*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (2 Viewers)

[SWC]

bucks won a couple nights ago so you can all act shocked that they lost last night and are back at five hondo take that to the middle of the river right between the banks bromigos

 

[Sammy3469]

Per Bob Finnan:

Knicks get - Capt. Kirk, Amundson, Cavs 2019 2nd rd pick

Cavs get - Shumpert, Smith, Thunder 2015 1st rd pick (conditional, unknown)

Thunder get - Waiters

Yuck. Don't think I like that for anyone. Crap flying everywhere.

Cavs just going to waive Smith?

Doubt it on Smith. Pretty sure he even has a decent relationship with Lebron...train together, etc.

Brian Windhorst @WindhorstESPN · 1h1 hour ago
Protection on OKC first rounder to Cavs: top 18 protected this year, top 15 protected in '16 and '17 then becomes 2 second round picks.

Seemed like last season the value of even a later first-rounder went up. Wasn't Phoenix lauded for getting a first-rounder for Gortat?

Protected first rounder, Shumpert and Smith make Cleveland the clear winner in this one IMO. Seems like it puts Cleveland in better position to make another move as well.

Totally agree with your conclusion that it's a win for Cleveland and that it puts them in position to make another move for their ruim protector. But on the pick- Phoenix was lauded for that trade because the pick was only top-12 protected, it was thought to be a monster draft, and it belonged to the Wizards, who hadn't been over .500 in six years at the time. The Thunder's first round pick is not quite as valuable.

I haven't seen the salary analysis, but if the Knicks truly are waiving Dalembert at some point, why wasn't he included? Cleveland has other non-guaranteed contracts. Do they think they can do better than him (it wouldn't take much to be better than him at this point)?

The other ironic part is that this draft may end up deeper, so that pick may end up with some real value especially since you pretty much know it'll most likely be the 19 or 20th pick.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Per Bob Finnan:

Knicks get - Capt. Kirk, Amundson, Cavs 2019 2nd rd pick

Cavs get - Shumpert, Smith, Thunder 2015 1st rd pick (conditional, unknown)

Thunder get - Waiters

Yuck. Don't think I like that for anyone. Crap flying everywhere.

Cavs just going to waive Smith?

Doubt it on Smith. Pretty sure he even has a decent relationship with Lebron...train together, etc.

Brian Windhorst @WindhorstESPN · 1h1 hour ago
Protection on OKC first rounder to Cavs: top 18 protected this year, top 15 protected in '16 and '17 then becomes 2 second round picks.

Seemed like last season the value of even a later first-rounder went up. Wasn't Phoenix lauded for getting a first-rounder for Gortat?

Protected first rounder, Shumpert and Smith make Cleveland the clear winner in this one IMO. Seems like it puts Cleveland in better position to make another move as well.

Totally agree with your conclusion that it's a win for Cleveland and that it puts them in position to make another move for their ruim protector. But on the pick- Phoenix was lauded for that trade because the pick was only top-12 protected, it was thought to be a monster draft, and it belonged to the Wizards, who hadn't been over .500 in six years at the time. The Thunder's first round pick is not quite as valuable.

I haven't seen the salary analysis, but if the Knicks truly are waiving Dalembert at some point, why wasn't he included? Cleveland has other non-guaranteed contracts. Do they think they can do better than him (it wouldn't take much to be better than him at this point)?

The other ironic part is that this draft may end up deeper, so that pick may end up with some real value especially since you pretty much know it'll most likely be the 19 or 20th pick.

Good question on Dalembert, although is owed a decent amount of money so that might have been a stumbling block. Maybe they're planning to flip the pick for their rim protector relatively soon?

The crazy hype around that 2014 draft cracks me up when I think about it. Wiz fans were flipping out about losing a pick in this magical draft, pick turned out to be Tyler Ennis. All that hype about the best class ever, and a 2011 Euro pick and a second-rounder are gonna end up on the all-NBA rookie team.

 

[Kev4029]

Per Bob Finnan:

Knicks get - Capt. Kirk, Amundson, Cavs 2019 2nd rd pick

Cavs get - Shumpert, Smith, Thunder 2015 1st rd pick (conditional, unknown)

Thunder get - Waiters

Yuck. Don't think I like that for anyone. Crap flying everywhere.

Cavs just going to waive Smith?

Doubt it on Smith. Pretty sure he even has a decent relationship with Lebron...train together, etc.

Brian Windhorst @WindhorstESPN · 1h1 hour ago
Protection on OKC first rounder to Cavs: top 18 protected this year, top 15 protected in '16 and '17 then becomes 2 second round picks.

Seemed like last season the value of even a later first-rounder went up. Wasn't Phoenix lauded for getting a first-rounder for Gortat?

Protected first rounder, Shumpert and Smith make Cleveland the clear winner in this one IMO. Seems like it puts Cleveland in better position to make another move as well.

There is no doubt that Cleveland won that trade in my mind. Smith does everything Waiters does only better, and Shumpert gives them something of a 3-D player even though he only hits a third of his 3s, plus they got a free pick. This should eliminate the need to play Dellavedova and Joe Harris any significant minutes. Even if you absolutely hate JR Smith, you would have to agree that he's a significant upgrade over Cleveland's bench 2s and he's never had a problem playing as a 6th man.

 

[Sammy3469]

Per Bob Finnan:

Knicks get - Capt. Kirk, Amundson, Cavs 2019 2nd rd pick

Cavs get - Shumpert, Smith, Thunder 2015 1st rd pick (conditional, unknown)

Thunder get - Waiters

Yuck. Don't think I like that for anyone. Crap flying everywhere.

Cavs just going to waive Smith?

Doubt it on Smith. Pretty sure he even has a decent relationship with Lebron...train together, etc.

Brian Windhorst @WindhorstESPN · 1h1 hour ago
Protection on OKC first rounder to Cavs: top 18 protected this year, top 15 protected in '16 and '17 then becomes 2 second round picks.

Seemed like last season the value of even a later first-rounder went up. Wasn't Phoenix lauded for getting a first-rounder for Gortat?

Protected first rounder, Shumpert and Smith make Cleveland the clear winner in this one IMO. Seems like it puts Cleveland in better position to make another move as well.

Totally agree with your conclusion that it's a win for Cleveland and that it puts them in position to make another move for their ruim protector. But on the pick- Phoenix was lauded for that trade because the pick was only top-12 protected, it was thought to be a monster draft, and it belonged to the Wizards, who hadn't been over .500 in six years at the time. The Thunder's first round pick is not quite as valuable.

I haven't seen the salary analysis, but if the Knicks truly are waiving Dalembert at some point, why wasn't he included? Cleveland has other non-guaranteed contracts. Do they think they can do better than him (it wouldn't take much to be better than him at this point)?

The other ironic part is that this draft may end up deeper, so that pick may end up with some real value especially since you pretty much know it'll most likely be the 19 or 20th pick.

Good question on Dalembert, although is owed a decent amount of money so that might have been a stumbling block. Maybe they're planning to flip the pick for their rim protector relatively soon?

The crazy hype around that 2014 draft cracks me up when I think about it. Wiz fans were flipping out about losing a pick in this magical draft, pick turned out to be Tyler Ennis. All that hype about the best class ever, and a 2011 Euro pick and a second-rounder are gonna end up on the all-NBA rookie team.

I guess they're hoping Mozgov becomes available? Is there anyone else?

 

[No. 16]

Per Bob Finnan:

Knicks get - Capt. Kirk, Amundson, Cavs 2019 2nd rd pick

Cavs get - Shumpert, Smith, Thunder 2015 1st rd pick (conditional, unknown)

Thunder get - Waiters

Yuck. Don't think I like that for anyone. Crap flying everywhere.Cavs just going to waive Smith?

Doubt it on Smith. Pretty sure he even has a decent relationship with Lebron...train together, etc.

Brian Windhorst @WindhorstESPN · 1h1 hour ago





Protection on OKC first rounder to Cavs: top 18 protected this year, top 15 protected in '16 and '17 then becomes 2 second round picks.

Seemed like last season the value of even a later first-rounder went up. Wasn't Phoenix lauded for getting a first-rounder for Gortat?Protected first rounder, Shumpert and Smith make Cleveland the clear winner in this one IMO. Seems like it puts Cleveland in better position to make another move as well.

There is no doubt that Cleveland won that trade in my mind. Smith does everything Waiters does only better, and Shumpert gives them something of a 3-D player even though he only hits a third of his 3s, plus they got a free pick. This should eliminate the need to play Dellavedova and Joe Harris any significant minutes. Even if you absolutely hate JR Smith, you would have to agree that he's a significant upgrade over Cleveland's bench 2s and he's never had a problem playing as a 6th man.

My thoughts exactly. There are people who actually think differently?

 

[TobiasFunke]

Per Bob Finnan:

Knicks get - Capt. Kirk, Amundson, Cavs 2019 2nd rd pick

Cavs get - Shumpert, Smith, Thunder 2015 1st rd pick (conditional, unknown)

Thunder get - Waiters

Yuck. Don't think I like that for anyone. Crap flying everywhere.

Cavs just going to waive Smith?

Doubt it on Smith. Pretty sure he even has a decent relationship with Lebron...train together, etc.

Brian Windhorst @WindhorstESPN · 1h1 hour ago
Protection on OKC first rounder to Cavs: top 18 protected this year, top 15 protected in '16 and '17 then becomes 2 second round picks.

Seemed like last season the value of even a later first-rounder went up. Wasn't Phoenix lauded for getting a first-rounder for Gortat?

Protected first rounder, Shumpert and Smith make Cleveland the clear winner in this one IMO. Seems like it puts Cleveland in better position to make another move as well.

Totally agree with your conclusion that it's a win for Cleveland and that it puts them in position to make another move for their ruim protector. But on the pick- Phoenix was lauded for that trade because the pick was only top-12 protected, it was thought to be a monster draft, and it belonged to the Wizards, who hadn't been over .500 in six years at the time. The Thunder's first round pick is not quite as valuable.

I haven't seen the salary analysis, but if the Knicks truly are waiving Dalembert at some point, why wasn't he included? Cleveland has other non-guaranteed contracts. Do they think they can do better than him (it wouldn't take much to be better than him at this point)?

The other ironic part is that this draft may end up deeper, so that pick may end up with some real value especially since you pretty much know it'll most likely be the 19 or 20th pick.

Good question on Dalembert, although is owed a decent amount of money so that might have been a stumbling block. Maybe they're planning to flip the pick for their rim protector relatively soon?

The crazy hype around that 2014 draft cracks me up when I think about it. Wiz fans were flipping out about losing a pick in this magical draft, pick turned out to be Tyler Ennis. All that hype about the best class ever, and a 2011 Euro pick and a second-rounder are gonna end up on the all-NBA rookie team.

I guess they're hoping Mozgov becomes available? Is there anyone else?

Larry Sanders?

Seriously, I dunno. Gotta be more options coming available as the standings shake out, right? I saw Brandon Wright's name mentioned somewhere. Jordan Hill makes sense to me.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

There is no doubt that Cleveland won that trade in my mind. Smith does everything Waiters does only better, and Shumpert gives them something of a 3-D player even though he only hits a third of his 3s, plus they got a free pick. This should eliminate the need to play Dellavedova and Joe Harris any significant minutes. Even if you absolutely hate JR Smith, you would have to agree that he's a significant upgrade over Cleveland's bench 2s and he's never had a problem playing as a 6th man.

My thoughts exactly. There are people who actually think differently?

Yeah, they "won" the trade but replacing crappy SG guards with slightly less crappy SG guards is pretty irrelevant. Now they have the joy of dealing with JR Smith for the next two years. If getting that extra pick leads them to landing Mozgov or some other, then it may be worth it. But it seems like they could have got that pick for just Waiters.

 

[Kev4029]

Per Bob Finnan:

Knicks get - Capt. Kirk, Amundson, Cavs 2019 2nd rd pick

Cavs get - Shumpert, Smith, Thunder 2015 1st rd pick (conditional, unknown)

Thunder get - Waiters

Yuck. Don't think I like that for anyone. Crap flying everywhere.

Cavs just going to waive Smith?

Doubt it on Smith. Pretty sure he even has a decent relationship with Lebron...train together, etc.

Brian Windhorst @WindhorstESPN · 1h1 hour ago
Protection on OKC first rounder to Cavs: top 18 protected this year, top 15 protected in '16 and '17 then becomes 2 second round picks.

Seemed like last season the value of even a later first-rounder went up. Wasn't Phoenix lauded for getting a first-rounder for Gortat?

Protected first rounder, Shumpert and Smith make Cleveland the clear winner in this one IMO. Seems like it puts Cleveland in better position to make another move as well.

Totally agree with your conclusion that it's a win for Cleveland and that it puts them in position to make another move for their ruim protector. But on the pick- Phoenix was lauded for that trade because the pick was only top-12 protected, it was thought to be a monster draft, and it belonged to the Wizards, who hadn't been over .500 in six years at the time. The Thunder's first round pick is not quite as valuable.

I haven't seen the salary analysis, but if the Knicks truly are waiving Dalembert at some point, why wasn't he included? Cleveland has other non-guaranteed contracts. Do they think they can do better than him (it wouldn't take much to be better than him at this point)?

The other ironic part is that this draft may end up deeper, so that pick may end up with some real value especially since you pretty much know it'll most likely be the 19 or 20th pick.

Good question on Dalembert, although is owed a decent amount of money so that might have been a stumbling block. Maybe they're planning to flip the pick for their rim protector relatively soon?

The crazy hype around that 2014 draft cracks me up when I think about it. Wiz fans were flipping out about losing a pick in this magical draft, pick turned out to be Tyler Ennis. All that hype about the best class ever, and a 2011 Euro pick and a second-rounder are gonna end up on the all-NBA rookie team.

There are only a handful of mediocre centers available to them, Mozgov, Koufos and Dalembert have all been discussed recently. Mozgov and Koufos are decent centers that would definitely help them out, but I hardly thing they are game changers, and Dalembert looks totally washed up. To fit somebody into their trade exception, they are pretty limited. Other guys that are cheap and could be had for a first rounder.... Biyombo (not a very good player, blocks shots), Pachulia (good player, never blocks shots), Mahinmi (decent player, doesn't block a lot of shots), Ed Davis (not really a 5), Hickson (doesn't play D), Chris Andersen (would be a good fit if his playing time wasn't so limited).

Their best two choices are Mozgov and Koufos. I've always thought Koufos was the slightly better player and he comes cheaper with only this year on his contract. If they are looking strictly at defense, Mozgov is the better defender, handles the pick and roll much better, and can generally run the floor better.

 

[TobiasFunke]

There is no doubt that Cleveland won that trade in my mind. Smith does everything Waiters does only better, and Shumpert gives them something of a 3-D player even though he only hits a third of his 3s, plus they got a free pick. This should eliminate the need to play Dellavedova and Joe Harris any significant minutes. Even if you absolutely hate JR Smith, you would have to agree that he's a significant upgrade over Cleveland's bench 2s and he's never had a problem playing as a 6th man.

My thoughts exactly. There are people who actually think differently?

Yeah, they "won" the trade but replacing crappy SG guards with slightly less crappy SG guards is pretty irrelevant. Now they have the joy of dealing with JR Smith for the next two years. If getting that extra pick leads them to landing Mozgov or some other, then it may be worth it. But it seems like they could have got that pick for just Waiters.

The real winner was NBA twitter. #JRsGreatestHits is amazing.

 

[Kev4029]

There is no doubt that Cleveland won that trade in my mind. Smith does everything Waiters does only better, and Shumpert gives them something of a 3-D player even though he only hits a third of his 3s, plus they got a free pick. This should eliminate the need to play Dellavedova and Joe Harris any significant minutes. Even if you absolutely hate JR Smith, you would have to agree that he's a significant upgrade over Cleveland's bench 2s and he's never had a problem playing as a 6th man.

My thoughts exactly. There are people who actually think differently?

Yeah, they "won" the trade but replacing crappy SG guards with slightly less crappy SG guards is pretty irrelevant. Now they have the joy of dealing with JR Smith for the next two years. If getting that extra pick leads them to landing Mozgov or some other, then it may be worth it. But it seems like they could have got that pick for just Waiters.

Waiters has been atrocious this year. He can't shoot, defend or play with other ball dominant players. Maybe he figures that out with OKC, but it wasn't happening in Cleveland. There may be more off the court stuff with JR Smith (other than Twitter, he's been fairly well behaved since he got back from China), but his on court antics and poor shot selection are no worse than Waiters, with the big difference being he actually produces. Shumpert isn't a great haul either, but I assume he'll be the starting 2-guard and play a little bit of point guard when Irving is on the bench and Lebron is on the court.

If they would have traded Waiters for a pick and not gotten a SG back, they would have been starting Dellavedova (6.0 PER, .437 TS%) and playing Joe Harris (7.0 PER) 20+ mpg. This should be a huge upgrade for Cleveland.

 

[No. 16]

There is no doubt that Cleveland won that trade in my mind. Smith does everything Waiters does only better, and Shumpert gives them something of a 3-D player even though he only hits a third of his 3s, plus they got a free pick. This should eliminate the need to play Dellavedova and Joe Harris any significant minutes. Even if you absolutely hate JR Smith, you would have to agree that he's a significant upgrade over Cleveland's bench 2s and he's never had a problem playing as a 6th man.

My thoughts exactly. There are people who actually think differently?

Yeah, they "won" the trade but replacing crappy SG guards with slightly less crappy SG guards is pretty irrelevant. Now they have the joy of dealing with JR Smith for the next two years. If getting that extra pick leads them to landing Mozgov or some other, then it may be worth it. But it seems like they could have got that pick for just Waiters.

JR and Iman have shorter or equal contracts to Waiters. JR has a $6.3 million player option for next year and Iman is a RFA.

Waiters is on his rookie deal that will pay him $5+ million next year with qualify offer 2 years from now. So he's just slightly less cheaper than JR.

The Cavs didn't cripple their cap, they got the best player (Iman), AND they are getting a possible 1st round pick. Seems like a land side victory to me.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

There is no doubt that Cleveland won that trade in my mind. Smith does everything Waiters does only better, and Shumpert gives them something of a 3-D player even though he only hits a third of his 3s, plus they got a free pick. This should eliminate the need to play Dellavedova and Joe Harris any significant minutes. Even if you absolutely hate JR Smith, you would have to agree that he's a significant upgrade over Cleveland's bench 2s and he's never had a problem playing as a 6th man.

My thoughts exactly. There are people who actually think differently?

Yeah, they "won" the trade but replacing crappy SG guards with slightly less crappy SG guards is pretty irrelevant. Now they have the joy of dealing with JR Smith for the next two years. If getting that extra pick leads them to landing Mozgov or some other, then it may be worth it. But it seems like they could have got that pick for just Waiters.

Waiters has been atrocious this year. He can't shoot, defend or play with other ball dominant players. Maybe he figures that out with OKC, but it wasn't happening in Cleveland. There may be more off the court stuff with JR Smith (other than Twitter, he's been fairly well behaved since he got back from China), but his on court antics and poor shot selection are no worse than Waiters, with the big difference being he actually produces. Shumpert isn't a great haul either, but I assume he'll be the starting 2-guard and play a little bit of point guard when Irving is on the bench and Lebron is on the court.

If they would have traded Waiters for a pick and not gotten a SG back, they would have been starting Dellavedova (6.0 PER, .437 TS%) and playing Joe Harris (7.0 PER) 20+ mpg. This should be a huge upgrade for Cleveland.

Again, slightly better crap then what they had. Not sure how it can be a "huge upgrade" when neither Shumpert or Smith should be considered anything more than bench fodder. They are dime a dozen guys and one comes with significant baggage.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

There is no doubt that Cleveland won that trade in my mind. Smith does everything Waiters does only better, and Shumpert gives them something of a 3-D player even though he only hits a third of his 3s, plus they got a free pick. This should eliminate the need to play Dellavedova and Joe Harris any significant minutes. Even if you absolutely hate JR Smith, you would have to agree that he's a significant upgrade over Cleveland's bench 2s and he's never had a problem playing as a 6th man.

My thoughts exactly. There are people who actually think differently?

Yeah, they "won" the trade but replacing crappy SG guards with slightly less crappy SG guards is pretty irrelevant. Now they have the joy of dealing with JR Smith for the next two years. If getting that extra pick leads them to landing Mozgov or some other, then it may be worth it. But it seems like they could have got that pick for just Waiters.

JR and Iman have shorter or equal contracts to Waiters. JR has a $6.3 million player option for next year and Iman is a RFA.

Waiters is on his rookie deal that will pay him $5+ million next year with qualify offer 2 years from now. So he's just slightly less cheaper than JR.

The Cavs didn't cripple their cap, they got the best player (Iman), AND they are getting a possible 1st round pick. Seems like a land side victory to me.

Lowe:

"Shumpert and Tristan Thompson, a LeBron buddy, are free agents this summer. Re-signing both would rocket Cleveland way over the luxury tax, and that’s before even accounting for the possibility that the Cavs flip Brendan Haywood’s nonguaranteed contract for another high-salaried guy. Retaining both Shumpert and Thompson long-term might even imperil their flexibility in the vaunted summer of 2016, when most team executives expect the cap to rise by nearly $20 million — to something around $90 million.

Market-value deals for Shump and Thompson would take Cleveland well over that mark, assuming max-level contracts for LeBron and Love. A few other moves could take Cleveland close enough to the tax that even executing a sign-and-trade or using the full midlevel exception1 would be dicey."

 

[No. 16]

You know what? They don't have to resign Shump.

Waiters for a protected 1st is still a good deal. Dude is a bum.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I can't believe I'm about to come to the defense of Dion Waiters, but I think you all might be underselling him here. He clearly didn't fit at all with the LeBron Cavs, but last season he was easily the best of the three SGs in the trade. And he only just turned 23 last month. He could end up being a great pickup for OKC.

 

[Kev4029]

There is no doubt that Cleveland won that trade in my mind. Smith does everything Waiters does only better, and Shumpert gives them something of a 3-D player even though he only hits a third of his 3s, plus they got a free pick. This should eliminate the need to play Dellavedova and Joe Harris any significant minutes. Even if you absolutely hate JR Smith, you would have to agree that he's a significant upgrade over Cleveland's bench 2s and he's never had a problem playing as a 6th man.

My thoughts exactly. There are people who actually think differently?

Yeah, they "won" the trade but replacing crappy SG guards with slightly less crappy SG guards is pretty irrelevant. Now they have the joy of dealing with JR Smith for the next two years. If getting that extra pick leads them to landing Mozgov or some other, then it may be worth it. But it seems like they could have got that pick for just Waiters.

Waiters has been atrocious this year. He can't shoot, defend or play with other ball dominant players. Maybe he figures that out with OKC, but it wasn't happening in Cleveland. There may be more off the court stuff with JR Smith (other than Twitter, he's been fairly well behaved since he got back from China), but his on court antics and poor shot selection are no worse than Waiters, with the big difference being he actually produces. Shumpert isn't a great haul either, but I assume he'll be the starting 2-guard and play a little bit of point guard when Irving is on the bench and Lebron is on the court.

If they would have traded Waiters for a pick and not gotten a SG back, they would have been starting Dellavedova (6.0 PER, .437 TS%) and playing Joe Harris (7.0 PER) 20+ mpg. This should be a huge upgrade for Cleveland.

Again, slightly better crap then what they had. Not sure how it can be a "huge upgrade" when neither Shumpert or Smith should be considered anything more than bench fodder. They are dime a dozen guys and one comes with significant baggage.

Shumpert is the kind of talent that would thrive on a good team while he doesn't show much on a ####ty team. If he can defend the best perimeter player with some success and hit open corner jumpers an acceptable pace he is a massive upgrade over Waiters. JR Smith will suck up all of the wing minutes that Harris and Dellavedova were getting. Replacing Waiters who was playing himself out of the NBA this year with a competent NBA player and replacing two guys who shouldn't be on NBA rosters with a guy who has been no less than good bench player in his career and at times has been one of the best dozen shooting guards in the NBA is worth a lot.

Smith and Shumpert aren't All-Stars but they are both very legitimate rotation players replacing absolute trash.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

You know what? They don't have to resign Shump.

Waiters for a protected 1st is still a good deal. Dude is a bum.

Waiters for a late 1st would be a good deal. Having to eat a year and a half of JR Smith while giving up Waiters for a late 1st? Not that good of a deal.

 

[Kev4029]

I can't believe I'm about to come to the defense of Dion Waiters, but I think you all might be underselling him here. He clearly didn't fit at all with the LeBron Cavs, but last season he was easily the best of the three SGs in the trade. And he only just turned 23 last month. He could end up being a great pickup for OKC.

Waiters was pretty ####ty last year too. He had a PER of 14.0 (strictly kept that high by his outrageous USG relative to his talent level) and a TS% of .508 while ignoring his teammates and playing no defense. I don't think his ceiling is much higher than Shumpert's (who is only a year older) and Shumpert's game fits in much better with a team trying to win games.

I know I have a soft spot for Smith, but I still think he is the best player in this deal over the next season or two.

 

[No. 16]

You know what? They don't have to resign Shump.

Waiters for a protected 1st is still a good deal. Dude is a bum.

Waiters for a late 1st would be a good deal. Having to eat a year and a half of JR Smith while giving up Waiters for a late 1st? Not that good of a deal.

Waiters would have been in the books next year for 5.1 million. JR next year is 6.3 and he's gone.That's $1.2 million difference for essentially the same player (I prefer JR..his highs are higher than Waiters).

Just admit it the deal was good for Cleveland.

 

[No. 16]

There is no doubt that Cleveland won that trade in my mind. Smith does everything Waiters does only better, and Shumpert gives them something of a 3-D player even though he only hits a third of his 3s, plus they got a free pick. This should eliminate the need to play Dellavedova and Joe Harris any significant minutes. Even if you absolutely hate JR Smith, you would have to agree that he's a significant upgrade over Cleveland's bench 2s and he's never had a problem playing as a 6th man.

My thoughts exactly. There are people who actually think differently?

Yeah, they "won" the trade but replacing crappy SG guards with slightly less crappy SG guards is pretty irrelevant. Now they have the joy of dealing with JR Smith for the next two years. If getting that extra pick leads them to landing Mozgov or some other, then it may be worth it. But it seems like they could have got that pick for just Waiters.

Waiters has been atrocious this year. He can't shoot, defend or play with other ball dominant players. Maybe he figures that out with OKC, but it wasn't happening in Cleveland. There may be more off the court stuff with JR Smith (other than Twitter, he's been fairly well behaved since he got back from China), but his on court antics and poor shot selection are no worse than Waiters, with the big difference being he actually produces. Shumpert isn't a great haul either, but I assume he'll be the starting 2-guard and play a little bit of point guard when Irving is on the bench and Lebron is on the court.

If they would have traded Waiters for a pick and not gotten a SG back, they would have been starting Dellavedova (6.0 PER, .437 TS%) and playing Joe Harris (7.0 PER) 20+ mpg. This should be a huge upgrade for Cleveland.

Again, slightly better crap then what they had. Not sure how it can be a "huge upgrade" when neither Shumpert or Smith should be considered anything more than bench fodder. They are dime a dozen guys and one comes with significant baggage.

Shumpert is the kind of talent that would thrive on a good team while he doesn't show much on a ####ty team. If he can defend the best perimeter player with some success and hit open corner jumpers an acceptable pace he is a massive upgrade over Waiters. JR Smith will suck up all of the wing minutes that Harris and Dellavedova were getting. Replacing Waiters who was playing himself out of the NBA this year with a competent NBA player and replacing two guys who shouldn't be on NBA rosters with a guy who has been no less than good bench player in his career and at times has been one of the best dozen shooting guards in the NBA is worth a lot.

Smith and Shumpert aren't All-Stars but they are both very legitimate rotation players replacing absolute trash.

Exactly and like I pointed out it doesn't hurt their cap space.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I can't believe I'm about to come to the defense of Dion Waiters, but I think you all might be underselling him here. He clearly didn't fit at all with the LeBron Cavs, but last season he was easily the best of the three SGs in the trade. And he only just turned 23 last month. He could end up being a great pickup for OKC.

Waiters was pretty ####ty last year too. He had a PER of 14.0 (strictly kept that high by his outrageous USG relative to his talent level) and a TS% of .508 while ignoring his teammates and playing no defense. I don't think his ceiling is much higher than Shumpert's (who is only a year older) and Shumpert's game fits in much better with a team trying to win games.

I know I have a soft spot for Smith, but I still think he is the best player in this deal over the next season or two.

Waiters was decent last year. His TS% was dragged down by a bizarrely low FT% way lower than his other two seasons. And yeah, he's only a season and a year younger than Shumpert, but at that age one year/season is a significant difference.

I HATE Waiters, one of my least favorite players in the league. And he's definitely not the best player of the three SGs this season, and he's also probably the worst fit on a team trying to get its #### together. But on a winner where his role will be more limited and well established like OKC? I bet he ends up giving them a lot. Still a good trade for Cleveland, though.

 

[Kev4029]

There is no doubt that Cleveland won that trade in my mind. Smith does everything Waiters does only better, and Shumpert gives them something of a 3-D player even though he only hits a third of his 3s, plus they got a free pick. This should eliminate the need to play Dellavedova and Joe Harris any significant minutes. Even if you absolutely hate JR Smith, you would have to agree that he's a significant upgrade over Cleveland's bench 2s and he's never had a problem playing as a 6th man.

My thoughts exactly. There are people who actually think differently?

Yeah, they "won" the trade but replacing crappy SG guards with slightly less crappy SG guards is pretty irrelevant. Now they have the joy of dealing with JR Smith for the next two years. If getting that extra pick leads them to landing Mozgov or some other, then it may be worth it. But it seems like they could have got that pick for just Waiters.

JR and Iman have shorter or equal contracts to Waiters. JR has a $6.3 million player option for next year and Iman is a RFA.

Waiters is on his rookie deal that will pay him $5+ million next year with qualify offer 2 years from now. So he's just slightly less cheaper than JR.

The Cavs didn't cripple their cap, they got the best player (Iman), AND they are getting a possible 1st round pick. Seems like a land side victory to me.

Lowe:

"Shumpert and Tristan Thompson, a LeBron buddy, are free agents this summer. Re-signing both would rocket Cleveland way over the luxury tax, and that’s before even accounting for the possibility that the Cavs flip Brendan Haywood’s nonguaranteed contract for another high-salaried guy. Retaining both Shumpert and Thompson long-term might even imperil their flexibility in the vaunted summer of 2016, when most team executives expect the cap to rise by nearly $20 million — to something around $90 million.

Market-value deals for Shump and Thompson would take Cleveland well over that mark, assuming max-level contracts for LeBron and Love. A few other moves could take Cleveland close enough to the tax that even executing a sign-and-trade or using the full midlevel exception1 would be dicey."

They were already in that situation with Thompson. They could simply extend Shumpert's quantifying offer for $3.5m or whatever it would be or just let him walk next offseason. As for JR Smith, I think there is a good chance he declines his option. He's 29 and the cap is likely seeing some sort of jump this year. If he doesn't #### the bed in Cleveland he'll probably make more money this offseason signing a 3 year deal for $15m somewhere than he will when he tries to enter free agency as a 30 year old. Worst case for the Cavs is he is awful this year and they are in the same spot they would have been in with their ####ty bench 2s and they cut him using the stretch provision this offseason giving them a cap hit of $2m/year for three years.

IMO there is no downside to this trade for the Cavs. If Shumpert and JR stink it up, they are in the same spot they were with Waiters but with a free pick. If one or the other picks up their game from what they have been doing, they are better in 2015 with a free pick. If both of them return to peak form, they might actually contend in the playoffs.

 

[No. 16]

And I don't see how people think Waiters will work for OKC. He couldn't play next to Kyrie and LBJ....Westbrook and Durant is pretty much the same thing.

 

[Captain Quinoa]

Shumpert is the kind of talent that would thrive on a good team while he doesn't show much on a ####ty team. If he can defend the best perimeter player with some success and hit open corner jumpers an acceptable pace he is a massive upgrade over Waiters. JR Smith will suck up all of the wing minutes that Harris and Dellavedova were getting. Replacing Waiters who was playing himself out of the NBA this year with a competent NBA player and replacing two guys who shouldn't be on NBA rosters with a guy who has been no less than good bench player in his career and at times has been one of the best dozen shooting guards in the NBA is worth a lot.

Smith and Shumpert aren't All-Stars but they are both very legitimate rotation players replacing absolute trash.

Why would they want to play Delly less?

Josh Weir @jweirREP Follow

Matthew Dellavedova is shooting 9% — yes, 9% — on 2-point shots the past eight games (2-for-22). 18% on 2-point looks for season.

Oh.. yeah.

 

[TobiasFunke]

And I don't see how people think Waiters will work for OKC. He couldn't play next to Kyrie and LBJ....Westbrook and Durant is pretty much the same thing.

Cleveland needed him to contribute so they had to work with/around him. OKC doesn't need him at all. He's their Reggie Jackson insurance/supplement and nothing more. Plus LeBron was a new arrival from his perspective and Kyrie gets away with being a horribly lazy defender. I think the environment and balance of power will be totally different.

 

[Kev4029]

I can't believe I'm about to come to the defense of Dion Waiters, but I think you all might be underselling him here. He clearly didn't fit at all with the LeBron Cavs, but last season he was easily the best of the three SGs in the trade. And he only just turned 23 last month. He could end up being a great pickup for OKC.

Waiters was pretty ####ty last year too. He had a PER of 14.0 (strictly kept that high by his outrageous USG relative to his talent level) and a TS% of .508 while ignoring his teammates and playing no defense. I don't think his ceiling is much higher than Shumpert's (who is only a year older) and Shumpert's game fits in much better with a team trying to win games.

I know I have a soft spot for Smith, but I still think he is the best player in this deal over the next season or two.

Waiters was decent last year. His TS% was dragged down by a bizarrely low FT% way lower than his other two seasons. And yeah, he's only a season and a year younger than Shumpert, but at that age one year/season is a significant difference.

I HATE Waiters, one of my least favorite players in the league. And he's definitely not the best player of the three SGs this season, and he's also probably the worst fit on a team trying to get its #### together. But on a winner where his role will be more limited and well established like OKC? I bet he ends up giving them a lot. Still a good trade for Cleveland, though.

The problem he was having in Cleveland is he wouldn't limit his role. He complains if he doesn't get minutes but he isn't good enough to start and he is happy taking the ball away from better players. Maybe a change or scenery will help and I think it was a fine move on OKC's part, but he had to leave Cleveland. Even if he is the best player in the trade, which I don't agree with, he certainly was the worst fit of the three for Cleveland.

 

[thecatch]

I can't believe I'm about to come to the defense of Dion Waiters, but I think you all might be underselling him here. He clearly didn't fit at all with the LeBron Cavs, but last season he was easily the best of the three SGs in the trade. And he only just turned 23 last month. He could end up being a great pickup for OKC.

Waiters was pretty ####ty last year too. He had a PER of 14.0 (strictly kept that high by his outrageous USG relative to his talent level) and a TS% of .508 while ignoring his teammates and playing no defense. I don't think his ceiling is much higher than Shumpert's (who is only a year older) and Shumpert's game fits in much better with a team trying to win games.

I know I have a soft spot for Smith, but I still think he is the best player in this deal over the next season or two.

I think Smith is the player most likely to be out of the league in 2 years in the deal, though he is the most talented.

 

[Village Idiot]

LeBron hand picked the team and the additions including the coach. By coasting or saving himself for the stretch run he is just being typical entitlement LeBron.

How could anyone hope to succeed with the self appointed alpha male basically mailing it in and suggesting that the team needs to get better (but not LeBron)?

What he needs to do is lead by example. Only problem is he's too talented to do that. He's much too entitled to accept responsibility for his poor play (read: poor for a leader) and he's certainly too proud to admit that Riley and Spolestra deserve the lions share of the credit for the Miami success.

This post is awful.

If you could dispute even one single part of it you would have already. I wonder if you'll prove to be more or less of a chicken#### than little Tobi F.

Awful.

Ignore is your friend Abe, I just auto skip any post he makes in this thread.

Another I-clique candy ### who can't come up with anything better than ignore. I'm sure your kids have lots of ribbons.

Where is you proof LeBron hand picked a coach for a team he was not playing for while he was still playing for another team?

You are the one that said LeBron hand picked the coach so the burden of proof is on you.

I put people on ignore that make ridiculous statements they cannot back up.

Maybe the Enquirer is hiring?

 

[SWC]

so at first glance you might think to yourself brohan maybe waiters is a little like westbrook because they both go flying down the lane a lot the difference is that westbrook might look out of control but he is just so fast and powerful that you think he is but he really is not while on the other hand waiters is truly out of control and stinks up the joint and makes his teammates worse there you have it another riddle solved by the old swcer take that to the bank bromigos

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Cavs get Mozgov for 2 1sts.

Has the Denver fire sale begun?

 

[rodg12]

So Cleveland just, essentially, turned Dion Waiters and Memphis's pick into J.R. Smith, Iman Shumpert and Timofey Mozgov. I like that move for them. A lot.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

I've never seen anyone do this before (first highlight):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZurA01IYulE&feature=share

 

[Joe Summer]

Two firsts for Mozgov??

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Wojjy Bear says they're Memphis and OKC's picks:

Adrian Wojnarowski @WojYahooNBA · 11m11 minutes ago
Protections on Cleveland first-round to Denver via OKC: 1-18 in 2015, 1-15 in '16; 1-15 in 2017. After '17, it becomes two seconds.

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Adrian Wojnarowski @WojYahooNBA · 13m13 minutes ago
Here are protections on Memphis pick: 1-5 and 15-30 in 2015, 1-5 and 15-30 in '16, 1-5 in '17 and 1-5 in 2018; unprotected in 2019

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

So Cleveland just, essentially, turned Dion Waiters and Memphis's pick into J.R. Smith, Iman Shumpert and Timofey Mozgov. I like that move for them. A lot.

Yeah, that's a win.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

NURKIC!

 

[Kev4029]

NURKIC!

WOOOOOOO! I'm actually a little excited to see him 25 mpg.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

NURKIC!

WOOOOOOO! I'm actually a little excited to see him 25 mpg.

Are they going to completely blow it up?

 

[fantasycurse42]

Thread title is misleading...

NYK doing a good job clearing cap space. Yea they got junk, but much cheaper junk. Without Amare next year too

I have faith in what Phil is doing.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Thread title is misleading...

NYK doing a good job clearing cap space. Yea they got junk, but much cheaper junk. Without Amare next year too

I have faith in what Phil is doing.

Shumpert's contact was not unreasonable.

 

[Kev4029]

Cavs get Mozgov for 2 1sts.

Has the Denver fire sale begun?

Love the trade for the Nuggets. I think the OKC pick should happen this year, and hopefully end up in the 19-22 range. The Memphis pick won't come this year, baring an epic collapse, but it could be a nice pick next year if Gasol leaves, or a mediocre pick in a couple years. For a middling starting center who is 28, it was a very good deal.

 

[Kev4029]

NURKIC!

WOOOOOOO! I'm actually a little excited to see him 25 mpg.

Are they going to completely blow it up?

They should have last year, maybe ownership is finally figuring it out a season late. They have a whole lot of decent assets that they could flip for pick or prospects. The only player with a bad contract is McGee, everybody else is tradable. Gallinari, Chandler and Afflalo would all demand a decent return, Foye, Robinson, Hickson and maybe Gee would get some sort of returns. I think Lawson and Faried are here for the long haul and they'll build around those two, Nurkic and possibly Gary Harris.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Thread title is misleading...

NYK doing a good job clearing cap space. Yea they got junk, but much cheaper junk. Without Amare next year too

I have faith in what Phil is doing.

Shumpert's contact was not unreasonable.

It wasn't, but they're starting from scratch... They'll be very competitive within 3 years.

 

[Poke_4_Life]

So Waiters is wearing 23 for OKC. He wanted 13, but Thunder wouldn't let him have 13 (Harden's old number).

I find that funny/sad.

 

[Sammy3469]

OMGOMGOMGOGMGOGMGMFJMG

TRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111111111111111111111111111

 

[Capella]

@BrianMFloyd: I'M OUT RT @WFNYScott: Holy #### http://t.co/OJSSmVunXh

 

[Sammy3469]

@BrianMFloyd: I'M OUT RT @WFNYScott: Holy #### http://t.co/OJSSmVunXh

The Cavs are going to be fun

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

OMGOMGOMGOGMGOGMGMFJMG

TRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111111111111111111111111111

SLAP IT HIGH BABY!

 

[Sammy3469]

OMGOMGOMGOGMGOGMGMFJMG

TRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111111111111111111111111111

SLAP IT HIGH BABY!

JR's antics, Love's pouting, Iman's haircuts, Mozgov being MOZGOV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, (plus LeBron)...I'm so jealous of Cavs fans right now.