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New England wr to benefit the most from the TE debacle? (1 Viewer)

So what do we have so far?

Danny A. + Edelman + Vereen = Welker + AHern + Gronk?

Yikes.

McDaniels has his work cut out for him.
Last year saw five rookies top the 600 yard barrier, including three over 800 yards:

Justin Blackmon - 865 yards

TY Hilton - 861 yards

Josh Gordon - 805 yards

Chris Givens - 698 yards

Kendall Wright - 626 yards

Those aren't the yardage totals you want from a dominant FF WR, but all of these rookies were major contributors right out of the box for their NFL teams.

In 2010 New England spent a 2nd rounder on Rob Gronkowski and a 4th rounder on Aaron Hernandez.

In 2013 New England spent a 2nd rounder on Aaron Dobson and a 4th rounder on Josh Boyce.

The Rams took Quick in the 2nd last year and Givens in the 4th. That duo yielded a 700 yard rookie season. The Bucs took Arrelious Benn in the 2nd and Mike Williams in the 4th in 2010. Williams had over 900 yards.

People looking at the New England WR situation as Amendola + Edelman + a bunch of scrubs are missing a huge piece of the equation. New England spent high picks on those rookies and if either or both of them are ready to contribute in year one, expect to see them on the field.
Well I guess I was literally doing the math, and I think it will definitely be worth it to people to figure it out:

Brady had 4827 yds passing in 2012.

Welker - 1354

Gronk - 790 (11 G)

Hern - 483 (10 G)

Lloyd - 911

Edelman threw in 235

The first four are 3538 of Brady's 4827

I'm guessing Danny A. gets over 1000 but does not replicate Welker's stats. That's a guess.

Weeks 10-11 Hernandez then Gronk were out and Edelman had a role to play, I guess that's what RW is leaning on. That was 5/58/1 then 2/64/1 in two blowouts, then hurt.

Even if Danny A. gets 1100 and Edelman gets 900 (huge if, let's assume health and all the rest, 50/gX16), and Gronk does what he did last year and more (say 900 in 10 G), then that still leaves a lot of territory to cover.

If Dobson and Boyce were drafted as the future, it's time to move them up in the schedule. Given the injury pasts of Amendola, Edelman, Gronk and Ballard, and the fact that maybe Edelman isn't up to such a role (or may not even be healthy enough to start the year?) maybe they are the way to go in terms of finding value.

ETA: Maybe it's been mentioned but the fact that Gronk & Hern spent so much time at the WR position means that many of those receptions really were "WR" receptions, not TE plays. That bodes even better for WR's to step in and fill the void.

 
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So what do we have so far?

Danny A. + Edelman + Vereen = Welker + AHern + Gronk?

Yikes.

McDaniels has his work cut out for him.
Last year saw five rookies top the 600 yard barrier, including three over 800 yards:

Justin Blackmon - 865 yards

TY Hilton - 861 yards

Josh Gordon - 805 yards

Chris Givens - 698 yards

Kendall Wright - 626 yards

Those aren't the yardage totals you want from a dominant FF WR, but all of these rookies were major contributors right out of the box for their NFL teams.

In 2010 New England spent a 2nd rounder on Rob Gronkowski and a 4th rounder on Aaron Hernandez.

In 2013 New England spent a 2nd rounder on Aaron Dobson and a 4th rounder on Josh Boyce.

The Rams took Quick in the 2nd last year and Givens in the 4th. That duo yielded a 700 yard rookie season. The Bucs took Arrelious Benn in the 2nd and Mike Williams in the 4th in 2010. Williams had over 900 yards.

People looking at the New England WR situation as Amendola + Edelman + a bunch of scrubs are missing a huge piece of the equation. New England spent high picks on those rookies and if either or both of them are ready to contribute in year one, expect to see them on the field.
Well I guess I was literally doing the math, and I think it will definitely be worth it to people to figure it out:

Brady had 4827 yds passing in 2012.

Welker - 1354

Gronk - 790 (11 G)

Hern - 483 (10 G)

Lloyd - 911

Edelman threw in 235

The first four are 3538 of Brady's 4827

I'm guessing Danny A. gets over 1000 but does not replicate Welker's stats. That's a guess.

Weeks 10-11 Hernandez then Gronk were out and Edelman had a role to play, I guess that's what RW is leaning on. That was 5/58/1 then 2/64/1 in two blowouts, then hurt.

Even if Danny A. gets 1100 and Edelman gets 900 (huge if, let's assume health and all the rest, 50/gX16), and Gronk does what he did last year and more (say 900 in 10 G), then that still leaves a lot of territory to cover.

If Dobson and Boyce were drafted as the future, it's time to move them up in the schedule. Given the injury pasts of Amendola, Edelman, Gronk and Ballard, and the fact that maybe Edelman isn't up to such a role (or may not even be healthy enough to start the year?) maybe they are the way to go in terms of finding value.

ETA: Maybe it's been mentioned but the fact that Gronk & Hern spent so much time at the WR position means that many of those receptions really were "WR" receptions, not TE plays. That bodes even better for WR's to step in and fill the void.
Of course someone is going to pick up some stats. But I think its shortsighted to say that two rookies or "unknown at the time" players are going to step in and "fill the void" of two extremely talented players; players who gave opposing D Coordinators fits because of their mismatch capabilities.

Obviously Gronkowski is the key....but if he's missing half the season or though.....I'm thinking Bradys averaging maybe a slight tick above his 2001-2006 averages. 3500-3700 YDS and 23 to 28 TDS. Without the talent, he's in the Rivers/Big Ben group instead of at the top. The talent just isn't there on O.

 
So what do we have so far?

Danny A. + Edelman + Vereen = Welker + AHern + Gronk?

Yikes.

McDaniels has his work cut out for him.
Last year saw five rookies top the 600 yard barrier, including three over 800 yards:

Justin Blackmon - 865 yards

TY Hilton - 861 yards

Josh Gordon - 805 yards

Chris Givens - 698 yards

Kendall Wright - 626 yards

Those aren't the yardage totals you want from a dominant FF WR, but all of these rookies were major contributors right out of the box for their NFL teams.

In 2010 New England spent a 2nd rounder on Rob Gronkowski and a 4th rounder on Aaron Hernandez.

In 2013 New England spent a 2nd rounder on Aaron Dobson and a 4th rounder on Josh Boyce.

The Rams took Quick in the 2nd last year and Givens in the 4th. That duo yielded a 700 yard rookie season. The Bucs took Arrelious Benn in the 2nd and Mike Williams in the 4th in 2010. Williams had over 900 yards.

People looking at the New England WR situation as Amendola + Edelman + a bunch of scrubs are missing a huge piece of the equation. New England spent high picks on those rookies and if either or both of them are ready to contribute in year one, expect to see them on the field.
Well I guess I was literally doing the math, and I think it will definitely be worth it to people to figure it out:

Brady had 4827 yds passing in 2012.

Welker - 1354

Gronk - 790 (11 G)

Hern - 483 (10 G)

Lloyd - 911

Edelman threw in 235

The first four are 3538 of Brady's 4827

I'm guessing Danny A. gets over 1000 but does not replicate Welker's stats. That's a guess.

Weeks 10-11 Hernandez then Gronk were out and Edelman had a role to play, I guess that's what RW is leaning on. That was 5/58/1 then 2/64/1 in two blowouts, then hurt.

Even if Danny A. gets 1100 and Edelman gets 900 (huge if, let's assume health and all the rest, 50/gX16), and Gronk does what he did last year and more (say 900 in 10 G), then that still leaves a lot of territory to cover.

If Dobson and Boyce were drafted as the future, it's time to move them up in the schedule. Given the injury pasts of Amendola, Edelman, Gronk and Ballard, and the fact that maybe Edelman isn't up to such a role (or may not even be healthy enough to start the year?) maybe they are the way to go in terms of finding value.

ETA: Maybe it's been mentioned but the fact that Gronk & Hern spent so much time at the WR position means that many of those receptions really were "WR" receptions, not TE plays. That bodes even better for WR's to step in and fill the void.
Of course someone is going to pick up some stats. But I think its shortsighted to say that two rookies or "unknown at the time" players are going to step in and "fill the void" of two extremely talented players; players who gave opposing D Coordinators fits because of their mismatch capabilities.

Obviously Gronkowski is the key....but if he's missing half the season or though.....I'm thinking Bradys averaging maybe a slight tick above his 2001-2006 averages. 3500-3700 YDS and 23 to 28 TDS. Without the talent, he's in the Rivers/Big Ben group instead of at the top. The talent just isn't there on O.
Call me Captain Obvious, but how do we know how any of this guys will do when the rookies haven't played a game in the NFL yet and the imports have never played in the high octane NE offense with Tom Brady at the helm. Not sure I'd go that there is no talent on O.

 
So what do we have so far?

Danny A. + Edelman + Vereen = Welker + AHern + Gronk?

Yikes.

McDaniels has his work cut out for him.
Last year saw five rookies top the 600 yard barrier, including three over 800 yards:

Justin Blackmon - 865 yards

TY Hilton - 861 yards

Josh Gordon - 805 yards

Chris Givens - 698 yards

Kendall Wright - 626 yards

Those aren't the yardage totals you want from a dominant FF WR, but all of these rookies were major contributors right out of the box for their NFL teams.

In 2010 New England spent a 2nd rounder on Rob Gronkowski and a 4th rounder on Aaron Hernandez.

In 2013 New England spent a 2nd rounder on Aaron Dobson and a 4th rounder on Josh Boyce.

The Rams took Quick in the 2nd last year and Givens in the 4th. That duo yielded a 700 yard rookie season. The Bucs took Arrelious Benn in the 2nd and Mike Williams in the 4th in 2010. Williams had over 900 yards.

People looking at the New England WR situation as Amendola + Edelman + a bunch of scrubs are missing a huge piece of the equation. New England spent high picks on those rookies and if either or both of them are ready to contribute in year one, expect to see them on the field.
Well I guess I was literally doing the math, and I think it will definitely be worth it to people to figure it out:

Brady had 4827 yds passing in 2012.

Welker - 1354

Gronk - 790 (11 G)

Hern - 483 (10 G)

Lloyd - 911

Edelman threw in 235

The first four are 3538 of Brady's 4827

I'm guessing Danny A. gets over 1000 but does not replicate Welker's stats. That's a guess.

Weeks 10-11 Hernandez then Gronk were out and Edelman had a role to play, I guess that's what RW is leaning on. That was 5/58/1 then 2/64/1 in two blowouts, then hurt.

Even if Danny A. gets 1100 and Edelman gets 900 (huge if, let's assume health and all the rest, 50/gX16), and Gronk does what he did last year and more (say 900 in 10 G), then that still leaves a lot of territory to cover.

If Dobson and Boyce were drafted as the future, it's time to move them up in the schedule. Given the injury pasts of Amendola, Edelman, Gronk and Ballard, and the fact that maybe Edelman isn't up to such a role (or may not even be healthy enough to start the year?) maybe they are the way to go in terms of finding value.

ETA: Maybe it's been mentioned but the fact that Gronk & Hern spent so much time at the WR position means that many of those receptions really were "WR" receptions, not TE plays. That bodes even better for WR's to step in and fill the void.
Of course someone is going to pick up some stats. But I think its shortsighted to say that two rookies or "unknown at the time" players are going to step in and "fill the void" of two extremely talented players; players who gave opposing D Coordinators fits because of their mismatch capabilities.

Obviously Gronkowski is the key....but if he's missing half the season or though.....I'm thinking Bradys averaging maybe a slight tick above his 2001-2006 averages. 3500-3700 YDS and 23 to 28 TDS. Without the talent, he's in the Rivers/Big Ben group instead of at the top. The talent just isn't there on O.
Call me Captain Obvious, but how do we know how any of this guys will do when the rookies haven't played a game in the NFL yet and the imports have never played in the high octane NE offense with Tom Brady at the helm. Not sure I'd go that there is no talent on O.
By that rationale we'd dismiss ANY opinion on ANY roster change simply because we don't know. I'm going by talent....and I don't think the players that have/can be brought in will be as good as the talent that is going out. And because of that, Brady will suffer.

 
Brady had 4827 yds passing in 2012.

Welker - 1354

I'm guessing Danny A. gets over 1000 but does not replicate Welker's stats. That's a guess.
Why would you assume that amendola doesn't replicate welker's 2012 stats? The tight end were becoming a larger and larger part of the offense. Welker had 122/1569/9 in 2011, effectively a career high. That's the upside, and I don't think amendola can exceed those numbers. But its possible.

We've seen what happens when brady locks into a receiver. 100+ receptions for troy brown. A string of 100+ receptions for welker that started the year he arrived. He helped three different players set nfl records as receiving targets. And amendola had a game with 15 receptions last year, so he's no slouch.

The reports so far are that he's on the same page with amendola. That's not a report we heard much about lloyd - we heard that lloyd knew mcdaniels playbook, but not about a great rapport with brady.

If amendola can stay healthy and get bradys confidence - both of which will be overrated risks tis offseason - he can put up stud wr1 numbers, especially in ppr.

 
Brady had 4827 yds passing in 2012.

Welker - 1354

I'm guessing Danny A. gets over 1000 but does not replicate Welker's stats. That's a guess.
Why would you assume that amendola doesn't replicate welker's 2012 stats?
118 receptions is a biiiig number. 90-100? I can buy that, especially with Hernandez gone. Amendola has both upside and risk, but it's hard to call any player trying to step in for a perennial superstar like Welker a sure thing. Now that Welker's gone, I feel like Pats fans are somewhat underrating how good he is.

 
Brady had 4827 yds passing in 2012.

Welker - 1354

I'm guessing Danny A. gets over 1000 but does not replicate Welker's stats. That's a guess.
Why would you assume that amendola doesn't replicate welker's 2012 stats? The tight end were becoming a larger and larger part of the offense. Welker had 122/1569/9 in 2011, effectively a career high. That's the upside, and I don't think amendola can exceed those numbers. But its possible.

We've seen what happens when brady locks into a receiver. 100+ receptions for troy brown. A string of 100+ receptions for welker that started the year he arrived. He helped three different players set nfl records as receiving targets. And amendola had a game with 15 receptions last year, so he's no slouch.

The reports so far are that he's on the same page with amendola. That's not a report we heard much about lloyd - we heard that lloyd knew mcdaniels playbook, but not about a great rapport with brady.

If amendola can stay healthy and get bradys confidence - both of which will be overrated risks tis offseason - he can put up stud wr1 numbers, especially in ppr.
I can't speak for him, but I'm going to guess it's because Amendola isn't as good as Welker. Some may see that as a small, unimportant detail, but I've got it prioritized.

Roy Helu once had a 14 reception game which is about as impressive as Amedola's game.

Amendola has a career YPR of less than 9 whereas Welker is over 11. Maybe Amendola has better straight line speed than Welker, although we don't know this, but it is unlikely that he's as good after the catch. And while Welker was never a TD machine, he did score a TD about every 20 receptions while Amendola has been around 1 per 28.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Amendola was more Edelman than he is Welker.

 
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I think there are two things to ask: 1. Who is the WR to take the top off of the D and 2. Who gets Hernandez's WR targets?

Dobson deep and Edelman slot?

 
Brady had 4827 yds passing in 2012.

Welker - 1354

I'm guessing Danny A. gets over 1000 but does not replicate Welker's stats. That's a guess.
Why would you assume that amendola doesn't replicate welker's 2012 stats?
118 receptions is a biiiig number. 90-100? I can buy that, especially with Hernandez gone. Amendola has both upside and risk, but it's hard to call any player trying to step in for a perennial superstar like Welker a sure thing. Now that Welker's gone, I feel like Pats fans are somewhat underrating how good he is.
This isn't bout underrating welker. I think welkers a fantastic player, and I agree that he's not only better than amendola, he had a better rapport with brady. But that isn't the issue. The reason I take issue with the projections of "something less than welker in 2012" is that I think welker would do statistically better this year than he did last. Hernandez and gronk were taking a bigger and bigger share of the pie, and welker was no longer the number one look when they needed a big play. Remember the "is welker getting phased out?" talk early last season? If welker were here, I would be predicting an uptick in his numbers for a lot of reasons.

With amendola effectively replacing welker, its reasonable to expect amendola to do less than what welker would have done in 2013, and still more than what welker actually did in 2012. That's a really important point. Brady is still brady. The rookie receivers may be intelligent, but they will still struggle to be where brady wants them to be. But amendola is familiar with mcdaniels system (like lloyd but with better hands/less athleticism), and he is the only wr who can say that right now. Someone is going to get forcefed the ball, and amendola seems like the most likely person. And as I said, he had a 15 catch game, so he is more than capable of getting open consistently when forcefed.

I understand that most players don't put up biiiig numbers when they changed teams, and expecting amendola to massively improve over his career year is a lot. But tom brady is arguably the best quarterback to ever play the game. Look at welkers first year in new england. Massive improvement, over 100 receptions. And that was with moss, who also had a career year, the same year, and set an nfl record to boot.

Look at gronkowski. Not only did he put up double digit touchdowns as a rookie te, in his second season, he set an nfl record.

Look at troy brown. He has 210 receptions in the first eight years of his career. In 2000, he put up 83 - a career high. In 2001, with tom brady, he put up 101 receptions for 1199 yards and 5 tds, while splitting time as a returner.

A lot of people got burnt last year thinking lloyd would be that guy, but the logic was terrible. People thought that lloyd was a 1000 yard receiver who would demand catches in this offense. Instead they should have seen the truth, which is that he was never going to be the top target of brady, or even a top three target.

The amendola situation is exactly the opposite. Amendola is likely to be the number one target, or at least one of the top targets. That automatically puts him in the 100 reception range if healthy, and possibly much higher. Look at marshall with cutler, decker with manning, lance moore whenever colston gets hurt, and of course welker and troy brown with brady. Amendolas upside is all about the opportunity.

 
I've always felt that Hernandez was over-rated, and that it was due, in large part, to being coupled in with Gronkowski, who is a truly elite, all-time player. In a strangely similar way, I think Gronkowski is now being under-rated in 2013 because of Hernandez. It's easy to talk as if the Patriots are going to be without both TE's, but people have lost sight of the fact that Gronkowski may not miss any time at all. The most reasonable worst case scenario is that he misses 6 games on the PUP, but even playing 10 games puts him in the same area of how much he played last night.

Gronkowski has a good chance of being there for the majority of the season in my opinion.

I don't think anyone "steps in" to the "Hernandez role." The team will simply change their offensive approach. They will still run some two-TE sets in my opinion (when Gronkowski is playing), just not nearly as much. Hernandez was mostly a WR anyway. The real players that will benefit from Hernandez's absence are those that will be on the field more because the Patriots are fielding an extra WR instead of a TE.

To me, it's too early to know who that is, which is of course why this is a thread. Personally, I'm just grabbing one or two and viewing them as a lottery ricket. A healthy Edelman would be my far and away #2 WR (behind Amendola) but he's simply not healthy. I'd still give him the edge all else being equal:

1) Edelman

2) Dobson

3) Jones

4) Boyce

5) the rest

 
Dobson deep and Edelman slot?
Edelman and Amendola could both play on the outside, if both of them are healthy, which given their history would be on the same scale of all of the planets in the Milky Way lining up at the same time.

Dobson is the only potential "top off the defense" guy, but it's only potential, and even if he does carve out that role, it doesn't mean it's a fantasy producer.

 
Here's my prediction of what happens: Nothing in 2013. He'll be arrested for Obstruction, post bail, and the attorneys will go back and forth throughout the season and set a trial date for early 2014. Depending on the results of that trial he may face suspension. The difference between this and the prior incidents is (1) he hasn't showed a pattern of behavior and arrests like Jones and Henry and (2) the Roethlisberger action came AFTER the Georgia DA decided not to prosecute. In the former instance, Roger was addressing a pattern of behavior and trying to stop it. In the latter, Roger was addressing an instance that had a lot of publicity and negatively affected the league image. At a minimum he'll wait until charges are brought against Hernandez. And I imagine he'll wait until the proceedings conclude because he's smart enough to know that suspending him for 2, 4, 6, 16 games and then Hernandez being acquitted is bad for business as well.
Ha.

 
Agree with what people say about NE system being difficult for players to learn. There have been players that looked good in college and couldn't learn the NE system. Not sure we will ever be able to predict if a player is going to work for NE.

This is probably the reason NE has had trouble drafting WR's. Too many morons in the WR pool.
I think the issue is that more than other teams, NE's offense is filled with hot reads based on how defenses line up, where defenders move to in the middle of plays, and WR are required to know that there could be 6 different routes they could run as a play is developing . . . and that's not even an audibled play at the line of scrimmage. I'm guessing most college defenses are not that sophisticated, so the challenge becomes finding guys that are smart enough to understand what they have to do, are quick on their feet, and are athletic enough to compete in the NFL.
The NE offense is definitely complicated, but at the same time, none of the guys the Patriots have drafted have gone on to do squat on other teams. So there's definitely also a talent evaluation problem there. Tate, Price, Chad Jackson, all busts, regardless of where they went.

 
Dobson deep and Edelman slot?
Edelman and Amendola could both play on the outside, if both of them are healthy, which given their history would be on the same scale of all of the planets in the Milky Way lining up at the same time.

Dobson is the only potential "top off the defense" guy, but it's only potential, and even if he does carve out that role, it doesn't mean it's a fantasy producer.
Boyce ran 4.38 at the combine and jumped 10'11" in the broad jump. Dobson is a better jump ball receiver, but I think Boyce has more sheer vertical explosiveness.

The college stats seem to support this as well. Boyce had a higher yards per catch each of the past three seasons.

Boyce's ability to play in the slot or outside and work the short/intermediate/deep routes is what makes him such an interesting chess piece for this offense.

He can really do a little bit of everything and I think that versatility is going to serve him well here.

 
gotta think that Edelman will get 1st crack at additional playing time but the offense is going to need a face lift. Even if they trade for another teams TE3 or 4 or pick up a guy on their last legs it won't be the same as a 23 year old hernandez back there. Edelman knows the system which is very hard to learn, but he doesn't offer the same skill set. Josh Boyce maybe be able to over take Edelman once he gets the hang of the offense. Don't sleep on Donald Jones neither.

 
Dobson deep and Edelman slot?
Edelman and Amendola could both play on the outside, if both of them are healthy, which given their history would be on the same scale of all of the planets in the Milky Way lining up at the same time.

Dobson is the only potential "top off the defense" guy, but it's only potential, and even if he does carve out that role, it doesn't mean it's a fantasy producer.
Boyce ran 4.38 at the combine and jumped 10'11" in the broad jump. Dobson is a better jump ball receiver, but I think Boyce has more sheer vertical explosiveness.

The college stats seem to support this as well. Boyce had a higher yards per catch each of the past three seasons.

Boyce's ability to play in the slot or outside and work the short/intermediate/deep routes is what makes him such an interesting chess piece for this offense.

He can really do a little bit of everything and I think that versatility is going to serve him well here.
is he smart? what was his wonderlic? Is he football smart? The learning curve is steep in NE, wonder if they might have to "dumb-down" the offense this year given whats going on.

 
Dobson deep and Edelman slot?
Edelman and Amendola could both play on the outside, if both of them are healthy, which given their history would be on the same scale of all of the planets in the Milky Way lining up at the same time.

Dobson is the only potential "top off the defense" guy, but it's only potential, and even if he does carve out that role, it doesn't mean it's a fantasy producer.
Boyce ran 4.38 at the combine and jumped 10'11" in the broad jump. Dobson is a better jump ball receiver, but I think Boyce has more sheer vertical explosiveness.

The college stats seem to support this as well. Boyce had a higher yards per catch each of the past three seasons.

Boyce's ability to play in the slot or outside and work the short/intermediate/deep routes is what makes him such an interesting chess piece for this offense.

He can really do a little bit of everything and I think that versatility is going to serve him well here.
is he smart? what was his wonderlic? Is he football smart? The learning curve is steep in NE, wonder if they might have to "dumb-down" the offense this year given whats going on.
Gronk and hernandez learned the O during their rookie yr and their not the smartest guys

 
Dobson deep and Edelman slot?
Edelman and Amendola could both play on the outside, if both of them are healthy, which given their history would be on the same scale of all of the planets in the Milky Way lining up at the same time.

Dobson is the only potential "top off the defense" guy, but it's only potential, and even if he does carve out that role, it doesn't mean it's a fantasy producer.
Boyce ran 4.38 at the combine and jumped 10'11" in the broad jump. Dobson is a better jump ball receiver, but I think Boyce has more sheer vertical explosiveness.

The college stats seem to support this as well. Boyce had a higher yards per catch each of the past three seasons.

Boyce's ability to play in the slot or outside and work the short/intermediate/deep routes is what makes him such an interesting chess piece for this offense.

He can really do a little bit of everything and I think that versatility is going to serve him well here.
is he smart? what was his wonderlic? Is he football smart? The learning curve is steep in NE, wonder if they might have to "dumb-down" the offense this year given whats going on.
By Greg A. Bedard, Globe Staff

FOXBOROUGH -- A few nuggets and thoughts on the Patriots' fourth-round selection:

WR Josh Boyce, TCU

  • Junior entry
  • 5-11, 206 pounds, 4.38 in the 40 (tied for third highest at combine)
  • 31 1/4-inch arms, 9 1/4-inch hands, 34-inch vertical, 4.10 short shuttle (good), 6.68 three-cone (great), 22 bench (great);
  • Caught passes from Andy Dalton at TCU, and was a high school teammate of Robert Griffin III;
  • Tied for second-highest among receivers this year with a Wonderlic score of 23. That's the highest known Patriots score since Deion Branch (26) in 2002;
  • Led team with 66 receptions for 891 yards and seven touchdowns;
  • Has lined up in various spots, including running back.
His high school coach:

“It’s hard to put into words. I coached RG3 and Charles Tillman as high schoolers. And I can tell you that Josh Boyce is a phenom. He’s a freak. An athletic freak. But when you put that personality in that body, along with that great attitude, you have a winner. He’s never missed a workout, as far as I know. Never.”

Welch said the 5-foot-11, 203-pound Boyce was ticketed for success at an early age because of a great work ethic and boundless physical skill. That physical prowess was on display in February at the combine — despite the fact he was dealing with the fallout from a right foot injury, he was the only receiver to rank in the top four in the 40 (4.38) and bench press (22 reps). In addition, he finished in the top four among receivers in five out of the seven main categories (40, bench press, broad jump, 3-cone drill and 60-yard shuffle).

“You never know if a kid is going to make it in the NFL, because there are so many good young players who don’t. It’s like a needle in a haystack. Going in, you have to have that ability and physical skill just to have a chance,” Welch said. “With Josh, it was clear he had that ability as part of his athletic talent. You know he’s strong — he can bench press the world, but you don’t get strong overnight. You have to work at it, and he does.

“I’ve seen a lot of kids with great talent, but I’ve seen very few that had the talent, plus the attitude and personality of a servant — someone who is a hard-working leader that shows something special. That’s Josh.”
 
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I have the feeling that New England will make some sort of moves before the season starts to bring in some people and that a lot of the names talked about right now will slide down the depth chart. Of course we can only really discuss who is on the roster now, I just won't be very surprised if they make some moves to add a productive veteran or two.

The have for a while managed to stockpile picks and depth and if they determine these young guys aren't ready I think they shift gears and trade some future picks or a guy like Mallet for some help. Maybe even a guy like Laurent Robinson gets healthy and gets a look. maybe a team like Green Bay decides to move on from Finley for a pick or Fred Davis looks healthy and Washington moves him for a pick?

I just think this receiver group is going to look pretty different by week 1.

 
It helps the NE running game and kills Brady. Who's scared of that O without Gronk and Hernandez?
31 other teams.
Meh...haven't been too scared to lose to them when it counts for the past 9 years!.
As I mentioned in another thread, the last two seasons that Brady, BB, and OC McDaniels were together NE put up 589 and 557 points. The only two skilled position players that were on both teams were Brady and Welker. People thinking that the Patriots offense will turn into the sisters of the poor will be sadly mistaken. The Pats could score 125 fewer points and still remain in the Top 5 in the league in scoring.
Theswe guys being together means very little.

07 had Randy Moss to tilt coverage to his side. Troy Brown knew the system and had Brady's trust. Gaffney and Stalworth added some during the season and would be a little better than the options they have this year. Maroney was on this team having young fresh legs and Kevin Faulk was coming out of the backfield making plays with his juice.

2012 had Gronk and Hernandez for teams to focus each time they were on the field, even thought they had been injured. Branch and Loyd both knew the sytem and could be counted to be in the right spot. Ridley, Vereen, Woodhead and Bolden all stepped up for the team out of the backfield at times.

Welker and Bradyy are the common link on the field but there was a ton of help that got those points on the board. Welker has always been helped by having teams looking at other guys to cover than him. This year if Gronk doesnt come back this team might still win but it could very easily go back to running the ball and playing tough D to win games. I dont see this being a offensive team like we have seen in the past 5 years or so.

 
I've been picking up Donald Jones for free in some of my leagues that expand rosters in offseason. If he doesn't show anything, I'll cut him. Worth a flier IMO.

 
Brady is the type of qb that could make just about an average wr very good. I think the wr to benefit is Edelman when he's healthy but if Dobson or Boyce show that they are capable of handling their routes they will earn a good amount of playing time it will be interesting. Lets not forget that Jenkins was drafted in the first round of the draft bye the falcons some years ago. A receiver with good athletic potential no matter how old might be exactly what the pats need.

 
The Patriots had both Gronk and Hernandez healthy for Weeks 1, 6, and 7 last season (@TEN, @SEA, NYJ). In all three weeks, they scored below 34.8 ppg, their season average. The notion that they racked up 557 points by exploiting double-TE matchups all 2012 is a complete myth.

 
The Patriots had both Gronk and Hernandez healthy for Weeks 1, 6, and 7 last season (@TEN, @SEA, NYJ). In all three weeks, they scored below 34.8 ppg, their season average. The notion that they racked up 557 points by exploiting double-TE matchups all 2012 is a complete myth.
:goodposting:
 
Since I had heard so much talk of the Pats' offense being projected to fall apart with AH being the straw that boke the camel's back, I decided to look up how NE did WITHOUT Hernandez playing. Here's what I found . . .

In 10 games without AH playing over the past 3 years, the Pats averaged 38.3 ppg and 444 yards of offense per game. They scored at least 30 points in every game and also had 45, 52, and 59 points without Hernandez.

In the 38 games Hernandez did play in, the offense averaged 31.6 ppg and 397 yards of offense per game.

In the main, I don't think the Pats offense gets better by not having Hernandez off the team, but it certainly does not appear that they missed him all that much when he wasn't playing.

Similarly, I don't think the Pats will take their best player (Brady) and have him hand the ball off all day long because there are new bodies to throw to (as some people have suggested). I still think the Pats will throw a ton . . . they may just have more incompletions to show for it this year.

 
The Patriots ran the ball 523 times last season. Hard to run much more than that. What is impressive is the volume of plays being run in the hurry up while at the same time not neglecting the running game.

 
Since I had heard so much talk of the Pats' offense being projected to fall apart with AH being the straw that boke the camel's back, I decided to look up how NE did WITHOUT Hernandez playing. Here's what I found . . .

In 10 games without AH playing over the past 3 years, the Pats averaged 38.3 ppg and 444 yards of offense per game. They scored at least 30 points in every game and also had 45, 52, and 59 points without Hernandez.

In the 38 games Hernandez did play in, the offense averaged 31.6 ppg and 397 yards of offense per game.

In the main, I don't think the Pats offense gets better by not having Hernandez off the team, but it certainly does not appear that they missed him all that much when he wasn't playing.

Similarly, I don't think the Pats will take their best player (Brady) and have him hand the ball off all day long because there are new bodies to throw to (as some people have suggested). I still think the Pats will throw a ton . . . they may just have more incompletions to show for it this year.
How have they done without AH, Gronk, Welker, and Woodhead? Generally losing 1 player at any time is easy to overcome. Losing pretty much all of his weapons at the same time is what is worrisome. You can even throw Lloyd in there if you want.

 
Since I had heard so much talk of the Pats' offense being projected to fall apart with AH being the straw that boke the camel's back, I decided to look up how NE did WITHOUT Hernandez playing. Here's what I found . . .

In 10 games without AH playing over the past 3 years, the Pats averaged 38.3 ppg and 444 yards of offense per game. They scored at least 30 points in every game and also had 45, 52, and 59 points without Hernandez.

In the 38 games Hernandez did play in, the offense averaged 31.6 ppg and 397 yards of offense per game.

In the main, I don't think the Pats offense gets better by not having Hernandez off the team, but it certainly does not appear that they missed him all that much when he wasn't playing.

Similarly, I don't think the Pats will take their best player (Brady) and have him hand the ball off all day long because there are new bodies to throw to (as some people have suggested). I still think the Pats will throw a ton . . . they may just have more incompletions to show for it this year.
How have they done without AH, Gronk, Welker, and Woodhead? Generally losing 1 player at any time is easy to overcome. Losing pretty much all of his weapons at the same time is what is worrisome. You can even throw Lloyd in there if you want.
excellent point, Ahern was the last piece from last yrs Passing offense that was still intact. To not expect a drop in production is a little short sighted

 
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I think it is short sighted to automatically assume that because of not having Hernandez and Lloyd the passing offense will decline. It is short sighted to not look at the history of the Patriots passing offense and all of the moving pieces they have had during Bradys time there.

About the only constants were Brown, then Branch before Welker. Getting Moss certainly put the offense on a whole other level in 2007 and people including Anarchy were expecting some decline then in 2008 as 2007 was some kind of career year, which it was, Brady had 69% completion rate on 578 throws and 50TD. The offense did decline because Brady was injured. Matt Cassell made a career for himself in relief and the passing offense was still pretty good 516pa 3693yds 21TD. That is a far cry from 4800 and 50 for sure but not the end of the world. So in some ways I think they will be fine even without Brady.

2009 Brady returned to 565pa 65.7 completion rate 4398yds 28TD still with Welker and Moss.

2010 Moss left and the passing game did decline. Brady 492pa 65.9 completion rate 3900yds 36TD. However as Anarchy already pointed out the dip had more to do with the decline on defense than the offense.

2008 defense gives up 268 1st downs. 2009 defense gives up 289 1st downs. 2010 defense gives up 348 1st downs. That is 59 more 1st downs than the season before and that is over 150 more plays being given up to opposing offenses than they were before.

Now the defense does not improve from 2010 moving forward. 2011 they give up 370 1st downs. 2012 they improved on this to 340 1st downs. Those are all in about the same range near 350 1st downs. However the offense exploded in 2011 again. How can this be?

2011 Tom Brady 611pa 65.6 completion rate 5235yds 39TD. This is actually getting back close to the 2007 career numbers. The defense did not play better so how did the offense increase it's plays?

2012 Tom Brady 637pa 63 completion rate 4827yds 34TD. The Patriots running more hurry up offense managed to add another 70 rushing attempts and a few passing attempts as well with some slight improvement from the defense on 1st downs allowed.

So in the long view why should we automatically assume that the Patriots passing offense will decline? It is so sky high I think that certainly is possible, but I am not totally sure it could not still go up as well. The drop in completion percentage last season is a sign that worries me and should be something the Patriots are looking to improve on if they intend to keep throwing somewhere around 600 times a season.

 
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I think it is short sighted to automatically assume that because of not having Hernandez and Lloyd the passing offense will decline. It is short sighted to not look at the history of the Patriots passing offense and all of the moving pieces they have had during Bradys time there.

About the only constants were Brown, then Branch before Welker. Getting Moss certainly put the offense on a whole other level in 2007 and people including Anarchy were expecting some decline then in 2008 as 2007 was some kind of career year, which it was, Brady had 69% completion rate on 578 throws and 50TD. The offense did decline because Brady was injured. Matt Cassell made a career for himself in relief and the passing offense was still pretty good 516pa 3693yds 21TD. That is a far cry from 4800 and 50 for sure but not the end of the world. So in some ways I think they will be fine even without Brady.

2009 Brady returned to 565pa 65.7 completion rate 4398yds 28TD still with Welker and Moss.

2010 Moss left and the passing game did decline. Brady 492pa 65.9 completion rate 3900yds 36TD. However as Anarchy already pointed out the dip had more to do with the decline on defense than the offense.

2008 defense gives up 268 1st downs. 2009 defense gives up 289 1st downs. 2010 defense gives up 348 1st downs. That is 59 more 1st downs than the season before and that is over 150 more plays being given up to opposing offenses than they were before.

Now the defense does not improve from 2010 moving forward. 2011 they give up 370 1st downs. 2012 they improved on this to 340 1st downs. Those are all in about the same range near 350 1st downs. However the offense exploded in 2011 again. How can this be?

2011 Tom Brady 611pa 65.6 completion rate 5235yds 39TD. This is actually getting back close to the 2007 career numbers. The defense did not play better so how did the offense increase it's plays?

2012 Tom Brady 637pa 63 completion rate 4827yds 34TD. The Patriots running more hurry up offense managed to add another 70 rushing attempts and a few passing attempts as well with some slight improvement from the defense on 1st downs allowed.

So in the long view why should we automatically assume that the Patriots passing offense will decline? It is so sky high I think that certainly is possible, but I am not totally sure it could not still go up as well. The drop in completion percentage last season is a sign that worries me and should be something the Patriots are looking to improve on if they intend to keep throwing somewhere around 600 times a season.
Yet again, 2 players. They lost 4 skill players that were all starters and Woodhead who was his pass catching RB. I'm assuming Gronk is out for at least 6 games recovering from his back surgery.

 
In 2007 the Patriots turned over most of their starters also, only retaining Kevin Faulk, Ben Watson and Jabar Gaffney from the season before. They added 2 players through trades, Wes Welker and Randy Moss.

No mas Moss here is the main element I see missing, yet Brady has been on pace with his career year numbers without Moss since then, Amendola may replace Welker fine. Hernandez besides 2011 did not really have numbers that are hard to replace. The TDs were mostly to the TE so a new RZ option needs to be found but the other production is not that hard to replace. Lloyd was one of those replacements himself. If the Patriots do not add another receiving option, then they must be happy with what they have. I do think Dobson could be useful in the RZ with his size and leaping ability.

 
Since I had heard so much talk of the Pats' offense being projected to fall apart with AH being the straw that boke the camel's back, I decided to look up how NE did WITHOUT Hernandez playing. Here's what I found . . .

In 10 games without AH playing over the past 3 years, the Pats averaged 38.3 ppg and 444 yards of offense per game. They scored at least 30 points in every game and also had 45, 52, and 59 points without Hernandez.

In the 38 games Hernandez did play in, the offense averaged 31.6 ppg and 397 yards of offense per game.

In the main, I don't think the Pats offense gets better by not having Hernandez off the team, but it certainly does not appear that they missed him all that much when he wasn't playing.

Similarly, I don't think the Pats will take their best player (Brady) and have him hand the ball off all day long because there are new bodies to throw to (as some people have suggested). I still think the Pats will throw a ton . . . they may just have more incompletions to show for it this year.
How have they done without AH, Gronk, Welker, and Woodhead? Generally losing 1 player at any time is easy to overcome. Losing pretty much all of his weapons at the same time is what is worrisome. You can even throw Lloyd in there if you want.
excellent point, Ahern was the last piece from last yrs Passing offense that was still intact. To not expect a drop in production is a little short sighted
Here's the thing. Once Brady honed his craft, the Pats have reinvented themselves on offense several times, and each step along the way made some significant changes. From a passing perspective, NE over the years went from a find-the-open-man approach to more of a ground and pound with some deeper routes to the dink and dunk with bubble screens to shock and awe with Moss and Welker to a 2 TE set to the hurry up to whatever is next.

I tend to believe BB that the slot receiver in the NE offense will be money no matter who it is. So while technically they will not have Welker, they will have someone very similar. Troy Brown caught a zillion balls before Welker did and Edelman stepped in when needed and all those guys were very productive without the offense skipping a beat.

After the disappointing loss to IND in the 2006 AFCC, the Pats retooled their receiving corps. We all know how that tuned out, but at the time people were saying they were nuts to go after a washed up prima donna in Moss and trading a 2nd and 7th for some kid very view had heard of named Welker. They also added Stallworth, who several people questioned whether he was a fit. They also retained Gaffney, who was added late in the season the season before but who was left for dead after a previously disappointing career until then. At the time, fans in NE thought BB had lost his mind.

As the years progressed, Deion Branch was added to the mix, who more than a step, but still was able to be productive despite having limited skills. They also dumped Moss, and the huge majority said the Pats had no deep threat and the offense was doomed. Then they added Lloyd, who was mostly a pedestrian receiver that happened to have struck lightning in a bottle one season in DEN.

For years the Pats seemingly ignored the TE spot, then they added Gronk and Hernandez and both became big cogs to the offense. They also seamlessly transitioned from Faulk to Woodhead and now Vereen.

So sure, the names will be different, but for the most part the composition of the team will be mostly similar in terms of how people play, their roles, and how they fit. Ballard fills a role similar to Gronk, and he will likely fill the Gronk void (albeit not at the same level) until Gronk gets back. At this point, I don't see how anyone could suggest Vereen cannot replicate what Woodhead did. Amendola should be able to produce similar to what Brown and Welker did before him (maybe not quite as high but in the realm). Gronk may miss a few games, but it's not like he is gone for the season.

Realistically, whoever fills the roles of Branch or Lloyd is still up in the air but not exactly essential either. NE normally had another receiver in the 800-900 yard range not named Welker, and someone could emerge as that guy whether that be Edelman, Dobson, Boyce, or one of the retreads.

So sure, Brady could see his numbers drop some. Maybe he won't throw for 5000/35. Maybe he dips to 4300/30. But the offense should still be one of the best in the league even if the totals are lower than the past few seasons. To listen to some folks, they have the Pats potentially as a Bottom 10 offense based on how they are describing the offense.

 
Nice post Anarchy. Kind of what I was trying to say but better. :)

One thing though about Emperor Palpatine. He was a TE when he played and his 1st coaching was special teams, TE/WR under Ted Marchibroda. Then he worked for Parcells and was the LB coach. He is also known for having LB play TE if needed for example Mike Vrabel in goal line packages caught 10 TD over his career.

Patriots drafting TE position

2011 Lee Smith 5th round

2010 Rob Gronkowski 2nd round
2010 Aaron Hernandez 4th round

2006 David Thomas 3rd round

2005 Andy Stokes 7th round

2004 Ben Watson 1st round (pick 32)

2002 Daniel Graham 1st round (pick 21)

2001 Jabari Holloway 4th round

2000 Dave Stachelski 5th round

I got a strong impression from the early picks of Graham and Watson, early on in Bills coaching of the Pats. 1st round picks on that position within 2 years from each other shows some heavy valuation of the TE position. Then in 2006 the Patriots took David Thomas 3rd round further cementing how important the position is to what they want to do on offense. Watson perhaps never reached the potential they hoped for from him, but he still has had a pretty good career. So I see those 4 years between 2006 and 2010 as mostly letting those 2 guys play. The Patriots also traded out of a lot of their 1st round picks in those years between 2007-2008 In 2009 they had 4 2nd round picks and 2 3rd round picks but didn't draft a TE. They did take Tate with their last 3rd round pick in 2009.

What about Lee Smith? Is he still with the team?
 
I think it is short sighted to automatically assume that because of not having Hernandez and Lloyd the passing offense will decline. It is short sighted to not look at the history of the Patriots passing offense and all of the moving pieces they have had during Bradys time there.

About the only constants were Brown, then Branch before Welker. Getting Moss certainly put the offense on a whole other level in 2007 and people including Anarchy were expecting some decline then in 2008 as 2007 was some kind of career year, which it was, Brady had 69% completion rate on 578 throws and 50TD. The offense did decline because Brady was injured. Matt Cassell made a career for himself in relief and the passing offense was still pretty good 516pa 3693yds 21TD. That is a far cry from 4800 and 50 for sure but not the end of the world. So in some ways I think they will be fine even without Brady.

2009 Brady returned to 565pa 65.7 completion rate 4398yds 28TD still with Welker and Moss.

2010 Moss left and the passing game did decline. Brady 492pa 65.9 completion rate 3900yds 36TD. However as Anarchy already pointed out the dip had more to do with the decline on defense than the offense.

2008 defense gives up 268 1st downs. 2009 defense gives up 289 1st downs. 2010 defense gives up 348 1st downs. That is 59 more 1st downs than the season before and that is over 150 more plays being given up to opposing offenses than they were before.

Now the defense does not improve from 2010 moving forward. 2011 they give up 370 1st downs. 2012 they improved on this to 340 1st downs. Those are all in about the same range near 350 1st downs. However the offense exploded in 2011 again. How can this be?

2011 Tom Brady 611pa 65.6 completion rate 5235yds 39TD. This is actually getting back close to the 2007 career numbers. The defense did not play better so how did the offense increase it's plays?

2012 Tom Brady 637pa 63 completion rate 4827yds 34TD. The Patriots running more hurry up offense managed to add another 70 rushing attempts and a few passing attempts as well with some slight improvement from the defense on 1st downs allowed.

So in the long view why should we automatically assume that the Patriots passing offense will decline? It is so sky high I think that certainly is possible, but I am not totally sure it could not still go up as well. The drop in completion percentage last season is a sign that worries me and should be something the Patriots are looking to improve on if they intend to keep throwing somewhere around 600 times a season.
Remember Brady's numbers before they had players like Randy Moss and Wes Welker, it really wasn't a power house for FF stats.

 
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That is true and there have been reasons and arguments for why those passing numbers would decline in subsequent years after they lost Moss, and there was some decline in 2010 as the offense was adjusting. But then with entirely different personel the passing offense rose back to similar levels in 2011-2012 as 2007. Less efficient and less TD but more plays overall even though Moss was no longer there.

Welker is a great player too and no doubt he will be missed. But Amendola and some combination of the other slot WR they have should be able to replace that production.

While it is almost a given that the Patriots passing offense will regress somewhat this season simply because they set a new record for total offensive plays in 2012 with 1191 total plays.

I still expect the Patriots passing offense to be closer to 2012 levels in pass attempts, possibly fewer rushing attempts as 500 is a lot for any team, but maybe not. At least closer to last year than pre 2007 level when some still considered Brady a game manager only type QB because he had not had any huge weapons to work with in the passing game yet. I think Brady is a better player than he was in those early years and the offense is much less conservative now than it was back then when they had a stronger defense.

 
Put me in the camp that thinks NE offense will regress some and the passing game in particular will be less potent, with more emphasis on running. You can't just assume that these unknown players and retreads will be able to get what Welker and Hernandez got and Gronk have gotten (and yes, I am in the camp that says Gronk will be out at least 4-6 weeks).

 

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