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Name your Top Five NFL QB's of All Time (1 Viewer)

:lmao: How can you criticize Elway for not having great numbers in the Super Bowl, while putting Marino and Manning up there?
What I said from the beginning was that people who put Elway ahead of Montana are either Denver fans, morons, or both. I can see arguments for Elway ahead of Marino, though I don't agree with them.
As for Plummer breaking records, it is common knowledge that passing numbers in general are higher and more gaudy than they were 10 or 20 years ago, so that is a silly comparison. Besides, what records has he actually broken? Please tell me.
Passing numbers are not more gaudy than 10 or 20 years ago. Look it up. In 1996 Favre threw for almost 3900 yards and 39 TDs. In 1986 Marino threw for 4746 yards and 44 TDs.Plummer now holds the Denver single-season passing yardage record, and is tied with Elway for single-season passing TDs.

 
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:lmao:   How can you criticize Elway for not having great numbers in the Super Bowl, while putting Marino and Manning up there? 
What I said from the beginning was that people who put Elway ahead of Montana are either Denver fans, morons, or both. I can see arguments for Elway ahead of Marino, though I don't agree with them.
As for Plummer breaking records, it is common knowledge that passing numbers in general are higher and more gaudy than they were 10 or 20 years ago, so that is a silly comparison.  Besides, what records has he actually broken?  Please tell me.
Passing numbers are not more gaudy than 10 or 20 years ago. Look it up. In 1996 Favre threw for almost 3900 yards and 39 TDs. In 1986 Marino threw for 4746 yards and 44 TDs.Plummer now holds the Denver single-season passing yardage record, and is tied with Elway for single-season passing TDs.
it's crazy, right? imagine what Elway would have done at age 30 with Rod Smith and an above average running game...Along those lines - Montana certainly benefited from his teammates, and if you disagree with that, you are either a SF fan, a moron, or both. Bill Walsh and the initial instillation of the west coast offense - what ever QB was going to be at the helm was pretty much guaranteed a spot in the HOF. Fact of the matter is that in those days, NO ONE had an answer for the WCO because no one else ran it. That is, Montana was the sole QB of a type of offense that would eventually change the way the game is played for at least the next 25 years.

 
I know you are comparing Montana to Elway here, but I disagree on many fronts. Elway's accuracy was not goo enough to be in any top 4. My 5 had Elway 5 but he would be tiered below the top 4. I would agree that Montana had more talent around him, but at the end of his career he showed he was a master at the game winning drive in KC.

That being said Marino, by far, had the worst supporting cast as he never had a good RB and his defenses were not even close to the niners or Broncos. If Marino had a defense people would be only debating who was #2. The ONE time Marino had a decent D he went to the SB only to see Montana score TD's on their 1st two possessions before Marino even got going.
I don't see why accuracy is such a be-all end-all statistic for QBs. System and supporting cast both have a HUGE impact on QB accuracy.Here's a hypothetical situation for you. Let's say QBA completes 100% of his short passes (under 10 yards) and 50% of his long passes (over 10 yards). QBB completes 80% of his short passes (under 10 yards) and 10% of his long passes (over 10 yards). I'm sure we'll agree that QBA is drastically more accurate than QBB on all of the throws.

Now, let's say that QBA throws 100 short passes and 400 long passes. He winds up with 300 completions for a 60% completion rate. QBB throws 100 long passes and 400 short passes. He winds up with 330 completions for a 66% completion rate.

I think Elway was plenty accurate. Not laser-accurate like Montana, Marino, and Favre, but still a very accurate QB... and he possessed a lot of tools that none of those guys had. Only Favre could match his arm strength. He could make a TON of throws that Marino or Montana simply couldn't make. Nobody on that list matched his improvisational ability, and only Montana even APPROACHED his clutch performance. Until Steve Young came along, nobody in the NFL was as dangerous as John Elway was. As for Young... he'd be the #1 QB on my list, if he'd only had a longer prime. Yeah, I know, that wasn't his fault. Very unfair, but that's how it is.

Also, I could easily debate the worst supporting cast arguement. First off, adding an RB would have boosted Marinos efficiency most likely, but would have cut his attempts enough that I'm convinced that he would have put up pretty similar numbers. I mean, the guy had TWELVE SEASONS where he was in the top 5 in the NFL in pass attempts. That's ABSURD. Second off, though... and here's the biggie... for the vast majority of his career, Marino was throwing to Mark Clayton and Mark Duper, both pro bowlers. If you don't think that throwing to not one but TWO PRO BOWL WRS made Marino look a lot better, then you're kidding yourself.

Montana won back-to-back AP MVP awards in 1989-1990. And he did win two Super Bowls before Jerry Rice joined the team though I suppose even Dwight Clark was still better than anybody Elway had to throw to before Rod Smith came along.
I was under the impression from Montana's HoF page (which lists all awards won) that Montana never won a single league MVP award.
So in short, you think Elway was the man, and everybody else has faults.The next time you compair Elway to Montana, don't forget to compair Super Bowl wins instead of how many times they got there in a decade.
Again, I've told you about my perceptions of the talent disparity between the Niners teams and the Broncos teams. Elway has 1 more appearance and 2 fewer wins. A slightly lesser accomplishment (although not much lesser, because even MAKING the superbowl is still quite an accomplishment), but only if you're judging in a vaccuum. I mean, if Alex Smith led the 49ers to the SB last season and lost, that accomplishment would be FAR more impressive than Roethlesberger leading the Steelers to the SB and winning. Disagree?
I was under the impression from Montana's HoF page (which lists all awards won) that Montana never won a single league MVP award.
Montana's HoF page.Click on "Career Highlights".

Scroll down to "Awards and Honors".

1989 MVP/Player of the Year (PFWA, AP, NEA, SN, MX)

1990 MVP/Player of the Year (AP)
Thanks, exactly what I was looking for. :thumbup:
Fourth quarter comebacks are almost entirely a function of how likely you are to be behind in the fourth quarter. Jake Plummer has more fourth-quarter comebacks on a per game basis than John Elway, and even more if you consider them as a function of total wins. It's a meaningless stat. (Oh, and by the way, Jake Plummer is also breaking all of Elway's Denver season records. If your records are being broken by Jake Plummer, you're not one of the best of all time).
First point. To come back in the 4th quarter, you have to be BEHIND in the 4th quarter. Very true. And how does a team get behind in the fourth quarter? Well, usually, it's because they're playing BETTER TEAMS. Denver wasn't a great team during Elway's first 12 years. They frequently trailed because they were simply facing better teams. The fact that Elway had so many comebacks was partly a function of how clutch he was, and partly a function of how mediocre the rest of his teams were. I mean, you're right- how many comebacks did he post in 1996, 1997, or 1998, when he had a good team? Not nearly as many.Second point. Jake Plummer. Can we stop bashing him for what he did or did not accomplish in Arizona? Jake Plummer is easily one of the top-10 QBs in the entire NFL. Just look at his numbers on a decent team to prove it. He puts up huge yards and TDs, and people complain about his INTs. So he goes and posts the lowest INT rate in the entire NFL, and people complain about him costing his team the Pittsburgh game (they were down by something like 17 points before Plummer first turned the ball over, so I don't buy the arguement that he lost because he turned it over- I think it's more likely that he turned it over because they were losing). What can Jake Plummer do to PROVE TO YOU ALL that the fact that he sucked in Arizona is because HIS TEAM SUCKED IN ARIZONA?!

Archie Manning is widely considered the best QB to ever play for a bad team, so let's look at his career numbers to see what we can expect from a great QB on a bad team. Hmmm... interesting. After 6 seasons in New Orleans, Manning's numbers were 862 of 1696 (50.8% completion rate) for 9983 yards (5.89 ypa) with 55 TDs (3.2%) and 87 INTs (5.1%). After 6 seasons in Arizona, Plummer's numbers were 1540 of 2754 (55.9%) for 17622 (6.40 ypa) with 90 TDs (3.3%) and 114 INTs (4.1%). Iiiiiiiinteresting.

Edit: To go back to the 4th quarter comebacks... you mentioned that Jake Plummer has a lot of 4th quarter comebacks. You're right. He had something like 20 in his first 6 years in Arizona, and he has something like 3 in his 3 years in Denver. Clearly Jake Plummer is the same QB. I mean, he hasn't gotten any worse or less clutch than he was before. So why did he have so many comebacks in Arizona? Because he was PLAYING ON A HORRIBLE TEAM THAT WAS ALWAYS BEHIND.

So let's ask this one more time. Why did Elway have so many 4th quarter comebacks compared to Joe Montana?

Norwood had not made a 46+ yard field goal the entire year, so it's not like Buffalo could really be said to have a good chance to win the game on that kick. And even if Buffalo had won that game, the NFC "only" winning 14 out of 15 Super Bowls is still complete dominance, in the context of the NFL.

Elway's playoff stats were against the pathetically weak AFC. And even so, if you consider all of his playoff and Super Bowl stats together, he completed 54.6% of his passes with 27 TD and 21 INT in 17 games. Hardly the stuff of legend. Montana's playoff stats? 63.3% completions, 44 TD, 21 INT in 19 games. Oh, and four Super Bowl wins in four tries.
Basing your arguements about which conference is a tougher conference on the Superbowl is pointless, asinine, and just plain stupid. Consider:The NFC has a team that goes 4-0 against the AFC and goes undefeated on the season. Every other team combines to go 0-60 against the AFC. The 4-0 team goes on to win the superbowl. The average record of NFC teams is 6.25 and 9.75. The average record of AFC teams is 9.75 and 6.25. The AFC is 60-4 against the NFC. Would you say that the AFC was "pathetically weak" that season because it didn't win the superbowl? If you would, I would say that you're an idiot.

Winning the superbowl only demonstrates that the BEST team in one conference was better than the BEST team in another. To get a clear look at overall conference quality, you have to look at the head-to-head record. And here's a surprise for you... the "pathetically weak" AFC had a WINNING RECORD against the "superior" NFC during that 15-straight superbowl run.

While it was clear that the best 2 teams were in the NFC in any given season, I would be willing to bet you that the average AFC playoff team had more wins than the average NFC playoff team, and that the AFC playoff squads had a better record against the NFC than the NFC playoff squads had against the AFC.

And we come once more to the comparison of statistics. Like I said, the quality of the surrounding talent plays a HUGE ROLE in the quality of statistics a QB will put up. Jake Plummer is the PERFECT example. Compare his Denver stats to his Arizona stats. And once again, I argue that Joe Montana had a much better surrounding cast. He played on a team that averaged twice as many pro-bowlers per season than Denver's squad, and oh yeah, his head coach was Bill Walsh instead of Dan Reeves (career winning percentage with Elway- 62.0%. Career winning percentage WITHOUT Elway- 46.7%).

Let's look at Elway's numbers when he had a quality supporting cast and a great head coach, shall we? 126/220 (57%) for 1643 (7.5 ypa) with 8 TDs and 3 INTs. Oh, and 2 superbowl wins in 2 tries. Not too shabby for a guy who was well past his prime and whose skills were clearly nowhere near where they were at his peak, wouldn't you say? If you want, we could compare it to a past-his-prime Montana (defined as Montana in KC). Montana in KC was 85 of 141 (60%) for 1014 (7.2 ypa) with 6 TDs and 4 INTs. And 0 superbowl wins. So... more ypa, more TDs, fewer INTs... looks like a clear advantage to Elway, from where *I* am sitting, even if you don't include the 2 SB titles.

 
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Let's look at Elway's numbers when he had a quality supporting cast and a great head coach, shall we? 126/220 (57%) for 1643 (7.5 ypa) with 8 TDs and 3 INTs. Oh, and 2 superbowl wins in 2 tries. Not too shabby for a guy who was well past his prime and whose skills were clearly nowhere near where they were at his peak, wouldn't you say? If you want, we could compare it to a past-his-prime Montana (defined as Montana in KC). Montana in KC was 85 of 141 (60%) for 1014 (7.2 ypa) with 6 TDs and 4 INTs. And 0 superbowl wins. So... more ypa, more TDs, fewer INTs... looks like a clear advantage to Elway, from where *I* am sitting, even if you don't include the 2 SB titles.
OK, so it's "both."
 
1. Otto Graham

2. Joe Montana

3. Fran Tarkenton

4. John Elway

5. Roger Staubach

6. Johnny Unitas

7. Dan Fouts

8. Dan Marino

9. Y.A. Tittle

10. Bobby Layne

All combined winning with personal and peer excellence over an extended period of play.

 
Although I don't have him in my top 5, I am loving the love that Otto Graham is getting. What was he, like 10 of 12 in championships? OK maybe not that dominate, but he was the man. Played in Chuck Taylors!

 
I know you are comparing Montana to Elway here, but I disagree on many fronts.  Elway's accuracy was not goo enough to be in any top 4.  My 5 had Elway 5 but he would be tiered below the top 4.  I would agree that Montana had more talent around him, but at the end of his career he showed he was a master at the game winning drive in KC.

That being said Marino, by far, had the worst supporting cast as he never had a good RB and his defenses were not even close to the niners or Broncos.  If Marino had a defense people would be only debating who was #2.  The ONE time Marino had a decent D he went to the SB only to see Montana score TD's on their 1st two possessions before Marino even got going.
I don't see why accuracy is such a be-all end-all statistic for QBs. System and supporting cast both have a HUGE impact on QB accuracy.Here's a hypothetical situation for you. Let's say QBA completes 100% of his short passes (under 10 yards) and 50% of his long passes (over 10 yards). QBB completes 80% of his short passes (under 10 yards) and 10% of his long passes (over 10 yards). I'm sure we'll agree that QBA is drastically more accurate than QBB on all of the throws.

Now, let's say that QBA throws 100 short passes and 400 long passes. He winds up with 300 completions for a 60% completion rate. QBB throws 100 long passes and 400 short passes. He winds up with 330 completions for a 66% completion rate.

I think Elway was plenty accurate. Not laser-accurate like Montana, Marino, and Favre, but still a very accurate QB... and he possessed a lot of tools that none of those guys had. Only Favre could match his arm strength. He could make a TON of throws that Marino or Montana simply couldn't make. Nobody on that list matched his improvisational ability, and only Montana even APPROACHED his clutch performance. Until Steve Young came along, nobody in the NFL was as dangerous as John Elway was. As for Young... he'd be the #1 QB on my list, if he'd only had a longer prime. Yeah, I know, that wasn't his fault. Very unfair, but that's how it is.

Also, I could easily debate the worst supporting cast arguement. First off, adding an RB would have boosted Marinos efficiency most likely, but would have cut his attempts enough that I'm convinced that he would have put up pretty similar numbers. I mean, the guy had TWELVE SEASONS where he was in the top 5 in the NFL in pass attempts. That's ABSURD. Second off, though... and here's the biggie... for the vast majority of his career, Marino was throwing to Mark Clayton and Mark Duper, both pro bowlers. If you don't think that throwing to not one but TWO PRO BOWL WRS made Marino look a lot better, then you're kidding yourself.
First, I never said accuracy was the "such a be-all end-all statistic for QBs." All I said was Elway was not very accurate. The knock on him was not as severe but similar to Michael Vick in that he missed wide open guys frequently. Elway had arm strength but Marino could get the ball in the hands of the receiver quicker when you take his release into account and definitely more accurately. Elway was a MUCH better scrambler, but that is it. As for your example, it is not even correct. Marino had better accuracy AND better yards per attempt than Elway.

Let me put this into perspective for you. For Elway to equal what Marino did he would have had to ADD this to his career. He would have to attempt 1100 more passes and complete 75% of them for 8.9 yards per pass attempt with 120 TD's and only 26 picks! That would be a Sandy Koufax career!

Complete Attempts pct Yards YPA TD's PicksDM 4967 8358 59.4 61361 7.3 420 252JE 4123 7250 56.9 51475 7.1 300 226 In terms of supporting cast, you have to be kidding right? Yeah, Duper and Clayton were good receivers, but Marino, a terrible D and no RB made them throw all the time which padded their stats. Clayton's stats were excellent, but he was not a great receiver, in fact most knowledgeable Dolphin fans know that Duper was the better receiver, but he received more attention because Clayton dropped a lot of easy passes. That being said, they were a little better than Elway's 3 receivers. Elway had a RB and a very good defense and that is why he won.

Look, teams did nothing but try and stop Marino to win games against the Dolphins and they couldn't. Against Elway you had to still stop the run and score points and then deal with Elway. Marino was just better.

 
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First, I never said accuracy was the "such a be-all end-all statistic for QBs." All I said was Elway was not very accurate. The knock on him was not as severe but similar to Michael Vick in that he missed wide open guys frequently. Elway had arm strength but Marino could get the ball in the hands of the receiver quicker when you take his release into account and definitely more accurately. Elway was a MUCH better scrambler, but that is it.

As for your example, it is not even correct. Marino had better accuracy AND better yards per attempt than Elway.

Let me put this into perspective for you. For Elway to equal what Marino did he would have had to ADD this to his career. He would have to attempt 1100 more passes and complete 75% of them for 8.9 yards per pass attempt with 120 TD's and only 26 picks! That would be a Sandy Koufax career!

Complete Attempts pct Yards YPA TD's PicksDM 4967 8358 59.4 61361 7.3 420 252JE 4123 7250 56.9 51475 7.1 300 226 In terms of supporting cast, you have to be kidding right? Yeah, Duper and Clayton were good receivers, but Marino, a terrible D and no RB made them throw all the time which padded their stats. Clayton's stats were excellent, but he was not a great receiver, in fact most knowledgeable Dolphin fans know that Duper was the better receiver, but he received more attention because Clayton dropped a lot of easy passes. That being said, they were a little better than Elway's 3 receivers. Elway had a RB and a very good defense and that is why he won.

Look, teams did nothing but try and stop Marino to win games against the Dolphins and they couldn't. Against Elway you had to still stop the run and score points and then deal with Elway. Marino was just better.
First, John Elway was an accurate QB. I don't know where this criticism about "missing wide open WRs" comes from, because in Denver, the WRs didn't get wide open very often. And when they did, Elway's line bought him far less time to find them than Marino's did.Second, it's not like Elway's running game was sublime, here. Over his first 12 seasons, it finished ranked, on average, 16th in the NFL. That's bottom 50%. And that defense that Elway supposedly had and Marino didn't? Average rank = 18th.

But let's look deeper at the supporting cast of Marino vs. Elway in the first 12 seasons.

During Marino's first 12 seasons, 44 of his teammates made the Pro Bowl.

During Elway's first 12 seasons, 30 of his teammates made the Pro Bowl.

During Marino's first 12 seasons, an OL got sent to the pro bowl 17 times.

During Elway's first 12 seasons, an OL got sent to the pro bowl 3 times.

During Marino's first 12 seasons, a WR got sent to the pro bowl 10 times.

During Elway's first 12 seasons, a WR got sent to the pro bowl 0 times.

Dan Marino's coach for his first 12 seasons was Don Shula.

John Elway's coach for his first 12 seasons was Dan Reeves.

During Marino's first 12 seasons, Miami made the playoffs 6 times and the superbowl once.

During Elway's first 12 seasons, Denver made the playoffs 9 times and the superbowl 3 times.

Tell me, which environment do you think would be more conducive to putting up fantastic numbers?

I didn't compare years 13-16, because Elway put up higher yardage totals, a higher ypa, more TDs, and the same number of INTs. Elway also led his team to the most wins ever in a 3-season span, and got 2 superbowl titles, to boot. That's what John Elway was capable of at age 35-38. Imagine what he would have been capable with that kind of supporting cast at age 28.

 
In no particular order:

Marino

Elway

Unitas

YA Tittle

Otto Graham

Warner doesn't deserve a mention even in the top 10. He was very good bu only for a short time.

 
During Marino's first 12 seasons, a WR got sent to the pro bowl 10 times.

During Elway's first 12 seasons, a WR got sent to the pro bowl 0 times.
In the John Elway Reality Distortion Zone, everything the Broncos did that was good was due to John Elway, and everything that was bad was due to everyone else.A great QB makes his receivers better. The fact that Denver had no Pro Bowl receivers in Elway's first 12 years is partly Elway's fault, not an easy excuse for his mediocrity. If Elway were QB in Indianapolis today, his fans would be telling us about how lame that Marvin Harrison guy is.

You also conveniently forgot to mention that Elway had the advantage of throwing to a sure-fire Hall of Fame TE for nine years of his career.

 
During Marino's first 12 seasons, a WR got sent to the pro bowl 10 times.

During Elway's first 12 seasons, a WR got sent to the pro bowl 0 times.
In the John Elway Reality Distortion Zone, everything the Broncos did that was good was due to John Elway, and everything that was bad was due to everyone else.A great QB makes his receivers better. The fact that Denver had no Pro Bowl receivers in Elway's first 12 years is partly Elway's fault, not an easy excuse for his mediocrity. If Elway were QB in Indianapolis today, his fans would be telling us about how lame that Marvin Harrison guy is.

You also conveniently forgot to mention that Elway had the advantage of throwing to a sure-fire Hall of Fame TE for nine years of his career.
A great QB makes his receivers better, but not even a great QB can make pro bowlers out of scrubs. I mean, even Marino. He threw to a ton of different WRs... but the only ones to ever make the pro bowl were Clayton and Duper (and Fryer, who was a pro bowler before he ever played with Marino). If Dan Marino was such a great QB, how come he never made a pro bowler out of O.J. MacDuffie? How come he never made a pro bowler out of Mark Ingram?And as for the Marvin Harrison comparison... come on, now you're just being stupid. Rod Smith made the pro bowl with Elway at the helm. Marvin Harrison is a better reciever than Rod Smith. Do the math. I mean, obviously Elway was capable of "making pro bowl WRs", because he did it late in his career (coincidentally, late in his career was the first time he was playing with above-average WRs. Weird how that works out, isn't it?)

And ah yes, I forgot to mention Shannon Sharpe. Okay, let's go back and see how many pro bowl seasons there were by a Denver or Miami TE in the first 12 years of Elway and Marino's career. Hmmm... 3 for Denver... and 3 for Miami.

Speaking of forgetting to mention, way to completely gloss over the fact that Marino had SEVENTEEN OFFENSIVE LINEMEN SENT TO THE PRO BOWL WHILE ELWAY HAD THREE. I'm sure that's not at all a relevant point to this discussion. I mean, what sort of impact could an offensive line possibly have on QB production?

There's no more of a Bronco's Distortion Zone than there is of a Dolphins Distortion Zone, where somehow Marino miraculously managed to not just throw all the balls, but to block for himself, and to singlehandedly will his WRs to get open and make the catches. No, no, the fact that he had DRASTICALLY better WRs and Linemen than Elway didn't at all impact his numbers. Not in the slightest. You see, the WRs only made the pro bowl because they had Dan Marino throwing to them. And the Linemen only made the pro bowl because they had Dan Marino behind them throwing. Everything good that Miami did was a result of Dan Marino, right?

 
CalBear, SSOG is destroying you in this thread right now, so I really have nothing else to add right now. SSOG has presented numerous facts to demonstrate how absurd the choice of Marino over Elway is and you continue to live in denial. Tell me, what color is the sky in your world?

 
Any list without Johnny Unitas is wrong
:thumbup: cheers! good posting!

I'll add Otto Graham. In the ten years he played, he took the Browns to the Championship game 10 times. Never missed a single NFL game. Won 3 NFL titles and 4 AAFC Championships.

Bart Starr - led the league in passing three times, won 5 NFL titles AND 2 SuperBowls, was SB MVP twice, 1966-67. any list WITHOUT Starr is a sham.

Unitas

Joe Montana

Tom Brady - 2 SB MVP's, twice leading his team to victory on the last drive.

 
CalBear, SSOG is destroying you in this thread right now, so I really have nothing else to add right now. SSOG has presented numerous facts to demonstrate how absurd the choice of Marino over Elway is and you continue to live in denial. Tell me, what color is the sky in your world?
In the John Elway Reality Distortion Zone, you also don't have to notice that I have never once in this thread argued that Marino should be ranked ahead of Elway. Please try to keep up.
 
--I had to see them with my own eyes - this began in 1979.

--more credence given to winning than stats

--more credit given to SB appearances than most give(winning ANY championship game is difficult)

1)Joe Montana - cool under pressure. That KC/Denver game in 1994 was truly a testament to his greatness and will forever make me rank him above the guy he beat that night.

2)John Elway - the definition of 'heart'. Managed to get his team to the big games year after year, and did it on sheer will.

3)Tom Brady - best decision-maker I've ever seen. All QB's singlehandledly lose games from time to time. He's maybe been primarlily responsible for 4 or 5 losses since he became the starter. That is simply unreal.

4)Brett Favre - 13 winning seasons in a row before the 2005 debacle - the 24 preceding years only saw 5 winning seasons in GB. Has always had his bad games which ultimately tarnish his legacy. But when he was on, he was by far the best QB of all time.

5)Steve Young - another error-averse guy who rarely lost his team a game. In addition to his impressive resume, he pulled off a stunt unmatched by any other player in any other sport - he stepped into a legends shoes and surpassed what were beyond unrealistic expectations. No player in any sport has ever done this as well as Young did when Montana left. I wonder if anyone will.

Yes, Marino failed to make my list. The guy had below-average intangibles and definately did not make the players around him play better. His stats are mind-boggling, but he had the benefit of playing in a pass-first, second, and third offense his entire career. A few impressive games stand out in my head (the MNF win against the undefeated Bears for one) and he most definately was a HoFer, but I strongly believe that he will forever be associated with QBs who had him outclassed simply due to his numbers.

 
1. Joe Montana

2. Dan Marino

3. John Elway

4. Brett Favre

5. Bart Starr

6. Johnny Unitas

7. Steve Young

8. Dan Fouts

9. Tom Brady

10. Troy Aikman
This is clearly the best ranking of all time
 
CalBear, SSOG is destroying you in this thread right now, so I really have nothing else to add right now. SSOG has presented numerous facts to demonstrate how absurd the choice of Marino over Elway is and you continue to live in denial. Tell me, what color is the sky in your world?
In the John Elway Reality Distortion Zone, you also don't have to notice that I have never once in this thread argued that Marino should be ranked ahead of Elway. Please try to keep up.
:lmao: Look, you are the one who started the b.s. in this thread with your "anyone who puts Elway ahead of Montana is a Denver fan, a moron or both" comment. I mean, why be so aggressive? It would benefit the discussion much better to come in and give reasons why you think Montana is better than Elway, which I would have no problem with one saying, rather than coming in and saying stupid comments like the one above. You've pretty much stopped debating us in this thread once we presented arguments you knew you could not debunk. If you can, please do. It sure beats arguing with you over semantics.

Passing numbers are not more gaudy than 10 or 20 years ago. Look it up. In 1996 Favre threw for almost 3900 yards and 39 TDs. In 1986 Marino threw for 4746 yards and 44 TDs.
Yes, they are. YOU look it up. Sure, Favre and Marino put up great numbers 10 and 20 years ago, but more QB's put up bigger yardage every year now.
Plummer now holds the Denver single-season passing yardage record, and is tied with Elway for single-season passing TDs.
So? That doesn't mean anything. Plummer's yardage total is also higher than any Montana ever posted either. Steve Bueurlein once threw for 38 or 39 TD's in a season (cannot remember the exact number), which is 7 or 8 more than Montana's high. What does it mean? Nothing.
 
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1. Joe Montana

2. Tom Brady

3. Johnny Unitas

4. Sid Luckman

5. John Elway

6. Dan Marino

7. Bart Starr

8. Otto Graham

9. YA Tittle

10. Joe Namath

 
Palmer? Come on......... after two good seasons? Maybe in 10 years you can add his name but not today.

Not in any order.......

Fouts

Tarkenton

Marino

Johnny U

Elway

 
1 Dan Marino

2 Johnny Unitas

3 Joe Montana

4 Roman Gabriel

5 Kenny Stabler

The last 2 I just loved to watch more than any others.

 
Passing numbers are not more gaudy than 10 or 20 years ago. Look it up. In 1996 Favre threw for almost 3900 yards and 39 TDs. In 1986 Marino threw for 4746 yards and 44 TDs.
Yes, they are. YOU look it up. Sure, Favre and Marino put up great numbers 10 and 20 years ago, but more QB's put up bigger yardage every year now.
You really should run a sanity-check before you attempt to make factual claims.The average team had the following passing stats:

2005: 3491 yards, 6.8 ypa, 20.125 TDs

1995: 3768 yards, 6.8 ypa, 22.1 TDs

1985: 3625 yards, 7.0 ypa, 21.4 TDs

 
First, I never said accuracy was the "such a be-all end-all statistic for QBs."  All I said was Elway was not very accurate.  The knock on him was not as severe but similar to Michael Vick in that he missed wide open guys frequently.  Elway had arm strength but Marino could get the ball in the hands of the receiver quicker when you take his release into account and definitely more accurately.  Elway was a MUCH better scrambler, but that is it. 

As for your example, it is not even correct.  Marino had better accuracy AND better yards per attempt than Elway. 

Let me put this into perspective for you.  For Elway to equal what Marino did he would have had to ADD this to his career.  He would have to attempt 1100 more passes and complete 75% of them for 8.9 yards per pass attempt with 120 TD's and only 26 picks!  That would be a Sandy Koufax career!

Complete Attempts pct Yards YPA TD's PicksDM 4967 8358 59.4 61361 7.3 420 252JE  4123 7250 56.9 51475 7.1 300 226 In terms of supporting cast, you have to be kidding right?  Yeah, Duper and Clayton were good receivers, but Marino, a terrible D and no RB made them throw all the time which padded their stats.  Clayton's stats were excellent, but he was not a great receiver, in fact most knowledgeable Dolphin fans know that Duper was the better receiver, but he received more attention because Clayton dropped a lot of easy passes.  That being said, they were a little better than Elway's 3 receivers.  Elway had a RB and a very good defense and that is why he won. 

Look, teams did nothing but try and stop Marino to win games against the Dolphins and they couldn't.  Against Elway you had to still stop the run and score points and then deal with Elway.  Marino was just better.
First, John Elway was an accurate QB. I don't know where this criticism about "missing wide open WRs" comes from, because in Denver, the WRs didn't get wide open very often. And when they did, Elway's line bought him far less time to find them than Marino's did.Second, it's not like Elway's running game was sublime, here. Over his first 12 seasons, it finished ranked, on average, 16th in the NFL. That's bottom 50%. And that defense that Elway supposedly had and Marino didn't? Average rank = 18th.

But let's look deeper at the supporting cast of Marino vs. Elway in the first 12 seasons.

During Marino's first 12 seasons, 44 of his teammates made the Pro Bowl.

During Elway's first 12 seasons, 30 of his teammates made the Pro Bowl.

During Marino's first 12 seasons, an OL got sent to the pro bowl 17 times.

During Elway's first 12 seasons, an OL got sent to the pro bowl 3 times.

During Marino's first 12 seasons, a WR got sent to the pro bowl 10 times.

During Elway's first 12 seasons, a WR got sent to the pro bowl 0 times.

Dan Marino's coach for his first 12 seasons was Don Shula.

John Elway's coach for his first 12 seasons was Dan Reeves.

During Marino's first 12 seasons, Miami made the playoffs 6 times and the superbowl once.

During Elway's first 12 seasons, Denver made the playoffs 9 times and the superbowl 3 times.

Tell me, which environment do you think would be more conducive to putting up fantastic numbers?

I didn't compare years 13-16, because Elway put up higher yardage totals, a higher ypa, more TDs, and the same number of INTs. Elway also led his team to the most wins ever in a 3-season span, and got 2 superbowl titles, to boot. That's what John Elway was capable of at age 35-38. Imagine what he would have been capable with that kind of supporting cast at age 28.
Pro bowl starters is a poor way of looking at players unless you are comparing two players. If you have 2 pro bowlers on your line and 3 scrubs is that better than 5 good guys? Also, do you ever think that having Marino took some of his guys to the Pro Bowl? His quick release saved them MANY sacks. The Dolphins record when Marino didn't play was awful (I am not sure what Elways was)You post the RB and D stats for Elway's teams, care to compare to Marino's?

Finally, you are incorrect about Elway being inaccurate. if you watched the NFL that was the talk/knock about him for the first half of his career. Look at his % for that time. It wasn't until he had a ultra stud RB that his % went up.

You are entitled to your opinion

 
During Marino's first 12 seasons, a WR got sent to the pro bowl 10 times.

During Elway's first 12 seasons, a WR got sent to the pro bowl 0 times.
In the John Elway Reality Distortion Zone, everything the Broncos did that was good was due to John Elway, and everything that was bad was due to everyone else.A great QB makes his receivers better. The fact that Denver had no Pro Bowl receivers in Elway's first 12 years is partly Elway's fault, not an easy excuse for his mediocrity. If Elway were QB in Indianapolis today, his fans would be telling us about how lame that Marvin Harrison guy is.

You also conveniently forgot to mention that Elway had the advantage of throwing to a sure-fire Hall of Fame TE for nine years of his career.
A great QB makes his receivers better, but not even a great QB can make pro bowlers out of scrubs. I mean, even Marino. He threw to a ton of different WRs... but the only ones to ever make the pro bowl were Clayton and Duper (and Fryer, who was a pro bowler before he ever played with Marino). If Dan Marino was such a great QB, how come he never made a pro bowler out of O.J. MacDuffie? How come he never made a pro bowler out of Mark Ingram?And as for the Marvin Harrison comparison... come on, now you're just being stupid. Rod Smith made the pro bowl with Elway at the helm. Marvin Harrison is a better reciever than Rod Smith. Do the math. I mean, obviously Elway was capable of "making pro bowl WRs", because he did it late in his career (coincidentally, late in his career was the first time he was playing with above-average WRs. Weird how that works out, isn't it?)

And ah yes, I forgot to mention Shannon Sharpe. Okay, let's go back and see how many pro bowl seasons there were by a Denver or Miami TE in the first 12 years of Elway and Marino's career. Hmmm... 3 for Denver... and 3 for Miami.

Speaking of forgetting to mention, way to completely gloss over the fact that Marino had SEVENTEEN OFFENSIVE LINEMEN SENT TO THE PRO BOWL WHILE ELWAY HAD THREE. I'm sure that's not at all a relevant point to this discussion. I mean, what sort of impact could an offensive line possibly have on QB production?

There's no more of a Bronco's Distortion Zone than there is of a Dolphins Distortion Zone, where somehow Marino miraculously managed to not just throw all the balls, but to block for himself, and to singlehandedly will his WRs to get open and make the catches. No, no, the fact that he had DRASTICALLY better WRs and Linemen than Elway didn't at all impact his numbers. Not in the slightest. You see, the WRs only made the pro bowl because they had Dan Marino throwing to them. And the Linemen only made the pro bowl because they had Dan Marino behind them throwing. Everything good that Miami did was a result of Dan Marino, right?
SSOG, I really could pick apart your arguments because they you are being disinegnuous with your stats. For ONE example, you make it seem like Marino had TE's that were equal to S. Sharpe because they each went to 3 Pro Bowls! This is absurd.I am content in my analysis from watching as much or more football than most (I have 4 TV's in ONE room) and looking at the stats after the fact that Marino was better than Elway. If you and some others feel otherwise that is what makes the world go round and opinions from each are just that...opinion.

Enjoy

 
Any list without Johnny Unitas is wrong
:thumbup: cheers! good posting!

I'll add Otto Graham. In the ten years he played, he took the Browns to the Championship game 10 times. Never missed a single NFL game. Won 3 NFL titles and 4 AAFC Championships.

Bart Starr - led the league in passing three times, won 5 NFL titles AND 2 SuperBowls, was SB MVP twice, 1966-67. any list WITHOUT Starr is a sham.

Unitas

Joe Montana

Tom Brady - 2 SB MVP's, twice leading his team to victory on the last drive.
Re Otto Graham: I have him top 10, but I leave him out of the top 5 because I feel he had the biggest talent disparity between his team and his opponents, and because I feel he had the single biggest offensive innovator in NFL history coaching him. He was incredibly accurate, and a truly fantastic QB who put up absurd numbers and win totals because the system and players were decades ahead of their time. For instance, Cleveland was the first team to pass-block differently than they run-blocked. Prior to that, every team just lined an O-lineman up against a blocker and had them battle 1-on-1. Cleveland was the first team to implement a "pocket", which meant Graham had significantly more time to throw than his peers, especially since he lived in a world without a blitz (which was unecessary to beat the standard blocking of the day).Re Tom Brady: He has 2 SB MVPs... but he only deserves one of them. If 130 yards passing is an MVP-caliber performance, then I'm John Madden. That award stinks of "well... hmm... I can't think of anyone deserving, so let's just give it to the QB of the winning team".

CalBear, SSOG is destroying you in this thread right now, so I really have nothing else to add right now. SSOG has presented numerous facts to demonstrate how absurd the choice of Marino over Elway is and you continue to live in denial. Tell me, what color is the sky in your world?
In the John Elway Reality Distortion Zone, you also don't have to notice that I have never once in this thread argued that Marino should be ranked ahead of Elway. Please try to keep up.
No, but you HAVE argued that Elway is the most overrated player of all time, and since Marino is usually rated in the same neighborhood as Elway, the fact that you've made no such comments about Marino make it pretty clear where you stand on that issue.
Pro bowl starters is a poor way of looking at players unless you are comparing two players. If you have 2 pro bowlers on your line and 3 scrubs is that better than 5 good guys? Also, do you ever think that having Marino took some of his guys to the Pro Bowl? His quick release saved them MANY sacks. The Dolphins record when Marino didn't play was awful (I am not sure what Elways was)

You post the RB and D stats for Elway's teams, care to compare to Marino's?

Finally, you are incorrect about Elway being inaccurate. if you watched the NFL that was the talk/knock about him for the first half of his career. Look at his % for that time. It wasn't until he had a ultra stud RB that his % went up.

You are entitled to your opinion
I went with pro bowlers because it was the only easy way to make talent comparisons. If you want, we can go with the "Incomplete list of notable non-skill-position players:" provided by Pro-football-reference (which I think lists all players with at least 1 career pro bowl who played on any given team). According to that list, in Elway's first 12 years, he had 2 seasons with Zimmerman and 7 seasons with Keith Bishop (as well as one year with nalen, but he was on the practice sqaud). Marino had 5 seasons with Keith Sims, 5 seasons with Richmond Webb, 7 seasons with Foster, 4 seasons with Stephenson, 2 seasons with Newman, and 1 season with Keuchenberg. I agree that we won't really have any evidence to measure how bad the worst linemen on each line were, but I'm sure you'll agree that Marino's OLs were DRASTICALLY more talented than Elway's. I can only add to this with the anecdotal evidence that I always felt that Marino had all day to throw and Elway was constantly dodging rushers. I mean, that's what Elway was famous for- his ability to "sense" all those rushers that broke through so easily and somehow still dodge them.Second, I do not argue that Elway's Ds were better than Marinos. I argue that they weren't MUCH better than Marino's. People are like "Well, if only Marino had Elway's Defenses". During the first 12 years of their careers, Elway's Defenses only finished ranked, on average, something like 4 slots ahead of Marinos.

Third, I would argue that Elway's rushing game was EVERY BIT AS BAD AS MARINOS. Yes, Elway's rushing game finished ranked, on average, 16th. Yes, Marino's rushing game finished ranked, on average, 21st. HOWEVER... Marino during his first 12 seasons averaged 8.25 yards rushing. Elway during his first 12 seasons averaged 222.5 yards rushing. Subtract out both QBs' numbers, and during those 12 seasons, Elway's teams ran for a total of... 14.75 more yards per season. Yes, Elway's running game was clearly a much more credible threat than Marino's.

All of this is ignoring the impact that a mobile QB has on the rest of his offense, too. I mean, teams run better with a mobile QB, because the threat of the QB scrambling causes DEs to hesitate in pursuit, and causes LBs to freeze for a second to make sure each run is not a fake. I think a very strong case could be made that Elway's running game was WORSE than Marino's, enough worse to compensate for the fact that Marino's defense was worse than Elway's.

To address your final point... you state that Elway was considered inaccurate for his early career until he got a decent running game. I would actually contend that he was considered inaccurate for his early career until he got decent WRs and OLs. You know, the kind of players who were surrounding Marino for his first 12 years in the league?

Elway's completion percentage from '83 to '92 was, on average, 54.4%. It never once topped 60%, and only once even topped 58%. Elway's completion percentage from '93 to '98 was, on average, 60%. It topped 60% 3 times, and only once dipped below 58%. So what happened? Did he magically go from inaccurate to very accurate overnight? I find that a little bit hard to believe. Actually, there were really only two big changes between 1992 and 1993. Dan Reeves left town (and took with him the hyper-conservative scheme that Elway hated so much and always complained about), and Gary Zimmerman came to town. In other words, John Elway, this "inaccurate QB", really just had a crappy left tackle and head coach. That's not a problem Dan Marino has ever had to worry about.

SSOG, I really could pick apart your arguments because they you are being disinegnuous with your stats. For ONE example, you make it seem like Marino had TE's that were equal to S. Sharpe because they each went to 3 Pro Bowls! This is absurd.

I am content in my analysis from watching as much or more football than most (I have 4 TV's in ONE room) and looking at the stats after the fact that Marino was better than Elway. If you and some others feel otherwise that is what makes the world go round and opinions from each are just that...opinion.

Enjoy
I never claimed that Marino's TEs were equal to Shannon Sharpe. I claimed that Marino's TEs from 1983 to 1994 were as good as Elway's TEs from 1983 to 1994. It's a claim I stand by.Shannon Sharpe was drafted in 1990 as a WR. He was then forced to make the transition to WR. In 1990 and 1991, he was rubbish (7 and 22 receptions, respectively). In 1992, he broke onto the scene as a very good TE (53/640/2). It wasn't until 1993 that he really became a force at TE... which means that Elway played 2 seasons between 1983 to 1994 with a dominant TE. During that same timeframe, Marino played 8 seasons with a TE who made at least one pro bowl with the Dolphins.

Also, there's more to the TE position than just receiving. There's blocking, too, and Sharpe was an indifferent blocker until very late in his career.

Anyway, I have no problem with people having different opinions at all. I agree, if everyone had the same opinions, the world would be an awfully boring place. By the same token, what's the point of having different opinions of we aren't allowed to argue about them, afterwards? :)

Oh, and I do have a problem with people telling me that I'm blind, ignorant, or stupid for having my opinion, as Calbear did.

 
Personally I feel that Montana is by far the most overrated QB of all time. For the same reason don't think Brady is even in the top 10. The system made them look better than they are.

Brady showed last year that he wasn't as good as advertised.

 
For the sheer joy of watching...... Dan Marino

If I had to win just one game...... Joe Montana

To come back in the 4th quarter.. John Elway

To carry a team on his shoulders. Brett Favre

For a wild shootout...................... Dan Fouts

 
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Personally I feel that Montana is by far the most overrated QB of all time. For the same reason don't think Brady is even in the top 10. The system made them look better than they are.

Brady showed last year that he wasn't as good as advertised.
I don't disagree with either of your points, but I STRONGLY disagree with your final sentence. Tom Brady was truly masterful last season, and without any question or hesitation in my mind the third best QB in the league (behind Manning and Palmer).I think Brady doesn't sniff the top 10 because, as of today, he's only had two seasons where he was among the top 5 QBs in the league. If he continues playing at the level he has played at for the last two seasons for another 8 years or so, then I think he'll have a legitimate arguement as one of the top QBs of all time.

 
Personally I feel that Montana is by far the most overrated QB of all time.  For the same reason don't think Brady is even in the top 10.  The system made them look better than they are.

Brady showed last year that he wasn't as good as advertised.
I don't disagree with either of your points, but I STRONGLY disagree with your final sentence. Tom Brady was truly masterful last season, and without any question or hesitation in my mind the third best QB in the league (behind Manning and Palmer).I think Brady doesn't sniff the top 10 because, as of today, he's only had two seasons where he was among the top 5 QBs in the league. If he continues playing at the level he has played at for the last two seasons for another 8 years or so, then I think he'll have a legitimate arguement as one of the top QBs of all time.
Brady had the chance last year to shine when the team was really down. Instead of rising to the occasion, he made mistakes that many thought he won't make. A great QB rises to the occasion when the team needs him, that is what I believe the top 5 I listed did. Brady is a good QB. Great or one of the greatest, I don't believe that. He could change my mind but he has a long way to go to do that.
 
Passing numbers are not more gaudy than 10 or 20 years ago. Look it up. In 1996 Favre threw for almost 3900 yards and 39 TDs. In 1986 Marino threw for 4746 yards and 44 TDs.
Yes, they are. YOU look it up. Sure, Favre and Marino put up great numbers 10 and 20 years ago, but more QB's put up bigger yardage every year now.
You really should run a sanity-check before you attempt to make factual claims.The average team had the following passing stats:

2005: 3491 yards, 6.8 ypa, 20.125 TDs

1995: 3768 yards, 6.8 ypa, 22.1 TDs

1985: 3625 yards, 7.0 ypa, 21.4 TDs
While I find that hard to believe (since I had seen different numbers a while back), I will stand corrected if that is true. Gotta link with this info so I know you aren't making them up? That aside, I still find it funny that you are not addressing anything else in this thread. You talked #### and when called on your opinions, you are nitpicking which ones to answer. In other words, the points you know you are losing badly on, you are ignoring those, as if they never happened.

 
You really should run a sanity-check before you attempt to make factual claims.

The average team had the following passing stats:

2005: 3491 yards, 6.8 ypa, 20.125 TDs

1995: 3768 yards, 6.8 ypa, 22.1 TDs

1985: 3625 yards, 7.0 ypa, 21.4 TDs
While I find that hard to believe (since I had seen different numbers a while back), I will stand corrected if that is true. Gotta link with this info so I know you aren't making them up? That aside, I still find it funny that you are not addressing anything else in this thread. You talked #### and when called on your opinions, you are nitpicking which ones to answer. In other words, the points you know you are losing badly on, you are ignoring those, as if they never happened.
Maybe I should adopt your tactic of simply refusing to believe anything that doesn't jibe with my world-view.I got those stats from profootballreference.com. The rise in passing happened in the early 80s, well before Elway showed up.

 
1. Dan Marino

2. Johnny Unitas...the fact I have him and Marino 1 and 2 ought to tell you the type of Qbs I like.

3. John Elway

4. Brett Favre

5. Joe Montana/Tom Brady
I like the same type of QB's. They are called winners. I totally agree with your post:Marino

Johnny U

Elway

Favre

Montana and Brady tie

The only guy I might have included who you did not was Otto Graham.

 
Personally I feel that Montana is by far the most overrated QB of all time. For the same reason don't think Brady is even in the top 10. The system made them look better than they are.

Brady showed last year that he wasn't as good as advertised.
I don't disagree with either of your points, but I STRONGLY disagree with your final sentence. Tom Brady was truly masterful last season, and without any question or hesitation in my mind the third best QB in the league (behind Manning and Palmer).I think Brady doesn't sniff the top 10 because, as of today, he's only had two seasons where he was among the top 5 QBs in the league. If he continues playing at the level he has played at for the last two seasons for another 8 years or so, then I think he'll have a legitimate arguement as one of the top QBs of all time.
Brady had the chance last year to shine when the team was really down. Instead of rising to the occasion, he made mistakes that many thought he won't make. A great QB rises to the occasion when the team needs him, that is what I believe the top 5 I listed did. Brady is a good QB. Great or one of the greatest, I don't believe that. He could change my mind but he has a long way to go to do that.
I don't believe it. The guy single-handedly carries the offense for 17 games, and then you downgrade him because he has a bad game in the playoffs?Newsflash: Joe Montana lost playoff games, too. He even threw interceptions in the playoffs.

1. Dan Marino

2. Johnny Unitas...the fact I have him and Marino 1 and 2 ought to tell you the type of Qbs I like.

3. John Elway

4. Brett Favre

5. Joe Montana/Tom Brady
I like the same type of QB's. They are called winners. I totally agree with your post:Marino

Johnny U

Elway

Favre

Montana and Brady tie

The only guy I might have included who you did not was Otto Graham.
If you like winners, why do you have Marino at #1? :stirspot:

 
Montana, I can't think of anyone elses name who can be in the same post.
90+% of us aggree Montana, and maybe to a little lesser degree, Young, belong on the list...consider this, for those not fortunate enough to "see" Johnny U in his hey day:Montana--8X Pro Bowl, 40K yds, 273 passing/20 rushing TD's...7.5 career YPA

Young-----7X Pro Bowl, 33K yds, 232 passing/43 rushing TD's...8.0 career YPA

Unitas----10X Pro Bowl, 40K yds, 290 passing/13 rushing TD's...7.8 career YPA

(and a record 47 straight games w/a TD pass...THAT's consistency!)

[the West Coast offense had the completion % higher for Montana and Young (well over 60%), where Unitas threw more down field and only completed ~55% of his pases, which was near the top in that era]

I think you can make a case for about 5 more guys to fill in the other 2 slots, but in no particular order, these 3 MUST be included in some way, shape or form

 
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Kurt was one of the best QB's I've ever seen. He came out of no where to put up some of the best stats ever made... and he won a super bowl and multiple MVP awards.

His top 5 status is pretty much a lock.
Where's Mark Rypien then??!?! :ph34r:

 
Montana

Elway

Brady

Aikman

Bradshaw
I like this list. Don't get me wrong, I really disagree with it, but it's a very obvious list. I can look at this list and tell exactly what you're looking for in a QB. No confusion, no mixed messages.Good list. :thumbup:

 
Except for it ignores the most prevalent winner in the history of the NFL.

Otto Graham won more Championships than anyone else in history. Double anyone else in SoloMatisse's list!

 
2. Joe Namath
:lmao: You do realize that Namath threw 173 TDs and 220 INTs during his career, don't you?
You do realize it's not his stats that put him on anyones list don't you?
For QBs, it's either their passing stats or their winning ways. Namath really had neither. So, I can only assume it's his fashion sense that makes him so great.
 
Fouts is about as far back as I can remember and I'm a Dolphins Homer so Marino has to go #1.

Marino

Montana

Elway

Young

Fouts

 
Except for it ignores the most prevalent winner in the history of the NFL.

Otto Graham won more Championships than anyone else in history. Double anyone else in SoloMatisse's list!
I never said I *agreed* with the rankings, I just said that I liked them. Simple, uncomplicated, easy to understand.I've already said why I think Graham is overrated for his accomplishments. Playing in an offense that was further ahead of its time than any other offense in history really boosted his numbers.

 
Maybe I should adopt your tactic of simply refusing to believe anything that doesn't jibe with my world-view.
Actually, I would rather discuss the many quarterbacks listed in this thread with you, but you seem to not want to actually participate in the discussion. Why is that? I already admitted that I was probably wrong about the passing numbers of today vs. yesteryear. When are you going to admit you were wrong about a few things (read the last few pages and it is easy to figure out what)?
 
I don't believe it. The guy single-handedly carries the offense for 17 games, and then you downgrade him because he has a bad game in the playoffs?

He carried the team???? You must have watched different games then I did. Seems to me there was more then one game he made mistakes and they lost.

 
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SSOG,

I fail to see how you can dismiss anyone's performance because of their circumstance.

I could say the same thing for everyone mentioned as a possible contender for this discussion.

Take Montana out of Bill Walsh's system and take away Jerry Rice, what do you have?

To me these are equally ridiculous. You cannot dismiss someone's response to their circumstance just because you think that it may have been too favorable.

 
Montana, I can't think of anyone elses name who can be in the same post.
90+% of us aggree Montana, and maybe to a little lesser degree, Young, belong on the list...consider this, for those not fortunate enough to "see" Johnny U in his hey day:Montana--8X Pro Bowl, 40K yds, 273 passing/20 rushing TD's...7.5 career YPA

Young-----7X Pro Bowl, 33K yds, 232 passing/43 rushing TD's...8.0 career YPA

Unitas----10X Pro Bowl, 40K yds, 290 passing/13 rushing TD's...7.8 career YPA

(and a record 47 straight games w/a TD pass...THAT's consistency!)

[the West Coast offense had the completion % higher for Montana and Young (well over 60%), where Unitas threw more down field and only completed ~55% of his pases, which was near the top in that era]

I think you can make a case for about 5 more guys to fill in the other 2 slots, but in no particular order, these 3 MUST be included in some way, shape or form
90%. I think that is a lot high. Maybe on this list but I know several people who don't think Montana is a great QB, just a very good one.
 
SSOG,

I fail to see how you can dismiss anyone's performance because of their circumstance.

I could say the same thing for everyone mentioned as a possible contender for this discussion.

Take Montana out of Bill Walsh's system and take away Jerry Rice, what do you have?

To me these are equally ridiculous. You cannot dismiss someone's response to their circumstance just because you think that it may have been too favorable.
Well, I don't DISMISS his performance, I simply downgrade it. He's still easily a top-10 QB, just not a top-5 one.And yes, I agree. Take Montana out of Bill Walsh's system and take away Jerry Rice, what do you have? That's why he's not #1 on my list. Put him on any other average team, like... oh I don't know... let's say the late-80's Denver Broncos... and how many Superbowls does he even make it to? Certainly not... oh, I don't know... let's say 3.

I downgrade a QB's results when they're playing in a system that is drastically ahead of its time, because it makes their job easier. I mean, imagine if the entire Detroit Lions franchise moved to Germany and joined NFL Europe. Joey Harrington would put up OTHERWORLDLY numbers... not because he's the greatest QB in the history of the world, but because his surrounding cast and system was SO FAR ABOVE the level of his competition that it'd be impossible NOT to succeed.

This isn't meant to belittle Graham's accomplishments, which will never be equalled. It's just meant to put them into context. It's easy to accomplish a lot when you're the only QB in the entire league whose offensive line is passblocking. The system made him look better than he really was. Not that he wasn't a fantastic QB in the first place- again, I have him in my top 10- just that he wasn't as good as he looked.

Also, it bears mentioning that of that record 10 straight "championship game appearances", didn't only 4 of them come in the NFL? You know, not that there's a talent disparity between the NFL and other leagues or anything...

 
SSOG,

I fail to see how you can dismiss anyone's performance because of their circumstance.

I could say the same thing for everyone mentioned as a possible contender for this discussion.

Take Montana out of Bill Walsh's system and take away Jerry Rice, what do you have?

To me these are equally ridiculous.  You cannot dismiss someone's response to their circumstance just because you think that it may have been too favorable.
Well, I don't DISMISS his performance, I simply downgrade it. He's still easily a top-10 QB, just not a top-5 one.And yes, I agree. Take Montana out of Bill Walsh's system and take away Jerry Rice, what do you have? That's why he's not #1 on my list. Put him on any other average team, like... oh I don't know... let's say the late-80's Denver Broncos... and how many Superbowls does he even make it to? Certainly not... oh, I don't know... let's say 3.

I downgrade a QB's results when they're playing in a system that is drastically ahead of its time, because it makes their job easier. I mean, imagine if the entire Detroit Lions franchise moved to Germany and joined NFL Europe. Joey Harrington would put up OTHERWORLDLY numbers... not because he's the greatest QB in the history of the world, but because his surrounding cast and system was SO FAR ABOVE the level of his competition that it'd be impossible NOT to succeed.

This isn't meant to belittle Graham's accomplishments, which will never be equalled. It's just meant to put them into context. It's easy to accomplish a lot when you're the only QB in the entire league whose offensive line is passblocking. The system made him look better than he really was. Not that he wasn't a fantastic QB in the first place- again, I have him in my top 10- just that he wasn't as good as he looked.

Also, it bears mentioning that of that record 10 straight "championship game appearances", didn't only 4 of them come in the NFL? You know, not that there's a talent disparity between the NFL and other leagues or anything...
This is the exact reason why Montana is overrated in my book. He fit into the system and played well. I believe most any talented QB put in his position would excel. But put him in another system not exactly suited to his talents and he would not excel. That is why I would put Marino and Elway in the top 5. They would excel in any system. IMHO
 
Montana

Elway

Brady

Marino

Jonny U

Farve close for #5

 
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Montana

Elway

Brady

Aikman

Bradshaw
I like this list. Don't get me wrong, I really disagree with it, but it's a very obvious list. I can look at this list and tell exactly what you're looking for in a QB. No confusion, no mixed messages.Good list. :thumbup:
appreciate the feedback, SSOG. Right, clearly these are guys with alot of rings that were about winning. Elway would probably have had more rings at any other period in history than that particular era when the NFC flat out dominated the league. To briefly comment about Otto Graham and others that I didnt happen to mention, Id only add that I didnt actually see Unitas or Starr or Graham or Baugh play or I may have considered them. Their accomplishments speak for themselves. If Id rank the top 5 all time of guys I never saw play, they definitely make the list....and Bobby Layne or Fran Tarkenton might be the 5th , I dunno.

By the way, did any of you guys ever see Otto Graham play?? Id be tremendously impressed with that.

 

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