New rules announced for airline refunds. Lesss go! (1 Viewer)

[massraider]

Details

The administration and DOT announced new rules that requires automatic refunds for:

Canceled flight
Domestic flights delayed more than 3 hrs
International delayed more than 6
Change in airport or added connection
Checked bag not delivered in 12 hours
Paying for wifi or seat selection that isn't provided

Also rules on junk fees and misleasing promos.

That all seems nice.

*edited to remove the name of our president

 

[dgreen]

Airline prices going up in 3, 2, 1…

 

[Dr_Zaius]

I like the disclosure requirements of the fees.

The area I've been consistently disappointed in over the years is the airlines response to major delays or cancellations. It seems like there's very little urgency in getting you to your destination in a reasonable timeframe. Is that addressed at all in the rule changes? The refunds are nice, but you're often still in a much worse spot, particularly because if you booked early you can't use the refund to get a comparable flight on short notice.

 

[The Z Machine]

I was diverted from Shanghai to Incheon (S Korea) due to weather. I was delayed in arrival in Shanghai by nearly 24 hours. Would that be eligible for a refund under these rules? The flight departed on time, but I made it to my destination much later than anticipated.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I was diverted from Shanghai to Incheon (S Korea) due to weather. I was delayed in arrival in Shanghai by nearly 24 hours. Would that be eligible for a refund under these rules? The flight departed on time, but I made it to my destination much later than anticipated.

I haven't read through it but I can't imagine the airlines would be responsible if it originated from a weather issue.

 

[GroveDiesel]

I was diverted from Shanghai to Incheon (S Korea) due to weather. I was delayed in arrival in Shanghai by nearly 24 hours. Would that be eligible for a refund under these rules? The flight departed on time, but I made it to my destination much later than anticipated.

I haven't read through it but I can't imagine the airlines would be responsible if it originated from a weather issue.

They claim everything is weather related already. Storming in Denver but your flight leaving Baltimore is delayed? Well that’s because of all their interconnecting flights. So weather is the reason for your delay even though it’s really because the airline is running skeleton crews for pilots and flight attendants and everyone is over their hours.

 

[Zow]

Airline prices going up in 3, 2, 1…

We purchased some yesterday because they actually dropped. No idea if it's related.

 

[Dr_Zaius]

They claim everything is weather related already.

Exactly. Sometime in the last 10 years they seemed to collectively realize that "weather" was their get out of jail free card.

 

[The Z Machine]

I was diverted from Shanghai to Incheon (S Korea) due to weather. I was delayed in arrival in Shanghai by nearly 24 hours. Would that be eligible for a refund under these rules? The flight departed on time, but I made it to my destination much later than anticipated.

I haven't read through it but I can't imagine the airlines would be responsible if it originated from a weather issue.

Well technically, the airplane could have refueled and I would have been ~2-3 hours late, but the crew had reached its maximum flight hours and there was no suitable replacement in Korea.

 

[The Z Machine]

They claim everything is weather related already.

Exactly. Sometime in the last 10 years they seemed to collectively realize that "weather" was their get out of jail free card.

I suggest that any weather related delays wouldn't be covered, but it is up to the airline to prove through documentation submitted to the FAA that a delay was due to weather. That documentation must include the data from which they made the determination and the persons responsible for that determination. The FAA should have the remit to countermand their conclusion and force the airline to issue a refund if the FAA determines the delay wasn't truly weather related.

 

[hagmania]

Airline prices going up in 3, 2, 1…

That's fine, so long as everyone is playing in an open, fully visible market. This is nothing but better for the consumer in the long run.

Edit: that philosophy is better for the consumer. theory vs practice always has variance. it's the hope that, with enough protection, consumers and businesses they consume from both benefit.

 

[GroveDiesel]

It’s also a little unclear to me on how this will work. If my flight gets delayed for more than 3 hours, does that mean the airline is going to be forced to refund me my ticket and suddenly I no longer have a ticket and have to scramble to try to re-book (likely at a higher fee)?

 

[Scoresman]

Wonderful news. Now lets work on preventing them from purposely overbooking flights.

 

[massraider]

Wonderful news. Now lets work on preventing them from purposely overbooking flights.

They did. See that bit about getting a refund if you don't have your seat?

 

[Scoresman]

Wonderful news. Now lets work on preventing them from purposely overbooking flights.

They did. See that bit about getting a refund if you don't have your seat?

I mean preventing them from doing it. If I book a flight, I expect to be on it. Getting bumped off a flight and getting a refund is still a ****ty situation.

 

[Phil Elliott]

I was diverted from Shanghai to Incheon (S Korea) due to weather. I was delayed in arrival in Shanghai by nearly 24 hours. Would that be eligible for a refund under these rules? The flight departed on time, but I made it to my destination much later than anticipated.

I haven't read through it but I can't imagine the airlines would be responsible if it originated from a weather issue.

...or expiration of crew work hours.

 

[Ilov80s]

Airline prices going up in 3, 2, 1…

As opposed to what? They have been going up like crazy since COVID anyway.

 

[Major]

It’s also a little unclear to me on how this will work. If my flight gets delayed for more than 3 hours, does that mean the airline is going to be forced to refund me my ticket and suddenly I no longer have a ticket and have to scramble to try to re-book (likely at a higher fee)?

That's what I'm wondering as well. If I get refunded and still keep my ticket then that's great but I doubt it's the case.

 

[titusbramble]

Over here back in 2017 or so, I had a ~4 hour delay and got €250 for a flight that cost me no more than €25. In 2019 when my flight from Chicago to Vegas was delayed 10 hours, I got a burger and a $50 voucher I'd never use

 

[The Z Machine]

Over here back in 2017 or so, I had a ~4 hour delay and got €250 for a flight that cost me no more than €25. In 2019 when my flight from Chicago to Vegas was delayed 10 hours, I got a burger and a $50 voucher I'd never use

'Murica!

 

[dgreen]

Airline prices going up in 3, 2, 1…

As opposed to what? They have been going up like crazy since COVID anyway.

As opposed to what they’d be without these regulations.

 

[dickey moe]

Airline prices going up in 3, 2, 1…

Yep.

 

[Runkle]

Paying for wifi or seat selection that isn't provided

Does this include a partial refund for when wifi is supposed to be a part of the amenities, but is non-functional on the plane itself?

And/or if the seatback TV isn't working or not receiving live broadcast as promised?

Because I'm sick of booking six-hour flights cross country on a carrier that specifically advertises live TV during the flight and free wifi, only to find that once I'm on board, neither are working. So much for my plans to watch a football or baseball game to pass the time.

And the price of wifi on other carriers is outrageous. Wish the port-switching tricks still worked

 

[Ilov80s]

Airline prices going up in 3, 2, 1…

As opposed to what? They have been going up like crazy since COVID anyway.

As opposed to what they’d be without these regulations.

I’ll take my chances. At least they can’t screw people over.

 

[Mitchie]

Airline prices going up in 3, 2, 1…

As opposed to what? They have been going up like crazy since COVID anyway.

As opposed to what they’d be without these regulations.

so you're in favor of no customer protections or regulations? just let the airlines do what they want and assume that will keep prices down?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Airline prices going up in 3, 2, 1…

As opposed to what? They have been going up like crazy since COVID anyway.

As opposed to what they’d be without these regulations.

so you're in favor of no customer protections or regulations? just let the airlines do what they want and assume that will keep prices down?

I don't think he said that there should be no consumer protections or regulations of any kind. That sort of strawmanning isn't very helpful.

Like everything else, it's a tradeoff. I don't know much about running a commercial airline, but it seems like it would be pretty complicated, with lots of ways that things could go wrong. I do understand the basic idea behind the hub-and-spoke system and why a thunderstorm in Atlanta can cause my flight from Chicago to Seattle to be delayed. And we all want planes to be safe, which means they need to be inspected before each flight. Under those circumstances, it is a fact of life that passengers will occasionally have their flights delayed or cancelled, with nobody in particular being at fault.

It's reasonable to ask who should bear the burden of that risk. Right now, it pretty much all falls on the passengers whose travel plans are disrupted. Maybe it would be better to offer refunds and have those risks pooled across consumers generally (in the form of higher prices) and investors (in the form of lower returns). I don't know, and I sort of don't care. Having to sit in an airport for a few hours, or not having wifi on your flight, are pretty much the textbook definition of a first world problem. We'll all be fine either way.

Right now, I am not sure that airlines really have the right incentives to avoid delays. I'm also not sure that they don't. Like I said, I know that managing a schedule of cross-country and international flights is probably pretty complicated, and it's not like they want delays to happen, because they tend to snowball across the system. But maybe there's more that the airlines could do (e.g. more staffing, better equipment) and maybe this policy change nudges them in the right direction.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Airline prices going up in 3, 2, 1…

As opposed to what? They have been going up like crazy since COVID anyway.

As opposed to what they’d be without these regulations.

so you're in favor of no customer protections or regulations? just let the airlines do what they want and assume that will keep prices down?

I don't think he said that there should be no consumer protections or regulations of any kind. That sort of strawmanning isn't very helpful.

Like everything else, it's a tradeoff. I don't know much about running a commercial airline, but it seems like it would be pretty complicated, with lots of ways that things could go wrong. I do understand the basic idea behind the hub-and-spoke system and why a thunderstorm in Atlanta can cause my flight from Chicago to Seattle to be delayed. And we all want planes to be safe, which means they need to be inspected before each flight. Under those circumstances, it is a fact of life that passengers will occasionally have their flights delayed or cancelled, with nobody in particular being at fault.

It's reasonable to ask who should bear the burden of that risk. Right now, it pretty much all falls on the passengers whose travel plans are disrupted. Maybe it would be better to offer refunds and have those risks pooled across consumers generally (in the form of higher prices) and investors (in the form of lower returns). I don't know, and I sort of don't care. Having to sit in an airport for a few hours, or not having wifi on your flight, are pretty much the textbook definition of a first world problem. We'll all be fine either way.

Right now, I am not sure that airlines really have the right incentives to avoid delays. I'm also not sure that they don't. Like I said, I know that managing a schedule of cross-country and international flights is probably pretty complicated, and it's not like they want delays to happen, because they tend to snowball across the system. But maybe there's more that the airlines could do (e.g. more staffing, better equipment) and maybe this policy change nudges them in the right direction.

I’d be a little less frustrated with airlines if they hadn’t received billions in bailout money and seemingly invested none of it in their logistical systems.

I have no doubt that it is incredibly difficult to make all those pieces work, and Covid was really tough on airlines. But most of them made huge profits the last couple of years and the way air travel works is more opaque than ever. Of course, it’s also incredibly cheap relatively.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Airline prices going up in 3, 2, 1…

As opposed to what? They have been going up like crazy since COVID anyway.

As opposed to what they’d be without these regulations.

so you're in favor of no customer protections or regulations? just let the airlines do what they want and assume that will keep prices down?

I don't think he said that there should be no consumer protections or regulations of any kind. That sort of strawmanning isn't very helpful.

Like everything else, it's a tradeoff. I don't know much about running a commercial airline, but it seems like it would be pretty complicated, with lots of ways that things could go wrong. I do understand the basic idea behind the hub-and-spoke system and why a thunderstorm in Atlanta can cause my flight from Chicago to Seattle to be delayed. And we all want planes to be safe, which means they need to be inspected before each flight. Under those circumstances, it is a fact of life that passengers will occasionally have their flights delayed or cancelled, with nobody in particular being at fault.

It's reasonable to ask who should bear the burden of that risk. Right now, it pretty much all falls on the passengers whose travel plans are disrupted. Maybe it would be better to offer refunds and have those risks pooled across consumers generally (in the form of higher prices) and investors (in the form of lower returns). I don't know, and I sort of don't care. Having to sit in an airport for a few hours, or not having wifi on your flight, are pretty much the textbook definition of a first world problem. We'll all be fine either way.

Right now, I am not sure that airlines really have the right incentives to avoid delays. I'm also not sure that they don't. Like I said, I know that managing a schedule of cross-country and international flights is probably pretty complicated, and it's not like they want delays to happen, because they tend to snowball across the system. But maybe there's more that the airlines could do (e.g. more staffing, better equipment) and maybe this policy change nudges them in the right direction.

I’d be a little less frustrated with airlines if they hadn’t received billions in bailout money and seemingly invested none of it in their logistical systems.

I have no doubt that it is incredibly difficult to make all those pieces work, and Covid was really tough on airlines. But most of them made huge profits the last couple of years and the way air travel works is more opaque than ever. Of course, it’s also incredibly cheap relatively.

Giving people one-time bailout money during a once-in-a-century pandemic does not give you license to micromanage their affairs until the end of time. If you think airlines have the wrong incentives, just say that. Otherwise, the pandemic is over and its time to move on from it.

 

[McBokonon]

Having to sit in an airport for a few hours, or not having wifi on your flight, are pretty much the textbook definition of a first world problem. We'll all be fine either way.

I agree with everything you wrote. I don’t want to kneecap these companies because it’s not like they’re just unplugging the wifi or whatever. That said, when I buy a plane ticket, I’m not just buying a seat from Phoenix to Philly. I’m buying a seat to Philly, plus access to wifi, a particular departure time, and a particular arrival time, etc. I consider the totality of those things the product I purchased. If the airline is unable to deliver all of those things (within reason, I’m not quibbling over an hour or something) I consider my purchase to not be 100% fulfilled. I decided to pay more for Delta or American over Frontier for these reasons. So, I don’t think it’s crazy to expect some sort of compensation.

But, again, almost all of these problems are caused by acts of God (not all, some are airline incompetence) so maybe just give me credit for wifi for 2 flights or 500 miles or something. I don’t know the answer but everything or nothing aren’t them.

 

[krista4]

If your entertainment system doesn’t work or Wi-Fi doesn’t, on Delta you can ask a FA and they have a little device where they immediately give you 5000 or 10,000 miles. Or contact customer service afterward and they do. Just in case anyone didn’t know that. Not sure about other airlines.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Airline prices going up in 3, 2, 1…

As opposed to what? They have been going up like crazy since COVID anyway.

As opposed to what they’d be without these regulations.

so you're in favor of no customer protections or regulations? just let the airlines do what they want and assume that will keep prices down?

I don't think he said that there should be no consumer protections or regulations of any kind. That sort of strawmanning isn't very helpful.

Like everything else, it's a tradeoff. I don't know much about running a commercial airline, but it seems like it would be pretty complicated, with lots of ways that things could go wrong. I do understand the basic idea behind the hub-and-spoke system and why a thunderstorm in Atlanta can cause my flight from Chicago to Seattle to be delayed. And we all want planes to be safe, which means they need to be inspected before each flight. Under those circumstances, it is a fact of life that passengers will occasionally have their flights delayed or cancelled, with nobody in particular being at fault.

It's reasonable to ask who should bear the burden of that risk. Right now, it pretty much all falls on the passengers whose travel plans are disrupted. Maybe it would be better to offer refunds and have those risks pooled across consumers generally (in the form of higher prices) and investors (in the form of lower returns). I don't know, and I sort of don't care. Having to sit in an airport for a few hours, or not having wifi on your flight, are pretty much the textbook definition of a first world problem. We'll all be fine either way.

Right now, I am not sure that airlines really have the right incentives to avoid delays. I'm also not sure that they don't. Like I said, I know that managing a schedule of cross-country and international flights is probably pretty complicated, and it's not like they want delays to happen, because they tend to snowball across the system. But maybe there's more that the airlines could do (e.g. more staffing, better equipment) and maybe this policy change nudges them in the right direction.

I’d be a little less frustrated with airlines if they hadn’t received billions in bailout money and seemingly invested none of it in their logistical systems.

I have no doubt that it is incredibly difficult to make all those pieces work, and Covid was really tough on airlines. But most of them made huge profits the last couple of years and the way air travel works is more opaque than ever. Of course, it’s also incredibly cheap relatively.

Giving people one-time bailout money during a once-in-a-century pandemic does not give you license to micromanage their affairs until the end of time. If you think airlines have the wrong incentives, just say that. Otherwise, the pandemic is over and its time to move on from it.

Is it time to move on from that?

One of the major reasons flights get delayed or cancelled is because the airlines don’t have enough workers. So when bad weather delays a crew from one area, it creates a cascading effect of either not enough workers in other cities, or workers going over their hours and not being allowed to fly. Increasing worker pay of course would provide more incentive to gain more workers, but of course that eats into profits.

Of course plenty of employers are having a hard time hiring in general, but for the airline industry it’s particular egregious that we gave about $50B in bailouts/assistance and instead of maintaining staffing as was intended (with restrictions like no more furloughs or layoffs), they used huge portions of the money to offer early retirement to more senior employees. So the airlines used the money to cushion future liabilities and boost profits by cutting staffing levels which has been a huge contributing factor to their current operations.

So no, I’m not just willing to hand wave away Covid bailouts as being in the past because the deliberate decisions the airlines made with that money have directly lead to higher current profits for them and a worse consumer product for us.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Airline prices going up in 3, 2, 1…

As opposed to what? They have been going up like crazy since COVID anyway.

As opposed to what they’d be without these regulations.

so you're in favor of no customer protections or regulations? just let the airlines do what they want and assume that will keep prices down?

I don't think he said that there should be no consumer protections or regulations of any kind. That sort of strawmanning isn't very helpful.

Like everything else, it's a tradeoff. I don't know much about running a commercial airline, but it seems like it would be pretty complicated, with lots of ways that things could go wrong. I do understand the basic idea behind the hub-and-spoke system and why a thunderstorm in Atlanta can cause my flight from Chicago to Seattle to be delayed. And we all want planes to be safe, which means they need to be inspected before each flight. Under those circumstances, it is a fact of life that passengers will occasionally have their flights delayed or cancelled, with nobody in particular being at fault.

It's reasonable to ask who should bear the burden of that risk. Right now, it pretty much all falls on the passengers whose travel plans are disrupted. Maybe it would be better to offer refunds and have those risks pooled across consumers generally (in the form of higher prices) and investors (in the form of lower returns). I don't know, and I sort of don't care. Having to sit in an airport for a few hours, or not having wifi on your flight, are pretty much the textbook definition of a first world problem. We'll all be fine either way.

Right now, I am not sure that airlines really have the right incentives to avoid delays. I'm also not sure that they don't. Like I said, I know that managing a schedule of cross-country and international flights is probably pretty complicated, and it's not like they want delays to happen, because they tend to snowball across the system. But maybe there's more that the airlines could do (e.g. more staffing, better equipment) and maybe this policy change nudges them in the right direction.

I’d be a little less frustrated with airlines if they hadn’t received billions in bailout money and seemingly invested none of it in their logistical systems.

I have no doubt that it is incredibly difficult to make all those pieces work, and Covid was really tough on airlines. But most of them made huge profits the last couple of years and the way air travel works is more opaque than ever. Of course, it’s also incredibly cheap relatively.

Giving people one-time bailout money during a once-in-a-century pandemic does not give you license to micromanage their affairs until the end of time. If you think airlines have the wrong incentives, just say that. Otherwise, the pandemic is over and its time to move on from it.

Is it time to move on from that?

One of the major reasons flights get delayed or cancelled is because the airlines don’t have enough workers. So when bad weather delays a crew from one area, it creates a cascading effect of either not enough workers in other cities, or workers going over their hours and not being allowed to fly. Increasing worker pay of course would provide more incentive to gain more workers, but of course that eats into profits.

Of course plenty of employers are having a hard time hiring in general, but for the airline industry it’s particular egregious that we gave about $50B in bailouts/assistance and instead of maintaining staffing as was intended (with restrictions like no more furloughs or layoffs), they used huge portions of the money to offer early retirement to more senior employees. So the airlines used the money to cushion future liabilities and boost profits by cutting staffing levels which has been a huge contributing factor to their current operations.

So no, I’m not just willing to hand wave away Covid bailouts as being in the past because the deliberate decisions the airlines made with that money have directly lead to higher current profits for them and a worse consumer product for us.

This is an excellent way of poisoning the well for the next time a natural disaster strikes and people are arguing for emergency bailouts.

 

[Mitchie]

Airline prices going up in 3, 2, 1…

As opposed to what? They have been going up like crazy since COVID anyway.

As opposed to what they’d be without these regulations.

so you're in favor of no customer protections or regulations? just let the airlines do what they want and assume that will keep prices down?

I don't think he said that there should be no consumer protections or regulations of any kind. That sort of strawmanning isn't very helpful.

Like everything else, it's a tradeoff. I don't know much about running a commercial airline, but it seems like it would be pretty complicated, with lots of ways that things could go wrong. I do understand the basic idea behind the hub-and-spoke system and why a thunderstorm in Atlanta can cause my flight from Chicago to Seattle to be delayed. And we all want planes to be safe, which means they need to be inspected before each flight. Under those circumstances, it is a fact of life that passengers will occasionally have their flights delayed or cancelled, with nobody in particular being at fault.

It's reasonable to ask who should bear the burden of that risk. Right now, it pretty much all falls on the passengers whose travel plans are disrupted. Maybe it would be better to offer refunds and have those risks pooled across consumers generally (in the form of higher prices) and investors (in the form of lower returns). I don't know, and I sort of don't care. Having to sit in an airport for a few hours, or not having wifi on your flight, are pretty much the textbook definition of a first world problem. We'll all be fine either way.

Right now, I am not sure that airlines really have the right incentives to avoid delays. I'm also not sure that they don't. Like I said, I know that managing a schedule of cross-country and international flights is probably pretty complicated, and it's not like they want delays to happen, because they tend to snowball across the system. But maybe there's more that the airlines could do (e.g. more staffing, better equipment) and maybe this policy change nudges them in the right direction.

It's not a strawman argument if it's directly related to the question at hand. His suggestion was that regulations lead to increased pricing. It's a logical question to ask if he's opposed to all regulations as presumably they lead to higher prices.

 

[BassNBrew]

I'm all for incentivizing companies to put arrival time before souls. Rolling the dice on a a 30,000 foot fall will just make life a little more exciting.

I will LOL when airlines start issuing refunds for your $99 Super Saver flight and force you to pay the current rate for a new ticket when a flight is cancelled.

 

[dgreen]

Airline prices going up in 3, 2, 1…

As opposed to what? They have been going up like crazy since COVID anyway.

As opposed to what they’d be without these regulations.

so you're in favor of no customer protections or regulations? just let the airlines do what they want and assume that will keep prices down?

I don't think he said that there should be no consumer protections or regulations of any kind. That sort of strawmanning isn't very helpful.

Like everything else, it's a tradeoff. I don't know much about running a commercial airline, but it seems like it would be pretty complicated, with lots of ways that things could go wrong. I do understand the basic idea behind the hub-and-spoke system and why a thunderstorm in Atlanta can cause my flight from Chicago to Seattle to be delayed. And we all want planes to be safe, which means they need to be inspected before each flight. Under those circumstances, it is a fact of life that passengers will occasionally have their flights delayed or cancelled, with nobody in particular being at fault.

It's reasonable to ask who should bear the burden of that risk. Right now, it pretty much all falls on the passengers whose travel plans are disrupted. Maybe it would be better to offer refunds and have those risks pooled across consumers generally (in the form of higher prices) and investors (in the form of lower returns). I don't know, and I sort of don't care. Having to sit in an airport for a few hours, or not having wifi on your flight, are pretty much the textbook definition of a first world problem. We'll all be fine either way.

Right now, I am not sure that airlines really have the right incentives to avoid delays. I'm also not sure that they don't. Like I said, I know that managing a schedule of cross-country and international flights is probably pretty complicated, and it's not like they want delays to happen, because they tend to snowball across the system. But maybe there's more that the airlines could do (e.g. more staffing, better equipment) and maybe this policy change nudges them in the right direction.

It's not a strawman argument if it's directly related to the question at hand. His suggestion was that regulations lead to increased pricing. It's a logical question to ask if he's opposed to all regulations as presumably they lead to higher prices.

I’m not opposed to all regulations.

 

[Jobber]

It’s also a little unclear to me on how this will work. If my flight gets delayed for more than 3 hours, does that mean the airline is going to be forced to refund me my ticket and suddenly I no longer have a ticket and have to scramble to try to re-book (likely at a higher fee)?

That’s my assumption. A delay and you have a choice. Me? I’m taking the delay instead of being stranded in whatever concourse I’m sitting in.