Mitch calls bill to allow easier voting "Power Grab" (1 Viewer)

[IvanKaramazov]

Those don't really screen based on competence though. They screen based on motivation. As we saw in 2016 there are plenty of motivated incompetents.

If there were a more direct way to screen based on political knowledge, I'd be happy to go that route.  I don't think the government can be trusted to construct a test that doesn't put a thumb on the scales though.  

 

[Murph]

If there were a more direct way to screen based on political knowledge, I'd be happy to go that route.  I don't think the government can be trusted to construct a test that doesn't put a thumb on the scales though.  

Do you think the methods you favor put a thumb on a scales? Intentionally or not.

 

[dgreen]

voting is a choice - I don't think we should force people to vote

Voting is a right.

Not sure what your point is. What does it being a right have to do with it being a choice?

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

Mitch's take on Federal employees:

“Their bill would make Election Day a new paid holiday for government workers, and create an additional brand new paid leave benefit for up to six days for any federal bureaucrats who decides they’d like to hang out at the polls during an election,” McConnell added on Wednesday.

 

[Amused to Death]

Not sure what your point is. What does it being a right have to do with it being a choice?

Calling it a "choice" seems to minimize the importance. My point is in making it easier to exercise our right to vote instead of putting up barriers. You're correct in that voting is not compulsory, but it would be great if everyone had easy access to that right. You see these incidents of moving polling places to inconvenient locations, having limited number of machines available, long lines that take hours to wait through.  Not everyone has hours or an entire day to dedicate to a right that should only take minutes to exercise.

 

[AAABatteries]

I don't.  Most voters are incompetent, and I think some measures that gently screen them out are good overall.  I'm thinking in particular of things like registration requirements, ID requirements, elections on weekdays, etc.  All of those at least require some measure of forethought and intentionality before somebody shows up to vote.   

Yeah - I think what we need is a qualifier - We want everyone to educate themselves on issues and then vote.  That I would agree with.  Uneducated voters* is partly to blame for Trump - "hey, I've heard of that guy - MAGA!"

*Uneducated on the people running and issues - not uneducated using the conventional meaning of the term

 

[dgreen]

Calling it a "choice" seems to minimize the importance. My point is in making it easier to exercise our right to vote instead of putting up barriers. You're correct in that voting is not compulsory, but it would be great if everyone had easy access to that right. You see these incidents of moving polling places to inconvenient locations, having limited number of machines available, long lines that take hours to wait through.  Not everyone has hours or an entire day to dedicate to a right that should only take minutes to exercise.

Got it.

From a government/policy/democracy standpoint, I think it makes sense to make voting easy. However, I share Ivan's opinion that, in reality, I don't really want everyone voting. The people who vote now don't really know what they're voting for. Then again, I'm not sure if adding more uninformed voters really changes the outcomes, so maybe it doesn't matter. Ideally, I think it would be great if there was a way to allow those who know their stuff to vote, but I'm not aware of a good way to do that so I'm fine with having what we have now with easier access.

 

[AAABatteries]

That bill has 571 pages based on your link.

We need to fire back up the discussion around why this is such a terrible idea.  One basic reason is that it can lead to misleading conclusions. 

This bill limits the rights of rapists and molesters and this guys didn't sign it!    In the small print it also had 100 horrible other things in it that combined were worse.

 

[dgreen]

*Uneducated on the people running and issues - not uneducated using the conventional meaning of the term

Right. They're not stupid, but they also aren't trained climate scientists, labor economists, or tax lawyers. Yet many voters tend to disagree with consensus expert opinion. Why? Because they read an article or had an uncle who made a pretty convincing argument at Thanksgiving last year?

 

[Da Guru]

I don't.  Most voters are incompetent, and I think some measures that gently screen them out are good overall.  I'm thinking in particular of things like registration requirements, ID requirements, elections on weekdays, etc.  All of those at least require some measure of forethought and intentionality before somebody shows up to vote.   

Yeah - I think what we need is a qualifier - We want everyone to educate themselves on issues and then vote.  That I would agree with.  Uneducated voters* is partly to blame for Trump - "hey, I've heard of that guy - MAGA!"

*Uneducated on the people running and issues - not uneducated using the conventional meaning of the term

The problem is that the dems always had a lock on the uneducated vote before Trump got them to switch. They don`t need more voters they just need to swing  the uneducated vote back their side again.

 

[The Commish]

So.....no good reason not to have a national holiday for this?  Take away President's Day or Columbus Day or something to get over the "too many days" facade.  But let's be honest, it's a completely laughable argument.  If you go to that as your argument, perhaps you should pause and consider your position in the first place.

 

[AAABatteries]

The problem is that the dems always had a lock on the uneducated vote before Trump got them to switch. They don`t need more voters they just need to swing  the uneducated vote back their side again.

My point is I don’t want any uneducated voters - I think the premise being that if they educate themselves that more of the policies coming from the left are correct*

*when I’m talking about correct I’m referring to non-social issues.  

Climate is an obvious one.

 

[parasaurolophus]

This is good, thank you. I assume the Dems would pass everything in this as it's written.

What are some of the things in it that would be considered power grabs that would only benefit Democrats?

I think taking something away from the states could be seen as a power grab. Forcing states to create agencies is definitely borderline. I think imposing something new on the supreme court could be viewed as such (although I actually support this part of it). I think the necessary recusal part of this could be viewed that way also. 

Unless I am reading this wrong, i think the bill would restore voting rights to felons that are even still on probation. That seems like it would heavily favor democrats. 

Then there are the comments specific to Mitch. I think it is fairly well accepted that federal employees lean democrat. They certainly do if we look at contributions and they do if we look at polling. So giving them a national holiday would definitely seem to at least be a decision that isn't really about voting fairness and just a way to get some extra votes. 

Again, I am only basing this off of your linked articles and the text of the bill itself, I haven't read any other articles. 

And to be clear I agree with much of this bill, I just can see there are plenty of what I would consider non starters for the GOP thrown in there that it was well known that this wasn't going anywhere. I actually think democrats don't even want plenty of things in there and just put it in since they know darn well the GOP wont accept the other things.  

 

[Jackstraw]

I don't like it, State or Federal level. Sorry, I don't

this is true - and the people in places that have more difficulty finding voting places needs to do something about it. However, with extended early voting in most states, what's the real excuses behind "not having enough time to vote" ?

I mean we make time for facebook, Dr Phil, Family Feud, Survivor, Saturday football and Sunday NFL but don't have "time" to vote right ?

I'd consider "urban" areas where voting lines can be 3-4 hours plus long. Things that go easy for middle class people many times can be exceedingly difficult to others. And MOST people will still do those things but in razor thin elections little impediments can make a percentage or two difference. And I think that's why you have many of the difficulities in place in the first place.  

 

[The General]

I think taking something away from the states could be seen as a power grab. Forcing states to create agencies is definitely borderline. I think imposing something new on the supreme court could be viewed as such (although I actually support this part of it). I think the necessary recusal part of this could be viewed that way also. 

Unless I am reading this wrong, i think the bill would restore voting rights to felons that are even still on probation. That seems like it would heavily favor democrats. 

Then there are the comments specific to Mitch. I think it is fairly well accepted that federal employees lean democrat. They certainly do if we look at contributions and they do if we look at polling. So giving them a national holiday would definitely seem to at least be a decision that isn't really about voting fairness and just a way to get some extra votes. 

Again, I am only basing this off of your linked articles and the text of the bill itself, I haven't read any other articles. 

And to be clear I agree with much of this bill, I just can see there are plenty of what I would consider non starters for the GOP thrown in there that it was well known that this wasn't going anywhere. I actually think democrats don't even want plenty of things in there and just put it in since they know darn well the GOP wont accept the other things. 

That Federal Employees may or may not lean towards Democrats shouldn't really matter.

I do agree with many things you said however. Your last point especially - that there is some gamesmanship being done here.

 

[roadkill1292]

Sounds like we're past due for an FBG Constitutional Convention where we can argue for 10 pages over just who and how many of our fellow citizens we really really need to disenfranchise.

Sortition now.

 

[The Commish]

I don't like it, State or Federal level. Sorry, I don't

I might regret asking this, but why not?  Say voting day is Nov 4.  What's the huge difference between registering say a month, week, day earlier and on the 4th?  What events do you think happen behind the scenes that need time between registration and the act of voting?

 

[Sheriff Bart]

Back in my day we had a little saying... 

Spoiler

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!

 

[honky kong]

So.....no good reason not to have a national holiday for this?  Take away President's Day or Columbus Day or something to get over the "too many days" facade.  But let's be honest, it's a completely laughable argument.  If you go to that as your argument, perhaps you should pause and consider your position in the first place.

As someone else pointed out a simple counter is to propose to move it to Saturday. No national holiday needed. He'd still oppose it and his reasoning would be even more transparent. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

As someone else pointed out a simple counter is to propose to move it to Saturday. No national holiday needed. He'd still oppose it and his reasoning would be even more transparent. 

How could reasoning ever be transparent in a 571 page bill? 

 

[[scooter]]

The problem is that the dems always had a lock on the uneducated vote before Trump got them to switch.

This is false. Less educated voters preferred Republicans in 2000, 2004, and 2008.

 

[Apple Jack]

An election weekend makes more sense, although Columbus Day still should be dropped in favor of something or someone more worthy of honoring.

 

[urbanhack]

The problem is that the dems always had a lock on the uneducated vote before Trump got them to switch. They don`t need more voters they just need to swing  the uneducated vote back their side again.

So ridiculous 

 

[Ruffrodys05]

So ridiculous 

I like to think I'm in the know, right, correct, pretty much most of the time. I'm usually pretty stubborn about it too. But, when presented with differing facts I will attempt to verify them and am willing to open my eyes to the fact that I may not be in the know, may be wrong, may be incorrect. My opinion can be changed. It's happened before and likely to happen again. 

I find it a shame that many folks refuse to do this. 

 

[[scooter]]

So ridiculous 

I like to think I'm in the know, right, correct, pretty much most of the time. I'm usually pretty stubborn about it too. But, when presented with differing facts I will attempt to verify them and am willing to open my eyes to the fact that I may not be in the know, may be wrong, may be incorrect. My opinion can be changed. It's happened before and likely to happen again. 

I find it a shame that many folks refuse to do this. 

I'll give DaGuru a little bit of credit in the sense that the educational divide was much greater for Trump than for any recent president. And he probably has a valid point that the Democrats need to win back some of those voters if they are to win in 2020.

But the blanket generalization that these voters have "always" voted Democrat is a level of denial and ignorance that cannot be explained by a simple lack of knowledge.

 

[Dickies]

I don't.  Most voters are incompetent, and I think some measures that gently screen them out are good overall.  I'm thinking in particular of things like registration requirements, ID requirements, elections on weekdays, etc.  All of those at least require some measure of forethought and intentionality before somebody shows up to vote.   

I almost 100% disagree with this statement.  We should have registration requirements, but I don't see why we need to make it any more difficult than that.

 

[The Commish]

How could reasoning ever be transparent in a 571 page bill? 

He can't take back the words "power grab".  They're out there as part of the context moving forward.  You don't have to read the bill to figure it out  

 

[The Commish]

I don't like it, State or Federal level. Sorry, I don't

I might regret asking this, but why not?  Say voting day is Nov 4.  What's the huge difference between registering say a month, week, day earlier and on the 4th?  What events do you think happen behind the scenes that need time between registration and the act of voting?

Shocked....SHOCKED that it's :crickets: on this  

 

[The Commish]

The problem is that the dems always had a lock on the uneducated vote before Trump got them to switch. They don`t need more voters they just need to swing  the uneducated vote back their side again.

Curious how you explain all the analysis and data saying the opposite.

 

[Dedfin]

Curious how you explain all the analysis and data saying the opposite.

Most of his political philosophy is "who knows" then just says stuff. Why? Because who knows?

 

[parasaurolophus]

Can we make vaccinating your kids somehow a requirement for voting? 

 

[Stealthycat]

Shocked....SHOCKED that it's :crickets: on this  

sorry I missed this - giggle like a school girl if you'd like but I try hard to respond to all questions and you know that

I might regret asking this, but why not?  Say voting day is Nov 4.  What's the huge difference between registering say a month, week, day earlier and on the 4th?  What events do you think happen behind the scenes that need time between registration and the act of voting?

a decent view don't you think ?

https://www.capenews.net/sandwich/opinion/same-day-voter-registration-is-bad-public-policy/article_0c936227-e9df-5655-98e2-67e6938d8d24.html

 

[Sheriff Bart]

Can we make vaccinating your kids somehow a requirement for voting? 

I would be for this.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

sorry I missed this - giggle like a school girl if you'd like but I try hard to respond to all questions and you know that

a decent view don't you think ?

https://www.capenews.net/sandwich/opinion/same-day-voter-registration-is-bad-public-policy/article_0c936227-e9df-5655-98e2-67e6938d8d24.html

Not all that persuasive to me.  He speaks vaguely of "administrative chaos" and "unnecessary confusion and inaccuracies" but these problems don't seem prevalent in places where same-day registration already exists.  To me he comes across as a guy who has been doing his job a certain way for many years and doesn't want to change to something that might have some associated challenges.

 

[Dedfin]

How about a math test? I'm all for these types of filters.

 

[Dedfin]

oh boy, capenews.net looks like something that would give my antivirus an aneurysm. Not touching that.

 

[roadkill1292]

If only we were as concerned at the way huge donations influence elections and policy the way we are about the guy in the next neighborhood understanding enough about the constitution.

 

[ericttspikes]

An election weekend makes more sense, although Columbus Day still should be dropped in favor of something or someone more worthy of honoring.

Yup. A federal holiday for voting is more American than taking a day off celebrating some the dude who found a country that already had people living in it.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Yup. A federal holiday for voting is more American than taking a day off celebrating some the dude who found a country that already had people living in it.

I wonder if swapping columbus day with national voting day would even get dem support. I cant see it getting the support of federal workers or their unions. 

 

[ericttspikes]

I wonder if swapping columbus day with national voting day would even get dem support. I cant see it getting the support of federal workers or their unions. 

No idea, but Columbus day is dumb IMO.

 

[huthut]

How about a math test? I'm all for these types of filters.

Any type of test will never work because the scale can be tilted heavily to pass or fail someone based on how much you want them to vote. Ex.:

https://allthatsinteresting.com/voting-literacy-test

Why does voting even need to be one day? You can have a voting week or weekend or something, and just stop by and vote when it is most convenient. You might have to pay more for poll workers or whatever, but it would be an insignificant amount of money. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

No idea, but Columbus day is dumb IMO.

No argument here. 

 

[Jackstraw]

How about a math test? I'm all for these types of filters.

Yep. Just a little light Jim Crow.

I'm honestly shocked at  the level of arrogance and basic ignorance of history I'm seeing here. 

 

[roadkill1292]

Yep. Just a little light Jim Crow.

I'm honestly shocked at  the level of arrogance and basic ignorance of history I'm seeing here. 

Were you around for the FFA Constitutional Convention a few years back? Man, guys in here wanted the entire electorate to consist of about a thousand voters.

Sortition now.

 

[Jackstraw]

Were you around for the FFA Constitutional Convention a few years back? Man, guys in here wanted the entire electorate to consist of about a thousand voters.

Sortition now.

Didn't follow it too much. Back to white male land owners days.    

 

[Dedfin]

Yep. Just a little light Jim Crow.

I'm honestly shocked at  the level of arrogance and basic ignorance of history I'm seeing here. 

Forgive me, of course I don't think we should keep people from voting. It's a crazy idea, so I went along with being crazy.

 

[The Commish]

Shocked....SHOCKED that it's :crickets: on this  

sorry I missed this - giggle like a school girl if you'd like but I try hard to respond to all questions and you know that

I might regret asking this, but why not?  Say voting day is Nov 4.  What's the huge difference between registering say a month, week, day earlier and on the 4th?  What events do you think happen behind the scenes that need time between registration and the act of voting?

a decent view don't you think ?

https://www.capenews.net/sandwich/opinion/same-day-voter-registration-is-bad-public-policy/article_0c936227-e9df-5655-98e2-67e6938d8d24.html

There isn't a concrete idea in there, so no....not a decent view.  It's all vague and just seems like change he doesn't want to deal with....not persuasive at all.  However, I am not really interested in what anyone else says on this.  I asked YOU specifically what YOU thought and why YOU thought it.  This link doesn't tell me that either  

 

[Jackstraw]

Forgive me, of course I don't think we should keep people from voting. It's a crazy idea, so I went along with being crazy.

Yeah I saw what you did there. We are in violent agreement.  

 

[Stealthycat]

I asked YOU specifically what YOU thought and why YOU thought it.

easier for fraud I'd think .... and we have to preserve the integrity of our voting system right ?

 

[timschochet]

Ivan is correct that we would all be better off if less people vote. The way to achieve that, however, is not through restrictive laws, but through a free society and a strong economy. Most people don’t care about politics unless they have to.