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*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (2 Viewers)

Juxtatarot said:
Cliff Clavin said:
DrJ said:
Cliff Clavin said:
Mile High said:
DrJ said:
Kev4029 said:
DrJ said:
I don't think that's what anyone is suggesting - in fact I don't even think that's what this article is suggesting. He intentionally left out lottery picks on their first contract and things because that's "too easy". This is more of a best of the rest type of deal - scrappers that make less money than their play would suggest they should and guys that have a chance to develop into something but were low picks still playing on their first contract. It doesn't place him above 400 other assets or anything of that nature. Let's say we put Harris in the draft for this upcoming year, where does he go? He'd be a lottery pick I would imagine. A late lottery pick that makes less than other late lottery picks is worth more than they are. I'm not quite getting what the big debate is about here.
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You mean other than his mentions of MKG, Klay Thompson, Andre Drummond, Jonas V, Kanter, Favors, Cousins, Hayward, plus the other guys that he'll put in his top 40 or whatever (Irving, Wall, Davis, etc). You're right, he would be a lottery pick this year, probably somewhere around the 10-12 range. Kinda proves my point. An extra million or two in salary over a couple years changes nobody's trade value.
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding his column - he did format this incredibly poorly. Still, it seems to me that any guy that would be a lottery pick tomorrow and actually makes less than one probably holds some decent value. Those are the types of players/contracts that any rebuilding team should love to have.
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Still not sure what is column is about. He has him him lower then Faried for no other reason is he doesn't think should be compared to a a young Dennis Rodman?
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Yeah, I don't think there is any team that trades players 43-50 for Harris while Orlando probably does; especially Faried, Kanter, Valanciunas and Drummond (ignoring that they have Vucevic and redundancy . The other guys (Thompson, Vasquez, Butler, Parsons) are just young, league average players with potential upside but will likely never be more than league average.
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To me it looks like there's some chance Butler could develop into a poor man's Scottie Pippen. That's where the value of these sorts of guys comes in.
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I'd be quite confident in saying he'll develop into a good role player but doubtful of much more. And yes, there is value in a good role player but that value isn't one of the top 50 assets in the league, regardless of salary. Right now, he brings exactly what Matt Barnes does. Barnes is cheaper and has a ton of experience. All Butler has on him is youth.
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Butler shot 3s better this year than any of Barnes' seasons. He gets to the line more frequently. His free throw percentage was better than any of Barnes' years. He's a better defender. His game still is developing while Barnes' isn't. Exactly what holes do you see in Butler's game? And about salary, Butler only makes $3M over the next two years.
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When you look at TS% and eFG% they are essentially the same (Butler better TS%, Barnes better eFG%). Barnes has him in rebound rate, assist %, steal % and block %. Barnes is also ahead of him in Defensive Win Shares. There is very little difference in every category. I never said Butler has holes in his games. Just saying that he is an average SF, like Barnes. He may, and probably will, get better but by how much? Does he ever become a top 10 SF? If not, then how is he considered a top 50 asset? If you believe he will get into that range, then it is warranted. Personally, I don't. I've probably seen about 6-7 of his games and he seems like a solid, unspectacular player. Solid, unspectacular wings are a dime a dozen. When it comes to contracts, Barnes isn't getting more than $2-3M deal next year so it is essentially a wash in that category. So once again, the only advantage is youth.

 
36 and 6 for Melo. 1-0 Knicks.

Jason Kidd running the show for NY on both offense and defense. Can't overlook how big he could be in the playoffs for the Knicks.

 
Cliff Clavin said:
When you look at TS% and eFG% they are essentially the same (Butler better TS%, Barnes better eFG%). Barnes has him in rebound rate, assist %, steal % and block %. Barnes is also ahead of him in Defensive Win Shares. There is very little difference in every category. I never said Butler has holes in his games. Just saying that he is an average SF, like Barnes. He may, and probably will, get better but by how much? Does he ever become a top 10 SF? If not, then how is he considered a top 50 asset? If you believe he will get into that range, then it is warranted. Personally, I don't. I've probably seen about 6-7 of his games and he seems like a solid, unspectacular player. Solid, unspectacular wings are a dime a dozen. When it comes to contracts, Barnes isn't getting more than $2-3M deal next year so it is essentially a wash in that category. So once again, the only advantage is youth.
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His WS/48 is higher than Barnes has had at any point in his career and PER is at a level that it took Barnes about a decade to reach. I see lockdown defender that can chip in 15-18 a game with 6-7 boards in Butler's future personally. They routinely put him on the other team's best scorer and he does well there. That probably puts him in the top 10 SF's.

This obviously isn't a lock, but he's played at this level for stretches already. Just the fact that it's reasonably possible makes him a ton more valuable than a guy like Barnes.

 
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DrJ said:
Cliff Clavin said:
When you look at TS% and eFG% they are essentially the same (Butler better TS%, Barnes better eFG%). Barnes has him in rebound rate, assist %, steal % and block %. Barnes is also ahead of him in Defensive Win Shares. There is very little difference in every category. I never said Butler has holes in his games. Just saying that he is an average SF, like Barnes. He may, and probably will, get better but by how much? Does he ever become a top 10 SF? If not, then how is he considered a top 50 asset? If you believe he will get into that range, then it is warranted. Personally, I don't. I've probably seen about 6-7 of his games and he seems like a solid, unspectacular player. Solid, unspectacular wings are a dime a dozen. When it comes to contracts, Barnes isn't getting more than $2-3M deal next year so it is essentially a wash in that category. So once again, the only advantage is youth.
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His WS/48 is higher than Barnes has had at any point in his career and PER is at a level that it took Barnes about a decade to reach. I see lockdown defender that can chip in 15-18 a game with 6-7 boards in Butler's future personally. They routinely put him on the other team's best scorer and he does well there. That probably puts him in the top 10 SF's.

This obviously isn't a lock, but he's played at this level for stretches already. Just the fact that it's reasonably possible makes him a ton more valuable than a guy like Barnes.
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Looks like he's actually averaging 15.5 pts, 8.3 rebounds, and 2.8 assists when starting already. Gets to the line at one of the highest rates in the league. Despite what defensive win shares cites, the statistics I've seen (and the eye test when he's playing) show that the Bulls D is clearly better when he's on the court and that he's one of the better defenders in the league. Very athletic, he's super cut with a 40" vert. It seems like he's one of those guys that the statistics tend to under rate.http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1585142-building-the-case-for-jimmy-butler-to-be-chicago-bulls-starting-shooting-guard

 
DrJ said:
DrJ said:
Cliff Clavin said:
When you look at TS% and eFG% they are essentially the same (Butler better TS%, Barnes better eFG%). Barnes has him in rebound rate, assist %, steal % and block %. Barnes is also ahead of him in Defensive Win Shares. There is very little difference in every category. I never said Butler has holes in his games. Just saying that he is an average SF, like Barnes. He may, and probably will, get better but by how much? Does he ever become a top 10 SF? If not, then how is he considered a top 50 asset? If you believe he will get into that range, then it is warranted. Personally, I don't. I've probably seen about 6-7 of his games and he seems like a solid, unspectacular player. Solid, unspectacular wings are a dime a dozen. When it comes to contracts, Barnes isn't getting more than $2-3M deal next year so it is essentially a wash in that category. So once again, the only advantage is youth.
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His WS/48 is higher than Barnes has had at any point in his career and PER is at a level that it took Barnes about a decade to reach. I see lockdown defender that can chip in 15-18 a game with 6-7 boards in Butler's future personally. They routinely put him on the other team's best scorer and he does well there. That probably puts him in the top 10 SF's.

This obviously isn't a lock, but he's played at this level for stretches already. Just the fact that it's reasonably possible makes him a ton more valuable than a guy like Barnes.
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Looks like he's actually averaging 15.5 pts, 8.3 rebounds, and 2.8 assists when starting already. Gets to the line at one of the highest rates in the league. Despite what defensive win shares cites, the statistics I've seen (and the eye test when he's playing) show that the Bulls D is clearly better when he's on the court and that he's one of the better defenders in the league. Very athletic, he's super cut with a 40" vert. It seems like he's one of those guys that the statistics tend to under rate.http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1585142-building-the-case-for-jimmy-butler-to-be-chicago-bulls-starting-shooting-guard
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He probably was averaging those #s at time of article.I agree that Butler is one of the better on ball defenders in the league. Tremendous complimentary player. Gonna be interesting when the time comes, if he continues to improve, if they elect to resign Deng for his age 30 season and beyond. I'm not sure if they'll offer him $15+ mil/year he's gonna desire when they have Butler in the fold.

Kudos to Thibodeau giving the job to Butler and not reverting to a close to being done Richard Hamilton (who shouldn't be getting but 12-15 mins/game) and Belinelli. The guy is on a completely different planet defensively that the other 2 and no difference offensively since Butler's been promoted.

 
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I'd never thought about it and I know they've had injuries, but curry, Thompson, Barnes, lee, and bogut should be a really good team.

 
Curry and Thompson look like guys playing in their first playoff game.

Edit: had a feeling one of those would hit a big shot right after I posted that

 
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At least Golden State only has 1 more year of Andrew Bogut at 14 mil. Never understood that deal.

Even if dealing Monta, they could have done better than the damaged goods in Bogut.

 
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Craig_MiamiFL said:
Lee injury should help balance out Denver's loss of Faried. Good effort by Golden State. Didn't think they stood a shot in Denver.
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I'll be very surprised if Faried isn't back Tuesday, he was out before the game and at half time doing his usually thing, he was in the layup lines and was getting stretched dressed for the game.
 
Kev4029 said:
Craig_MiamiFL said:
Lee injury should help balance out Denver's loss of Faried. Good effort by Golden State. Didn't think they stood a shot in Denver.
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I'll be very surprised if Faried isn't back Tuesday, he was out before the game and at half time doing his usually thing, he was in the layup lines and was getting stretched dressed for the game.
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Would be huge if they have him. He'll go nuts in this series if he's healthy.

If they make to Round 2, I think they'll need more McGee stepping up IMO.

 
Great win for Denver!! My liver is going to be shot if all the games are like this. :excited: Throw in the NFL draft this week and this is going to be a bad, bad week for the beer budget.

I just hope the refs call all the games the same way. Today, IMO, Denver got some bad calls, but if they call the whole series like this and Denver adapts to the "let them play" style, this will be a good series. The problem is if the next group of refs calls every ticky tack foul, it will ruin this series.

GSW needs Lee, but I am waiting for the 45 point Curry game because you know it is coming.

 
Raider Nation said:
Why is Doris Burke breaking down transition defense on my television?I thought I tuned into the Lifetime Network by mistake.
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She's one of the best at breaking down the game IMO. I'll take her doing the color for a game anytime.
Craig_MiamiFL said:
At least Golden State only has 1 more year of Andrew Bogut at 14 mil. Never understood that deal. Even if dealing Monta, they could have done better than the damaged goods in Bogut.
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Yeah, Monta Ellis is a better player than Bogut but he has a player option to opt out at the end of the season that he'll probably exercise anyway. If GS had kept him they'd have missed out on Harrison Barnes and wouldn't have Ellis next year anyway. Plus Ellis could have hurt the development of Curry this season.It was a tank job to end last season and a way to give Curry the rock.
 
Abraham said:
Craig_MiamiFL said:
Abraham said:
New Jersey looks good. If they win they get Miami, right?
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Yep. WIth Deron Williams playing the way he has lately, Miami's biggest test in the East IMO
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I just don't like Wallace trying to guard Lebron
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No one can guard LeBron. Paul George/Deng/J.Butler are probably the best options to try to guard LeBron in East.

Indy lacks a point guard that can create easy baskets for others.They'll never keep up with Miami.

Melo ball isn't beating Miami 4 times in a series with Big 3 healthy. (The Bobcats are more likely to win a title in the next 10 years than this happening)

Barring a big 3 injury, I don't think NJ stands a chance. As opposed to no chance for the other East teams.

With the crap contracts NJ has (Wallace/Joe Johnson) + large contracts of Lopez/Williams, this is their best shot while their all in their primes.

 
Grace Under Pressure said:
Craig_MiamiFL said:
Abraham said:
New Jersey looks good. If they win they get Miami, right?
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Yep. WIth Deron Williams playing the way he has lately, Miami's biggest test in the East IMO
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The Nets looked great today. The Bulls are hurting, of course. Williams is the type of PG you'd like to challenge Miami with.
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LeBron would almost certainly end up guarding Deron. Joe Johnson/Wallace are not that dangerous and Reggie Evans doesn't need to be guarded much.
 
Raider Nation said:
Britney Spears said:
Raider Nation said:
Rose's teammates must love him. Just can't play until you are 163% though.
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Is there risk of further injury or something? It makes no sense.
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According to his doctors, no. The go-to argument of his supporters is "Well, they wouldn't beat Miami anyway"... which is total crap. Are you a competitor or not?
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When does Lebron retire? That's when Rose will be psychologically ready to return.
 
Dr. Gobbler said:
Raider Nation said:
Britney Spears said:
Raider Nation said:
Rose's teammates must love him. Just can't play until you are 163% though.
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Is there risk of further injury or something? It makes no sense.
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According to his doctors, no. The go-to argument of his supporters is "Well, they wouldn't beat Miami anyway"... which is total crap. Are you a competitor or not?
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When does Lebron retire? That's when Rose will be psychologically ready to return.
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Zactly.

I have to imagine he's lost a lot of respect from teammates and fans alike.

 
I don't mind the Clippers' and Grizzlies' bigs nullifying each other. LAC's guards and bench will keep crushing Memphis.

 
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