MSU in the Crosshairs - Lawsuit Alleges MSU Encouraged Woman not to Report Rape by Basketball Players; Ohio State University Doctor Abused 177 Athlete (1 Viewer)

[Brunell4MVP]

I've never understood sentencing someone to life.  Or essentially life in this case.  Might as well give them the death penalty (rather than just saying it like the judge does) and save society the burden of dealing with their incarceration, motions, and endless parole requests.

Come to think of it, if I was sentenced to life with no chance for parole I'd probably request the death penalty if I had to serve that life sentence in a hard core prison.

 

[Hawkeye21]

I’m still flabbergasted that people don’t realize that the problem is primarily that people don’t believe women who report being raped, harassed, or molested.

That’s it.  It’s pretty much just pure sexist drivel.  You want to know why Nassar wrote that his accusers just wanted money and attention to the judge?  Because that’s probably how he’s gotten out of these accusations for decades.  Men in this country don’t believe that women get harassed, groped, molested, and raped at anywhere near the level they actually are in this country.  They just don’t believe women.  They think women are making it up.  That’s what MSU decided here.  

I completely agree but one of the huge problems causing that is the fact there are women who do lie and file false reports.  I'm not sure what the legal consequences are for those who get caught lying but they should be huge.  Not only are they ruining the life of the innocent person they are accusing they are also making it harder for the real victims.  So many ####ty people in the world.

 

[Hawkeye21]

I've never understood sentencing someone to life.  Or essentially life in this case.  Might as well give them the death penalty (rather than just saying it like the judge does) and save society the burden of dealing with their incarceration, motions, and endless parole requests.

Come to think of it, if I was sentenced to life with no chance for parole I'd probably request the death penalty if I had to serve that life sentence in a hard core prison.

If you wanted the death penalty then it's all the more reason to make you rot in jail.  It's a punishment.  It's suppose to be harsh.  It's not suppose to be easy and it's not suppose to just end right away.  You have to live with what you did for a very long time.  It's all part of the punishment.

I hope the man loses his mind thinking about all the terrible crap he did.  I'd rather see him sit in a hole his entire sentence.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Or when she said it was an “honor” and a “privilege” to sentence Nassar.

I disagree with the fame point of view as well. Did you guys watch the video of her reading the sentence? She wasn't flaunting it. IMO, she sounded upset, disturbed, and even a little pissed off, by having to deal with such a colossal piece of garbage. 

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Was driving my daughter to her winter workouts with her team.  They are all 12 turning 13 this year.

As we are driving I ask her if she knows what it means if someone touches her inappropriately or molests her.

She says yes very quietly, I tell her you tell me or mommy or someone  you trust if someone does something to you that makes you feel uncomfortable or wrong.

That is not your fault.

I can tell she is uncomfortable and she quietly just says - I don't want to get older and have to deal with this.  

I said ME EITHER!!! But for some people it doesn't matter how old you are.

She nodded and said ok. 

If anything good has come from this it has made me want to talk and "comfort" my daughter about this topic.   I'd probably would never have even thought about discussing this before to be honest.   As someone who coaches these female athletes it disgusts me how something like this could happen.  And the extra sad thing is I've known most of these girls for years and little things in the past (like a kid giving a hug goodbye, or sitting next to me on the bench closely etc) has me concerned of the perception of what it means.  :(

I think there's plenty of good silver linings coming from all this for girls, and am happy for my 6 year old daughter with the direction we are going as a society.  At this point, I'm more concerned for my 13 year old son, who is entering the years of confusion, pressure, angst as it relates to girls, friends, responsibility, maturity, etc.  It was confusing enough for me back in the 80's, with all the conflicting messages, expectations and pressures. I don't want him to grow up being ashamed of his gender and afraid to express himself to girls and pursue relationships.  Like we were, he is constantly bombarded with conflicting messages in music, television, advertising and from his peers. I fear my ability to prepare him for this part of his life is completely inadequate.

 

[Henry Ford]

Or when she said it was an “honor” and a “privilege” to sentence Nassar.

It probably was.  It should be.  Judges do things they don't want to do all the time.  They make decisions and change people's lives in terrible ways - sometimes good people.  This wasn't that.

Whatever the thing is that most of us do at our jobs that does the most good for the world, that judge did more good in that moment than most people do in a year.

It would be an honor and a privilege to send someone who's molested over 150 little girls to prison.  Just like it would be an honor and a privilege to be the officer who arrested him, booked him, and slammed the jail cell shut on him the first day he was picked up.

 

[Henry Ford]

I completely agree but one of the huge problems causing that is the fact there are women who do lie and file false reports.  I'm not sure what the legal consequences are for those who get caught lying but they should be huge.  Not only are they ruining the life of the innocent person they are accusing they are also making it harder for the real victims.  So many ####ty people in the world.

This is not as common as you seem to think it is.

 

[Hawkeye21]

This is not as common as you seem to think it is.

I don't think I mentioned how common it was.  The fact is that it happens and that's enough for people to question claims.  The Duke lacrosse team accusation certainly didn't help.

Just look at the comments people make when a woman makes a claim against a celebrity.  She gets called a liar and someone just trying to get paid off.

 

[Henry Ford]

I don't think I mentioned how common it was.  The fact is that it happens and that's enough for people to question claims.  The Duke lacrosse team accusation certainly didn't help.

Just look at the comments people make when a woman makes a claim against a celebrity.  She gets called a liar and someone just trying to get paid off.

People file false reports about battery, theft, arson, and all kinds of things.  But we don't put people who report those crimes through the same ringer we do women reporting sexual assault.

 

[Hawkeye21]

People file false reports about battery, theft, arson, and all kinds of things.  But we don't put people who report those crimes through the same ringer we do women reporting sexual assault.

What point are you trying to make here?

 

[Henry Ford]

What point are you trying to make here?

That it isn't the existence of some indeterminate number of "false reports" that cause people to discount women's reports of being raped, molested, or harassed.  

 

[Hawkeye21]

That it isn't the existence of some indeterminate number of "false reports" that cause people to discount women's reports of being raped, molested, or harassed.  

The fact that they happen does not help though.  Would you agree with that?  It's like the boy who cried wolf story.

 

[otb_lifer]

chilling to think that had Nasser rather  been accused of "hate speech", or lobbing a racial slur, he would've been terminated/tarred and feathered/banished to Bogeyland - with deafening haste.

but 25+ yrs of serial sexual misconduct? "well, we don't have enough to go on just yet - all hearsay at this point - the proper people were made aware" 

 

[CletiusMaximus]

It probably was.  It should be.  Judges do things they don't want to do all the time.  They make decisions and change people's lives in terrible ways - sometimes good people.  This wasn't that.

Whatever the thing is that most of us do at our jobs that does the most good for the world, that judge did more good in that moment than most people do in a year.

It would be an honor and a privilege to send someone who's molested over 150 little girls to prison.  Just like it would be an honor and a privilege to be the officer who arrested him, booked him, and slammed the jail cell shut on him the first day he was picked up.

I agree with her sentence but the grandstanding puts me off. The short video I saw was similar - overly dramatic, unnecessary and it cheapens the process in my view. Its not about the judge and she should not be showboating, despite that frequently being the case in criminal court, particularly when the media is involved. I'll acknowledge I only saw a very small portion of the process, and my view is very limited. For me, what I saw from this judge was too staged, too scripted, and not respectful of the chair she sits in.

 

[Henry Ford]

The fact that they happen does not help though.  Would you agree with that?  It's like the boy who cried wolf story.

Again, it happens in all types of crimes.  It's virtually irrelevant in those other crimes when they're reported.

If you have two stories next to each other in the newspaper, and one reads

"Man Claims He Saw His Neighbor Burn Down His House"

and the other reads

"Woman Says She Was Raped By Her Neighbor"

People are significantly more likely to believe the man who says his neighbor burned down his house.  Despite the fact that arson is one of the most fraudulently reported alleged crimes in the country.

 

[Henry Ford]

I agree with her sentence but the grandstanding puts me off. The short video I saw was similar - overly dramatic, unnecessary and it cheapens the process in my view. Its not about the judge and she should not be showboating, despite that frequently being the case in criminal court, particularly when the media is involved. I'll acknowledge I only saw a very small portion of the process, and my view is very limited. For me, what I saw from this judge was too staged, too scripted, and not respectful of the chair she sits in.

Okay.  

 

[Galileo]

There's a really good This American Life about this where a reporter in Australia (weird - This Australian Life, I guess) goes around confronting guys who catcall women. And she finds one guy willing to talk and he catcalls and smacks women on the ### all the time. And he explains that he believes they love it and are flattered by it. And she tells the guy how horrible it is when a guy does that. And he is stunned. It never even occurred to him that what he was doing was horrible for women.

Exactly.  To take it a step further, if roles were reversed and that guy were to walk through a room full of women who hooted and hollered at him and patted his ###, he would probably feel good about himself and brag about it to his buddies.  

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Haven't followed this case...Have his children come forward yet?...If not I wonder how long it will be...They should probably put a rope in his cell, most humane thing they could provide.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

It would be difficult to be the judge sentencing Larry Nassar.  One would be tempted, almost inexorably driven, to express society's outrage and consternation for his systematic abuse of innocence and trust.   The words one would be likely to choose in so doing would tend toward metaphor, simile,  and allegory to capture the disgust and condemnation one wished to convey.  In so doing one might make comparisons suggesting he is less than human, since, you know, he is, at least by my definitions.  Yet if one did make such a suggestion, that he is less than human and so undeserving of his full panoply of human right protections, one would create appellate opportunities so that this Defendant  could keep himself in the public conscience, could keep some hold or connection to his victims through that process.

It would be a challenge to convey to him all that should be conveyed, and yet to protect the victims.  They may not understand or appreciate that your rhetoric was not strong, soaring and sweeping in your condemnation, not getting that measured words were measured for a reason.

I think the judge did pretty well, all things considered.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

My attempt at sentencing would have been:

The defendant will stand (not please stand)

There will be no editorial comments from the bench.  You are hereby sentenced to the maximum allowed by the law. Bailiff, remove this prisoner from the presence of the Court and these fine people.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

I agree with her sentence but the grandstanding puts me off. The short video I saw was similar - overly dramatic, unnecessary and it cheapens the process in my view. Its not about the judge and she should not be showboating, despite that frequently being the case in criminal court, particularly when the media is involved. I'll acknowledge I only saw a very small portion of the process, and my view is very limited. For me, what I saw from this judge was too staged, too scripted, and not respectful of the chair she sits in.

Was it not this video? (the first one that plays on that page...death warrant comment at 1:35). Doesn't seem overly dramatic or showboaty to me. Or are you just saying her using those words at all?  

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

This Defendant makes me want vengeance.  He invites me to allow passion to rule over reason.  Is there anything more human? 

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Was it not this video? (the first one that plays on that page...death warrant comment at 1:35). Doesn't seem overly dramatic or showboaty to me. Or are you just saying her using those words at all?  

I saw the clip where she dismissively tossed his letter aside in dramatic fashion. It struck me as something one would see on a courtroom reality tv show. It is unnecessary and distasteful. I'm old fashioned. I want an impartial arbiter of justice. I would prefer she announce the sentence, bring the gavel down and close the proceedings.

 

[Henry Ford]

My attempt at sentencing would have been:

The defendant will stand (not please stand)

There will be no editorial comments from the bench.  You are hereby sentenced to the maximum allowed by the law. Bailiff, r4emove this prisoner from the presence of the Court and these fine people.

I think I would have been less brief.  I think the victims deserve it, but that's just my personal taste.  I would imagine I would have said something like:

Counselors, please stand up your client for sentencing.

Larry Nassar has pleaded guilty to seven counts of first-degree criminal sexual misconduct.  As part of his sentencing, both he and his litany of victims have been allowed to make statements to the Court.  

In the victims' statements, they recounted years - in some cases over a decade - of criminal abuse, where Larry Nassar preyed upon the brightest stars of the sports world, abusing his authority, his former license as a physician, and the trust of parents, educators, and hundreds of children.  They stated that he had used their abilities and vulnerabilities - including actual physical injuries he was supposed to treat - as a lever and a fulcrum to pry from them their innocence; their trust in themselves, their world, and the institutions of education and international competition they had dedicated their lives to; and in some cases, pried from them their own families with pathological precision.  This Court believes these victims, hears their pain and sorrow, and will use sentencing, in part, as an expression of the State of Michigan's resolve that it will not only support victims, but it will affirmatively take up the cause of its citizens when they bring a complaint to the police and secure a conviction and carry that cause as far as the law and justice will allow in order to protect them and future victims from these types of horrible crimes.

Larry Nassar's statement expressed that these victims are attempting to gain something from this trial other than justice.  That these victims are only speaking out to get fame and money from his guilty plea.  The Court does not agree with Larry Nassar, finds his statements to be self-serving, improper, and a complete failure to show remorse or to take responsibility for his crimes and believes these statements should carry no weight in determining his sentence.

Based on the foregoing, the sentencing guidelines handed down by the legislature, and the applicable law and arguments, this Court is only empowered by law to sentence Larry Nassar to one hundred seventy five years in prison, or twenty-one hundred months. It does so by this order.

 

[Da Guru]

Both my daughters played college volleyball so I have been involved with high level club volleyball teams since they were in 8th grade.  When my oldest was in 7th grade and just starting out she played in a Catholic League tourney.   Later that night I get a call from what sounded like an old man saying "I watched your daughter play today and she has the potential to be a high level volleyball player. I would like her to try out this summer for our #1 club travel team"

So I take her to the tryouts that next summer and she makes the team with girls from all over the Metro-Detroit area.   The next year now I have 3 clubs calling and wanting her to play for them and I see how all these parents are kissing butt to the club coaches and club directors and the power these coaches had over the players. Because colleges recruit volleyball players only through these clubs.  They go to events where every major club in the country will be there.  They don`t go to high school games like basketball and football coaches do.   So you can imagine if a club has contacts with all the Big Ten, MAC, and countless other small schools how the parents overlook some things.

What really troubled me yesterday and when Nasser said (And I think he is deranged) "All of these women who are accusing me now came back to me again, and again for the same treatment. I thought to myself..why?   The why is because Nasser and MSU were a pipeline to their Olympic dreams. That sick bastord knew the power and control he had not only over the kids but the parents as well.    I know because I have seen so many volleyball parents the exact same way.

So I am trying to figure this part out.    I know for a fact and we had discussed this with our girls when they were young about appropriate and inappropriate touching by adults in power.  My wife works for the State of Michigan education dept and deals with this stuff all the time.   Did the girls not tell their parents what was happening during "treatment" or did they tell the parents and the parents did nothing about it at the time in fear of losing that pipeline spot?  This is where much of that emotional turmoil from some parents is coming from.  I do think some parents had to know and did nothing at the time and are living with some tremendous guilt for not doing anything or not believing what their daughters told them.   

With close to 300 female athletes involved and former Olympic Gold Medalists how did this take 14 years to boil over?

 

[Galileo]

I saw the clip where she dismissively tossed his letter aside in dramatic fashion. It struck me as something one would see on a courtroom reality tv show. It is unnecessary and distasteful. I'm old fashioned. I want an impartial arbiter of justice. I would prefer she announce the sentence, bring the gavel down and close the proceedings.

That was not part of the sentencing

 

[Henry Ford]

I saw the clip where she dismissively tossed his letter aside in dramatic fashion. It struck me as something one would see on a courtroom reality tv show. It is unnecessary and distasteful. I'm old fashioned. I want an impartial arbiter of justice. I would prefer she announce the sentence, bring the gavel down and close the proceedings.

Imagine you'd just heard 150 young women talk about how this man molested and abused them for years at a time over a period of several days.  And then you got a letter from him telling you they were just trying to get fame and money right before you sentence him.  

 

[Henry Ford]

Both my daughters played college volleyball so I have been involved with high level club volleyball teams since they were in 8th grade.  When my oldest was in 7th grade and just starting out she played in a Catholic League tourney.   Later that night I get a call from what sounded like an old man saying "I watched your daughter play today and she has the potential to be a high level volleyball player. I would like her to try out this summer for our #1 club travel team"

So I take her to the tryouts that next summer and she makes the team with girls from all over the Metro-Detroit area.   The next year now I have 3 clubs calling and wanting her to play for them and I see how all these parents are kissing butt the coaches and club directors and the power these coaches had over the players. Because colleges recruit volleyball players only through these clubs.  They go to events where every major club in the country will be there.  They don`t go to high school games like basketball and football coaches do.   So you can imagine if a club has contacts with all the Big Ten, MAC, and countless other small schools how the parents overlook some things.

What really troubled me yesterday and when Nasser said (And I think he is deranged) "All of these women who are accusing me now came back to me again, and again for the same treatment. I thought to myself..why?   The why is because Nasser and MSU were a pipeline to their Olympic dreams. That sick bastord knew the power and control he had not only over the kids but the parents as well.    I know because I have seen so many volleyball parents the exact same way.

So I am trying to figure this part out.    I know for a fact and we had discussed this with our girls when they were young about appropriate and inappropriate touching by adults in power.  My wife works for the State of Michigan education dept and deals with this stuff all the time.   Did the girls not tell their parents what was happening during "treatment" or did they tell the parents and the parents did nothing about it at the time in fear of losing that pipeline spot?  This is where much of that emotional turmoil from some parents is coming from.  I do think some parents had to know and did nothing at the time and are living with some tremendous guilt for not doing anything or not believing what their daughters told them.   

With close to 300 female athletes involved and former Olympic Gold Medalists how did this take 14 years to boil over?

I know some of the women told their parents.  One when she was very young, and the parents confronted him and he convinced them she made it up and she was a liar.

That young woman's father later committed suicide.

 

[Tom Servo]

Both my daughters played college volleyball so I have been involved with high level club volleyball teams since they were in 8th grade.  When my oldest was in 7th grade and just starting out she played in a Catholic League tourney.   Later that night I get a call from what sounded like an old man saying "I watched your daughter play today and she has the potential to be a high level volleyball player. I would like her to try out this summer for our #1 club travel team"

So I take her to the tryouts that next summer and she makes the team with girls from all over the Metro-Detroit area.   The next year now I have 3 clubs calling and wanting her to play for them and I see how all these parents are kissing butt to the club coaches and club directors and the power these coaches had over the players. Because colleges recruit volleyball players only through these clubs.  They go to events where every major club in the country will be there.  They don`t go to high school games like basketball and football coaches do.   So you can imagine if a club has contacts with all the Big Ten, MAC, and countless other small schools how the parents overlook some things.

What really troubled me yesterday and when Nasser said (And I think he is deranged) "All of these women who are accusing me now came back to me again, and again for the same treatment. I thought to myself..why?   The why is because Nasser and MSU were a pipeline to their Olympic dreams. That sick bastord knew the power and control he had not only over the kids but the parents as well.    I know because I have seen so many volleyball parents the exact same way.

Apropos of nothing, my brother made the Little League all-star team his last year. During one practice, he struck out. The coach tells him to run a lap. My brother tells the coach to pound sand, picks up his stuff and goes home.

Point is, any kind of athletic fame, however small, is an intoxicating drug. I can't imagine anyone other than my then 12-year old brother tossing away something like an all star team spot. 99% of kids (and adults) would be all in for situations like this.

 

[McGarnicle]

Again, it happens in all types of crimes.  It's virtually irrelevant in those other crimes when they're reported.

If you have two stories next to each other in the newspaper, and one reads

"Man Claims He Saw His Neighbor Burn Down His House"

and the other reads

"Woman Says She Was Raped By Her Neighbor"

People are significantly more likely to believe the man who says his neighbor burned down his house.  Despite the fact that arson is one of the most fraudulently reported alleged crimes in the country.

What I can't get past is even the one girl's parents not believing her. 

 

[Henry Ford]

What I can't get past is even the one girl's parents not believing her. 

Which should shine the brightest possible light on how we treat these victims in this country.  But it doesn't.  Instead, we're here talking about how women bring this on themselves because some false reports exist.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I think I would have been less brief.  I think the victims deserve it, but that's just my personal taste.  I would imagine I would have said something like:

Counselors, please stand up your client for sentencing.

Larry Nassar has pleaded guilty to seven counts of first-degree criminal sexual misconduct.  As part of his sentencing, both he and his litany of victims have been allowed to make statements to the Court.  

In the victims' statements, they recounted years - in some cases over a decade - of criminal abuse, where Larry Nassar preyed upon the brightest stars of the sports world, abusing his authority, his former license as a physician, and the trust of parents, educators, and hundreds of children.  They stated that he had used their abilities and vulnerabilities - including actual physical injuries he was supposed to treat - as a lever and a fulcrum to pry from them their innocence; their trust in themselves, their world, and the institutions of education and international competition they had dedicated their lives to; and in some cases, pried from them their own families with pathological precision.  This Court believes these victims, hears their pain and sorrow, and will use sentencing, in part, as an expression of the State of Michigan's resolve that it will not only support victims, but it will affirmatively take up the cause of its citizens when they bring a complaint to the police and secure a conviction and carry that cause as far as the law and justice will allow in order to protect them and future victims from these types of horrible crimes.

Larry Nassar's statement expressed that these victims are attempting to gain something from this trial other than justice.  That these victims are only speaking out to get fame and money from his guilty plea.  The Court does not agree with Larry Nassar, finds his statements to be self-serving, improper, and a complete failure to show remorse or to take responsibility for his crimes and believes these statements should carry no weight in determining his sentence.

Based on the foregoing, the sentencing guidelines handed down by the legislature, and the applicable law and arguments, this Court is only empowered by law to sentence Larry Nassar to one hundred seventy five years in prison, or twenty-one hundred months. It does so by this order.

I am certain the victims would appreciate your sentencing more than they would mine. I also believe that part of  Judge's function is to educate about the process and to reflect, to an extent, community standards as that gives moral authority to the legal authority.  That said, when it comes to appeals, less is more.  Much less, is much more.  I would want to supply less to Appellate Council. The comfort of today can melt away tomorrow.  It is a tough decision.  As I said, I think her Honor did fine, great even.  I think your iteration would have been top notch.

In the end I believe words will always fail to fully and adequately capture and convey our  disgust and disdain for the Larry Nassar's of the world.  I wonder if his name will ewnter the lexicon?

 

[Sinn Fein]

I agree with @CletiusMaximus  Judges should not be part of the story.

I appreciate Judge Aquilina allowing all of the victims to have their say.  And, I have no issue with her setting Nassar in the witness chair so the victims could face him eye-to-eye.  But, some of the editorial comments during the sentencing phase were more Judge Judy and less impartial arbiter of justice.

He is 54 - he is already serving a 60 year federal prison sentence.  He will serve the 40-175 year sentence after the federal sentence - i.e. not concurrent.  And, he still faces additional sexual assault trials - presumably he will plead guilty in those cases also.  He was never getting out of jail.  All the theatrics around that were unnecessary.  Judges should be able to rise above the emotions of the trial - and act dispassionately. Its tough sometimes, but important, imo.

 

[Sinn Fein]

I do feel sorry for Nassar's wife, and more importantly his three kids.  They are equally victims in this but with even less of a support system in place.

 

[General Malaise]

I disagree with the fame point of view as well. Did you guys watch the video of her reading the sentence? She wasn't flaunting it. IMO, she sounded upset, disturbed, and even a little pissed off, by having to deal with such a colossal piece of garbage. 

Yeah, I agree with this guy.  

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I do allow that judges should make findings of fact when determining guilt or innocence, or when accepting pleas.  Those findings of fact can sometimes be comforting to victims. 

 

[Buzzbait]

Again, it happens in all types of crimes.  It's virtually irrelevant in those other crimes when they're reported.

If you have two stories next to each other in the newspaper, and one reads

"Man Claims He Saw His Neighbor Burn Down His House"

and the other reads

"Woman Says She Was Raped By Her Neighbor"

People are significantly more likely to believe the man who says his neighbor burned down his house.  Despite the fact that arson is one of the most fraudulently reported alleged crimes in the country.

From a logical POV you may be correct. The issue is that these aren't perceived the same. The reality is that they are treated differently and a woman who falsely reports that she was sexually abused is going to cause more harm and damage to the "Me too" campaign than the "My neighbor burned down his house" movement.

Pure speculation as to why that might be the case but if you are accused of burning down a house and the investigation finds you innocent there likely isn't a lasting impact. If you're accused of rape and found innocent people are still always going to look at you sideways. That's something that is likely to follow you around and having a lasting impact.

 

[Henry Ford]

I am certain the victims would appreciate your sentencing more than they would mine. I also believe that part of  Judge's function is to educate about the process and to reflect, to an extent, community standards as that gives moral authority to the legal authority.  That said, when it comes to appeals, less is more.  Much less, is much more.  the comfort of today and melt away tomorrow.  It is a tough decision.  as I said, I think her Honor did fine, great even.  I think your iteration would have been top notch.

In the I believe words will always fail to fully and adequately capture and convey our  disgust and disdain for the Larry Nassar's of the world.  I wonder if his name will ewnter the lexicon?

I agree generally, but I also think clarity in something like this can help quash an appeal.  "Why did he get the maximum?" is tough to appeal anyway, but if you clearly state that his offensive statements at sentencing resulting not in a higher sentence, but in them being given no weight, it can gut some attempts to challenge the sentence.

 

[Henry Ford]

From a logical POV you may be correct. The issue is that these aren't perceived the same. The reality is that they are treated differently and a woman who falsely reports that she was sexually abused is going to cause more harm and damage to the "Me too" campaign than the "My neighbor burned down his house" movement.

Pure speculation as to why that might be the case but if you are accused of burning down a house and the investigation finds you innocent there likely isn't a lasting impact. If you're accused of rape and found innocent people are still always going to look at you sideways. That's something that is likely to follow you around and having a lasting impact.

You think if you were seriously investigated for burning down your neighbor's house you're not going to get looked at kind of funny in your neighborhood?

And the guy who commits insurance fraud burning down his own house definitely causes harm to every person who has insurance or a fire insurance claim.

 

[Buzzbait]

Which should shine the brightest possible light on how we treat these victims in this country.  But it doesn't.  Instead, we're here talking about how women bring this on themselves because some false reports exist.

Absolutely. I mentioned in a previous post that I'm not sure exactly why false accusations have such an impact.

Regardless the spotlight should be on the victims as you put it Henry. It's simply unfathomable to me why/how 150 women were ignored for such a long period of time. This wasn't smoke it was a roaring inferno.

 

[Henry Ford]

Absolutely. I mentioned in a previous post that I'm not sure exactly why false accusations have such an impact.

Regardless the spotlight should be on the victims as you put it Henry. It's simply unfathomable to me why/how 150 women were ignored for such a long period of time. This wasn't smoke it was a roaring inferno.

That's what I'm saying.  The "well all the false allegations..." stuff is post-hoc rationalization for people in this country to feel better about the fact that we just don't believe women.  We just don't, as a nation, believe them.  That's why false accusations have such an impact in the argument, because it's confirmation of an existing bias, not what causes the bias.

 

[Hawkeye21]

Which should shine the brightest possible light on how we treat these victims in this country.  But it doesn't.  Instead, we're here talking about how women bring this on themselves because some false reports exist.

Whoa, whoa...  Who is saying that?  That was not my intent at all with what I was saying before if that's what you got from it.

 

[Buzzbait]

You think if you were seriously investigated for burning down your neighbor's house you're not going to get looked at kind of funny in your neighborhood?

And the guy who commits insurance fraud burning down his own house definitely causes harm to every person who has insurance or a fire insurance claim.

No I don't. Just look at what's reported in the media. How many false arson accusations do you read about per month? I'm around zero. How many false sexual abuse reports? Certainly more than zero.

Again, I'm not saying that's the way it should be but it seems obvious to me that's the reality.

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

I do feel sorry for Nassar's wife, and more importantly his three kids.  They are equally victims in this but with even less of a support system in place.

In local reports I’ve read that his wife and kids have received multiple death threats.

 

[Henry Ford]

Whoa, whoa...  Who is saying that?  That was not my intent at all with what I was saying before if that's what you got from it.

You said that one of the problems causing the fact that we don't believe women is the existence of false accusations by women.  Do you believe that women cause us to not believe women?

 

[Hawkeye21]

You said that one of the problems causing the fact that we don't believe women is the existence of false accusations by women.  Do you believe that women cause us to not believe women?

I believe it's a factor.  How is it not?

 

[Henry Ford]

I believe it's a factor.  How is it not?

Because it's not a cause in other areas of law, including ones with higher incident rates of false reports.  It's a confirmation bias reinforcer, not a cause.

 

[Sinn Fein]

In local reports I’ve read that his wife and kids have received multiple death threats.

That is sad.  I presume they will eventually move and change names - but this will obviously stick with them, and affect them, for the rest of their lives.  I hope the kids, in particular, get the support they will undoubtedly need.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

In local reports I’ve read that his wife and kids have received multiple death threats.

Passion running far ahead of reason.  His children, in particular, did not ask to be born from the line of this refuse.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I was willing to just argue that the athletic department needs to be ended. After reading the new Outside the Lines report..... I have no problem arguing that MSU should lose its charter and be decertified as an educational institution.   There better be more criminal charges for the people in charge there. I'm done playing nice.

Michigan State University, under U.S. Department of Education oversight since 2014 because of its mishandling of sexual assault and gender discrimination cases, asked federal officials last fall to end their monitoring of the university because administrators had been acting in "good faith" and had "gone above and beyond" in meeting standards laid out by federal officials, according to documents obtained by Outside the Lines.

The Oct. 17 request was rejected outright by federal officials for several reasons but in large part because of how the university has handled sexual assault allegations against former MSU athletics physician Larry Nassar, the documents obtained by Outside the Lines show:

Michigan State administrators in 2014 did not notify federal officials that the university had dual Title IX and campus police investigations of Nassar underway even though federal investigators were on campus that year scrutinizing how MSU dealt with sexual assault allegations.

MSU administrators still have not provided to federal officials all documents related to the Nassar allegations.

The Department of Education first became involved with Michigan State in 2010, when its Office for Civil Rights offered informal guidance to university administrators as they came under media scrutiny after a female student reported that she had been raped by two Michigan State basketball players. The woman filed a federal complaint about MSU's handling of her case in 2011.

In 2014, another female student alleged that MSU had mishandled a sexual assault allegation she had made, and she, too, filed a federal complaint. Based upon both complaints, the Office for Civil Rights opened a formal investigation.

Federal investigators visited the campus and reviewed documents in 2014. That year, a recent MSU graduate reported that Nassar had assaulted her under the guise of medical treatment. MSU campus police and Title IX investigations began. Federal investigators were not told of the allegations at the time, according to the correspondence obtained by Outside the Lines. Nassar was cleared in both investigations.

Even without knowledge of the Nassar allegations, the Office for Civil Rights investigation into how MSU handled sexual assault and gender discrimination cases ended with findings that MSU had fostered a "sexually hostile environment" on campus. Under terms of a 2015 agreement with the Office for Civil Rights to settle the findings, MSU administrators faced a litany of requirements and continuing federal oversight. One of those requirements mandated that the university provide the Office for Civil Rights notification and documentation of all prior complaints of sexual assault and harassment by a January 2016 deadline.

The records obtained by Outside the Lines show that MSU did not do so until almost a year later. Among the documents not provided by the deadline: reports made against Nassar.

Outside the Lines has learned that MSU still has not provided the complete Nassar paperwork. On Jan. 17 -- 10 months after MSU acknowledged the "unfortunate oversight" -- an attorney with the Office for Civil Rights wrote Michigan State to further inquire about the review of those missing files, because the office had not received any additional documentation. A university attorney responded by email later that day promising an update by Jan. 31.