it. 64% don't want it lowered. 

 

[roadkill1292]

Correct but I think the general premise here is that we are spending too much and should lower it. 64% don't want it lowered. 

Yes, some of us may be going against the grain of public opinion. That's hardly a first here. But it's a good discussion strictly on the merits. Discussing things on their merits is how we sometimes change public opinion.

 

[Ilov80s]

Yes, some of us may be going against the grain of public opinion. That's hardly a first here. But it's a good discussion strictly on the merits. Discussing things on their merits is how we sometimes change public opinion.

I am not at all against the discussion. I strongly agree we are spending too much on military. I just thought it was an interesting point for the conversation. Maybe if we can think of why they feel that way, we can understand how to convicne them otherwise.

 

[roadkill1292]

I am not at all against the discussion. I strongly agree we are spending too much on military. I just thought it was an interesting point for the conversation. Maybe if we can think of why they feel that way, we can understand how to convicne them otherwise.

I asked that very question (about increasing it) in the Military Spending thread a few minutes ago. I am very interested in hearing why 30 some percent of us think that we need to increase military spending. I'd like to understand, too.

Whoops, where am I?

 

[KarmaPolice]

I am not at all against the discussion. I strongly agree we are spending too much on military. I just thought it was an interesting point for the conversation. Maybe if we can think of why they feel that way, we can understand how to convicne them otherwise.

I would think it's a combination of things, and at the top would be what Toews was getting at with a couple questions:  since it's such a huge source of income for so many people, what then? We all know somebody who has served or have served ourselves, and it feels gross to say to cut the military.  

 

[DocHolliday]

I would guess that we would still be saving a ton of money if we closed those bases, sent those troops back, but still paid them what they signed up for and kept their benefits.  Over time we would have less need for more recruits and I think that people who are proposing a drastic cut in the military are also hoping that would lead to a better education system and economy here so people would have a different set of skills.   There would be a bigger wave of people than usual if we closed a bunch of bases, but I am guessing this is already a problem as our troops come back if they don't have marketable skills besides soldering.  

I admire our men and women that serve.  They deserve every penny that they make. 

But, we need to wind our military down in size.  Close and decrease the size of bases.  Decrease the size of departments and reduce the number of vehicles.  Eliminate layers of management.  It is crazy to spend this much money on our military when we have much more important needs (such as roads, bridges, water supplies, etc.).  Our country still acts like it is 1940 when the world and war has changed drastically.

 

[urbanhack]

I admire our men and women that serve.  They deserve every penny that they make. 

But, we need to wind our military down in size.  Close and decrease the size of bases.  Decrease the size of departments and reduce the number of vehicles.  Eliminate layers of management.  It is crazy to spend this much money on our military when we have much more important needs (such as roads, bridges, water supplies, etc.).  Our country still acts like it is 1940 when the world and war has changed drastically.

And the message Trump is sending to his base is that we should no longer be the world's police force, we should isolate ourselves more and other countries should be paying their fair share.  This should match up perfectly with reducing the size of our military and the budget.

 

[Ilov80s]

I would think it's a combination of things, and at the top would be what Toews was getting at with a couple questions:  since it's such a huge source of income for so many people, what then? We all know somebody who has served or have served ourselves, and it feels gross to say to cut the military.  

I think the winding down in size of active duty isn't all that difficult.You just recruit less people in and accept less recruits. The bigger issue is what to do with all the industry that is dependant on military contracts. For some States, their dependency on the military makes up to 11% of their GDP. 

 

[Ilov80s]

And the message Trump is sending to his base is that we should no longer be the world's police force, we should isolate ourselves more and other countries should be paying their fair share.  This should match up perfectly with reducing the size of our military and the budget.

Agreed. However, didn't he just increse military spending pretty significantly? Also how much of that shift would he want put towards the border and ICE?

 

[KarmaPolice]

I admire our men and women that serve.  They deserve every penny that they make. 

For sure, and we shouldn't have to say this.  I have never met a person that doesn't feel this way.   

 

[Sand]

Close and decrease the size of bases.  

Which bases do you see as superfluous?

Eliminate layers of management.  

A truism for every part of government, from federal to local.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I think the winding down in size of active duty isn't all that difficult.You just recruit less people in and accept less recruits. The bigger issue is what to do with all the industry that is dependant on military contracts. For some States, their dependency on the military makes up to 11% of their GDP. 

I think the issue is the powerful lobbyists and the people in the government that used to be part of the MIC in some form.  

I am sure we could figure out ways that those states could move their jobs to other sectors.  Renewable energy, construction, infrastructure, made weed legal, whatever - there have to be other ways to make that money and keep people with a good job that doesn't require them to be shot at.   It's that very powerful people make a ####load of money making bullets, missiles, tanks, and planes and their livelihood depends on us being in perpetual war and fear.  

I think the fear of change on the whole has gotten us stuck in a rut b/c you hear it every time it's suggested we cut back on military, get off our dependence on oil, etc.   It's a valid concern, but "what about the jobs" can't fully drive our decision making. 

 

[Ilov80s]

I think the issue is the powerful lobbyists and the people in the government that used to be part of the MIC in some form.  

I am sure we could figure out ways that those states could move their jobs to other sectors.  Renewable energy, construction, infrastructure, made weed legal, whatever - there have to be other ways to make that money and keep people with a good job that doesn't require them to be shot at.   It's that very powerful people make a ####load of money making bullets, missiles, tanks, and planes and their livelihood depends on us being in perpetual war and fear.  

I think the fear of change on the whole has gotten us stuck in a rut b/c you hear it every time it's suggested we cut back on military, get off our dependence on oil, etc.   It's a valid concern, but "what about the jobs" can't fully drive our decision making. 

How much better would our economy be if had spent 7% of our annual budget on clean energy and high speed internet for the country. Pay those soldiers to build the WiFi and set up solar panels, turbines, etc.

 

[DocHolliday]

Which bases do you see as superfluous?

A truism for every part of government, from federal to local.

I have not done a study on US military bases.  But, I believe we have hundreds and I'm confident that some could be closed and others reduced in size with little to no impact on our security.  For example, if we have four bases in a country, why not close one?   Or, if we have two in a small country, why can't one base be reduced by 25%.  Even if the savings seem small during the first phase, it would be a baby step in the right direction and hopefully enable more reductions to occur in the future.   

My wife works for the Feds and the amount of waste that I am aware is crazy.  The budget system creates a lot of the problems.  

 

[Sand]

I have not done a study on US military bases.  But, I believe we have hundreds 

The number is far fewer when we're talking about significant international bases.  The lists that are tossed around include embassies that have soldiers posted to them.     

My wife works for the Feds and the amount of waste that I am aware is crazy.  The budget system creates a lot of the problems.  

I get to deal with government contracting on a continual basis, and, yeah.  

 

[Politician Spock]

Yes.  How many people are employed and are invested in companies that depend on military contracts?

If the government just spent some of that money elsewhere, it would have the same impact to our economy. But if it was spent on schools, we'd be better educated. And if it was spent on healthcare, we'd be healthier. The reason to spend it on military is to make us safer. But really, how much safer are we at $700 billion than we would be at $200 billion?

 

[msommer]

If the government just spent some of that money elsewhere, it would have the same impact to our economy. But if it was spent on schools, we'd be better educated. And if it was spent on healthcare, we'd be healthier. The reason to spend it on military is to make us safer. But really, how much safer are we at $700 billion than we would be at $200 billion?

Three and a half times. HTH

 

 

[whoknew]

I think the winding down in size of active duty isn't all that difficult.You just recruit less people in and accept less recruits. The bigger issue is what to do with all the industry that is dependant on military contracts. For some States, their dependency on the military makes up to 11% of their GDP. 

The reason that conservatives are against government spending is not because they hate poor people or something.* The theory is that the market would utilize the money more efficiently than the government - which is almost always inefficient. So if you want to cut $200bn in gov't spending - theoretically that's $200bn less than you need to take from taxpayers and $200bn more that can be spent by the more efficient market. 

Its weird, then, to see conservatives complaining about losing government jobs with spending cuts. If you cut gov't spending (so goes the theory), you'll increase jobs in the market.

*Obviously this doesn't apply to the current GOP.

 

[Ilov80s]

The reason that conservatives are against government spending is not because they hate poor people or something.* The theory is that the market would utilize the money more efficiently than the government - which is almost always inefficient. So if you want to cut $200bn in gov't spending - theoretically that's $200bn less than you need to take from taxpayers and $200bn more that can be spent by the more efficient market. 

Its weird, then, to see conservatives complaining about losing government jobs with spending cuts. If you cut gov't spending (so goes the theory), you'll increase jobs in the market.

*Obviously this doesn't apply to the current GOP.

Here is your big mistake: you are being rational. 

 

[msommer]

The reason that conservatives are against government spending is not because they hate poor people or something.* The theory is that the market would utilize the money more efficiently than the government - which is almost always inefficient. So if you want to cut $200bn in gov't spending - theoretically that's $200bn less than you need to take from taxpayers and $200bn more that can be spent by the more efficient market. 

Its weird, then, to see conservatives complaining about losing government jobs with spending cuts. If you cut gov't spending (so goes the theory), you'll increase jobs in the market.

*Obviously this doesn't apply to the current GOP.

Here is your big mistake: you are being rational. 

Yup, this argument needs a lot more bold assertions without foundation, a good splotch of emotions and just a thimble or two of faerie dust to accurately depict current GOP thinking

 

[Tom Hagen]

Which bases do you see as superfluous?

We don't know because Congress won't let the DoD do the research. https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/08/close-old-military-bases-follow-pentagon-advice/

 

[Sand]

We don't know because Congress won't let the DoD do the research. https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/08/close-old-military-bases-follow-pentagon-advice/

One thing that's bipartisan - "What's in my district STAYS in my district."

 

[tri-man 47]

7. Are we spending money in defense in the wrong places and not in accordance to the threats we face?

It's hard to know when the accounting is so incredibly  screwed up!

 

[JohnnyU]

Use 22 billion of the military budget to build the wall.

 

[Sand]

Use 22 billion of the military budget to build the wall.

If that was allowed I'd imagine it would already be in progress.

 

[Skoo]

Use 22 billion of the military budget to build the wall.

Does Mexico have that much to spare in their military budget?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

If the government just spent some of that money elsewhere, it would have the same impact to our economy. But if it was spent on schools, we'd be better educated. And if it was spent on healthcare, we'd be healthier. The reason to spend it on military is to make us safer. But really, how much safer are we at $700 billion than we would be at $200 billion?

I'll agree with you by disagreeing with that first sentence.  While multipliers for spending are all over the place depending on other assumptions, there is a pretty good reason why defense spending is almost always used to argue against the stimulus effect of government spending.  Again the numbers are all over the place but I would think (at least in short term economic impacts) that spending on defense is worst for the economy than education which is worst than health care which is slightly worst than infrastructure.  Then add in your secondary considerations...

 

[msommer]

Use 22 billion of the military budget to build the wall.

What on Earth for? There are many more productive uses of that money (possibly including spending it on military stuff)

 

[JohnnyU]

What on Earth for? There are many more productive uses of that money (possibly including spending it on military stuff)

Perhaps help secure our borders?  If they would do that, and go after those who overstay their visa's and penalize companies who hire illegals, that would be a good thing.  Are you for open borders?

 

[urbanhack]

Perhaps help secure our borders?  If they would do that, and go after those who overstay their visa's and penalize companies who hire illegals, 

lol

good one.

Oh...and why hasn't that been done much the last decade?   

 

[JohnnyU]

lol

good one.

Oh...and why hasn't that been done much the last decade?   

greed

 

[msommer]

Perhaps help secure our borders?  If they would do that, and eliminate those who overstay their visa's and penalize companies who hire illegals, that would be a good thing.  Are you for open borders?

Have you heard of tunnels? Ladders?

Are you aware that people who overstay their visas don't actually have to cross the border again by foot in order to over stay their visa?

Does a wall penalize companies that hire illegals?

 

[urbanhack]

greed

special interests, lobbying, corporate corruption, corporate welfare, etc. etc. 

 

[JohnnyU]

Have you heard of tunnels? Ladders?

Are you aware that people who overstay their visas don't actually have to cross the border again by foot in order to over stay their visa?

Does a wall penalize companies that hire illegals?

I thought I was clear in making sure not to insinuate the wall completey cures the immigration problems  but it is a deterrent.   Thus the reason why I mentioned visas and company hiring illegals.   I think drone technology needs to be better utilized on the border.  Also, I would assume everyone understands how people get here per visa.

 

[JohnnyU]

special interests, lobbying, corporate corruption, corporate welfare, etc. etc. 

Especially lobbyist. 

 

[Politician Spock]

I'll agree with you by disagreeing with that first sentence.  While multipliers for spending are all over the place depending on other assumptions, there is a pretty good reason why defense spending is almost always used to argue against the stimulus effect of government spending.  Again the numbers are all over the place but I would think (at least in short term economic impacts) that spending on defense is worst for the economy than education which is worst than health care which is slightly worst than infrastructure.  Then add in your secondary considerations...

I agree with that, but if one can't comprehend not spending it on military, they're not going to see how spending it on education, health care and infrastructure is even better for the economy.

While the benefit of spending it on military is the gain of safety, the economic effects of the cost of safety don't last long. That is to say, a safer person doesn't produce more for the economy. But a better educated person does. So does a healthier person. So does a person who can get from point A to point B faster than he could yesterday. 

 

[msommer]

I thought I was clear in making sure not to insinuate the wall completey cures the immigration problems  but it is a deterrent.   Thus the reason why I mentioned visa's and company hiring illegals.   I think drone technology needs to be better utilized on the border.  Also, I would assume everyone understands how people get here per visa.

I guess that if Trump had said, "Let's secure our borders by spending x billion dollars on a drone surveillance system", I doubt as many would have laughed him in the face. He probably wouldn't have added the bit about Mexico paying for it, though...

He insists on a wall, why? I don't know, except he may be drawn to concrete and the ways to siphon money off that (known in any tinpot dictatorship, as well as real estate development circles)

 

[JohnnyU]

I guess that if Trump had said, "Let's secure our borders by spending x billion dollars on a drone surveillance system", I doubt as many would have laughed him in the face. He probably wouldn't have added the bit about Mexico paying for it, though...

He insists on a wall, why? I don't know, except he may be drawn to concrete and the ways to siphon money off that (known in any tinpot dictatorship, as well as real estate development circles)

I'm starting to believe he will have to divert the money from the military to build the wall because of the left wing push back.  After all, it is why most of his supporters voted for him so he has to deliver one would think. 

 

[timschochet]

I'm starting to believe he will have to divert the money from the military to build the wall because of the left wing push back.  After all, it is why most of his supporters voted for him so he has to deliver one would think. 

Let’s hope he never delivers on this. A wall between the United States and Mexico would be disastrous. 

 

[Dickies]

I'm starting to believe he will have to divert the money from the military to build the wall because of the left wing push back.  After all, it is why most of his supporters voted for him so he has to deliver one would think. 

How about we divert that money for vital social services like education, infrastructure and healthcare right now since it's clearly not money that is critical for a functioning military and we'll just wait for Mexico to pay for the wall (as promised)?