Any list without Johnny Unitas is wrong
cheers! good posting!
I'll add Otto Graham. In the ten years he played, he took the Browns to the Championship game 10 times. Never missed a single NFL game. Won 3 NFL titles and 4 AAFC Championships.
Bart Starr - led the league in passing three times, won 5 NFL titles AND 2 SuperBowls, was SB MVP twice, 1966-67. any list WITHOUT Starr is a sham.
Unitas
Joe Montana
Tom Brady - 2 SB MVP's, twice leading his team to victory on the last drive.
Re Otto Graham: I have him top 10, but I leave him out of the top 5 because I feel he had the biggest talent disparity between his team and his opponents, and because I feel he had the single biggest offensive innovator in NFL history coaching him. He was incredibly accurate, and a truly fantastic QB who put up absurd numbers and win totals because the system and players were decades ahead of their time. For instance, Cleveland was the first team to pass-block differently than they run-blocked. Prior to that, every team just lined an O-lineman up against a blocker and had them battle 1-on-1. Cleveland was the first team to implement a "pocket", which meant Graham had significantly more time to throw than his peers, especially since he lived in a world without a blitz (which was unecessary to beat the standard blocking of the day).Re Tom Brady: He has 2 SB MVPs... but he only deserves one of them. If 130 yards passing is an MVP-caliber performance, then I'm John Madden. That award stinks of "well... hmm... I can't think of anyone deserving, so let's just give it to the QB of the winning team".
CalBear, SSOG is destroying you in this thread right now, so I really have nothing else to add right now. SSOG has presented numerous facts to demonstrate how absurd the choice of Marino over Elway is and you continue to live in denial. Tell me, what color is the sky in your world?
In the John Elway Reality Distortion Zone, you also don't have to notice that I have
never once in this thread argued that Marino should be ranked ahead of Elway. Please try to keep up.
No, but you HAVE argued that Elway is the most overrated player of all time, and since Marino is usually rated in the same neighborhood as Elway, the fact that you've made no such comments about Marino make it pretty clear where you stand on that issue.
Pro bowl starters is a poor way of looking at players unless you are comparing two players. If you have 2 pro bowlers on your line and 3 scrubs is that better than 5 good guys? Also, do you ever think that having Marino took some of his guys to the Pro Bowl? His quick release saved them MANY sacks. The Dolphins record when Marino didn't play was awful (I am not sure what Elways was)
You post the RB and D stats for Elway's teams, care to compare to Marino's?
Finally, you are incorrect about Elway being inaccurate. if you watched the NFL that was the talk/knock about him for the first half of his career. Look at his % for that time. It wasn't until he had a ultra stud RB that his % went up.
You are entitled to your opinion
I went with pro bowlers because it was the only easy way to make talent comparisons. If you want, we can go with the "Incomplete list of notable non-skill-position players:" provided by Pro-football-reference (which I think lists all players with at least 1 career pro bowl who played on any given team). According to that list, in Elway's first 12 years, he had 2 seasons with Zimmerman and 7 seasons with Keith Bishop (as well as one year with nalen, but he was on the practice sqaud). Marino had 5 seasons with Keith Sims, 5 seasons with Richmond Webb, 7 seasons with Foster, 4 seasons with Stephenson, 2 seasons with Newman, and 1 season with Keuchenberg. I agree that we won't really have any evidence to measure how bad the worst linemen on each line were, but I'm sure you'll agree that Marino's OLs were DRASTICALLY more talented than Elway's. I can only add to this with the anecdotal evidence that I always felt that Marino had all day to throw and Elway was constantly dodging rushers. I mean, that's what Elway was famous for- his ability to "sense" all those rushers that broke through so easily and somehow still dodge them.Second, I do not argue that Elway's Ds were better than Marinos. I argue that they weren't MUCH better than Marino's. People are like "Well, if only Marino had Elway's Defenses". During the first 12 years of their careers, Elway's Defenses only finished ranked, on average, something like 4 slots ahead of Marinos.
Third, I would argue that Elway's rushing game was EVERY BIT AS BAD AS MARINOS. Yes, Elway's rushing game finished ranked, on average, 16th. Yes, Marino's rushing game finished ranked, on average, 21st. HOWEVER... Marino during his first 12 seasons averaged 8.25 yards rushing. Elway during his first 12 seasons averaged 222.5 yards rushing. Subtract out both QBs' numbers, and during those 12 seasons, Elway's teams ran for a total of... 14.75 more yards per season. Yes, Elway's running game was clearly a much more credible threat than Marino's.
All of this is ignoring the impact that a mobile QB has on the rest of his offense, too. I mean, teams run better with a mobile QB, because the threat of the QB scrambling causes DEs to hesitate in pursuit, and causes LBs to freeze for a second to make sure each run is not a fake. I think a very strong case could be made that Elway's running game was WORSE than Marino's, enough worse to compensate for the fact that Marino's defense was worse than Elway's.
To address your final point... you state that Elway was considered inaccurate for his early career until he got a decent running game. I would actually contend that he was considered inaccurate for his early career until he got decent WRs and OLs. You know, the kind of players who were surrounding Marino for his first 12 years in the league?
Elway's completion percentage from '83 to '92 was, on average, 54.4%. It never once topped 60%, and only once even topped 58%. Elway's completion percentage from '93 to '98 was, on average, 60%. It topped 60% 3 times, and only once dipped below 58%. So what happened? Did he magically go from inaccurate to very accurate overnight? I find that a little bit hard to believe. Actually, there were really only two big changes between 1992 and 1993. Dan Reeves left town (and took with him the hyper-conservative scheme that Elway hated so much and always complained about), and Gary Zimmerman came to town. In other words, John Elway, this "inaccurate QB", really just had a crappy left tackle and head coach. That's not a problem Dan Marino has ever had to worry about.
SSOG, I really could pick apart your arguments because they you are being disinegnuous with your stats. For ONE example, you make it seem like Marino had TE's that were equal to S. Sharpe because they each went to 3 Pro Bowls! This is absurd.
I am content in my analysis from watching as much or more football than most (I have 4 TV's in ONE room) and looking at the stats after the fact that Marino was better than Elway. If you and some others feel otherwise that is what makes the world go round and opinions from each are just that...opinion.
Enjoy
I never claimed that Marino's TEs were equal to Shannon Sharpe. I claimed that Marino's TEs from 1983 to 1994 were as good as Elway's TEs from 1983 to 1994. It's a claim I stand by.Shannon Sharpe was drafted in 1990 as a WR. He was then forced to make the transition to WR. In 1990 and 1991, he was rubbish (7 and 22 receptions, respectively). In 1992, he broke onto the scene as a very good TE (53/640/2). It wasn't until 1993 that he really became a force at TE... which means that Elway played 2 seasons between 1983 to 1994 with a dominant TE. During that same timeframe, Marino played 8 seasons with a TE who made at least one pro bowl with the Dolphins.
Also, there's more to the TE position than just receiving. There's blocking, too, and Sharpe was an indifferent blocker until very late in his career.
Anyway, I have no problem with people having different opinions at all. I agree, if everyone had the same opinions, the world would be an awfully boring place. By the same token, what's the point of having different opinions of we aren't allowed to argue about them, afterwards?
Oh, and I do have a problem with people telling me that I'm blind, ignorant, or stupid for having my opinion, as Calbear did.
How can you criticize Elway for not having great numbers in the Super Bowl, while putting Marino and Manning up there?
