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my take: the demise of American Manufacturing (1 Viewer)

No, no they won't (guessing you just can't spell and that is eventually).  Shows your complete lack of Asian culture and history.  Economies of scale will change the playing field like it has everywhere else, but otherwise industry revolves around means of production and processes.  China controls the means of production, it's not a free market by any means.  They will remain an industrial power for a long time, but since they can't really produce premium products, they'll never reach their ceiling like the U.S. or Germany did.  Keep an eye on India, if you know where that is.  :bye:
stalk much? have you won the innerweb yet? you certainly are trying the hardest
You're the moron that posted in the baseball thread after not posting there in a year.  You've never had a post that was worth the ####, and you shouldn't be talking about the subject at hand with an 8th grade education. Take care now. 

 
IMO, most of the bank issues could be solved by actually holding them accountable to rules and laws in existence.  Massive fraud and management incompetence is usually met with a slap on the wrist fine.  If they actually went after rule-breakers and punished them enough to more than offset the gained revenue, the larger banks might actually behave.

Putting more laws on the books that no one adequately enforces isn't going to solve it.
Let's not get side tracked here....I am very interested in the op's topic.   We can start another banking thread if needed.  

 
Fair enough. It was a natural place to go with the regulation discussion, but no need to stray further.
I don't doubt banks play a very important role, particularly for SMEs. But are SMEs the immediate play in manufacturing?

Maybe they should be because the big corps have actually outsourced manufacturing and near shoring is not going to take off any time soon without major changes in either Asian costing or Supply Chain risk.

Question is though, what to manufacture locally, and how to be competitive?

 
Doctor Detroit said:
You're the moron that posted in the baseball thread after not posting there in a year.  You've never had a post that was worth the ####, and you shouldn't be talking about the subject at hand with an 8th grade education. Take care now. 
oh man, its somebody's time of the month. I didn't post in a baseball thread for a year? call the thread police!!! oh yeah that's you.

 
Doctor Detroit said:
You're the moron that posted in the baseball thread after not posting there in a year.  You've never had a post that was worth the ####, and you shouldn't be talking about the subject at hand with an 8th grade education. Take care now. 


oh man, its somebody's time of the month. I didn't post in a baseball thread for a year? call the thread police!!! oh yeah that's you.
I'll kindly ask you to please pursue your personal feud somewhere else. 

This is supposed to be a grown up conversation about manufacturing in the US (and by proxy elsewhere in the Western world). It's a fairly serious topic that doesn't really need iPersonas iFigting over previous slights in other threads.

I am fairly sure that both of you, being veteran posters here, can understand that.

Thank you for your undertanding and compliance

 
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I'll kindly ask you to please pursue your personal feud somewhere else. 

This is supposed to be a grown up conversation about manufacturing in the US (and by proxy elsewhere in the Western world). It's a fairly serious topic that doesn't really need iPersonas iFigting over previous slights in other threads.

I am fairly sure that both of you, being veteran posters here, can understand that.

Thank you for your undertanding and compliance
Compliance?  Now you've done it.  

 
RedmondLonghorn said:
Some them were. And that is also a problem. When you remove risk from the equation for a lender, what happens to its incentives?
You lost me with this financial Mumbo jumbo

 
I can't find the post where somebody mentioned wood being cheaper out of China.  This is odd to me as I believe wood and paper are becoming very scarce in China.  For example, those big cargo ships that land on then west coast ports in the US filled with plastic trinkets and other consumer goods often return with recycled cardboard in them.  The Chinese started deforestation a long time ago

 
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Right -thats part of my point though.  The Chinese are more than capable of QC.  We taught them.  We are teaching them today.  I have a QA engineer colleague here today to help a different supplier with this.  I promise you, they will take what he teaches them and apply it to other companies.
QA is a doubled edged sword.  If we don't show them how to do it, they deliver bad products which cause huge issues up and down the supply chain.  But by teaching them, we are opening ourselves up for direct competition   I've been traveling to China for 20 years and have seen this first hand countless times   You are damned if you do and damned if you don't 

 
As an example, many years ago I worked for Motorola.  We designed cell phones in Florida, Illinois, and New Jersey.  All manufacturing was in a Motorola owned plant in Tianjin (outside of Beijing).  We enjoyed Chinese labor rates, and it was all good.  We also used a contract manufacturer for some stuff called Foxconn.  Foxconn took what they learned from Motorola and sold their expertise to Apple, who never built a Chinese manufacturing facility.  Today, Foxconn is basically Apples sole manufacturer, but they also manufacture products for other customers, as well as make their own products (i.e pentium motherboards and I assume other phone hardware suppliers).  As an American consumer, everything electronic I buy is likely made by someone with a relationship to Foxconn.


Great to see this post in retrospect, as Foxconn is opening a major manufacturing facility in my state in a deal which, it certainly seems, they completely hoodwinked our state government.  We're paying them billions (not all of which is tax credits, most is actual cash payments to Foxconn) giving them near-complete exemptions from our environmental protection laws, condemning tons of private property and building a massive new infrastructure just for them, all based on promises which seem more and more fraudulent by the day.

 
Is manufacturing coming back?  Compared to say two years anyway?
A friend of mine is the president of a small family-owned manufacturing company in the furniture business with facilities in several midwestern states.  Most of their customers are in the US.  Obviously, this is only his purely anecdotal experience.  I was out with him last week and he estimated approximately 30% of his work force are illegals who have decent (but probably fraudulent) documentation.  As is the common refrain, he can't find labor to meet his needs. Severely lowered standards, and still has to regularly fire people for unbelievably irresponsible, stupid behavior. 

 
Great to see this post in retrospect, as Foxconn is opening a major manufacturing facility in my state in a deal which, it certainly seems, they completely hoodwinked our state government.  We're paying them billions (not all of which is tax credits, most is actual cash payments to Foxconn) giving them near-complete exemptions from our environmental protection laws, condemning tons of private property and building a massive new infrastructure just for them, all based on promises which seem more and more fraudulent by the day.
"we're going to bring 10,000 new jobs!! ok, 3000.  ok 1000. but they're going to be very specialized high-tech jobs! okay, high-tech. alright, specialized... ok. sort of run of the mill.  but we'll have them building the latest in television technology! latest... as of 10 years ago. ok, 15. and it will be television related. sort of. but we're going to bring incredible revenue to the state! after each of your taxpayers forks over a few grand to let us do as we please.... okay, more than a few grand... and we're going to need your governor to sign off on everything we do. and the next governor, too.  and we'll need to be immune from any prosecution. in perpetuity. we plan on doing some really heinous #### here and we don't want it to bankrupt us. deal? great! we're going to run the best money laundering shell company you've ever seen!   okay, maybe Trump does it better.. maybe.. but we're going to be pretty good!"

 
"we're going to bring 10,000 new jobs!! ok, 3000.  ok 1000. but they're going to be very specialized high-tech jobs! okay, high-tech. alright, specialized... ok. sort of run of the mill.  but we'll have them building the latest in television technology! latest... as of 10 years ago. ok, 15. and it will be television related. sort of. but we're going to bring incredible revenue to the state! after each of your taxpayers forks over a few grand to let us do as we please.... okay, more than a few grand... and we're going to need your governor to sign off on everything we do. and the next governor, too.  and we'll need to be immune from any prosecution. in perpetuity. we plan on doing some really heinous #### here and we don't want it to bankrupt us. deal? great! we're going to run the best money laundering shell company you've ever seen!   okay, maybe Trump does it better.. maybe.. but we're going to be pretty good!"


The cherry on top of all this is, because of the location of the Foxconn facility, many the jobs will go to Illinois residents ...

 
"we're going to bring 10,000 new jobs!! ok, 3000.  ok 1000. but they're going to be very specialized high-tech jobs! okay, high-tech. alright, specialized... ok. sort of run of the mill.  but we'll have them building the latest in television technology! latest... as of 10 years ago. ok, 15. and it will be television related. sort of. but we're going to bring incredible revenue to the state! after each of your taxpayers forks over a few grand to let us do as we please.... okay, more than a few grand... and we're going to need your governor to sign off on everything we do. and the next governor, too.  and we'll need to be immune from any prosecution. in perpetuity. we plan on doing some really heinous #### here and we don't want it to bankrupt us. deal? great! we're going to run the best money laundering shell company you've ever seen!   okay, maybe Trump does it better.. maybe.. but we're going to be pretty good!"
They didn't tag the breaks on the number employed or payroll amount?  NY has been getting lots of flak over the Amazon deal, but at least they did that.

 
They didn't tag the breaks on the number employed or payroll amount?  NY has been getting lots of flak over the Amazon deal, but at least they did that.
how do you mean "break the tags"?

what i understand is the company said to Scott Walker "we're going to give you a boatload of money under the table.. do whatever you have to do to make this deal happen" so whatever he needed to say, he said.

any numbers on jobs, tax revenue, etc. was purely mythical until after the ink dried on the contract. then news started to leak out about the real truth of what was being done, what was being asked and what was required.

essentially... the truth is "lots less jobs than promised, lots less capital input from the company, lots more from state taxpayers." and the product they were reportedly going to be making here.. they aren't. it was "we're going to build this product that's at the absolute cutting edge of technology in its field. so far ahead of the current market that it requires the absolute most specialized workers in the market.. we're going to bring elite minds to your state".  but instead the reality is "we're going to build these CRT monitors that were actually phased out everywhere on the planet, except Rwanda, back in the middle 90s".

 
They didn't tag the breaks on the number employed or payroll amount?  NY has been getting lots of flak over the Amazon deal, but at least they did that.
There is reportedly some recoupment provision if certain benchmarks aren't met, but my understanding is that is very minimal.

 
mr. furley said:
how do you mean "break the tags"?

what i understand is the company said to Scott Walker "we're going to give you a boatload of money under the table.. do whatever you have to do to make this deal happen" so whatever he needed to say, he said.

any numbers on jobs, tax revenue, etc. was purely mythical until after the ink dried on the contract. then news started to leak out about the real truth of what was being done, what was being asked and what was required.

essentially... the truth is "lots less jobs than promised, lots less capital input from the company, lots more from state taxpayers." and the product they were reportedly going to be making here.. they aren't. it was "we're going to build this product that's at the absolute cutting edge of technology in its field. so far ahead of the current market that it requires the absolute most specialized workers in the market.. we're going to bring elite minds to your state".  but instead the reality is "we're going to build these CRT monitors that were actually phased out everywhere on the planet, except Rwanda, back in the middle 90s".
prince machabelli approves and simply needs your security code to ensure your transaction is secure.  

 
https://www.stltoday.com/business/local/foxconn-reconsidering-plans-for-big-u-s--based-factory/article_e2ab4a30-e958-5d5b-b834-9497fc4d4dd5.html

Uhh, Ohh.  Looks like Foxconn changing plans yet again.

Now, those plans may be scaled back or even shelved, Louis Woo, special assistant to Foxconn Chief Executive Terry Gou, told Reuters. He said the company was still evaluating options for Wisconsin, but cited the steep cost of making advanced TV screens in the United States, where labor expenses are comparatively high.

"In terms of TV, we have no place in the U.S.," he said in an interview. "We can't compete."
So this facility is now not going to produce product, surprise, surprise.  This project is so frustrating and will take decades to recoup the money given to this foreign company.

 
https://www.stltoday.com/business/local/foxconn-reconsidering-plans-for-big-u-s--based-factory/article_e2ab4a30-e958-5d5b-b834-9497fc4d4dd5.html

Uhh, Ohh.  Looks like Foxconn changing plans yet again.

So this facility is now not going to produce product, surprise, surprise.  This project is so frustrating and will take decades to recoup the money given to this foreign company.
After what is going on with Huawei, I would not want to come near the U.S. as a Chinese company, would you?

 
After what is going on with Huawei, I would not want to come near the U.S. as a Chinese company, would you?
I guess, but here's the problem there are state and local governments that took out bonds to pay for this project to buy land and build the infrastructure needed for a manufacturing facility.  People's homes and property were purchased via eminent domain.  Construction is ongoing with earth movers to build this monstrous campus.  They should stop now before they get too deep with the construction until they get a true understanding of the intentions.  For example, a new sewer system is necessary to for several miles to facilitate extracting and returning millions of gallons of water per day for the manufacturing of the product, but if they are not manufacturing DO NOT build the sewer system. 

 
I guess, but here's the problem there are state and local governments that took out bonds to pay for this project to buy land and build the infrastructure needed for a manufacturing facility.  People's homes and property were purchased via eminent domain.  Construction is ongoing with earth movers to build this monstrous campus.  They should stop now before they get too deep with the construction until they get a true understanding of the intentions.  For example, a new sewer system is necessary to for several miles to facilitate extracting and returning millions of gallons of water per day for the manufacturing of the product, but if they are not manufacturing DO NOT build the sewer system. 
Logic rarely plays a part in this monolithic construction projects, talk to me when you get to $9 billion with a B :rolleyes:

https://www.postandcourier.com/business/the-moment-that-helps-explain-how-south-carolina-lost-its/article_f1f39af4-b834-11e7-b6d3-c77a6c98059c.html

 
Turns out Wisconsin really played this one badly.

Wisconsin might not get a Foxconn plant of any size, analysts say

We already knew that Foxconn backtracked from the initial plan of a Gen 10.5 plant - one capable of delivering large screens, to a scaled down Gen 6.0 plant, designed for small screens like phones.  Now, that may still be in trouble.

Apparently the mistake was that Wisconsin did not simultaneously bring in Corning - or a similar glass manufacturer - to sit on an adjacent site - and the risk of damage to glass transported over longer distances makes it too expensive.

On top of that, there is a glut of glass screens in the market, and Foxconn itself recently cut 50,000 workers in China.

 
I've worked in the same factory for over 20 years.  The quality of the workers from the first few years to now is mind boggling.  The turnover is also insane.  Sooo lazy and a bunch of crybabies.  A guy filed a report to HR on me because I told him he was moving like a turtle.  Said I disrespected him lol

 
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I've worked in the same factory for over 20 years.  The quality of the workers from the first few years to now is mind boggling.  The turnover is also insane.  Sooo lazy and a bunch of crybabies.  A guy filed a report to HR on me because I told him he was moving like a turtle.  Said I disrespected him lol
This is what happens during full employment, we start to realize why there is a percentage of people that deserved to be unemployed that are now hired.

 
I've worked in the same factory for over 20 years.  The quality of the workers from the first few years to now is mind boggling.  The turnover is also insane.  Sooo lazy and a bunch of crybabies.  A guy filed a report to HR on me because I told him he was moving like a turtle.  Said I disrespected him lol
Same here. I see it every day. 

 

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