"MISSING INGREDIENT" (1 Viewer)

[kremenull]

There are players throughout the league who are simply frustrating, not only to their respective NFL teams but to fantasy owners as well. I'm talking about the players who simply do not "get it", for one reason or another. Whether it is a lack of dedication/focus, lack of football knowledge/instincts/IQ, immaturity, questionable work ethic, or other reason(s), these players have all the ability to be very good, possibly even great players........yet many simply haven't realized their potential and/or some players (apparently) do not appreciate their blessing to have such an opportunity to be in a professional sports league.

My poster child for this discussion is TE Vernon Davis. Obviously a guy who has a reported very good work ethic and phenomenal physical ability. I just don't believe this kid has developed very well in the mental aspects of the game. Seemingly always in the wrong place on his routes (often drifts right into the coverage instead of settling in the open spaces), Davis truly just doesn't "get it", at least to this point in his career.

The following is a list of a few players who I believe fit into this category, and I'll call upon all the team homers and guys to put forth their opinions on players who also could be mentioned in this discussion. In no particular order, just starting with players on teams in my local area, here we go.

1. TE Vernon Davis - San Francisco 49ers

Blessed with all-world athleticism, one would have had to believe that Davis would have enjoyed at least one or two very prolific seasons in the NFL by now based on his draft status and hype entering the league. Simply has yet to happen and I seriously question if it ever will with this guy.

2. QB JaMarcus Russell - Oakland Raiders

Based on pure throwing ability, JaMarcus is as gifted as anybody as he easily has the strongest arm in all of football. This kid can roll to his right and throw the ball over 65 yds while still on the move (try doing that at home). But due to a perceived questionable work ethic, or just plain laziness, the kid seems a bit uninspired on the field. Recent signs have been encouraging that he may step up his dedication and commitment to become the leader of the team, but I'll reserve judgment until I see it. Given the type of "cheddar" this kid received for being selected #1 overall, he has to realize that there is a huge expectation that comes along with that selection (and contract) - Be the hardest worker on the team and be a leader.

3. WR Brandon Marshall - Denver Broncos

Wonderfully gifted WR, and extremely productive....But you know, with all of his ability I am of the belief that he will eventually (and maybe sooner rather than later) throw it all away with his off-the-field antics. Some guys in life just aren't the "brightest bulbs in the box", if you know what I mean, and Marshall appears to be one of 'em. Hopefully this kid can wise up and avoid the path of self-destruction embarked on by the likes of Mike Vick, Mike Tyson, Maurice Clarett, Pacman Jones, Travis Henry, and others.....Wow, 3 Broncos are mentioned here, no wonder Shanahan was fired.

4. WR Jacoby Jones - Houston Texans

Jones is a guy who flashes on the scene with a few big plays here and there, and I look at some of these plays and just think, WOW! This kid could be a very special player, so I ask, what is going on? I don't have a lot of info on this kid to truly understand the situation there in Houston, but geesh, somebody needs to kick this kid in the rear-end and let him know that he's blowing a golden opportunity. It's almost a crime that a kid this gifted is allowing freakin' Kevin Walter to play ahead of him, and this is no diss to Walter as he has made himself into a player with hard work and dedication, but c'mon, Jones is way more talented than him.

5. RB Willis McGahee - Baltimore Ravens

At "The U", this kid was one of the better players that I had seen come through there in a while.....Even after he hurt his knee in the championship game, I still believed that he would turn into a great NFL RB. With one of the best combinations of size/power/speed that a person could be blessed with, McGahee only needed to continue to work very hard and he was headed for stardom.....well, things haven't quite worked out that way and he is a guy who is running out of time....Some guys, when given a nice "chunk of change" (that's big $$ contract in layman's terms), simply are satisfied and have little desire to improve or strive to be great.......I dunno exactly what it is with this guy, but that's my take on his situation

Just a quick list, but if you have any others who you think fit the bill, please come forth to share your opinions, facts, etc......

 

[kremenull]

Reported June 10

link http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/ic/blo...der/index.shtml

Greg Jennings has been working out in Minneapolis with Jerry Rice, Larry Fitzgerald and others this week.

Jennings just signed a huge contract extension, so it's a good sign he's not taking it easy. Training with Rice and Fitzgerald can't hurt either. Jennings is just a small cut below the top fantasy wideouts.

This is one reason why some people excell while others fall flat....

 

[Man in the yellow hat]

Reported June 10

link http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/ic/blo...der/index.shtml

Greg Jennings has been working out in Minneapolis with Jerry Rice, Larry Fitzgerald and others this week.

Jennings just signed a huge contract extension, so it's a good sign he's not taking it easy. Training with Rice and Fitzgerald can't hurt either. Jennings is just a small cut below the top fantasy wideouts.

This is one reason why some people excell while others fall flat....

Hmm. I just read something that Brandon Marshall was there as well.

 

[gman8343]

Reported June 10

link http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/ic/blo...der/index.shtml

Greg Jennings has been working out in Minneapolis with Jerry Rice, Larry Fitzgerald and others this week.

Jennings just signed a huge contract extension, so it's a good sign he's not taking it easy. Training with Rice and Fitzgerald can't hurt either. Jennings is just a small cut below the top fantasy wideouts.

This is one reason why some people excell while others fall flat....

Hmm. I just read something that Brandon Marshall was there as well.

And Michael Clayton...

 

[Ghost of Bill Walsh]

Maybe Terrell Owens ought to show up and bring his popcorn. Nah, he couldn't get his head through the gate.

 

[CalBear]

1. TE Vernon Davis - San Francisco 49ersBlessed with all-world athleticism, one would have had to believe that Davis would have enjoyed at least one or two very prolific seasons in the NFL by now based on his draft status and hype entering the league. Simply has yet to happen and I seriously question if it ever will with this guy.

Davis' "missing ingredients" are hands and route-running ability. The thing with Davis is that people were evaluating him based on combine numbers, not based on football ability. Similarly with Jeremy Shockey, whose reputation was basically built by running over a backup safety in a pre-season game. Jacoby Jones was a third-round pick from a Division II school going to a team which already had an established #1 WR and no passing game; what would you expect from him?It is certainly the case that people often get excited about the wrong things.

 

[PrimUomo]

There is no such thing as a missing ingredient for an independent variable--it is a combination of the entire heirarchy. From a player point of view all he can do is develop a work ethic. With a good work ethic a player develops an IQ, creates dedication, and allows the player to get the most out of their ability.

The coaching staff is just as important. If a coaching staff lacks continuity, confidence, and a vision that can suceed then the players will not suceed. Positional coaches are just as important as the players work ethic. The fact is that with incompetent coaching, the best of prospects will fail miserably. Playcalling also has very long lasting implications. Vernon Davis is a good example of this. You call him out for lacking in something but that is because you don't appreciate his blocking ability (you can't pass block every down and put up tangible receiving numbers at the same time).

Then you have the front office. Without intelligent roster management, your best players will not shine. This includes finding the best players to fit into what you want to do along with creating a winning environment. Whether it is salary cap management, drafting intelligently, et al.

You can never say that is the fault of a player unless they go far out of their way to fail. I don't agree that Vernon Davis or Jamarcus Russell are missing something, rather their respective organizations are missing something. I don't think it is a coincidence that the teams that win the most have stellar track records on all levels and that the teams without competent coaching staffs or FO's can have the best players in the world and still have no hardware.

 

[kremenull]

There is no such thing as a missing ingredient for an independent variable--it is a combination of the entire heirarchy. From a player point of view all he can do is develop a work ethic. With a good work ethic a player develops an IQ, creates dedication, and allows the player to get the most out of their ability. The coaching staff is just as important. If a coaching staff lacks continuity, confidence, and a vision that can suceed then the players will not suceed. Positional coaches are just as important as the players work ethic. The fact is that with incompetent coaching, the best of prospects will fail miserably. Playcalling also has very long lasting implications. Vernon Davis is a good example of this. You call him out for lacking in something but that is because you don't appreciate his blocking ability (you can't pass block every down and put up tangible receiving numbers at the same time).Then you have the front office. Without intelligent roster management, your best players will not shine. This includes finding the best players to fit into what you want to do along with creating a winning environment. Whether it is salary cap management, drafting intelligently, et al.You can never say that is the fault of a player unless they go far out of their way to fail. I don't agree that Vernon Davis or Jamarcus Russell are missing something, rather their respective organizations are missing something. I don't think it is a coincidence that the teams that win the most have stellar track records on all levels and that the teams without competent coaching staffs or FO's can have the best players in the world and still have no hardware.

So with this logic then I guess you can say that every player in the league who doesn't go to a team, or teams, for which you've blessed as a "great organization", has a built-in excuse for not living up to his potential. Yeah, right.And yes, I do appreciate Vernon's ability to block.....but if I'm an owner/coach/GM of a franchise that selects a skill position player in the Top 10 of any draft, I'm expecting superb production from the perspective of catching the ball or running the ball, not blocking. It's not even a question that Davis has far underperformed.Now to your other misrepresentation of the Raiders and 49ers being bad franchises. Exactly how many Super Bowls have they won combined? You don't even have to answer that. Look, this league is about winning championships, not having 10-6 or 11-5 seasons and exiting in the playoffs. My expectations are never that low. If you believe that the Raiders and 49ers do not know how to develop players and that it is their fault for guys like JaMarcus and Vernon not stepping up, then hey, I can't continue this debate with you as you are going down a road of players not being accountable, and that is my bottom line point in this piece, accountability.I guess guys like Nnamdi Asomugha and Patrick Willis, just to name a couple, must not have gotten your message that they were destined to be underperformers based on their draft day destinations

 

[dotman]

There is no such thing as a missing ingredient for an independent variable--it is a combination of the entire heirarchy. From a player point of view all he can do is develop a work ethic. With a good work ethic a player develops an IQ, creates dedication, and allows the player to get the most out of their ability. The coaching staff is just as important. If a coaching staff lacks continuity, confidence, and a vision that can suceed then the players will not suceed. Positional coaches are just as important as the players work ethic. The fact is that with incompetent coaching, the best of prospects will fail miserably. Playcalling also has very long lasting implications. Vernon Davis is a good example of this. You call him out for lacking in something but that is because you don't appreciate his blocking ability (you can't pass block every down and put up tangible receiving numbers at the same time).Then you have the front office. Without intelligent roster management, your best players will not shine. This includes finding the best players to fit into what you want to do along with creating a winning environment. Whether it is salary cap management, drafting intelligently, et al.You can never say that is the fault of a player unless they go far out of their way to fail. I don't agree that Vernon Davis or Jamarcus Russell are missing something, rather their respective organizations are missing something. I don't think it is a coincidence that the teams that win the most have stellar track records on all levels and that the teams without competent coaching staffs or FO's can have the best players in the world and still have no hardware.

And yes, I do appreciate Vernon's ability to block.....but if I'm an owner/coach/GM of a franchise that selects a skill position player in the Top 10 of any draft, I'm expecting superb production from the perspective of catching the ball or running the ball, not blocking. It's not even a question that Davis has far underperformed.

I suppose his missing ingredient is just receiving talent. It's not his fault the 49ers took him too early. Being a freakish athlete helps, but you need talent too. Chris Henry (TEN) was drafted in the 2nd round after a great combine, and I'm sure the Titans expected a lot more from him. Too bad he isn't talented enough to play well in the NFL...and it was a dumb pick based only on athleticism.Vernon cannot be your poster child for this, since in my opinion, he doesn't have the ability to be a great player. He has the ability to be a great blocker (potential he has reached) but the ability to only be a mediocre receiver. Perhaps he will work hard to overcome some of his deficiencies, but to say he hasn't reached his potential because he doesn't appreciate his blessings is wrong. You can tell he works damn hard in the weight room and at blocking, why would you assume he isn't working hard on all facets of the game?

 

[kremenull]

Vernon cannot be your poster child for this, since in my opinion, he doesn't have the ability to be a great player. He has the ability to be a great blocker (potential he has reached) but the ability to only be a mediocre receiver. Perhaps he will work hard to overcome some of his deficiencies, but to say he hasn't reached his potential because he doesn't appreciate his blessings is wrong. You can tell he works damn hard in the weight room and at blocking, why would you assume he isn't working hard on all facets of the game?

Sure he can be and is no doubt my poster boy for a classic underachiever. Whether it was a bad pick or not, the expectation for big things was, and still is, definitely there. That (bolded) statement certainly applies to some players, but I never was attributing it to Vernon, so let's get a clearer understanding of what was being stated here before you try to dismiss my opinion, which you nor anyone else could ever do because it is simply that, an opinion. I've edited the first paragraph of the post to try to clarify the point.

Disagree if you want, but from what I see and believe of these players' physical abilities, they all have some internal issues to work through to either fulfill their vast potential or maintain it in Marshall's case, and my take on Vernon is his issue is primarily mental (i.e., focus/concentration, understanding of the game of football, however you want to phrase it).

 

[PrimUomo]

lol it sounds like you are just angry because your FF projections were too high. If you are depending on Davis, Russell and Jacoby Jones to carry your team you need to draft better. In any case, you can't simply hold a single player accountable for an entire teams failure. The only player you listed whose regime has even gone to the playoffs is McGahee and his missing ingredient is what we call "bad knees." The fact that McGahee even made a professional career for himself after getting his leg pretty much ripped off means I really can't expect the guy to last that long.

In terms of Vernon Davis, how can you say that because he was used for his pass blocking that he has a fundamental problem? How many winning seasons has his professional team had? I'm guessing that Davis is the reason Mike Nolan was fired because a player has to be accountable for his entire teams failure correct?

In terms of Russell, it is Russell's fault that he has no WRs and that his FO is clueless? Please. He makes a lot of mistakes, but you can't expect the guy to do everything. Give him the same system for a few years and he will make progress or fail out of the league.

Would Brandon Marshall be beating women up on the Patriots? I think not--the guy would either get his act together or be riding the bench. A team that doesn't take disipline seriously will have problem players.

Jacoby Jones is missing a quarterback. Schaub gets injured too much meaning Jones is stuck more often than not with a second rate offense. But of course, he must be accountable. Why aren't you playing QB Jacoby? You gotta man up eventually and take accountability for actions you have no control over.

A team that loses, loses together. If a player makes bad decisions, it is the players fault for making the decision, the coaches fault for not training his players properly and the FO's fault for hiring an incompetent coach. In 9 out of 10 bad decisions, blame is equal. Only in extraordinary situations should the blame be placed solely on the player.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

On the defensive side of the ball, I would say DeAngelo Hall.

This is a guy who has all the talent in the world - from a physical ability standpoint, he's IMO one of the top CB's in the league. He's got speed, playmaking ability, change of direction skills and good size.

But he's simply so concerned with personal glory that it absolutely clouds his entire game. His idol is Deion Sanders (you'll see him celebrate like Deion after INT's) and as such, I believe one of his concerns is to try and make it 'look easy'. As such, WR's have learned that you can simply run 10-12 up and in patterns all day because Hall is giving such a big cushion in order to protect himself from being beaten deep. At the end of a half against the Saints when Mora was coach, Brees lofted a Hail Mary at the end of a half. Instead of going up high to knock it down, he tried to simply cradle it for a stat padding INT. Devery Henderson swooped in right in front of him and cleanly caught the pass for a spirit crushing end of half TD. His 'feud' with Steve Smith was tiresome and whenever he did get beat deep, 10 times out of 10, he'd ##### to the ref about something. One season after he made the Pro Bowl, he came into training camp with a renewed focus on winning the SuperBowl, because he was satisfied now because he had reached the Pro Bowl. His constant politiking for a ProBowl invite even became a source of aggravation for his team.

When he left the Falcons, he complained that they weren't playing enough man. So he was happy to be going to the Raiders. When he left the Raiders, he said their man schemes weren't a good fit.

This may sound like sour grapes coming from a Falcon fan, but I was elated when Dimitroff traded Hall. Certainly some of the impetus was contract related, but I can't help but think that this was a kid who simply didn't grasp the concept of team.

 

[fatness]

On the defensive side of the ball, I would say DeAngelo Hall.This is a guy who has all the talent in the world - from a physical ability standpoint, he's IMO one of the top CB's in the league. He's got speed, playmaking ability, change of direction skills and good size.But he's simply so concerned with personal glory that it absolutely clouds his entire game.

Update: By all accounts (coaches, players, and reporters) Hall has been a very good team player since joining the Redskins, and is described by some as showing leadership skills. He didn't get the big contract from the Redskins based only on talent.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

On the defensive side of the ball, I would say DeAngelo Hall.This is a guy who has all the talent in the world - from a physical ability standpoint, he's IMO one of the top CB's in the league. He's got speed, playmaking ability, change of direction skills and good size.But he's simply so concerned with personal glory that it absolutely clouds his entire game.

Update: By all accounts (coaches, players, and reporters) Hall has been a very good team player since joining the Redskins, and is described by some as showing leadership skills. He didn't get the big contract from the Redskins based only on talent.

I stand by my assertion. He was showing those things this time last year with the Raiders. We'll see how reacts once the games begin.Perhaps getting released by the Raiders woke him up, but you know what they say about leopards and spots.

 

[fatness]

I stand by my assertion. He was showing those things this time last year with the Raiders. We'll see how reacts once the games begin.Perhaps getting released by the Raiders woke him up, but you know what they say about leopards and spots.

You can take whatever position you like. I'm just offering newer information about a player than what you posted, for people to evaluate as they see fit.I will say the idea that, once a player doesn't "get it", he will never "get it", is often wrong. Plenty of these guys improve over the years, but some people just stand by the initial impression of that player and reject evidence to the contrary. I don't think you're doing that, you're in "will see" mode about Hall like I am. What I've seen from Hall in half a season and a whole offseason with the Redskins has been good.

 

[fatness]

There are players throughout the league who are simply frustrating, not only to their respective NFL teams but to fantasy owners as well. [snip]3. WR Brandon Marshall - Denver Broncos

When did he disappoint fantasy owners? WR#5 in my ppr leagues last year.

 

[kremenull]

There are players throughout the league who are simply frustrating, not only to their respective NFL teams but to fantasy owners as well. [snip]3. WR Brandon Marshall - Denver Broncos

When did he disappoint fantasy owners? WR#5 in my ppr leagues last year.

Did I say disappoint? Or frustrate? Two different things. If I was a Marshall owner, I'd be at least a bit concerned about his penchant for unruly behavior off the field. If Marshall owners want to put their head in the sand and simply ride the wave of his on-field success to-date, then go ahead and be an ostrich. This kid is one foul-up from losing games, again. And this time, it may be more than just a couple. Man, some of you guys need to get a grip and just take the post for what it is. Instead of spending too much of your efforts trying to critique every little thing stated and trying to dismiss a person's opinion, you'd be better served by either putting forth your own input on some players with regards to the topic or step on and move to another thread.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

I stand by my assertion. He was showing those things this time last year with the Raiders. We'll see how reacts once the games begin.

Perhaps getting released by the Raiders woke him up, but you know what they say about leopards and spots.

You can take whatever position you like. I'm just offering newer information about a player than what you posted, for people to evaluate as they see fit.I will say the idea that, once a player doesn't "get it", he will never "get it", is often wrong. Plenty of these guys improve over the years, but some people just stand by the initial impression of that player and reject evidence to the contrary. I don't think you're doing that, you're in "will see" mode about Hall like I am. What I've seen from Hall in half a season and a whole offseason with the Redskins has been good.

How about this new information...DeAngelo Hall's reaction to 2009 Madden rating

“Ah, I’m feelin’ good, man. We just keep trying to get better, but, yeah, I’m trying to blow off some steam with my Madden rating.”

“I’m thinking about trying to get my name and likeness pulled off the game entirely. ‘Cause this is bull.”

Not a big fan of the AJC, but I think this statement (#6) encapsulates Hall's persona to a tee. I would say the information may be new in the place he's in now, but not new to where he's been before. He behaved in his half season with the Redskins because he needed to in order to get paid.

DeAngelo Hall snippet

...and who can forget this doozy

But as Hall left the field before a Carolina fourth down, his trash-talking with Panthers receiver Steve Smith got so out of control that Hall was flagged for taunting — his third penalty, for a tally of 67 yards lost in 82 seconds.

What was Hall saying to Smith?

"I’ve been in as many Pro Bowls as you; I make more money than you," Smith said. "Just real immature stuff."

The Panthers — thanks to the fresh set of downs — scored a touchdown two plays later, then another before the quarter was over, eventually winning 27-20.

 

[identikit]

On the defensive side of the ball, I would say DeAngelo Hall.

This is a guy who has all the talent in the world - from a physical ability standpoint, he's IMO one of the top CB's in the league. He's got speed, playmaking ability, change of direction skills and good size.

But he's simply so concerned with personal glory that it absolutely clouds his entire game.

Update: By all accounts (coaches, players, and reporters) Hall has been a very good team player since joining the Redskins, and is described by some as showing leadership skills. He didn't get the big contract from the Redskins based only on talent.

It'd be a very good thing if Deangelo got himself straightened out.But let's be real here, the current Redskins owner gives out big contracts for a lot less than talent. All the time.

 

[dotman]

Vernon cannot be your poster child for this, since in my opinion, he doesn't have the ability to be a great player. He has the ability to be a great blocker (potential he has reached) but the ability to only be a mediocre receiver. Perhaps he will work hard to overcome some of his deficiencies, but to say he hasn't reached his potential because he doesn't appreciate his blessings is wrong. You can tell he works damn hard in the weight room and at blocking, why would you assume he isn't working hard on all facets of the game?

Sure he can be and is no doubt my poster boy for a classic underachiever. Whether it was a bad pick or not, the expectation for big things was, and still is, definitely there. That (bolded) statement certainly applies to some players, but I never was attributing it to Vernon, so let's get a clearer understanding of what was being stated here before you try to dismiss my opinion, which you nor anyone else could ever do because it is simply that, an opinion. I've edited the first paragraph of the post to try to clarify the point.

Disagree if you want, but from what I see and believe of these players' physical abilities, they all have some internal issues to work through to either fulfill their vast potential or maintain it in Marshall's case, and my take on Vernon is his issue is primarily mental (i.e., focus/concentration, understanding of the game of football, however you want to phrase it).

Sorry I assumed the bolded statement applied to him since he was your poster boy (usually the poster boy for something will have most of the attributes of whatever he is the poster boy for). So I guess my assumption was wrong.If you want to rate player's potential solely on draft status and hype, then yes Davis is an underacheiver. I think there is a lot more to look at when trying to figure out a player's potential, which is how I came to the conclusion that Davis potential is not as high as you think and he shouldn't have been a top 10 pick. I wasn't trying to dismiss your opinion, I was saying that I disagree with the premise you based your opinion on.

When I watch Vernon play, I don't see a player with the natural receiving talent it would take to be a stud. I did not get to see him play in college where he was a succesful receiver, I am assuming that his incredible athleticism allowed him to overcome the lack of natural talent. I could be wrong about that but that is my assumption. But now at the NFL level his athleticism isn't enough to overcome his other defeciencies. There is more to being succesful than athleticism and focus, think of players who aren't the best athletes but are still great players. First guy that comes to mind to me is Wesley Walls, he was a good athlete but not great, but the guy was great at catching the ball, he looked like an overgrown receiver, his game was just very polished.

So you see, I am basing my opinion on Davis potential on what I have seen of his game. I think he can get better but I don't really see him as an under acheiver, rather just as a player who's expectations were too high. But yes, if you rate his potential only on draft status and hype, then he is an under acheiver. I just think there is more to look at than that.

 

[fatness]

How about this new information...

DeAngelo Hall's reaction to 2009 Madden rating

“Ah, I’m feelin’ good, man. We just keep trying to get better, but, yeah, I’m trying to blow off some steam with my Madden rating.”

“I’m thinking about trying to get my name and likeness pulled off the game entirely. ‘Cause this is bull.”

Not a big fan of the AJC, but I think this statement (#6) encapsulates Hall's persona to a tee. I would say the information may be new in the place he's in now, but not new to where he's been before. He behaved in his half season with the Redskins because he needed to in order to get paid.

LOL, talking about Madden indicates a player has a problem?You left out this part of the article by the way, which is pretty indicative of how Hall's worked in the offseason.

As I mentioned earlier, cornerback DeAngelo Hall was practicing like a man possessed today.

 

[fatness]

But let's be real here, the current Redskins owner gives out big contracts for a lot less than talent. All the time.

For free agents, yes. For a player who played for them last year it's a bit different, more of a confidence thing than throwing money in the dark.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

How about this new information...

DeAngelo Hall's reaction to 2009 Madden rating

“Ah, I’m feelin’ good, man. We just keep trying to get better, but, yeah, I’m trying to blow off some steam with my Madden rating.”

“I’m thinking about trying to get my name and likeness pulled off the game entirely. ‘Cause this is bull.”

Not a big fan of the AJC, but I think this statement (#6) encapsulates Hall's persona to a tee. I would say the information may be new in the place he's in now, but not new to where he's been before. He behaved in his half season with the Redskins because he needed to in order to get paid.

LOL, talking about Madden indicates a player has a problem?You left out this part of the article by the way, which is pretty indicative of how Hall's worked in the offseason.

As I mentioned earlier, cornerback DeAngelo Hall was practicing like a man possessed today.

Being upset about your Madden rating...? Doesn't indicate some level of immaturity? From a guy whose shown spades of it during his career? Can you picture Troy Polamalu being upset about this? Peyton Manning?It's simply part of a pattern he's demonstrated throughout his career. I take it your a Skins fan, so here's hoping I'm wrong. I'm just glad he's not our problem anymore.

 

[CalBear]

When I watch Vernon play, I don't see a player with the natural receiving talent it would take to be a stud. I did not get to see him play in college where he was a succesful receiver, I am assuming that his incredible athleticism allowed him to overcome the lack of natural talent. I could be wrong about that but that is my assumption. But now at the NFL level his athleticism isn't enough to overcome his other defeciencies.

Really, he wasn't particularly successful in college, either; he had one decent season (51/871/6). His second-best season he only had 27 catches and 3 TDs.

 

[fatness]

It's simply part of a pattern he's demonstrated throughout his career. I take it your a Skins fan, so here's hoping I'm wrong. I'm just glad he's not our problem anymore.

I'm a Skins fan, and I'm harder on them than most people here. Check each year's offseason thread for the Redskins to see. I'm glad they dumped Jason Taylor, they never should have signed him. I"m glad they dumped Jansen since I've been saying they should do it for well over a year. I also think Chad Rinehart's a bust. And frankly I'm glad they cut Springs, who was their most talented CB but who was hurt for at least half the plays every season. Sometimes he sat out, sometimes he played hurt, but he wasn't reliable. From what I saw of Hall last year, and more importantly from what the coaching staff and players say, Hall's both talented and reliable enough to replace Springs. I didn't watch Hall with the Falcons or Raiders; only since he became a Redskin. That's why the reports of his attitude and on-field problems seem a bit foreign to me --- I just haven't seen that since he's been in Washington. He's respected in the locker room, by players and coaches, and last year he was their best CB after they unexpectedly got a chance to gamble and sign him for the remainder of the year, for cheap money. He does charity work, he does interviews, he's got a contract requiring him to participate in a certain % of OTA's (as do Haynesworth and Dockery), he practices and plays well. Based on your account and the accounts of others as to how he was in Atlanta and Oakland, he seems at this point like a guy who has turned it around, or who has found the "missing ingredient".

Washington Times

His brief Washington Redskins experience - including a six-year, $55 million contract - has been the opposite because of how seamless teammates and coaches made his transition.

"From the first day I walked into the room, it was crazy," Hall said. "I had played against some of the guys in college and came into the draft with some of them. I felt like I was embraced from the moment they considered bringing me in."

Hall returned the favor with strong play. He became a starter four weeks after signing and posted totals of 25 tackles, two interceptions and eight pass breakups - a performance that convinced the Redskins to release oft-injured veteran Shawn Springs and go with Hall and Carlos Rogers as the starting cornerbacks.

Hall's seven-week orientation to the Redskins last year is paying a dividend this year. Instead of having to grasp a new system, Hall is learning what the other defensive backs do on each snap and getting time covering the slot receiver, a role Springs held.

"He's learning new positions, and we're doing a lot of stuff to give him chances to be around the ball," secondary coach Jerry Gray said. "Right now, he doesn't have to think he's going through the crash course he did last year when it was all catch-up and reaction. I know who he is and what he can do."

"Just in these past OTAs, I've seen him get his hands on the ball, and those weren't easy interceptions," defensive tackle Anthony Montgomery said. "He's definitely going to help us out."

Working Hall in the slot on passing downs in particular could help the Redskins out. Springs excelled in playing a variety of styles to limit routes down the middle of the field. Hall has never covered the slot position.

"The type of person he is, he's always up for the challenge," Gray said. "He wants to see if he can do those types of things."

Said Hall: "On third down, everybody knows the ball goes inside. That's why Wes Welker finished with 100 catches. The slot receivers are getting the ball, and some teams put their best receivers in the slot, and as a defense we have to put their best guys inside. It's my first time jumping inside, but I love the chance to get the ball."

 

[PrimUomo]

Man, some of you guys need to get a grip and just take the post for what it is. Instead of spending too much of your efforts trying to critique every little thing stated and trying to dismiss a person's opinion, you'd be better served by either putting forth your own input on some players with regards to the topic or step on and move to another thread.

Isn't explaining a difference of opinion "putting forth your own input?" My posts=my input. The fact is that if you want fantasy studs, you need organizational studs. You can gamble on bad organizations or succeed with good organizations. These so called "critiques" are explanations as to this so called "missing ingredient." If you want the missing ingredient look no further than coaching and the front office. I also don't see any use for Jacoby Jones on the list of "missing ingredients." Any player with speed will run past somebody eventually. When the guy shows legitimate, consistent starter ability and then some falloff then you can say there is something that has been lost.In terms of Deangelo Hall, going to the raiders was the worst thing he could have done. If one simply looks at who he was paired with you will understand. Asomugha is the best corner in the league. Hall pretty much became the focal point of any teams passing offense. The contract he got would put any man into a stupor. These two factors together=Hall's 2008 season. If the Redskins are going to have the passing defense needed to win the NFC East, Hall will be the guy to lead them there.

 

[coolnerd]

Jacoby Jones is missing a quarterback. Schaub gets injured too much meaning Jones is stuck more often than not with a second rate offense. But of course, he must be accountable. Why aren't you playing QB Jacoby? You gotta man up eventually and take accountability for actions you have no control over.A team that loses, loses together. If a player makes bad decisions, it is the players fault for making the decision, the coaches fault for not training his players properly and the FO's fault for hiring an incompetent coach. In 9 out of 10 bad decisions, blame is equal. Only in extraordinary situations should the blame be placed solely on the player.

At the end of pre-season of his rookie year Jacoby Jones was WR 2B if not 2A with Kevin Walter across from Andre Johnson. Jones is now been passed by Walter, Andre Davis (journeyman) and David anderson (7th round pick) and is the 5th Wr on an offense that has compiled enough yards to be top 5 in the NFL (yards). the Texans QB situation has not been a negative to Andre Johnosn (Top 3 FF WR), Kevin Walter (top 30 FF WR), Owen daniels (Top 10 FF TE) and Steve Slaton (top 12 FF RB). In short, 2008 Houston offense was full quality FF players, despite Schuab's injuries and Rosenfel's turnovers. Jones had the opportunity to be the clear number 2 all but handed him, and has did nothing but regress on the field and party too much (rumored) off the field. He could not been in a better situation to be fantasy and NFL relevant and is now just a really fast guy who has a handful of nice punt returns each year.

 

[kremenull]

Vernon cannot be your poster child for this, since in my opinion, he doesn't have the ability to be a great player. He has the ability to be a great blocker (potential he has reached) but the ability to only be a mediocre receiver. Perhaps he will work hard to overcome some of his deficiencies, but to say he hasn't reached his potential because he doesn't appreciate his blessings is wrong. You can tell he works damn hard in the weight room and at blocking, why would you assume he isn't working hard on all facets of the game?

Sure he can be and is no doubt my poster boy for a classic underachiever. Whether it was a bad pick or not, the expectation for big things was, and still is, definitely there. That (bolded) statement certainly applies to some players, but I never was attributing it to Vernon, so let's get a clearer understanding of what was being stated here before you try to dismiss my opinion, which you nor anyone else could ever do because it is simply that, an opinion. I've edited the first paragraph of the post to try to clarify the point.

Disagree if you want, but from what I see and believe of these players' physical abilities, they all have some internal issues to work through to either fulfill their vast potential or maintain it in Marshall's case, and my take on Vernon is his issue is primarily mental (i.e., focus/concentration, understanding of the game of football, however you want to phrase it).

Sorry I assumed the bolded statement applied to him since he was your poster boy (usually the poster boy for something will have most of the attributes of whatever he is the poster boy for). So I guess my assumption was wrong.If you want to rate player's potential solely on draft status and hype, then yes Davis is an underacheiver. I think there is a lot more to look at when trying to figure out a player's potential, which is how I came to the conclusion that Davis potential is not as high as you think and he shouldn't have been a top 10 pick. I wasn't trying to dismiss your opinion, I was saying that I disagree with the premise you based your opinion on.

When I watch Vernon play, I don't see a player with the natural receiving talent it would take to be a stud. I did not get to see him play in college where he was a succesful receiver, I am assuming that his incredible athleticism allowed him to overcome the lack of natural talent. I could be wrong about that but that is my assumption. But now at the NFL level his athleticism isn't enough to overcome his other defeciencies. There is more to being succesful than athleticism and focus, think of players who aren't the best athletes but are still great players. First guy that comes to mind to me is Wesley Walls, he was a good athlete but not great, but the guy was great at catching the ball, he looked like an overgrown receiver, his game was just very polished.

So you see, I am basing my opinion on Davis potential on what I have seen of his game. I think he can get better but I don't really see him as an under acheiver, rather just as a player who's expectations were too high. But yes, if you rate his potential only on draft status and hype, then he is an under acheiver. I just think there is more to look at than that.

OK! I disagree, but fair enough.....Guys who are blessed with great athleticism have a leg up on mediocre athletes, IMO. In other words, they possess "half the puzzle", so to speak. Much of professional sports, especially basketball and football, are geared towards "explosiveness". The further players move up the ladder of competition, i.e., from high school to college to professional, this becomes more of a factor. You don't have to agree, but it simply is FACT.

This is why a Vernon Davis will get selected at #6 overall, and like it or not, the high expectations follow. I'm talking strictly from a football perspective, fantasy aside. So in my eyes, yes, he should be on a fast track to making at least a significant impact in the league as a receiving threat, but it simply hasn't happened. Is it as easy to say that it is all his fault? Of course not. But from some of what I have observed, and I've seen more than quite a few of the 49ers games since I am in their TV market, I've noticed frequently that this guy just doesn't seem to be in the right spot on his routes, which is a huge factor to lack of success and/or consistency......and this is a mental error, not a physical one. Trent Dilfer (former 49er QB) has publicly criticized Davis as not gaining the trust of the QBs there due to his mental lapses, not the drops (physical errors). And I've heard this from other sources as well, local beat writers, media outlets, etc. And that only confirms what I see with my own eyes, which I'll ultimately trust the most before I even comment on almost any topic in here, especially my own topic.

So where I'm coming from, if I believe that some guys possess "half the puzzle" towards being a pretty good to great player, then yes I do believe that they are missing something that hasn't allowed them to get there....at least not yet, as some still have time. Others get there, so they obviously possess some ingredient(s) that did allow them to get there.....I think it's pretty simple, at least that's how I tried to keep it, some players either have what it takes to attain or keep success, or they don't.....I'm just trying to start a debate as to why that is for some players, and from the players I've outlined the things mentioned in my original post are what I've picked up on.

 

[kremenull]

Man, some of you guys need to get a grip and just take the post for what it is. Instead of spending too much of your efforts trying to critique every little thing stated and trying to dismiss a person's opinion, you'd be better served by either putting forth your own input on some players with regards to the topic or step on and move to another thread.

Isn't explaining a difference of opinion "putting forth your own input?" My posts=my input. The fact is that if you want fantasy studs, you need organizational studs. You can gamble on bad organizations or succeed with good organizations. These so called "critiques" are explanations as to this so called "missing ingredient." If you want the missing ingredient look no further than coaching and the front office. I also don't see any use for Jacoby Jones on the list of "missing ingredients." Any player with speed will run past somebody eventually. When the guy shows legitimate, consistent starter ability and then some falloff then you can say there is something that has been lost.

In terms of Deangelo Hall, going to the raiders was the worst thing he could have done. If one simply looks at who he was paired with you will understand. Asomugha is the best corner in the league. Hall pretty much became the focal point of any teams passing offense. The contract he got would put any man into a stupor. These two factors together=Hall's 2008 season. If the Redskins are going to have the passing defense needed to win the NFC East, Hall will be the guy to lead them there.

Or from the other side of the coin, when a guy flashes big-time ability (super RAC and open-field playmaking, great leaping ability on high tosses in the corner and/or back of the end zone), then just maybe he has significant potential in some people's eyes. Who says that something has to be lost? Maybe there is something to be gained if they did indeed have that something else that they are missing. Again, you don't have to agree, but it is why I put him in there. Several guys of his similar ilk, whether it be draft position and/or size/speed/RAC combination have gone on to become pretty significant players or at least have significant impact seasons (guys like T.O., Steve Smith, Jake Reed, Marcus Robinson, Rod Smith, John Taylor, need I add more?), so to me they obviously possessed something that this guy doesn't, or at least has yet to display. Thus "MISSING INGREDIENT" applies to him from my perspective.

 

[massraider]

There are players throughout the league who are simply frustrating, not only to their respective NFL teams but to fantasy owners as well.

[snip]

3. WR Brandon Marshall - Denver Broncos

When did he disappoint fantasy owners? WR#5 in my ppr leagues last year.

Did I say disappoint? Or frustrate? Two different things. If I was a Marshall owner, I'd be at least a bit concerned about his penchant for unruly behavior off the field. If Marshall owners want to put their head in the sand and simply ride the wave of his on-field success to-date, then go ahead and be an ostrich. This kid is one foul-up from losing games, again. And this time, it may be more than just a couple. Man, some of you guys need to get a grip and just take the post for what it is. Instead of spending too much of your efforts trying to critique every little thing stated and trying to dismiss a person's opinion, you'd be better served by either putting forth your own input on some players with regards to the topic or step on and move to another thread.

I agree, and while I may not agree with everything, it's nice for people to put out their opinions. I'll add mine on Marshall and Russell.

I am a Marshall owner in an auction league, and I paid a premium price for him. Color me worried. I think he's an exceptional talent, he strikes me as unstoppable when he wants to be, along the lines of a Moss or Andre Johnson. Just a handful for CBs. But the off-field stuff, the changes in offenses, the attitude, I just think it doesn't bode well. And we have seen this with so many WRs before, to ignore the warning signs is foolish. Talent isn't enough, you need a guy to be dedicated, or you can wind up with Ocho Cinco, or Moss in his Oakland days. With Denver's defense, they aren't looking to put the ball in the hands of Orton, they are looking to run the ball, and shorten the game. Add in the subtraction of Shanahan (an offensive master), and the addition of Orton, I think his numbers have to go down.

I think Russell is a victim of being on the Raiders. There's good news and bad news in Oakland, but the bad news is easier to sell. Russell has been active at the Oakland headquarters all off season, and improved pretty dramatically in his first year as a starter, but you don't hear it. Cable mentioned he had to improve, then said he was doing everything Cable wanted. Which comment got more press? He had a new coach midway through the season, and WRs that couldn't get open, and dropped balls when they did. Plus a LT that couldn't block anyone. Once they went to the youngsters (Shilens and Higgins), and replaced Kwame Harris, Russell's numbers improved. And even when he was bad, he avoided INTs. He did fumble a bit, but pocket awareness improves. It is kind of bewildering to me that a guy that young, after one season as a starter, is being written off so soon. The biggest concern to me isn't Russell, it's the Raiders ability to give him some continuity. He needs, like all QBs, the same offense, the same coaches, let him get comfortable. Let's face it, the situation in Oakland hasn't been the best for a developing QB.