Shaq in his prime, easy.
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*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter Cliff Clavin
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Duncan and Pop. There's a good chance an in his prime Shaq is going to be injured when this 7 game series takes place.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I'll take Duncan and Pop by a hair over Shaq and Jackson. As awesome as Shaq was in his prime, remember that it took a miracle comeback in Game 7 of the 2000 WCF and some crooked officiating in Game 6 of the 2002 WCF for Shaq and Jackson to three-peat (and that was with an up-and-coming Kobe Bryant).
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
FYI, Kobe's the guy who never was the best in the league. Duncan is ahead of him (and bird).
Instinctive
Footballguy
I did a little research to throw some light on this "best player in the league" debate. I think I have all the years correct, but it's late so please feel free to point out an error of transcription.
1996
neither player is best in the league, Jordan/Shaq definitely better, among others
1997-98
Duncan 1st Team All NBA and 2nd Team All NBA Defense, 5th in MVP votes
Kobe nothing (including no MVP votes)
Duncan better
1998-99
Duncan 1st Team All NBA and 1st Team All NBA Defense, 3rd in MVP votes
Kobe 3rd Team All NBA (still no all defense), no MVP votes
Duncan better
1999-2000
Duncan 1st Team All NBA and 1st Team All NBA Defense, 5th in MVP votes
Kobe 2nd Team All NBA and 1st Team All NBA Defense, 12th in MVP votes
Duncan better (although this is the first time Kobe finally got an MVP vote!)
2000-01
Duncan 1st Team All NBA and 1st Team All NBA Defense, 2nd in MVP
Kobe 2nd Team All NBA and 2nd Team All NBA Defense, 9th in MVP
Duncan better
2001-02
Duncan 1st Team All NBA and 1st Team All NBA Defense, wins MVP
Kobe 1st Team All NBA and 2nd Team All NBA Defense, 5th in MVP
Duncan better (and MVP)
2002-03
Duncan 1st Team All NBA and 1st Team All NBA Defense, wins MVP
Kobe 1st Team All NBA and 1st Team All NBA Defense, 3rd in MVP
First time that Kobe matches Duncan in All NBA selections. Duncan won MVP...so Duncan better.
2003-04
Duncan 1st Team All NBA and 2nd Team All NBA Defense, 2nd in MVP
Kobe 1st Team All NBA and 1st Team All NBA Defense, 5th in MVP
Kobe finally outdoes Duncan in one category, but Duncan finished over 500 points ahead in MVP voting (and has more All NBA votes). I think Duncan keeps the title of best.
2004-05
Duncan 1st Team All NBA and 1st Team All NBA Defense, 4th in MVP
Kobe 3rd Team All NBA (doesn't make all Defense), NO MVP votes
Duncan better
2005-06
Duncan 2nd Team All NBA and 2nd Team All NBA Defense, 8th in MVP
Kobe 1st Team All NBA and 1st Team All NBA Defense, 4th in MVP
Kobe beats Duncan in both All NBA categories, and gets more MVP votes. Kobe better (first time!)
2006-07
Duncan 1st Team All NBA and 1st Team All NBA Defense, 4th in MVP
Kobe 1st Team All NBA and 1st Team All NBA Defense, 3rd in MVP
The MVP voting is close. I'll call it a wash because Duncan had more votes for both of the All NBA teams.
2007-08
LeBron is clearly the best player at this point in my opinion, but Kobe does win MVP so the argument is there that he's the best this year and LeBron is not until next year. Also the first year Duncan is not All NBA Defense.
Summary:
Duncan - More 1st team All NBA (and more any team All NBA), more All NBA Defense (and more 1st team), more MVPs
Kobe - Umm...less of everything except that each of them has 4 titles. Of course, Kobe was only the best player on his own team for one of his, Duncan was for at least 3, arguably all 4 of his.
I think that an argument could be made that Kobe is the best player in the NBA in 2005-06, and 2007-08. I would disagree, but it is at least reasonable. In every year of his career up to that point though, at least Tim Duncan (and often other players like Steve Nash) is clearly regarded as better by voters for all major NBA awards.
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
My initial reaction was Shaq/Jackson, just because it's Shaq and there's no need to think too hard about this.
But then I decided to think too hard about it anyway. I don't know how the rest of my team is going to be assembled in this hypothetical. And given that uncertainty, I think I might be a little safer with Duncan's versatility and Pop's Xs and Os.
Shaq v Duncan really tough to call. Peak Shaq (99-00) over peak Duncan easy choice. But gun to my head you get the best 10 years out of either one I would likely lean Duncan.
Will say that going over the rings and finals mvp Lebron better cash in here. His resume will look puny given the era. Don't want to hear about MVP's when Nash has as many as Shaq and Kobe combined. Lebron has to win or he is not in the discussion for a long time.
Will say that going over the rings and finals mvp Lebron better cash in here. His resume will look puny given the era. Don't want to hear about MVP's when Nash has as many as Shaq and Kobe combined. Lebron has to win or he is not in the discussion for a long time.
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Why isn't Sihugo Green a Wally Pip or Sam Bowie? Drafted first before Russell.
Bill Russell wins back to back NCAA titles then 11 rings.
The back to back NCAA rings really make you marvel at Russell. 6'10/215lbs and you would think he wouldn't dominate in the current game. But whose to say with the nutrition/training Shaq received he wouldn't be 7'1 and wider and an utterly devastating rebounder/shot-blocker/passer/competitor.
Never seen anyone compare to Jordan. Hard to imagine anyone reaching that status. Some guys are just unicorns Yet Russell had back-to-back NCAA titles and 11 rings with Wilt in the league the whole time. Russell may be the most underrated athlete ever.
Bill Russell wins back to back NCAA titles then 11 rings.
The back to back NCAA rings really make you marvel at Russell. 6'10/215lbs and you would think he wouldn't dominate in the current game. But whose to say with the nutrition/training Shaq received he wouldn't be 7'1 and wider and an utterly devastating rebounder/shot-blocker/passer/competitor.
Never seen anyone compare to Jordan. Hard to imagine anyone reaching that status. Some guys are just unicorns Yet Russell had back-to-back NCAA titles and 11 rings with Wilt in the league the whole time. Russell may be the most underrated athlete ever.
Short Corner
Footballguy
That 2002 kings team was awesome though. I've never seen guys more helpless against a player than they were against Shaquille in his prime. The only hope was to get him in foul trouble. There was a 2-3 year stretch there where Shaq was as good or better than anyone who ever played the game.
Mr Non Sequitur
Footballguy
Finals in the 90s with Orlando, '00, '01, '02, '04, '06, his prime was a lot more than 2-3 seasons IMO.
Kev4029
Footballguy
I'm not sure this whole exercise is the best way to compare them, but to be fair to Kobe, he does have 5 titles, not 4.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Yeah, I think Tim's wrong on this one. If Paul and Howard wanted this to happen strongly enough, it would.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
When I said this, I did not imply that Shaq's prime was only for those three years, only to point out that he managed only three titles during it*, and that two of them needed a miracle comeback and some crooked officiating to happen.
*I think he was a bit past his prime when he won his 4th title with Miami.
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Instinctive
Footballguy
Yes, but not in the time-frame we were comparing them. I thought that since LeBron pretty convincingly takes the title from whoever owns it before Kobe wins number 5 that it doesn't really have a place in a discussion of
"what was best in the nba" before it became LeBron.
Instinctive
Footballguy
I wasn't alive (duh) but surely someone who knows the history a little better can help out here: Didn't Russell play in a league with only like 9 teams? I feel like the massive difference in levels of competition today and back then should count for something.
I'd say Shaq's prime was limited to the years during the 3 peat, with his absolute best being in the 99-00 season. His defense during those seasons was dominating, but it was not on the same level the rest of his career.
That's not to say he was a slouch during his other seasons, because even discounting his best, he is still a top 10 player of all time. But his prime itself stands up to that of any other player in NBA history, including Jordan.
Abraham
Footballguy
I know the lakers don't have money trouble, but if Kobe really and on playing two more years, his contact and Nash really hamstring their ability to get better if Howard resigns. I expect them to play hardball on a Howard sign and trade and come out smelling like roses. I absolutely could see Houston giving up Asik and chandler to take on Howard AND gasol. I could see them sending off some of the young forward talent (Robinson and jones, whatever) and rolling in to next season with Lin. Harden, Garcia/delfino, gasol, Howard starting. Morey has long loved gasol and while giving up parsons to get him would suck, I think it would be okay in the long run.
Short Corner
Footballguy
So you think if they shrank the league down to 9 teams today the competition would be stronger or softer?
Kev4029
Footballguy
Really? Your argument is going to be that it was harder to win championships with 9 teams (actually it was 8 teams when he was drafted, 14 when he retired) in the league as opposed to now? And there is way more talent on a team now, even with 30 teams, than there was win Russell was in the NBA. Look at this team photo of the Royals in 56-57 or this in game photo of the Knicks and Lakers and tell me that there was better competition back then.
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PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
Sounding more and more like Noel will not be the #1 pick.
Short Corner
Footballguy
Abraham
Footballguy
Maybe a situation where Cleveland lets the clock expire and let's someone else have the first pick.
Premier
Footballguy
Yea, kind of surprising. I really hope the Magic pass at #2.
sporthenry
Footballguy
at the mental gymnastics required to get Kobe down to 4 titles.
Britney Spears
guest speaker
Everybody besides Wade of course. He's becoming more and more of a baby as time goes on.
Problem he missed a giant number of games over half of that decade. Outside of his first 3 years where he was overshadowed by guys like Robinson and Olajuwan he only came close to a full season once. If I can guarantee that Oneal is healthy in this series, I go with him. But I can't count on that with my life depending on this.
Instinctive
Footballguy
Look. I specifically looked at the instance of where we're calling someone "best player in the league" in a given year. I know you love to try and rub this type of thing in someone's face, but you can even look at the timeline I posted - where every year is listed with All NBA awards, All NBA Defense, MVPs, and then I summarized the titles in those given years at the bottom.If you're going to be better and smarter than 99% of the people you encounter con a daily basis, sometimes to have to work real hard to avoid admitting to a mistake. Some will say acknowledging errors and learning from them is a sign of maturity and growth, but that #### is for sucker MCs. Real ballers deny and shift blame to keep the blood off their hands.
If you want to classify it as a mistake you're totally within your rights to do so. But if I messed up the championships, then I also messed up the All NBA selections for both guys, the MVP voting every year for both guys, and the All NBA Defense selections for both guys. You're right - I'm dumb.
ETA: I think the mistake may be in my syntax - I wasn't looking at who had the better career. I don't think I indicated that I was anywhere in the post we refer to, but given that career legacy is the typical conversation we have here, I see where someone could assume that without reading, and make a mistake.
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It's also worth noting that the center position was gigantically weak during the years he was most dominant. I played fantasy basketball one of those years, and despite the fact that he missed half the season he was probably still the number one scorer at the center position. It was Shaq......................next guy. Had he come into the league in the mid 80's rather than early 90's people might look at him quite a bit different and put him in the David Robinson tier.People complain that a lot of these earlier all time greats faced a bunch of white dudes in tight shorts, that was basically what Shaq did during these years. He was a physical monster facing a bunch of 7 foot tall, slow white dudes.
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Instinctive
Footballguy
You're really going to pretend to be obtuse enough not to know that your question would lead to the inference that you're saying a 9 team league today would have stronger competition? It's clearly implied, and I think Kev is spot on in his response.
Instinctive
Footballguy
The way I worded 2008 is definitely confusing. Kobe wins the 4th title that year, but because I believe that's the same time LeBron took over as best player, I didn't count it in my calcs. That probably appears disingenuous now, but it was not intended that way. THAT is definitely my mistake.The seasons you listed were from 1996 to 2008. How many titles did Kobe Bryant win during those seasons?Look. I specifically looked at the instance of where we're calling someone "best player in the league" in a given year. I know you love to try and rub this type of thing in someone's face, but you can even look at the timeline I posted - where every year is listed with All NBA awards, All NBA Defense, MVPs, and then I summarized the titles in those given years at the bottom.If you're going to be better and smarter than 99% of the people you encounter con a daily basis, sometimes to have to work real hard to avoid admitting to a mistake. Some will say acknowledging errors and learning from them is a sign of maturity and growth, but that #### is for sucker MCs. Real ballers deny and shift blame to keep the blood off their hands.
If you want to classify it as a mistake you're totally within your rights to do so. But if I messed up the championships, then I also messed up the All NBA selections for both guys, the MVP voting every year for both guys, and the All NBA Defense selections for both guys. You're right - I'm dumb.
ETA: I think the mistake may be in my syntax - I wasn't looking at who had the better career. I don't think I indicated that I was anywhere in the post we refer to, but given that career legacy is the typical conversation we have here, I see where someone could assume that without reading, and make a mistake.
I read your timeline. It wasn't bad. Though neither were under consideration for best player in the league before 2002 when Duncan won his first MVP (and I go along with the consensus that Shaq was still the better player that season), I thought going back that far was illustrative because it showed Duncan was an elite player right away, while Kobe took a few seasons before he started receiving serious accolades.
I don't think you're dumb. I think you're very bright.
I totally agree that Shaq was better as well - I just thought it would be easiest to show that Kobe wasn't by simply comparing him to Duncan, who looks to be better every single year from the time he entered the league until 2008, although it is absolutely possible to say that Kobe's 2005-06 year he claimed the title of best player, only to lose it right away.
ETA: If anyone cares, I also did a very quick scan of PER, eFG%, TS%, and WinShares/48
Duncan has more WinShares/48 and a higher PER in what looks like every single year from the time he entered the league until 08, with the exception of that 2005-06 year where Kobe outperforms him.
Duncan has a higher eFG% every single year, at a glance.
The TS% is very close every year, Duncan wins most but Kobe does outperform him in a few seasons.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Bryant didn't win his 4th title until 2009, so how could he win his 5th in 2008?? 
Also, it doesn't help Bryant's case that the only time he was really the best player in the league (2005-2006) were years where his team didn't do so well. Contrast that to guys like Magic, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan and James, all of whom saw great team success (see: championships) during seasons where they were unquestionably the best player in the league.
In a sense, Bryant is like Drew Brees: a top 3-5 player for most of his career, but, aside for maybe a very short stretch, never really THE best player in the league.
Also, it doesn't help Bryant's case that the only time he was really the best player in the league (2005-2006) were years where his team didn't do so well. Contrast that to guys like Magic, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan and James, all of whom saw great team success (see: championships) during seasons where they were unquestionably the best player in the league.
In a sense, Bryant is like Drew Brees: a top 3-5 player for most of his career, but, aside for maybe a very short stretch, never really THE best player in the league.
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The way I worded 2008 is definitely confusing. Kobe wins the 5th title that year, but because I believe that's the same time LeBron took over as best player, I didn't count it in my calcs. That probably appears disingenuous now, but it was not intended that way. THAT is definitely my mistake. I totally agree that Shaq was better as well - I just thought it would be easiest to show that Kobe wasn't by simply comparing him to Duncan, who looks to be better every single year from the time he entered the league until 2008, although it is absolutely possible to say that Kobe's 2005-06 year he claimed the title of best player, only to lose it right away.The seasons you listed were from 1996 to 2008. How many titles did Kobe Bryant win during those seasons? I read your timeline. It wasn't bad. Though neither were under consideration for best player in the league before 2002 when Duncan won his first MVP (and I go along with the consensus that Shaq was still the better player that season), I thought going back that far was illustrative because it showed Duncan was an elite player right away, while Kobe took a few seasons before he started receiving serious accolades. I don't think you're dumb. I think you're very bright.Look. I specifically looked at the instance of where we're calling someone "best player in the league" in a given year. I know you love to try and rub this type of thing in someone's face, but you can even look at the timeline I posted - where every year is listed with All NBA awards, All NBA Defense, MVPs, and then I summarized the titles in those given years at the bottom. If you want to classify it as a mistake you're totally within your rights to do so. But if I messed up the championships, then I also messed up the All NBA selections for both guys, the MVP voting every year for both guys, and the All NBA Defense selections for both guys. You're right - I'm dumb.If you're going to be better and smarter than 99% of the people you encounter con a daily basis, sometimes to have to work real hard to avoid admitting to a mistake. Some will say acknowledging errors and learning from them is a sign of maturity and growth, but that #### is for sucker MCs. Real ballers deny and shift blame to keep the blood off their hands.
There was a point in there where Garnett was the best player in the league IMO. If we're using Tim standard where titles aren't all that important, he gets ripped off in these discussions. I'd personally take Garnett's peak over Kobe's, though Kobe's longevity makes the decision on overall career tougher.The way I worded 2008 is definitely confusing. Kobe wins the 5th title that year, but because I believe that's the same time LeBron took over as best player, I didn't count it in my calcs. That probably appears disingenuous now, but it was not intended that way. THAT is definitely my mistake. I totally agree that Shaq was better as well - I just thought it would be easiest to show that Kobe wasn't by simply comparing him to Duncan, who looks to be better every single year from the time he entered the league until 2008, although it is absolutely possible to say that Kobe's 2005-06 year he claimed the title of best player, only to lose it right away.The seasons you listed were from 1996 to 2008. How many titles did Kobe Bryant win during those seasons? I read your timeline. It wasn't bad. Though neither were under consideration for best player in the league before 2002 when Duncan won his first MVP (and I go along with the consensus that Shaq was still the better player that season), I thought going back that far was illustrative because it showed Duncan was an elite player right away, while Kobe took a few seasons before he started receiving serious accolades. I don't think you're dumb. I think you're very bright.Look. I specifically looked at the instance of where we're calling someone "best player in the league" in a given year. I know you love to try and rub this type of thing in someone's face, but you can even look at the timeline I posted - where every year is listed with All NBA awards, All NBA Defense, MVPs, and then I summarized the titles in those given years at the bottom. If you want to classify it as a mistake you're totally within your rights to do so. But if I messed up the championships, then I also messed up the All NBA selections for both guys, the MVP voting every year for both guys, and the All NBA Defense selections for both guys. You're right - I'm dumb.If you're going to be better and smarter than 99% of the people you encounter con a daily basis, sometimes to have to work real hard to avoid admitting to a mistake. Some will say acknowledging errors and learning from them is a sign of maturity and growth, but that #### is for sucker MCs. Real ballers deny and shift blame to keep the blood off their hands.
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Instinctive
Footballguy
Typo. My bad. I'm confusing myself at this point. I'll let the timeline sit up there with the stats and just leave things alone at this point. I think I've added all I can to the discussion.Ghost Rider said:Bryant didn't win his 4th title until 2009, so how could he win his 5th in 2008??
sporthenry
Footballguy
Comparing EFG% and TS% with guards and big men won't turn out well. Heck, Shaq beats Duncan just about every year comparing the two stats.
That is what is amazing about LeBron. His efficiency as shown by his EFG% and TS% is spectacular for whatever you want to call him (guard, wing, point-forward, etc). For a guy who doesn't live on the block or on the 3 point line to put those numbers up is remarkable.
But I digress, the argument about best player passing it off seems silly especially since between MJ and LeBron, multiple guys have probably laid claim to the title.
That is what is amazing about LeBron. His efficiency as shown by his EFG% and TS% is spectacular for whatever you want to call him (guard, wing, point-forward, etc). For a guy who doesn't live on the block or on the 3 point line to put those numbers up is remarkable.
But I digress, the argument about best player passing it off seems silly especially since between MJ and LeBron, multiple guys have probably laid claim to the title.
Short Corner
Footballguy
No problem with this. You are spot on. You may want to re-read his response though as he is clearly assigning a position to me which I did not take. Reading is fundamental.Instinctive said:
The only thing that diminishes this a bit to me is how low volume of a shooter he is. While it doesn't show up as readily on a stat sheet, MJ was creating a ton for his teammates by attacking as relentlessly as he did even if he tended to take shots with a higher degree of difficulty.
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Short Corner
Footballguy
Indeed. Tons of people have taken things from his game. Lebron's defensive freelancing is very reminiscent of the Jordan/Pippen Doberman defense. This is probably where Kobe falls most short of Jordan, and part of what makes his FG% suffer in comparison. Those Bulls teams got so many points off of turnovers and in transition, it was pretty amazing.
Compared to a guy like Jordan it does. Lebron has transcended to the point where comparing him to current league stats isn't very much fun. We all know he's #1 today. The bigger question is where does that rank historically.I've been on the Lebron side of the Kobe vs Lebron debate. But there is some merit to the "Kobe assist". Kobe falling so short in other areas is what most eliminates him from the discussion.
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Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Kobe's best WS/48 was in 06. His .224 that year would rank as Duncan's 5th best. And really, the only reason Kobe's PER was so high in 06 was because he set the single season record for chucking usage.Instinctive said:
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
sporthenry
Footballguy
ESPN article said they want to keep Bledsoe then do a sign and trade with Bledsoe/Griffin for Howard.
Starting 5 of Paul, Pierce, KG and Howard looks pretty good.
Also mentioned Bledsoe in a sign and trade for Afflalo.
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
Clipper need to find a way to keep Bledsoe out of the Boston deal and turn him into something in a deal elsewhere.
The Clippers aren't a 37 year old Kevin Garnett and 36 year old Paul Pierce away from a championship. JMO Both need to take steep pay cuts to make it worth it.
The Clippers aren't a 37 year old Kevin Garnett and 36 year old Paul Pierce away from a championship. JMO Both need to take steep pay cuts to make it worth it.
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Juxtatarot
Footballguy
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