*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (3 Viewers)

[ffldrew]

Agree wih most of the article, though even as a crazy liberal I have a had time blaming guys who decide to take the extra 50M.

What do NBA players actually get on the dollar? It's reported as "150m in career earnings"' but after agent cuts, taxes etc, isn't it more like half that? And unlike the wealthy in other walks of life, these guys don't come from money, so they are also footing the bill for their parents, sisters, brothers, cousins, and friends.

Obviously still an obscene amount of money, but not anywhere near the numbers Simmons and co. Use for shock value in their columns.

Yeah, I don't really remember the Denver situation. Did he really force himself out for the extra money? I thought Denver wanted to trade him to get something for him. Couldn't he just do a S&T at the end of the year and get the same contract?

Also, Melo "only" makes $8-10 million in endorsements. Compare that to LeBron at 42, Kobe at 34 or Rose at 21. Doesn't seem like the big city helped him that much with respect to endorsements.

But I think the biggest aspect that Simmons didn't touch upon was how important family and other life considerations has played in this offseason. Melo did take the most money as well but him and LeBron seemed to stress keeping their kids and wives happy.

He demanded the trade out of Denver. Had he waited till summer and signed somewhere else he would have lost money.

His wife demanded that trade.

Simmons article has one glaring point(besides claiming that George Karl never coached in a Finals) - and it is brought up in comparison to Dirk's Mavs(a team Melo beat in Denver) - and that is the need for "savvy team defense" which is something I am convinced that Melo can not do. And because he doesn't hold himself responsible for this aspect of the game the team around him collapses. It was Chauncey who demanded that from him in the WCF run - and that shows lack of leadership. It's easy to show all these offensive stat comparisons - but you have to find those defensive stats to fully evaluate his game and if it is capable of leading to a championship. Once he left Denver a good Nuggets team was even better and that damning evidence is why so many teams balked at signing this time around.

 

[Abraham]

I don't even think you need defense stats - you just need the person to actually try. There is a difference between not being a good defender and not giving a ####. Kobe is not a good defender, but he tries and from time to time snags a steal or pushes the offense a hair out of sync because he was able to stay in front of his man. Harden and Melo don't care and it means that the points they score matter a little less.

Those things matter in a season where many games (and series) will be decided by just a couple possessions.

 

[pollardsvision]

That's about it, yeah. I like him, but not upset that Charlotte didn't keep him at that price.

I think it was the smart long-term move, but it makes CHA much worse this year. Really, if Vonleh doesn't drop, McBob is still in CHA on a 4-year deal I bet.

CHA is letting the kids determine the course from here. If the kids all improve a lot (and they have to or this year will suck), great, but if they don't, suddenly the cubbard looks really, really bare, and retaining McBob for a short run looks really bad.

Our 2015 Playoff spot very possibly went to MIA with McBob though.

McRoberts to Marvin Williams just doesn't strike me as a huge drop-off. The bigger problem so far is not getting someone like to put MKG or Henderson on the bench. Charlotte needs better starters at 2, 3, and 4 to go deeper in the playoffs. Setting aside the long term potential of Vonleh, Zeller, and Hairston they haven't really done that.

The lack of interest in Lance is pretty odd to me. He is a gamble, but the type of gamble this team can afford to make. Who is the target if not him? Evan Turner?

It can work, and I really like the Marvin signing. On a team that lacks playmakers and facilitators, McBob is just really hard to replace.

I agree about Lance. They must really, really hate him. If they don't want Lance, then there's really no option for a big splash this off-season.

They did everything possible for Hayward. Parsons wasn't an option. Ariza's a sucker bet. Deng's a bad fit. Monroe's a bad fit.

I don't even see a small move at this point, other than a cheap 5th big. Roster's at 12 right now. Big makes 13. Any other move means pushing CDR out the door, so the move needs to be a real upgrade over CDR. Maybe Evan Turner I guess, but I'm not sure he's much of an upgrade over CDR. Is PJ Tucker signed yet?

I already count 5 bigs plus Tolliver able to play 4 or Davis from the Summer League.

Oops. Brain fart.

Small signing would still probably need to be an upgrade over CDR/Taylor.

Or eat the Ilyasova contract if they plan on playing Marvin at the 3 a lot. But I assume MIL is wanting assets, not offering them, for the pleasure of eating the Ilyasova contract.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

Team USA starting to take shape for the FIBA World Cup.

Durant, Harden, Love, and Anthony Davis are the 2012 Olympians confirmed to attend training camp.

The 19 announced camp attendees, by position:

PG: Stephen Curry, Derrick Rose, Kyrie Irving, Damian Lillard

SG: James Harden, Bradley Beal, Klay Thompson, DeMar DeRozan

SF: Kevin Durant, Paul George, Gordon Hayward, Chandler Parsons, Kyle Korver

PF: Kevin Love, Blake Griffin, Kenneth Faried

C: Anthony Davis, DeMarcus Cousins, Andre Drummond

Report date for camp is July 27. Players can be added and subtracted from the list before then.

Russell Westbrook, Kawhi Leonard, LaMarcus Aldridge, and David Lee declined invitations.

John Wall is expected to attend camp but hasn't confirmed yet. Team USA says LeBron hasn't said no yet, but I'd be shocked if he plays.

 

[ffldrew]

I don't even think you need defense stats - you just need the person to actually try. There is a difference between not being a good defender and not giving a ####. Kobe is not a good defender, but he tries and from time to time snags a steal or pushes the offense a hair out of sync because he was able to stay in front of his man. Harden and Melo don't care and it means that the points they score matter a little less.

Those things matter in a season where many games (and series) will be decided by just a couple possessions.

I just wish Simmons would do that - find about 10 You Tube videos and post where he doesn't even try - there is not a one in that article. Rather than sticking his nose up Melo's butt with all of the plaudits around his offensive stats - Simmons is to afraid to call Melo out harshly. I think Simmons is afraid of losing his "inside access" if he were to be brutally honest.

 

[Slapdash]

That's about it, yeah. I like him, but not upset that Charlotte didn't keep him at that price.

I think it was the smart long-term move, but it makes CHA much worse this year. Really, if Vonleh doesn't drop, McBob is still in CHA on a 4-year deal I bet.

CHA is letting the kids determine the course from here. If the kids all improve a lot (and they have to or this year will suck), great, but if they don't, suddenly the cubbard looks really, really bare, and retaining McBob for a short run looks really bad.

Our 2015 Playoff spot very possibly went to MIA with McBob though.

McRoberts to Marvin Williams just doesn't strike me as a huge drop-off. The bigger problem so far is not getting someone like to put MKG or Henderson on the bench. Charlotte needs better starters at 2, 3, and 4 to go deeper in the playoffs. Setting aside the long term potential of Vonleh, Zeller, and Hairston they haven't really done that.

The lack of interest in Lance is pretty odd to me. He is a gamble, but the type of gamble this team can afford to make. Who is the target if not him? Evan Turner?

It can work, and I really like the Marvin signing. On a team that lacks playmakers and facilitators, McBob is just really hard to replace.

I agree about Lance. They must really, really hate him. If they don't want Lance, then there's really no option for a big splash this off-season.

They did everything possible for Hayward. Parsons wasn't an option. Ariza's a sucker bet. Deng's a bad fit. Monroe's a bad fit.

I don't even see a small move at this point, other than a cheap 5th big. Roster's at 12 right now. Big makes 13. Any other move means pushing CDR out the door, so the move needs to be a real upgrade over CDR. Maybe Evan Turner I guess, but I'm not sure he's much of an upgrade over CDR. Is PJ Tucker signed yet?

I already count 5 bigs plus Tolliver able to play 4 or Davis from the Summer League.

Oops. Brain fart.

Small signing would still probably need to be an upgrade over CDR/Taylor.

Or eat the Ilyasova contract if they plan on playing Marvin at the 3 a lot. But I assume MIL is wanting assets, not offering them, for the pleasure of eating the Ilyasova contract.

Shouldn't be hard, but I really like CDR. Another high-effort, unselfish player.

Shooting Guard is what worries me. I feel like Kidd-Gilchrist is going to keep improving

 

[pollardsvision]

OK, hypothetical question:

You're the GM of the Cavs as they're presently constituted. Congratulations! Kevin Love's agent has indicated that, if traded for, he'd sign a maximum extension. Minny is, of course, playing hardball.

How much would you give up to get him? Or do you pass and try for someone else next offseason?

I think that adding Love without sacrificing Lebron makes them the favorite not just for next year's title, but for the rest of James's prime. What is two NBA titles in the next half decade worth?

I realize they can't/won't do it, but the deal I'd be looking to make would be Irving, Thompson, and picks or Love and Rubio, etc. As Lebron has showed, he can lead a team where PG is the weakest position. The help LBJ will need in the coming years will be in easing the defensive burden, which Wiggins can do. Irving plays defense as well as I do and while he no doubt will help the offense with James, is there any doubt who is going to be dribbling the ball across half court as time is running out and the Cavs are down 2?

As it is, I think the chance at near term success far outweighs the possibility that Wiggins develops in to a generational superstar that also stays in Cleveland long term. If he pans out, the regular big-market suitors plus Toronto will loom large as he nears free agency.

It's a really tough call with trading Wiggins for Love, but I think I'd do it.

Wiggins being cheaper is fine, but I'm not sure they'll this amazing flexibility either. Starting next year, I don't think they'll really have the cap space to add a star. Irving/LeBron will eat up $40 mill, and keeping all the other recent top 4 picks would put them right around $60 mill anyway.

Sort of like Morey's FA window he saw this year, CLE is in a similar situation. Whatever their core after this year's trade deadline will be the core for a while, plus draft picks, MLE guys, and minimum guys. I might be missing something though.

Tough call, but I say take the shot with Love.

 

[MAC_32]

OK, hypothetical question:

You're the GM of the Cavs as they're presently constituted. Congratulations! Kevin Love's agent has indicated that, if traded for, he'd sign a maximum extension. Minny is, of course, playing hardball.

How much would you give up to get him? Or do you pass and try for someone else next offseason?

Anything involving LeBron, Kyrie, or Wiggins is off the table. Pick 2 (maybe 3) from the rest then add future one's. I don't remember how many the Cavs have, I think they have all of their's plus two others, so if that's the case then I'd be willing to part with as many as 3.

 

[thecatch]

OK, hypothetical question:

You're the GM of the Cavs as they're presently constituted. Congratulations! Kevin Love's agent has indicated that, if traded for, he'd sign a maximum extension. Minny is, of course, playing hardball.

How much would you give up to get him? Or do you pass and try for someone else next offseason?

Anything involving LeBron, Kyrie, or Wiggins is off the table. Pick 2 (maybe 3) from the rest then add future one's. I don't remember how many the Cavs have, I think they have all of their's plus two others, so if that's the case then I'd be willing to part with as many as 3.

I think this is how I'd handle it too.

 

[pollardsvision]

Just to be clear, we're all absolutely sure that "Kyrie Irving's Contract" will never become a thing?

 

[Abraham]

Just to be clear, we're all absolutely sure that "Kyrie Irving's Contract" will never become a thing?

I'm not. His defense is awful. He's an awesome ballhandler but that doesn't put the ball in the basket in and of itself.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

OK, hypothetical question:

You're the GM of the Cavs as they're presently constituted. Congratulations! Kevin Love's agent has indicated that, if traded for, he'd sign a maximum extension. Minny is, of course, playing hardball.

How much would you give up to get him? Or do you pass and try for someone else next offseason?

Anything involving LeBron, Kyrie, or Wiggins is off the table. Pick 2 (maybe 3) from the rest then add future one's. I don't remember how many the Cavs have, I think they have all of their's plus two others, so if that's the case then I'd be willing to part with as many as 3.

It sounds like Flip doesn't want a stockpile of picks, though. He wants players who can help him win some now AND into the future (e.g., Klay Thompson). For Cleveland, I think that means Wiggins or the need to bring in additional team(s). The problem there being that if you're a team with players who can help a team win now, why are you helping Cleveland land Love? Who is looking to stock up on picks and projects AND has impact players they're willing to move?

I'm not sure how it gets done with Cleveland without Wiggins.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

So the Pistons are making all these small time moves. improvements? Meeks, Augustin? Butler?

Any news on Monroe, possible sign & trade? or will teams not waste their time because detroit will match?

 

[Timmay]

OK, hypothetical question:

You're the GM of the Cavs as they're presently constituted. Congratulations! Kevin Love's agent has indicated that, if traded for, he'd sign a maximum extension. Minny is, of course, playing hardball.

How much would you give up to get him? Or do you pass and try for someone else next offseason?

Anything involving LeBron, Kyrie, or Wiggins is off the table. Pick 2 (maybe 3) from the rest then add future one's. I don't remember how many the Cavs have, I think they have all of their's plus two others, so if that's the case then I'd be willing to part with as many as 3.

I think this is how I'd handle it too.

Flip this around as if you are the GM of the TWolves. If you are dealing with the Cavs a deal with Waiters and Thompson with 3 1's (Cavs picks likely to be late 1st) that doesn't look very attractive when you are giving up a superstar. I would only accept Wiggins + picks or if dealing with the Warriors it would be Klay + players/picks. I wouldn't even consider anything else from those 2 teams.

 

[Joe Summer]

Just to be clear, we're all absolutely sure that "Kyrie Irving's Contract" will never become a thing?

His current contract, no. His next contract, maybe.

 

[thecatch]

Just to be clear, we're all absolutely sure that "Kyrie Irving's Contract" will never become a thing?

I'm not. His defense is awful. He's an awesome ballhandler but that doesn't put the ball in the basket in and of itself.

Couldn't we make similar points about "Kevin Love's [forthcoming] Contract"?

 

[Joe Summer]

Flip this around as if you are the GM of the TWolves. If you are dealing with the Cavs a deal with Waiters and Thompson with 3 1's (Cavs picks likely to be late 1st) that doesn't look very attractive when you are giving up a superstar. I would only accept Wiggins + picks or if dealing with the Warriors it would be Klay + players/picks. I wouldn't even consider anything else from those 2 teams.

This sounds like something David Kahn would keep repeating over and over again until Love finally just left town as a free agent.

 

[pollardsvision]

Just to be clear, we're all absolutely sure that "Kyrie Irving's Contract" will never become a thing?

I'm not. His defense is awful. He's an awesome ballhandler but that doesn't put the ball in the basket in and of itself.

Couldn't we make similar points about "Kevin Love's [forthcoming] Contract"?

That's part of why I ask. Love is getting nitpicked to death when we're talking about a team that's giving the max to a 6'2" guy that doesn't play defense and has an injury history.

You want Love and Wiggins both? There's one option out there that isn't being mentioned and people would lose their minds if you did.

 

[thecatch]

Flip this around as if you are the GM of the TWolves. If you are dealing with the Cavs a deal with Waiters and Thompson with 3 1's (Cavs picks likely to be late 1st) that doesn't look very attractive when you are giving up a superstar. I would only accept Wiggins + picks or if dealing with the Warriors it would be Klay + players/picks. I wouldn't even consider anything else from those 2 teams.

This sounds like something David Kahn would keep repeating over and over again until Love finally just left town as a free agent.

Agreed - CLE is operating out of a position of strength. The status quo should be perfectly OK for them. It's the Wolves that need the deal, and frankly that GS proposal isn't all that stellar (trading for the right to overpay Klay), and even that is reportedly something that GS is unwilling to do.

 

[Timmay]

Flip this around as if you are the GM of the TWolves. If you are dealing with the Cavs a deal with Waiters and Thompson with 3 1's (Cavs picks likely to be late 1st) that doesn't look very attractive when you are giving up a superstar. I would only accept Wiggins + picks or if dealing with the Warriors it would be Klay + players/picks. I wouldn't even consider anything else from those 2 teams.

This sounds like something David Kahn would keep repeating over and over again until Love finally just left town as a free agent.

Agreed - CLE is operating out of a position of strength. The status quo should be perfectly OK for them. It's the Wolves that need the deal, and frankly that GS proposal isn't all that stellar (trading for the right to overpay Klay), and even that is reportedly something that GS is unwilling to do.

Minnesota has to overpay free agents anyway just to get players to be attracted to play there. Overpaying Klay wouldn't be all that bad in this situation.

I guess the best thing Cleveland has going for it, is that Lebron hasn't put the urgency of winning it all this year and even he claims it will take some time for all the pieces to fit. If Lebron put it on Cleveland that they have to win this year, I think Cleveland would make the deal with Wiggins involved.

 

[sporthenry]

Flip this around as if you are the GM of the TWolves. If you are dealing with the Cavs a deal with Waiters and Thompson with 3 1's (Cavs picks likely to be late 1st) that doesn't look very attractive when you are giving up a superstar. I would only accept Wiggins + picks or if dealing with the Warriors it would be Klay + players/picks. I wouldn't even consider anything else from those 2 teams.

This sounds like something David Kahn would keep repeating over and over again until Love finally just left town as a free agent.

Agreed - CLE is operating out of a position of strength. The status quo should be perfectly OK for them. It's the Wolves that need the deal, and frankly that GS proposal isn't all that stellar (trading for the right to overpay Klay), and even that is reportedly something that GS is unwilling to do.

Agreed. Not sure why Klay moves the needle that much. Certainly good player but doesn't strike me as a superstar either. The Cav's have the Heat's pick this year and Memphis' pick which is protected in the next 3 years (top 5 but has to be in the lottery) so those likely won't be as late as the Cav's future picks.

 

[thecatch]

Just to be clear, we're all absolutely sure that "Kyrie Irving's Contract" will never become a thing?

I'm not. His defense is awful. He's an awesome ballhandler but that doesn't put the ball in the basket in and of itself.

Couldn't we make similar points about "Kevin Love's [forthcoming] Contract"?

That's part of why I ask. Love is getting nitpicked to death when we're talking about a team that's giving the max to a 6'2" guy that doesn't play defense and has an injury history.You want Love and Wiggins both? There's one option out there that isn't being mentioned and people would lose their minds if you did.

I could see preferring Love to Kyrie. But even so, how much better are the Cavs if they swapped those two straight up? Love may be a better player overall but there are advantages to having an elite ball handler that can get his own shot easily to take pressure off Lebron, and terrible perimeter defense is easier to compensate for than terrible interior defense.

 

[sporthenry]

Just to be clear, we're all absolutely sure that "Kyrie Irving's Contract" will never become a thing?

I'm not. His defense is awful. He's an awesome ballhandler but that doesn't put the ball in the basket in and of itself.

Couldn't we make similar points about "Kevin Love's [forthcoming] Contract"?

That's part of why I ask. Love is getting nitpicked to death when we're talking about a team that's giving the max to a 6'2" guy that doesn't play defense and has an injury history.

You want Love and Wiggins both? There's one option out there that isn't being mentioned and people would lose their minds if you did.

Well for one, Wiggins hasn't played a single NBA minute yet. The hype is great but trading an ASG MVP is pretty risky. B/c LeBron is so good, Wiggins, Love, and Irving are all going to have a skills overlap.

And as others have mentioned with defense, for some, it is just a matter of effort. I think either guy, playing on a contender team with LeBron and the right coach will start trying on defense.

 

[mcintyre1]

OK, hypothetical question:

You're the GM of the Cavs as they're presently constituted. Congratulations! Kevin Love's agent has indicated that, if traded for, he'd sign a maximum extension. Minny is, of course, playing hardball.

How much would you give up to get him? Or do you pass and try for someone else next offseason?

Anything involving LeBron, Kyrie, or Wiggins is off the table. Pick 2 (maybe 3) from the rest then add future one's. I don't remember how many the Cavs have, I think they have all of their's plus two others, so if that's the case then I'd be willing to part with as many as 3.

I think this is how I'd handle it too.

Then neither of you would get KLove on the Cavs. There's no way he's getting moved to them without Wiggins in the deal. Future 1's from the Cavs in that situation would be practically worthless (especially given MN's demonstrated lack of drafting ability). "2 from the rest" is an ocean of mediocre players.

 

[mcintyre1]

Flip this around as if you are the GM of the TWolves. If you are dealing with the Cavs a deal with Waiters and Thompson with 3 1's (Cavs picks likely to be late 1st) that doesn't look very attractive when you are giving up a superstar. I would only accept Wiggins + picks or if dealing with the Warriors it would be Klay + players/picks. I wouldn't even consider anything else from those 2 teams.

This sounds like something David Kahn would keep repeating over and over again until Love finally just left town as a free agent.

I'd honestly prefer he leave town for nothing than absorb bad players. If he just leaves we've at least got a lot of cap room to overpay a good player or two.

 

[mcintyre1]

Just to be clear, we're all absolutely sure that "Kyrie Irving's Contract" will never become a thing?

I'm not. His defense is awful. He's an awesome ballhandler but that doesn't put the ball in the basket in and of itself.

Couldn't we make similar points about "Kevin Love's [forthcoming] Contract"?

I would argue no. I don't think there's any world in which Kevin Love isn't worth a max deal in 4-5 years. The guy does everything except block shots, and he didn't come in to the league that way. He's improved his game dramatically. I also think he gets knocked worse on defense than he deserves. He's bad at help defense and won't ever get you blocks, but 1 on 1 against a player in the post he's not a liability. Pair him with a "rim protector" that does nothing else and you'd still probably be the top team in the league with that lineup.

 

[sporthenry]

OK, hypothetical question:

You're the GM of the Cavs as they're presently constituted. Congratulations! Kevin Love's agent has indicated that, if traded for, he'd sign a maximum extension. Minny is, of course, playing hardball.

How much would you give up to get him? Or do you pass and try for someone else next offseason?

Anything involving LeBron, Kyrie, or Wiggins is off the table. Pick 2 (maybe 3) from the rest then add future one's. I don't remember how many the Cavs have, I think they have all of their's plus two others, so if that's the case then I'd be willing to part with as many as 3.

I think this is how I'd handle it too.

Then neither of you would get KLove on the Cavs. There's no way he's getting moved to them without Wiggins in the deal. Future 1's from the Cavs in that situation would be practically worthless (especially given MN's demonstrated lack of drafting ability). "2 from the rest" is an ocean of mediocre players.

Then what is the best case alternative? Klay Thompson and nothing else? Bunch of picks/role players from Boston, same package from Phoenix. IMO, the Cavs package can compete with any of those packages, just comes down to personal preference. Bledsoe on a max contract or Kelly Olynyk or Jared Sullinger really better than Waiters/Thompson/Bennett.

 

[mcintyre1]

Flip this around as if you are the GM of the TWolves. If you are dealing with the Cavs a deal with Waiters and Thompson with 3 1's (Cavs picks likely to be late 1st) that doesn't look very attractive when you are giving up a superstar. I would only accept Wiggins + picks or if dealing with the Warriors it would be Klay + players/picks. I wouldn't even consider anything else from those 2 teams.

This sounds like something David Kahn would keep repeating over and over again until Love finally just left town as a free agent.

Agreed - CLE is operating out of a position of strength. The status quo should be perfectly OK for them. It's the Wolves that need the deal, and frankly that GS proposal isn't all that stellar (trading for the right to overpay Klay), and even that is reportedly something that GS is unwilling to do.

Agreed. Not sure why Klay moves the needle that much. Certainly good player but doesn't strike me as a superstar either. The Cav's have the Heat's pick this year and Memphis' pick which is protected in the next 3 years (top 5 but has to be in the lottery) so those likely won't be as late as the Cav's future picks.

Klay "moves the needle" because he's an excellent compliment to Rubio. He's pretty much exactly what you'd draw up in designing a SG to pair with him. I'd have no problem paying Klay max money (especially with Parsons garnering that much this year).

 

[pollardsvision]

Just to be clear, we're all absolutely sure that "Kyrie Irving's Contract" will never become a thing?

I'm not. His defense is awful. He's an awesome ballhandler but that doesn't put the ball in the basket in and of itself.

Couldn't we make similar points about "Kevin Love's [forthcoming] Contract"?

That's part of why I ask. Love is getting nitpicked to death when we're talking about a team that's giving the max to a 6'2" guy that doesn't play defense and has an injury history.You want Love and Wiggins both? There's one option out there that isn't being mentioned and people would lose their minds if you did.

I could see preferring Love to Kyrie. But even so, how much better are the Cavs if they swapped those two straight up? Love may be a better player overall but there are advantages to having an elite ball handler that can get his own shot easily to take pressure off Lebron, and terrible perimeter defense is easier to compensate for than terrible interior defense.

Just threw out there knowing it would never happen.

But if I've got to pick 3 players out of these 4 to build around, I know Love's the guy I want 2nd.

The only conversations I'm having right now is how to pull it off and whether it's more important to have Irving or Wiggins. Not Love or Wiggins.

 

[mcintyre1]

OK, hypothetical question:

You're the GM of the Cavs as they're presently constituted. Congratulations! Kevin Love's agent has indicated that, if traded for, he'd sign a maximum extension. Minny is, of course, playing hardball.

How much would you give up to get him? Or do you pass and try for someone else next offseason?

Anything involving LeBron, Kyrie, or Wiggins is off the table. Pick 2 (maybe 3) from the rest then add future one's. I don't remember how many the Cavs have, I think they have all of their's plus two others, so if that's the case then I'd be willing to part with as many as 3.

I think this is how I'd handle it too.

Then neither of you would get KLove on the Cavs. There's no way he's getting moved to them without Wiggins in the deal. Future 1's from the Cavs in that situation would be practically worthless (especially given MN's demonstrated lack of drafting ability). "2 from the rest" is an ocean of mediocre players.

Then what is the best case alternative? Klay Thompson and nothing else? Bunch of picks/role players from Boston, same package from Phoenix. IMO, the Cavs package can compete with any of those packages, just comes down to personal preference. Bledsoe on a max contract or Kelly Olynyk or Jared Sullinger really better than Waiters/Thompson/Bennett.

I'd much prefer the already rumored Lee/Barnes/Green deal to anything the Cavs have offered so far. If we can get some combo of Klay/Lee/Barnes/Green, so much the better. Waiters is an inefficient volume shooter and not much else. Thompson is a perfectly decent role player, but I think we could get similar numbers from a number of FAs in the coming years. I'll admit I'm actually intrigued by Bennett, but he reminds me too much of Derrick Williams to have him be a centerpiece of a trade for Love.

 

[thecatch]

Flip this around as if you are the GM of the TWolves. If you are dealing with the Cavs a deal with Waiters and Thompson with 3 1's (Cavs picks likely to be late 1st) that doesn't look very attractive when you are giving up a superstar. I would only accept Wiggins + picks or if dealing with the Warriors it would be Klay + players/picks. I wouldn't even consider anything else from those 2 teams.

This sounds like something David Kahn would keep repeating over and over again until Love finally just left town as a free agent.

Agreed - CLE is operating out of a position of strength. The status quo should be perfectly OK for them. It's the Wolves that need the deal, and frankly that GS proposal isn't all that stellar (trading for the right to overpay Klay), and even that is reportedly something that GS is unwilling to do.

Agreed. Not sure why Klay moves the needle that much. Certainly good player but doesn't strike me as a superstar either. The Cav's have the Heat's pick this year and Memphis' pick which is protected in the next 3 years (top 5 but has to be in the lottery) so those likely won't be as late as the Cav's future picks.

Klay "moves the needle" because he's an excellent compliment to Rubio. He's pretty much exactly what you'd draw up in designing a SG to pair with him. I'd have no problem paying Klay max money (especially with Parsons garnering that much this year).

The fact that GS is balking at giving up Klay, a substantially less valuable asset than Wiggins, should tell you all you need to know about the market value for a star with an expiring contract who has asked to be traded.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Irving and pick(s) for Love. Picks and Bennett for Rondo. Do what you need to make the salaries match. Call it a day.

 

[mcintyre1]

Flip this around as if you are the GM of the TWolves. If you are dealing with the Cavs a deal with Waiters and Thompson with 3 1's (Cavs picks likely to be late 1st) that doesn't look very attractive when you are giving up a superstar. I would only accept Wiggins + picks or if dealing with the Warriors it would be Klay + players/picks. I wouldn't even consider anything else from those 2 teams.

This sounds like something David Kahn would keep repeating over and over again until Love finally just left town as a free agent.

Agreed - CLE is operating out of a position of strength. The status quo should be perfectly OK for them. It's the Wolves that need the deal, and frankly that GS proposal isn't all that stellar (trading for the right to overpay Klay), and even that is reportedly something that GS is unwilling to do.

Agreed. Not sure why Klay moves the needle that much. Certainly good player but doesn't strike me as a superstar either. The Cav's have the Heat's pick this year and Memphis' pick which is protected in the next 3 years (top 5 but has to be in the lottery) so those likely won't be as late as the Cav's future picks.

Klay "moves the needle" because he's an excellent compliment to Rubio. He's pretty much exactly what you'd draw up in designing a SG to pair with him. I'd have no problem paying Klay max money (especially with Parsons garnering that much this year).

The fact that GS is balking at giving up Klay, a substantially less valuable asset than Wiggins, should tell you all you need to know about the market value for a star with an expiring contract who has asked to be traded.

Some would disagree with that assessment. Wiggins has loads of potential, but a long way to go on offense. If you're trying to win games now, I'd argue Klay is more valuable. Also, if GS was able to move just Klay for Love, I think they do it in a heartbeat. I think they're balking because of all of the other moving pieces involved (Lee, Barnes, taking on Martin).

 

[Premier]

Flip this around as if you are the GM of the TWolves. If you are dealing with the Cavs a deal with Waiters and Thompson with 3 1's (Cavs picks likely to be late 1st) that doesn't look very attractive when you are giving up a superstar. I would only accept Wiggins + picks or if dealing with the Warriors it would be Klay + players/picks. I wouldn't even consider anything else from those 2 teams.

This sounds like something David Kahn would keep repeating over and over again until Love finally just left town as a free agent.

Agreed - CLE is operating out of a position of strength. The status quo should be perfectly OK for them. It's the Wolves that need the deal, and frankly that GS proposal isn't all that stellar (trading for the right to overpay Klay), and even that is reportedly something that GS is unwilling to do.

Agreed. Not sure why Klay moves the needle that much. Certainly good player but doesn't strike me as a superstar either. The Cav's have the Heat's pick this year and Memphis' pick which is protected in the next 3 years (top 5 but has to be in the lottery) so those likely won't be as late as the Cav's future picks.

Klay "moves the needle" because he's an excellent compliment to Rubio. He's pretty much exactly what you'd draw up in designing a SG to pair with him. I'd have no problem paying Klay max money (especially with Parsons garnering that much this year).

The fact that GS is balking at giving up Klay, a substantially less valuable asset than Wiggins, should tell you all you need to know about the market value for a star with an expiring contract who has asked to be traded.

He won't commit to signing in Golden State though.

That's just a teeny tiny difference you left out.

 

[pollardsvision]

I could be wrong, but I think he's said he'd commit to GSW.

 

[Premier]

I could be wrong, but I think he's said he'd commit to GSW.

I don't think so, but I may have missed it.

If he said that and they won't trade him for Klay ####ing Thompson, they should all be fired.

 

[thecatch]

I could be wrong, but I think he's said he'd commit to GSW.

I don't think so, but I may have missed it. If he said that and they won't trade him for Klay ####ing Thompson, they should all be fired.

There's been reported interest, this is just the first link that came up on google - http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=10949807&src=desktop

 

[Good Posting Judge]

I could be wrong, but I think he's said he'd commit to GSW.

I don't think so, but I may have missed it.

If he said that and they won't trade him for Klay ####ing Thompson, they should all be fired.

I think he was open to it, pre-Lebron. Post-Lebron, I don't know.

Lacob was in favor of it, Kerr and West have killed it. If they could've gotten it down to giving up Lee and Thompson and a #1 and not getting Martin back, I think it would've been a great deal for GSW.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Jeff Adrien to the Rockets.

 

[Kev4029]

Agree wih most of the article, though even as a crazy liberal I have a had time blaming guys who decide to take the extra 50M.

What do NBA players actually get on the dollar? It's reported as "150m in career earnings"' but after agent cuts, taxes etc, isn't it more like half that? And unlike the wealthy in other walks of life, these guys don't come from money, so they are also footing the bill for their parents, sisters, brothers, cousins, and friends.

Obviously still an obscene amount of money, but not anywhere near the numbers Simmons and co. Use for shock value in their columns.

Yeah, I don't really remember the Denver situation. Did he really force himself out for the extra money? I thought Denver wanted to trade him to get something for him. Couldn't he just do a S&T at the end of the year and get the same contract?

Also, Melo "only" makes $8-10 million in endorsements. Compare that to LeBron at 42, Kobe at 34 or Rose at 21. Doesn't seem like the big city helped him that much with respect to endorsements.

But I think the biggest aspect that Simmons didn't touch upon was how important family and other life considerations has played in this offseason. Melo did take the most money as well but him and LeBron seemed to stress keeping their kids and wives happy.

He demanded the trade out of Denver. Had he waited till summer and signed somewhere else he would have lost money.

His wife demanded that trade.

Simmons article has one glaring point(besides claiming that George Karl never coached in a Finals) - and it is brought up in comparison to Dirk's Mavs(a team Melo beat in Denver) - and that is the need for "savvy team defense" which is something I am convinced that Melo can not do. And because he doesn't hold himself responsible for this aspect of the game the team around him collapses. It was Chauncey who demanded that from him in the WCF run - and that shows lack of leadership. It's easy to show all these offensive stat comparisons - but you have to find those defensive stats to fully evaluate his game and if it is capable of leading to a championship. Once he left Denver a good Nuggets team was even better and that damning evidence is why so many teams balked at signing this time around.

There are a few points to make with this. First, the trade replaced Billups at starting PG who was really starting to slip, especially defensively, with Lawson who was awesome after the trade. Second, Melo was completely mailing that season in (an indictment of his character, perhaps, but no in his skill) and the Nuggets replaced him with players that were looking to prove themselves. Last, I think Karl was having a hard time motivating the team in the first half of the year, as everybody on the roster knew Melo was leaving. The whole team was just waiting for the inevitable.

Those last 30 games of that season were awesome though. I scalped tickets for two games and bought like 10 seats for 2 and 3 bucks a piece and brought a whole group of friends and sat courtside one game against the Raptors for 80 bucks a pop. It was fun rooting for a team that really moved the ball and pushed the pace like that.

I don't even think you need defense stats - you just need the person to actually try. There is a difference between not being a good defender and not giving a ####. Kobe is not a good defender, but he tries and from time to time snags a steal or pushes the offense a hair out of sync because he was able to stay in front of his man. Harden and Melo don't care and it means that the points they score matter a little less.

Those things matter in a season where many games (and series) will be decided by just a couple possessions.

Kobe and Harden are on a completely different level defensively than Melo. Those two are actively hurting their teams defensively by walking back on defense and getting beat by backdoor cuts constantly. Melo isn't a good defender, but he isn't a big detriment, especially now that he plays mostly power forward.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Interview from a guy who's played for Blatt:

http://hoopshype.com/videos/usatoday/what-its-like-to-play-for-lebrons-new-coach

 

[Kev4029]

Flip this around as if you are the GM of the TWolves. If you are dealing with the Cavs a deal with Waiters and Thompson with 3 1's (Cavs picks likely to be late 1st) that doesn't look very attractive when you are giving up a superstar. I would only accept Wiggins + picks or if dealing with the Warriors it would be Klay + players/picks. I wouldn't even consider anything else from those 2 teams.

This sounds like something David Kahn would keep repeating over and over again until Love finally just left town as a free agent.

Agreed - CLE is operating out of a position of strength. The status quo should be perfectly OK for them. It's the Wolves that need the deal, and frankly that GS proposal isn't all that stellar (trading for the right to overpay Klay), and even that is reportedly something that GS is unwilling to do.

Agreed. Not sure why Klay moves the needle that much. Certainly good player but doesn't strike me as a superstar either. The Cav's have the Heat's pick this year and Memphis' pick which is protected in the next 3 years (top 5 but has to be in the lottery) so those likely won't be as late as the Cav's future picks.

Klay "moves the needle" because he's an excellent compliment to Rubio. He's pretty much exactly what you'd draw up in designing a SG to pair with him. I'd have no problem paying Klay max money (especially with Parsons garnering that much this year).

I bet you're not going to be too happy about a Rubio/Thompson/Pekovic core in a couple years when they cost $45 million a year and leading the TWolves to 25 wins every season.

 

[Kev4029]

Flip this around as if you are the GM of the TWolves. If you are dealing with the Cavs a deal with Waiters and Thompson with 3 1's (Cavs picks likely to be late 1st) that doesn't look very attractive when you are giving up a superstar. I would only accept Wiggins + picks or if dealing with the Warriors it would be Klay + players/picks. I wouldn't even consider anything else from those 2 teams.

This sounds like something David Kahn would keep repeating over and over again until Love finally just left town as a free agent.

Agreed - CLE is operating out of a position of strength. The status quo should be perfectly OK for them. It's the Wolves that need the deal, and frankly that GS proposal isn't all that stellar (trading for the right to overpay Klay), and even that is reportedly something that GS is unwilling to do.

Agreed. Not sure why Klay moves the needle that much. Certainly good player but doesn't strike me as a superstar either. The Cav's have the Heat's pick this year and Memphis' pick which is protected in the next 3 years (top 5 but has to be in the lottery) so those likely won't be as late as the Cav's future picks.

Klay "moves the needle" because he's an excellent compliment to Rubio. He's pretty much exactly what you'd draw up in designing a SG to pair with him. I'd have no problem paying Klay max money (especially with Parsons garnering that much this year).

The fact that GS is balking at giving up Klay, a substantially less valuable asset than Wiggins, should tell you all you need to know about the market value for a star with an expiring contract who has asked to be traded.

Some would disagree with that assessment. Wiggins has loads of potential, but a long way to go on offense. If you're trying to win games now, I'd argue Klay is more valuable. Also, if GS was able to move just Klay for Love, I think they do it in a heartbeat. I think they're balking because of all of the other moving pieces involved (Lee, Barnes, taking on Martin).

The only people that disagree with that assessment are Thompson's family.

 

[MAC_32]

OK, hypothetical question:

You're the GM of the Cavs as they're presently constituted. Congratulations! Kevin Love's agent has indicated that, if traded for, he'd sign a maximum extension. Minny is, of course, playing hardball.

How much would you give up to get him? Or do you pass and try for someone else next offseason?

Anything involving LeBron, Kyrie, or Wiggins is off the table. Pick 2 (maybe 3) from the rest then add future one's. I don't remember how many the Cavs have, I think they have all of their's plus two others, so if that's the case then I'd be willing to part with as many as 3.

It sounds like Flip doesn't want a stockpile of picks, though. He wants players who can help him win some now AND into the future (e.g., Klay Thompson). For Cleveland, I think that means Wiggins or the need to bring in additional team(s). The problem there being that if you're a team with players who can help a team win now, why are you helping Cleveland land Love? Who is looking to stock up on picks and projects AND has impact players they're willing to move?

I'm not sure how it gets done with Cleveland without Wiggins.

Then I wouldn't make the deal.

Minnesota can either cut a deal or get nothing when he walks.

Cleveland has the opportunity to build a potential dynasty if they play this right. As LeBron starts to fade, Kyrie and Wiggins will just be entering their prime.

If Minnesota says Wiggins or no deal, I take no deal and pursue other options later. Sometimes walking away is the best trade decision.

 

[SWC]

hey brohans i am just coming in here to say that i was totally wrong about labraon going back to his home in cleveland i thought he would never do it with the way that what is eating gilberts grapes treated him and the letter and all that but hey the old swcer got it totally wrong i am sorry for wasting every ones time on this one and i hope that he has a good season up there and that cleveland comes back and turns in to a great city again and i will not make fun of it any more my apologies take that to the bank brownham fans

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Wade re-signs for 2 year w/ a player option for the 2nd year. Rumoured to be $16-17M.

Ouch...

 

[Major]

Jeff Adrien to the Rockets.

In Morey we trust #championship

 

[Gatorman]

Wade re-signs for 2 year w/ a player option for the 2nd year. Rumoured to be $16-17M.

Ouch...

reward money for putting together the big 3 (and opting out of 42 million)

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Wade re-signs for 2 year w/ a player option for the 2nd year. Rumoured to be $16-17M.

Ouch...

reward money for putting together the big 3 (and opting out of 42 million)

That is terrible for both Wade and the franchise.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Isn't the third year the player option?

I mean assuming that there was some deal in place to bring him back, it's not like this was a "good" or "bad" move. It's an extension of the original deal.