New FFL League Rules - Feedback Please (1 Viewer)

[VintageGold]

Our league has had two franchise players and a snake draft for the last near-decade. You could keep your franchise player for an unlimited amount of years, meaning if you do not give up your Emmitt Smith, you can keep him as long as you like.

During this past offseason a discussion took place among owners who have finished mid-to last-place for several years. They observed that the top three had finished in the top three for two consecutive years. Their argument was the following:

A snake draft style combined with unlimited franchise players benefits the top finishers.

The logic they gave is that the top finishers tend to have top players, and being at the tail end of the draft, thus getting two consecutive quality players, the draft is unintentionally rigged to benefit the top finishers. There is some merit to this logic.

One factor that was not brought into the discussion is the skill of some team owners. FFL is partly a luck game, but also partly a skill game. It was not brought up as a possible reason for the consistent top finishes, even with the help of the system, because it is a sensitive topic.

So several options were discussed. Reducing the Franchise Players to one player, changing from a snake-style draft to an NFL-Style draft with two franchise players, and limiting the number of years a franchise player can be kept.

We had several lengthy email and in-person discussions (probably more appropriate to call them arguments) about this. Several scenarios came up that sounded enticing, such as an optional Franchise Player (FP) NFL-Style draft that would enable top finishers to decide not to keep top quality players for the chance to grab a better quality player by giving up their 2nd FP for a 2nd round pick. (Example, instead of keeping Terrell Owens as your second FP, you can give up TO for a chance to pick what has been given up by others for your second round pick. Others who keep their second FP cannot make second round picks, they must wait until the third round before drafting).

Unfortunately, I missed the meeting where they voted on this issue due to a family emergency. When they announced the result of the vote, I was flabbergasted. They approved the following system (which bascially adopts all of the rules proposed by the mid- to last-place finishing teams and none of the compromises from the more conservative top-three finishing teams):

One Franchise Player

Franchise player limited to two consecutive years (trading to a team and back during the same season not permitted)

NFL-Style draft

I just examined the rules and its implications. My initial observation is that it could heavily favor the last place teams (which pick first) for the next season they play in. This system could lead to a cycle where the last place teams would jump to first place (and thus the last pick in the next year) and the first place teams could fall to last due to the weak draft spot (and thus have the first pick in the following year).

Admittely being biased, it would help a lot if you, FBGs, can offer your analysis on the pre-rule change rationale and whether or not my prediction for the following seasons with the new rules could be accurate or off-base?

Logicical discussions would be most appreciated.

 

[Sigfawn]

I'd have to agree with them.

If you're going to order the draft based on worst to first, that implies you're trying to help the teams who finished poorly.

A snake draft means ever spot in equal in theory. And if you take out the top 10-20 players, then it's very equal.

So yes, an NFL style draft would help the teams who finished poorly. If that's the goal of your draft. You could just do it NFL style for the first 2-3-4 rounds. Which works too.

 

[tomarken]

I wouldn't underestimate the "skill" factor, sensitive as it may be to the consistent bottom-finishers. I think it probably has a lot more to do with it than they'd like to admit.

I'm in a league very similar to your description (we have more than 2 keepers, but there is no time limit on keepers, and we use a snake draft) that has been going since 1991. I would have to say that the skill level of all the owners is fairly even. There have been stretches of years where the same couple of teams finished near the top in consecutive years, but for the most part things have averaged out as you would expect them to.

How many teams are in your league? Mine is a 12-team league, so there is a lot of parity. In a 8- or 10- team league it might be easier to win on a consistent basis.

A lot of it comes down to smart drafting, and patience. I mean, I can guarantee that all of the bottom teams from your league in 2004 got a fair shot at Larry Johnson in your 2005 draft. If they don't have him, they shouldn't try to cripple the owner that does.

If your league really is set on switching the rules, I have to say that I don't like the idea of an NFL-style draft, I think it's too harsh on the good teams. In the long run, assuming the skill levels of the owners are equal, fantasy football is naturally cyclical. You shouldn't have to force a cycle of bad teams getting better and good teams getting worse.

I'm also not a fan of putting limits on keepers. One of my favorite strategies is building a franchise for the future. I might go 3-4 years where I basically forego a shot at the playoffs just to build a young talented core, adding 1 or 2 players each year. I'll trade players and/or picks in this year's draft, just to get draft picks for next year. It's all about patience. And if I go to the trouble of drafting sleepers and prospects, and I happen to land the next Larry Johnson, I certainly don't want to have to give him up after 2 years.

I can, however, support the idea of giving up compensation for your two franchise players. If you happen to have LaDainian Tomlinson and Shaun Alexander and you want to keep them forever, you have every right to do so, but it will cost you every year (high draft picks for example). Just like the NFL, if you want to hold on to your stud players, you have to pay a lot. This will give the bad teams a better shot to catch up in the draft. With each team only keeping two players, there should be enough talent in the draft to go around so that they shouldn't be consistently bad year after year.

Unless they're just not good at fantasy football. But that's a sensitive topic.

 

[Thoriniii]

You could go to an auction format. Each manager would then have an equal oppotunity to obtain any given non-keeper. If going to an auction is objectionable, you can try what we use. We are allowed one keeper each year. The keeper counts as a draft pick, one round higher than drafted the previous year, minimum of a fifth round pick.

This works ok, but I would like to see a change. I drafted Willie Parker in the 15th, this year he counts as a 5th, next year a 4th, etc. I would rahter see the player drop 2-3rounds per year, starting where he was drafted. The system we use, favors keeping the very best players, and those players can be kept for 5-years (Shaun Alexander is a 5-year keeper). My system would promote (I think) looking more at new talent, while turning over the known talent more often.

Of course change in my league is difficult, and so I am left hoping for changes, rather than rather than keeping Willie as a 12th this year.

 

[Capt Hook]

Your league should never reward a team for finishing in LAST place.

How many teams are in the money?

Or is it a playoff system?

Whatever the number of teams in the money/playoffs, the 1st pick in the following years draft should go to the next team and then procede down from there:

For instance: 12 team, 3 divisions, top team in each division plus wild card with best record or most points - those four go to the playoffs

Following year's draft should be

1st - 5th place

2nd - 6th place

3rd - 7th place

4th - 8th place

5th - 9th place

6th - 10th place

7th - 11th place

8th - 12th place

9th- 4th place

10th - 3rd place

11th - 2nd place

12th - 1st place

You want teams to compete and try hard ALL year - want all of them trying to reach the playoffs or try for best draft pick. This doesn't mean that a team that had crippling injuries can't make a trade for a better franchise player(s), but you don't want them to just give up and mail it in the following year.

As far as the franchise players, it would be perfectly logical and I think easy to sell that the four teams in the playoffs are limited to just one franchise player, but all the rest of the teams could have two.

 

[Cixelsyd]

For the draft order... we do a loser bowl to fight for the top 6 spots.... so teams have to stay involved during the season and playoffs...

The winner of the loser bowl gets first... loser gets 6th....

Pick 7 goes to the 6th place team in the regular playoffs.... pick 12 to the 1st place team

Once the pick order is set, we also let the teams, starting at pick 1, select their actual draft order.... usually the top 5 stay.... but pick 6 could drop to 12 if he wishes...

As for keepers... we don't allow any player drafted in the first 3 rounds to be kept...

You can keep up to 3 players at a cost of the round they were drafted in - 2 and you can keep them for 3 years...

 

[VintageGold]

Tom Marken,

Thanks for your response, you clearly understand the situation that we face.

My league is a 8-team league, so you are right, it is easier to win on a consistent basis.

I first entered this keeper (and ppr) league two years ago, inheriting the last place team with virtually no players that were even worthy of the franchise player tag, but I had to keep two anyway. I heard enough throughout the season of "rookie" and "rookie mistakes", only to finish in second, much to the dismay of many and a gem keeper in Shaun Alexander. The first place finisher had Tomlinson. The second year (last season) I finished second again to the Tomlinson owner, and our second RBs are Larry Johnson and LaMont Jordan respectively. This started the grumblings where many owners used our FPs as reasons why the system doesn't work.

The skill level in our league is not VERY disproportionate, but there are stretches of good decision and sometimes luck, which landed me and the first place finisher where we are two years in a row. Still, as we both know, it is a very sensitive topic, which can probably never be brought up without a fistfight in response.

By the way, your point about Larry Johnson is valid, I drafted him very low last year, sat on him all season even when the spot was costing me points and many were offering me RB3 players for him. At the end, many expressed disgust at the two RB tandems for the top two finishers.

I just devised an excel chart, which I will try to post the next chance I get, where it shows that in a snake draft, the first pick has a 0.48% difference advantage in value-based points from the eighth pick. In the 2 FP snake system, the difference is actually reversed, where the last place pick has a 0.47% difference advantage over the first pick. So there was some merit to their argument.

In a 1 FP NFL-Style system, the first pick has a 8.35% difference advantage over the last pick!

However, for a FP NFL-Style system, in order to reach the same level of equality offered by the snake draft system, one would need a 9 FP NFL-Style system to reach the 0.47% advantage for the first pick owner over the last pick owner.

You proposed an idea of compensation for keeping your top players, how would such a system work? I am intrigued by your idea.

Gold

I wouldn't underestimate the "skill" factor, sensitive as it may be to the consistent bottom-finishers. I think it probably has a lot more to do with it than they'd like to admit.

I'm in a league very similar to your description (we have more than 2 keepers, but there is no time limit on keepers, and we use a snake draft) that has been going since 1991. I would have to say that the skill level of all the owners is fairly even. There have been stretches of years where the same couple of teams finished near the top in consecutive years, but for the most part things have averaged out as you would expect them to.

How many teams are in your league? Mine is a 12-team league, so there is a lot of parity. In a 8- or 10- team league it might be easier to win on a consistent basis.

A lot of it comes down to smart drafting, and patience. I mean, I can guarantee that all of the bottom teams from your league in 2004 got a fair shot at Larry Johnson in your 2005 draft. If they don't have him, they shouldn't try to cripple the owner that does.

If your league really is set on switching the rules, I have to say that I don't like the idea of an NFL-style draft, I think it's too harsh on the good teams. In the long run, assuming the skill levels of the owners are equal, fantasy football is naturally cyclical. You shouldn't have to force a cycle of bad teams getting better and good teams getting worse.

I'm also not a fan of putting limits on keepers. One of my favorite strategies is building a franchise for the future. I might go 3-4 years where I basically forego a shot at the playoffs just to build a young talented core, adding 1 or 2 players each year. I'll trade players and/or picks in this year's draft, just to get draft picks for next year. It's all about patience. And if I go to the trouble of drafting sleepers and prospects, and I happen to land the next Larry Johnson, I certainly don't want to have to give him up after 2 years.

I can, however, support the idea of giving up compensation for your two franchise players. If you happen to have LaDainian Tomlinson and Shaun Alexander and you want to keep them forever, you have every right to do so, but it will cost you every year (high draft picks for example). Just like the NFL, if you want to hold on to your stud players, you have to pay a lot. This will give the bad teams a better shot to catch up in the draft. With each team only keeping two players, there should be enough talent in the draft to go around so that they shouldn't be consistently bad year after year.

Unless they're just not good at fantasy football. But that's a sensitive topic.

 

[VintageGold]

This idea has been brought up before, does anyone have a auction-keeper league? If so, how does that work? Especially valuing keepers while you also want to avoid creating an anchor by giving an estimated value for the top positions.

Gold

You could go to an auction format. Each manager would then have an equal oppotunity to obtain any given non-keeper. If going to an auction is objectionable, you can try what we use. We are allowed one keeper each year. The keeper counts as a draft pick, one round higher than drafted the previous year, minimum of a fifth round pick.

This works ok, but I would like to see a change. I drafted Willie Parker in the 15th, this year he counts as a 5th, next year a 4th, etc. I would rahter see the player drop 2-3rounds per year, starting where he was drafted. The system we use, favors keeping the very best players, and those players can be kept for 5-years (Shaun Alexander is a 5-year keeper). My system would promote (I think) looking more at new talent, while turning over the known talent more often.

Of course change in my league is difficult, and so I am left hoping for changes, rather than rather than keeping Willie as a 12th this year.

 

[VintageGold]

Captain Hook,

It is a money-based league, we earn money based on our finishing place (only the top three places earn money).

There is no playoff, it is based on the top cumulative points throughout the season.

I like your idea of mixing up the draft order so one team does not give up towards the end of the season. However, I am not certain it this would work with a keeper system, because the 5th place finisher is most likely to have a better keeper than the 12th place finisher, so it could be an unfair arrangement.

Gold

Your league should never reward a team for finishing in LAST place.

How many teams are in the money?

Or is it a playoff system?

Whatever the number of teams in the money/playoffs, the 1st pick in the following years draft should go to the next team and then procede down from there:

For instance: 12 team, 3 divisions, top team in each division plus wild card with best record or most points - those four go to the playoffs

Following year's draft should be

1st - 5th place

2nd - 6th place

3rd - 7th place

4th - 8th place

5th - 9th place

6th - 10th place

7th - 11th place

8th - 12th place

9th- 4th place

10th - 3rd place

11th - 2nd place

12th - 1st place

You want teams to compete and try hard ALL year - want all of them trying to reach the playoffs or try for best draft pick. This doesn't mean that a team that had crippling injuries can't make a trade for a better franchise player(s), but you don't want them to just give up and mail it in the following year.

As far as the franchise players, it would be perfectly logical and I think easy to sell that the four teams in the playoffs are limited to just one franchise player, but all the rest of the teams could have two.

 

[VintageGold]

I am not sure if this will come out clearly, if you know how to copy/paste excel information into this forum, please let me know.

I would really appreciate honest feedback on this valuation system for each type of franchise player/drafting combination system. The first two serve as a point of reference for the rest of the analysis.

IMPT NOTE: The % change line is the % difference in points between the first pick and the last pick.

0 FP Snake Style

FP = Franchise Players

(Last place) (First place)

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

152 151 150 149 148 147 146 145

137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144

136 135 134 133 132 131 130 129

121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128

120 119 118 117 116 115 114 113

105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112

104 103 102 101 100 99 98 97

89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96

88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81

73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80

72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65

57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64

56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49

41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48

40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33

25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32

24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

Total 1457 1456 1455 1454 1453 1452 1451 1450

Diff from last pick 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

% Change 0.48% 0.41% 0.34% 0.28% 0.21% 0.14% 0.07%

0 FP Snake Style (weighted)

(two rounds skipped between 2nd and 3rd round to add value to top 2 rounds)

(Last place) (First place)

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

168 167 166 165 164 163 162 161

153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160

136 135 134 133 132 131 130 129

121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128

120 119 118 117 116 115 114 113

105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112

104 103 102 101 100 99 98 97

89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96

88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81

73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80

72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65

57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64

56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49

41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48

40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33

25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32

24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

Total 1489 1488 1487 1486 1485 1484 1483 1482

Diff from last pick 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

% Change 0.47% 0.40% 0.34% 0.27% 0.20% 0.13% 0.07%

2 FP Snake Style (weighted)

(Last place) (First place)

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

FP 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168

FP 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160

136 135 134 133 132 131 130 129

121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128

120 119 118 117 116 115 114 113

105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112

104 103 102 101 100 99 98 97

89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96

88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81

73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80

72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65

57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64

56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49

41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48

40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33

25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32

24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

Total 1482 1483 1484 1485 1486 1487 1488 1489

Diff from last pick -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1

% Change -0.47% -0.40% -0.34% -0.27% -0.20% -0.13% -0.07%

1 FP NFL-Style (weighted)

(Last place) (First place)

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

FP 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168

160 159 158 157 156 155 154 153

136 135 134 133 132 131 130 129

128 127 126 125 124 123 122 121

120 119 118 117 116 115 114 113

112 111 110 109 108 107 106 105

104 103 102 101 100 99 98 97

96 95 94 93 92 91 90 89

88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81

80 79 78 77 76 75 74 73

72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65

64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57

56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49

48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41

40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33

32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25

24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17

16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9

8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

Total 1545 1528 1511 1494 1477 1460 1443 1426

Diff from last pick 119 102 85 68 51 34 17

% Change 8.35% 7.15% 5.96% 4.77% 3.58% 2.38% 1.19%

2 FP NFL Style

(Last place) (First place)

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

FP 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168

FP 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160

136 135 134 133 132 131 130 129

128 127 126 125 124 123 122 121

120 119 118 117 116 115 114 113

112 111 110 109 108 107 106 105

104 103 102 101 100 99 98 97

96 95 94 93 92 91 90 89

88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81

80 79 78 77 76 75 74 73

72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65

64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57

56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49

48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41

40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33

32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25

24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17

16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9

8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

Total 1538 1523 1508 1493 1478 1463 1448 1433

Diff from last pick 105 90 75 60 45 30 15

% Change 7.33% 6.28% 5.23% 4.19% 3.14% 2.09% 1.05%

9 FP NFL Style (To reach equality of snake system)

(Last place) (First place)

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

FP 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168

FP 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160

FP 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136

FP 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128

FP 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120

FP 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112

FP 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104

FP 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96

FP 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88

80 79 78 77 76 75 74 73

72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65

64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57

56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49

48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41

40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33

32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25

24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17

16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9

8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

Total 1489 1488 1487 1486 1485 1484 1483 1482

Diff from last pick 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

% Change 0.47% 0.40% 0.34% 0.27% 0.20% 0.13% 0.07%

 

[cheeseypoof]

This idea has been brought up before, does anyone have a auction-keeper league? If so, how does that work? Especially valuing keepers while you also want to avoid creating an anchor by giving an estimated value for the top positions.

Gold

You could go to an auction format. Each manager would then have an equal oppotunity to obtain any given non-keeper. If going to an auction is objectionable, you can try what we use. We are allowed one keeper each year. The keeper counts as a draft pick, one round higher than drafted the previous year, minimum of a fifth round pick.

This works ok, but I would like to see a change. I drafted Willie Parker in the 15th, this year he counts as a 5th, next year a 4th, etc. I would rahter see the player drop 2-3rounds per year, starting where he was drafted. The system we use, favors keeping the very best players, and those players can be kept for 5-years (Shaun Alexander is a 5-year keeper). My system would promote (I think) looking more at new talent, while turning over the known talent more often.

Of course change in my league is difficult, and so I am left hoping for changes, rather than rather than keeping Willie as a 12th this year.

We are going into the 3rd year of our Auction Keeper league. It's a 10 team league with a $200/team budget. You can keep as many players as you wish, but we escalate the auction/salary values each year. You can also carryover any unsed auction money from one year to the next (with no limit). The keeper salary system we use is as follows:The salaries escalate from the previous season, based upon the number of years kept, as follows:

QB: +5, +10, +15, +20, etc

RB: +10, +20, +30, +40, etc.

WR: +5, +5, +5, +10, +10, +10, +15, etc.

TE/K: +5 every year

This essentially gets the big ticket players back in the auction every 2-3 years. I expect that we'll only have 3-4 players (out of 20-30 keepers) being kept for a 2nd time.

Shaun Alexander was bought at auction for $60 last year. He would cost that owner $70 as a keeper this year. I expect he will not be kept.

Antonio Gates is the one exception here. He was originally drafted for $3. This season he'll be kept for the 2nd time for only $13. I could easily see him being kept for another 2-3 years (assuming he stays healthy and productive).

Hope that makes sense and helps.

 

[tomarken]

I am not sure if this will come out clearly, if you know how to copy/paste excel information into this forum, please let me know.

I would really appreciate honest feedback on this valuation system for each type of franchise player/drafting combination system. The first two serve as a point of reference for the rest of the analysis.

IMPT NOTE: The % change line is the % difference in points between the first pick and the last pick.

If I understand correctly what you were trying to do here, I think there are some problems. The picks in a draft are not valued sequentially like that. You can't say that the 1st pick is worth 152, the 2nd worth 151, the 3rd worth 150, etc. You have to take into account the various dropoffs in value. For example, the difference between the 3rd pick and the 4th pick is much greater than the difference between the 23rd and 24th picks.Regardless of that, the only reason there was any difference in the total values at the bottom was because you used an odd number of rounds. Tack one more on and see what happens to the numbers. Every pair of rounds evens out - for example:

16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

----------------------------

17 17 17 17 17 17 17 17

Here's an idea...get Draft Dominator if you don't already have it, and input your league settings, keepers and all. Make a note of the "Team Strengths" after the keepers are in. Then run a mock draft (just have DD draft everyone by ADP I guess) and then check the "Team Strengths" again. Did the strong teams (the ones picking at the end of the 1st round) get stronger, or were the weaker teams able to close the gap?

This will help you get a better idea of the relative value of the picks in your draft, and then you can tweak the draft settings to see if an NFL-style draft or some other system would make things more even for the basement-dwellers.

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with the way your league is set up now. It sounds like the ones at the bottom are complaining a little too much. I mean, you only have 8 teams, and 3 of them finish in the money...they just need a little patience, and maybe do a little more homework before the draft, and their day will come. Like I said before, I don't really believe in taking extra measures to create parity - it will happen naturally over the course of time, and if it doesn't, then the losing owners have no one to blame but themselves.

 

[The Jerk]

VintageGold,

I agree that the pendulum has fallen way too far in the other direction. To me, you can't have keepers without some amount of NFL-style drafting. However, unless the majority of a team is kept from year to year, it is unfair to make the entire draft NFL-style.

I think a reasonable compromise would be to have the draft begin with a round or two of NFL-style followed by the traditional snake.

Something like this, where worst team = 8 and best team = 1:

Round 1: 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

Round 2: 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

Rounds 3-whenever: snake

If Round 3 starts with team 1, then essentially only one round was true NFL-style. If Round 3 starts with team 8, then two rounds were true NFL-style.