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NCAA HOOPS THREAD! -- K petitions to get Maui Jim Maui Invitational moved to Transylvania (3 Viewers)

Who is worse?

  • Total voters
    278
parasaurolophus said:
Speaking of making your school look like a lower tier school....

Storming the court because you just beat 6th ranked mich st? 
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Thought that was  :loco:  myself. What once was...

Moreso I guess it may be kids having fun with the win.  I have no issue with that.

 
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HUGE win for UCF over Houston. That should punch their dance card. Which is good. The more games to watch Tacko Fall the better.

 
whoknew said:
Yea. My bad. The NBA rule.

ETA: Clear path is different than continuation. What is wrong with continuation?
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Continuation leads to way too many free throws for guys taking shots after being fouled that weren't really going to shoot. Even the NBA is allegedly trying to rein it in. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
Continuation leads to way too many free throws for guys taking shots after being fouled that weren't really going to shoot. Even the NBA is allegedly trying to rein it in. 
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True. They are trying to control it for shots on the perimeter. But I think if guys are driving to the hole - and have picked up the dribble but haven't entered the shooting motion (if that makes sense) - that is ok to have continuation on. I like that part of the rule. 

So not continuation if the player starts any kind of motion after being fouled. But if they are taking it to the hole and are fouled, that's ok.

Hard to describe. I'm not doing a very good job.

 
If there was ever a year to get some mid-major's in this field, this is the one.  

If Belmont and Murray meet in their final how do you keep that loser out?

There's the part of me that wants VCU and Wofford to lose to get another one of their other teams in, but will they be left out with a loss?  I hope not, but...

I really hope Buffalo loses the MAC.  There's some good basketball being played in this conference that most don't realize.  Same with Gonzaga and the WCC.  And the Mountain West.  But how does that leeg get 3 in?  Fresno upset Nevada in the semi's then Utah St in the final?

Teams like Lipscomb, UC-Irvine, Hofstra, Old Dominion, New Mexico St, and South Dakota St have to win their conf tourney, but it'd be a shame to see someone else from their leeg get in rather than them.  They could actually cause problems.

If teams on the major conference bubble play their way in then so be it but more of the same and you're putting known mediocrity in at the expense of the unknown that may not be.  The major conference bubble is worse than recent years and mid-majors are better.  So do something about it.

/rant

 
MAC_32 said:
If there was ever a year to get some mid-major's in this field, this is the one.  

If Belmont and Murray meet in their final how do you keep that loser out?

There's the part of me that wants VCU and Wofford to lose to get another one of their other teams in, but will they be left out with a loss?  I hope not, but...

I really hope Buffalo loses the MAC.  There's some good basketball being played in this conference that most don't realize.  Same with Gonzaga and the WCC.  And the Mountain West.  But how does that leeg get 3 in?  Fresno upset Nevada in the semi's then Utah St in the final?

Teams like Lipscomb, UC-Irvine, Hofstra, Old Dominion, New Mexico St, and South Dakota St have to win their conf tourney, but it'd be a shame to see someone else from their leeg get in rather than them.  They could actually cause problems.

If teams on the major conference bubble play their way in then so be it but more of the same and you're putting known mediocrity in at the expense of the unknown that may not be.  The major conference bubble is worse than recent years and mid-majors are better.  So do something about it.

/rant
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I actually think this year will have a bunch of mid majors. There are just too many power conference teams with terrible conference records. 

Wofford and Buffalo are in. They are 14th and 15th in NET. Utah St. is in. 30th. VCU is in at 36th.

St. Mary's (38th) needs to make a good showing in their tourney and they are in.

Murray St. doesnt have the rankings, but I think they are in just because of star power. 

 
MAC_32 said:
If there was ever a year to get some mid-major's in this field, this is the one.  

If Belmont and Murray meet in their final how do you keep that loser out?

There's the part of me that wants VCU and Wofford to lose to get another one of their other teams in, but will they be left out with a loss?  I hope not, but...

I really hope Buffalo loses the MAC.  There's some good basketball being played in this conference that most don't realize.  Same with Gonzaga and the WCC.  And the Mountain West.  But how does that leeg get 3 in?  Fresno upset Nevada in the semi's then Utah St in the final?

Teams like Lipscomb, UC-Irvine, Hofstra, Old Dominion, New Mexico St, and South Dakota St have to win their conf tourney, but it'd be a shame to see someone else from their leeg get in rather than them.  They could actually cause problems.

If teams on the major conference bubble play their way in then so be it but more of the same and you're putting known mediocrity in at the expense of the unknown that may not be.  The major conference bubble is worse than recent years and mid-majors are better.  So do something about it.

/rant
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Seems like the MAC and SoCon are your potential bid-stealer conferences.  Buffalo and Wofford should be in.

Anyone can win in the MAC on a given day.  Toledo and Bowling Green certainly have the horses to keep up with Buffalo in Cleveland; Toledo is a very solid team, and BG already beat UB once.  Hell, UB already lost to the 9th-best MAC team according to Kenpom [sidenote - that game was atrociously officiated for both teams and NIU won on a buzzer beater, but a loss is a loss].  Anything can happen.

While I won't cheer for someone to beat UB, it'd be neat to see a second MAC team in the tournament.  Toledo and BG would be dangerous on the 13/14 line, and it'd be cool to see one of them make it.  Toledo hasn't made the tournament since 1980, and BG hasn't made it since 1968.  I really like what Michael Huger has done with the BG program so far.

 
TLEF316 said:
I hate .500 teams (or even worse) from major conferences getting in. All for rewarding good mid majors.
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The counter to that is that all 14 teams in the Big Ten are in the top 75 of kenpom and top 100 of the Net Rankings. So every game in the conference is a tough game. 

VCU, for example, is the highest rated A10 team in kenpom at 42.

 
Steve Tasker said:
Seems like the MAC and SoCon are your potential bid-stealer conferences.  Buffalo and Wofford should be in.

Anyone can win in the MAC on a given day.  Toledo and Bowling Green certainly have the horses to keep up with Buffalo in Cleveland; Toledo is a very solid team, and BG already beat UB once.  Hell, UB already lost to the 9th-best MAC team according to Kenpom [sidenote - that game was atrociously officiated for both teams and NIU won on a buzzer beater, but a loss is a loss].  Anything can happen.

While I won't cheer for someone to beat UB, it'd be neat to see a second MAC team in the tournament.  Toledo and BG would be dangerous on the 13/14 line, and it'd be cool to see one of them make it.  Toledo hasn't made the tournament since 1980, and BG hasn't made it since 1968.  I really like what Michael Huger has done with the BG program so far.
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The table is set for a BG/Toledo showdown Friday night with the winner getting their crack at your guys.  I don't know if I can make it down for the (potential) semi, but if BG makes it to the final I'll be there.

 
whoknew said:
The counter to that is that all 14 teams in the Big Ten are in the top 75 of kenpom and top 100 of the Net Rankings. So every game in the conference is a tough game. 

VCU, for example, is the highest rated A10 team in kenpom at 42.
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But we know Ohio is not good.  They're 2-6 on the road in conference play, getting blown out 4 times.  Iowa was the first quality win they've tallied since opening night.  They've gotten by winning (some of the) games they were supposed to win and losing just about every game they were supposed to lose.  And Minnesota's case isn't any better.

Put the computers aside, they're known mediocrity.

 
parasaurolophus said:
Murray St. doesnt have the rankings, but I think they are in just because of star power. 
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Belmont/Murray is probably the one that's gonna bother me the most.  The rest really just depend on the favorite getting knocked out.  The quality of play is there, but the profiles of the 2nd and 3rd place teams are not.  But those two?  How do you leave one of those teams at 27-5 out...

 
MAC_32 said:
But we know Ohio is not good.  They're 2-6 on the road in conference play, getting blown out 4 times.  Iowa was the first quality win they've tallied since opening night.  They've gotten by winning (some of the) games they were supposed to win and losing just about every game they were supposed to lose.  And Minnesota's case isn't any better.

Put the computers aside, they're known mediocrity.
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I hear you. I'm not going to cry for MN or OSU or IU if they miss the tournament. And in general, I'd rather see Murray State try to upset Tennessee that Ohio State get whacked. 

But I get the argument. I doubt very much that Murray State would be 25-4 if they played in the Big Ten or the ACC or whatever.

Again, though, I'm totally fine with them getting in over Ohio State.

 
whoknew said:
The counter to that is that all 14 teams in the Big Ten are in the top 75 of kenpom and top 100 of the Net Rankings. So every game in the conference is a tough game. 

VCU, for example, is the highest rated A10 team in kenpom at 42.
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Completely reasonable position. And when you consider that the stated goal of he committee is to pick the 34 (or whatever the number is now) truly best at-large resumes, picking the Oklahomas and Minnesotas of the world over Murray State or Furman makes sense. 

I guess I just think the tournament is a lot more fun when its more representative. Would Minnesota have a better record than Furman if they switched schedules? Almost definitely. I just wish we rewarded teams for having good seasons instead of mediocre seasons in good leagues. (especially when you consider how hard it is for good mid-majors to get fair cracks at the big boys)

 
whoknew said:
I hear you. I'm not going to cry for MN or OSU or IU if they miss the tournament. And in general, I'd rather see Murray State try to upset Tennessee that Ohio State get whacked. 

But I get the argument. I doubt very much that Murray State would be 25-4 if they played in the Big Ten or the ACC or whatever.

Again, though, I'm totally fine with them getting in over Ohio State.
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Of course they wouldn't.  But I think it's harder to go 16-2 in a conference like the Ohio Valley than it is to go 9-11 in any major conference.

 
I do think that they'll put Murray in just to feature Morant. (assuming resumes are close) They did the same thing with Oklahoma last year even though they were absolutely dreadful in conference.

But a mid-major without a household name on the roster rarely gets the benefit of the doubt.

 
the bummer for me here is that a team like Indiana which is 15-14 with 4 wins since January 1 probably backdoors in if they get to the semi's of the B10 tourney

 
A few tournament :popcorn:  thoughts based on efficiency analysis to date compared to other tournament years.  I believe last year was the first year the Committee started using efficiency metrics in seeding teams and it showed.  The resulting seeding was the most in line with the final efficiency rankings than it ever had been.  

- Range 1-8, likely 1 and 2 seeds, are historically good this year.  Does this mean no upsets for them in R64 or R32?  Probably, but wait...  Teams in the 28-45 ranks are also historically strong, and most of these are very likely to be 8 or 9 seeds.  I still think most 1s and 2s last to the S16 though.  8 and 9s are better this year, but the projected 1s and 2s are just ridiculously better.  

- For teams in the range 9-27, we need to pay attention to where they are seeded, because they are more in line with historical averages.  Most if not all of my upsets will come from this tier because both of the tiers surrounding them are are so strong.  Wofford, Buffalo, Nevada in this range all seem like potential victims early on.  

- That 28-45 tier is important because in most of the previous years, a team from this range has been a F4 cinderella.  Despite being stronger than usual, I wouldn't want to be an 8 or a 9 this year due to the strength of the 1 seeds, and if there is a cinderella from this range, I dont think its an 8 or 9.  But one of the teams in this range as a 10 or 11 could cause trouble, or maybe one of the strong teams from the front of the curve gets underseeded as a 7 and does the same.   Iowa, Syracuse, VCU are all in this range.  Villanova is in danger of slipping here or could be underseeded here.  So is Kansas St.  Indiana is just outside of this range as well, at 48 but probably won't be in the tournament.

 
Chris Clemons of Campbell is currently 6th all-time in points.  He has 3 conference tournament games and maybe 1 NCAA game to get up to 2nd all-time.  Would need 134 points.  He will almost certainly get to 4th (30 points), and could pass Lionel Simmons for 3rd with 82.  No chance of getting to number 1 Pete Maravich.

Mike Daum from S. Dakota St. could get up to number 7.

Code: 
k	Name			School		From	To		PTS
1	Pete Maravich		LSU		1967‑68	1969‑70	3667
2	Freeman Williams	Portland St.1974‑75	1977‑78	3249
3	Lionel Simmons		La Salle	1986‑87	1989‑90	3217
4	Alphonso Ford		Miss. Valley St.1989‑90	1992‑93	3165
5	Doug McDermott		Creighton	2010‑11	2013‑14	3150
6	Chris Clemons		Campbell	2015‑16	2018‑19	3136
7	Harry Kelly		Texas Southern	1979‑80	1982‑83	3066
8	Keydren Clark		St. Peter's	2002‑03	2005‑06	3058
9	Mike Daum		S. Dakota St.	2015‑16	2018‑19	3026
10	Hersey Hawkins		Bradley		1984‑85	1987‑88	3008
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Long Ball Larry said:
Chris Clemons of Campbell is currently 6th all-time in points.  He has 3 conference tournament games and maybe 1 NCAA game to get up to 2nd all-time.  Would need 134 points.  He will almost certainly get to 4th (30 points), and could pass Lionel Simmons for 3rd with 82.  No chance of getting to number 1 Pete Maravich.

Mike Daum from S. Dakota St. could get up to number 7.
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Pistol Pete 3 years, no shot clock, no three point line. Ridiculous. lol

 
All coming together for UNC. Needed a game like last night, close road conference game before the ACC Tourney. 

Prob won't be tested against Zionless Duke this weekend, but I hope Duke has him back for the conference tourney - would like them to beat at least Duke with Zion or UVA once before the dance. 

 
fantasycurse42 said:
All coming together for UNC. Needed a game like last night, close road conference game before the ACC Tourney. 

Prob won't be tested against Zionless Duke this weekend, but I hope Duke has him back for the conference tourney - would like them to beat at least Duke with Zion or UVA once before the dance. 
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If UNC wins on Saturday and neither Duke nor UNC wins the ACC tournament I don't see an argument for giving Duke the 1 seed over the Heels. Even if you make the argument that Duke would have one or two more wins with a healthy Zion, you'd then have to assume UNC would have beaten Virginia at home with a healthy Nas Little and Cam Johnson.

 
Not much I loathe more this time of year than 1 seed talk because it really doesn't mean anything, but I got hooked - Duke's 1 seed fate simply depends on Zion's health.  That's it.

 
MAC_32 said:
Not much I loathe more this time of year than 1 seed talk because it really doesn't mean anything, but I got hooked - Duke's 1 seed fate simply depends on Zion's health.  That's it.
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Sorry you were hooked, but no. If the hypothetical I laid out comes to pass, UNC gets the 1 seed.  There's really no reasonable argument otherwise. UNC would have the better record against the tougher schedule. At some point the seeding has to be based on game results rather than a subjective evaluation of talent; otherwise you're edging college basketball's postseason format closer to college football's and nobody wants that. And as I mentioned before you also can't reasonably argue that Duke should be evaluated as if Zion had been healthy and not also account for UNC's injury problems for the Virginia game.

And in this case it's meaningful not just because of the higher seed, but because the 1 seed likely gets to play its subregional game in South Carolina and its regional at a fairly neutral site while the other would be shipped away from the southeast for its subregional (unless Virginia doesn't want to play in South Carolina) and then have to play its regional in Kentucky with Kentucky as the 1 seed or in California with Gonzaga as the 1 seed.

That said I'm not sure it matters, because I have a feeling Duke ruins senior night for the Heels on Saturday.  The Heels are due for a letdown and Duke has had a lot of time to adjust to life without Zion and got a wakeup call from Wake a couple days ago.

 
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MAC_32 said:
Not much I loathe more this time of year than 1 seed talk because it really doesn't mean anything, but I got hooked - Duke's 1 seed fate simply depends on Zion's health.  That's it.
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Agreed.  Zion plays in the ACC Tournament then they will be a 1 seed on Selection sunday.  As they should be.

 
TobiasFunke said:
If UNC wins on Saturday and neither Duke nor UNC wins the ACC tournament I don't see an argument for giving Duke the 1 seed over the Heels. Even if you make the argument that Duke would have one or two more wins with a healthy Zion, you'd then have to assume UNC would have beaten Virginia at home with a healthy Nas Little and Cam Johnson.
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Agree, if they win Sunday, as long as Duke doesn't win the ACC Tourney, they should have a 1 locked up. 

Ramblin Wreck said:
Agreed.  Zion plays in the ACC Tournament then they will be a 1 seed on Selection sunday.  As they should be.
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If they lose to UNC twice, their only road to a number 1 is beating UNC in the conference semis (or if they don't play UNC, beating UVA in the final). 

With a healthy Zion, they'll prob wind up as the strongest 2. 

To my original point, UNC has put it all together at the right time. 

 
fantasycurse42 said:
Agree, if they win Sunday, as long as Duke doesn't win the ACC Tourney, they should have a 1 locked up. 

If they lose to UNC twice, their only road to a number 1 is beating UNC in the conference semis (or if they don't play UNC, beating UVA in the final). 

With a healthy Zion, they'll prob wind up as the strongest 2. 

To my original point, UNC has put it all together at the right time. 
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I don't think Virginia has one locked up yet and I think it's possible though unlikely that the ACC could get three on the one-line.  I do think Duke will be shown grace for some losses if Zion plays next weekend.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
I don't think Virginia has one locked up yet and I think it's possible though unlikely that the ACC could get three on the one-line.  I do think Duke will be shown grace for some losses if Zion plays next weekend.
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I can't see UVA not being a one seed. Their only losses were to Duke, one of which was by 2 @ Duke.

 
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