Johnny Ice
Footballguy
How can he play the ball when it's already in his hands? Should he go in swiping at it like he's swatting flies and let Jackson go for a TD, instead of doing what he did?
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NFL might start suspending over flagrant hits that are currently illeg (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter benm3218
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treat88
Footballguy
Exactly what he did. He couldn't catch it so he put his shoulder on it and prevented the completion.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
If Cribbs does not duck or lower his head Harrison drills him in the upper chest/shoulder area. Can`t control what the ball carrier does at the last second.I watched the D-Jax hit a number of times last night. That was just a great collision. First of all D-Jax was split out way right and allowed to run almost the entire width of the field untouched, so he was in full stride, the DB was also running the other way for 10-15 yards. That almost never happens that they criss cross like that. Even then it appeared the DB was aiming for the middle of D-Jaxs chest, but again the game and players are so fast and in constant motion that it is almost impossible to predict where the hit will end up.
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ScottyFargo
Footballguy
If he's not in the position to play the ball, then you've answered your own question. If he can't separate Jackson from the ball by playing the ball then he should try tackling instead of headbutting.
CalBear
Footballguy
1) He doesn't need to separate Jackson from the ball. He doesn't have the first down.2) If he tackles with his head up, he doesn't get flagged for a 15-yard penalty.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
You probably should have just used only #2 as your point and that would have sufficed IMO. That's the difference with all of the hits and why Anderson stated that would have been cause for suspension.
Anyhow, it's nice to have a little clarity. I think he explained himself quiet well and seems to have eliminated a lot of the gray areas.
bosoxs45
Footballguy
The NFL knows the fan loves the violence of the game and will do as little as possible to decrease it.
That's an important statement and good job on the league for getting on a huge outlet to clear that up. I really thought it sounded fishy to hear the media running with the "devastating" thing. That just didn't sound like the league. Way too vague and completely unenforceable.
What I got out of Anderson's interview was the league is going to enforce the rules in the book and increase the penalty given to include possible game suspension without pay.
That's what it'll take to change. As guys like Rodney Harrison have said, fines in the tens of thousands dollar range aren't effective. Especially for the coaches who don't care at all if their player is fined.
Lose him for a game and miss a $150,000 game check and it'll change.
J
That's an interesting point. Common thought may seem to be that the fan wants it as brutal as possible. But I think there's a significant number that do not. They do not want to see a guy paralyzed and would welcome the game moving slightly away from that possibility I think.J
Chairshot
Footballguy
Seems pretty simple to me. Don't lead with your head, don't lower your head and don't leave your feet.
If players did that, you would still have plenty of legit hard hits without killing the ball carrier.
The Merriweather hit was just disgusting, no place for that in the game.
If Harrison had keep his head up and not left his feet, he still would have delivered a very hard hit but I would think it would have been far less likely hurt someone.
If players did that, you would still have plenty of legit hard hits without killing the ball carrier.
The Merriweather hit was just disgusting, no place for that in the game.
If Harrison had keep his head up and not left his feet, he still would have delivered a very hard hit but I would think it would have been far less likely hurt someone.
Agreed. Watch Ray Lewis sometime. He's a good example of guys that can deliver a great hit with his shoulder. Hodge was good on ESPN this morning talking about fundamental "same shoulder / same foot" when delivering the blow. "Shoulder pad is the weapon. Helmet is for protection only" is what'll be coached more.Right now, coaches don't care. Doesn't cost them anything. And players don't really care as it costs a little but they'll gladly pay to get on Sportscenter.J
Besides, some of you guys are acting like this would change the game and weaken it. The game has been violent for years. There were not AS MANY of these types of hits till very recently. I know there were always head hunters or guys known for their hits, but not like todays game. So getting it under control a bit will not kill the game or change it completely. The sky is not falling.
treat88
Footballguy
I agree that it is nice to hear some clarity from Anderson on this.
I wish he would have gone further and expanded on how an offensive player changing their pad level impacts the "deliberateness" of helmet to helmet contact.
There are going to be some gruesome leg injuries if they start to enforce suspensions for less than clearly deliberate head to head contact.
I wish he would have gone further and expanded on how an offensive player changing their pad level impacts the "deliberateness" of helmet to helmet contact.
There are going to be some gruesome leg injuries if they start to enforce suspensions for less than clearly deliberate head to head contact.
Johnny Ice
Footballguy
This is what I see when I watch Ray Lewis...
They have flagged him so many times for those kind of hits it's ridiculous. I remember an Indy game a couple years back when he hit Clark or someone in the endzone with his shoulder breaking up a pass. Flags came out and he went nuts. He would be suspended now as a result of this rule.
VaTerp
Footballguy
Exactly.I used the Lewis hit on Keller as an example earlier. There is still room for plenty of the "devastating" hits that football fans love while still protecting players to the greatest extent possible. Again, using Lewis as an example he has laid out plenty of players over the years (Keller, Ocho, Mendenhall hits come to mind) that were textbook physical football. This is because he is consistent in his technique of delivering a big hit. Even though I believe he was fined for the hit on Ocho and put Mendenhall on IR I don't remember one that resulted in a serious head/neck injury. Injuries are inevitable but head/neck injuries are potentially life threatening and should be avoided as much as possible.As Chairshot states, it seems pretty simple to me too. Don't lead with the head, keep your head up, and don't leave your feet to launch yourself at the opponent's head/neck area. These are basic fundamentals that will protect both players and reduce these type of injuries.I really don't understand all of the complaints about this. Using the "it's football" excuse is just an argument of convenience. It will still be football and injuries will still happen but that doesnt mean that steps shouldn't be taken to reduce some of the risks from hits that can lead to serious head trauma, paralysis, long term brain problems, and even death..
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footballnerd
Footballguy
all these subjective rules will all just add on to the inconsistency that is called the NFL. 
treat88
Footballguy
I am of the opinion that most head to head collisions are not intentional, and therefore not necessarily technique related.That said, I'm 100% cool with this if they will simply call it consistently and not throw a flag or fine/suspend a guy if he uses proper technique.If all it takes is the facemask up and staying on the feet, and they don't penalize/suspend in that situation and/or incidental helmet contact then it's a good change in culture and policy.However, I don't think they will be able to rule on this consistently either on or off the field. The defensive players are put in a no win position. The difference between Lewis vs Keller and Harrison vs Mass is simply an offensive players reaction away from being identical. If the officials can recognize this fact and use discretion with the flag/suspension then it will be a win. Problem is they can't and won't.VaTerp said:
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HINT: Deliberately putting your shoulder into the upper chest of a fast running defenseless player will naturally result in helmet to helmet contact 99% of the time. The defenser's head is mere inches from his shoulder, and the receivers' head is les then a foot from the defender's target, but with significant momentum to snap his head directly into the defenders helmet. Thus, it is (and should be) an illegal hit.I vehemently disagree that the play was "dirty". It was not. The "tackle" was very much in line with what these guys are taught to do, and in line with the culture. I saw no attempt to injure. Let's not confuse "illegal and dangerous" with "dirty".Johnny Ice said:
Defenders have, in recent years, gone away from proper tackling techniques. I gringe every time a watch a corner duck his head and dive/roll at a RB's knees (Asante Samuel does this all the time). Safeties leading with a shoulder into the upper chest is neither necessary nor prudent...it's simply dangerous. LB's hitting RB's HARD who are already CLEARLY on or heading to the turf is un-neccessary, but almost never flagged. Part of the problem is that the defender's FIRST JOB is supposed to be tackling, not trying to "seperate the receiver/runner/QB from the ball".
Unnessesary roughness doesn't need further explanation. It just needs better enforcement.
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VaTerp
Footballguy
Technique and intent are not neccesarily related. Intentionally going at a player's head is wrong regardless of technique. But if proper technique is taught and practiced, beginning at the youth levels, these types of hits can be reduced.
I really think it about that simple.
Disagree. Look at how Lewis gets a lower base and delivers the hit with his shoulder while Harrison moreso launches himself and leads with his helmet. Small differences that I believe are at the essence of what we are talking about. A minor tweak in technique and we are talking about what a great hit it was as opposed to whether or not Harrison is a dirty player. The hit on Cribbs, as I said before, was incidental and legal.Your point about the officiating is valid. Like any judgement call there is some element of subjectiveness but I think officials will get it right much more than they will get it wrong. And if throwing a few flags that may or may not have been a penalty is the downside to saving countless players from debilitating head/neck injuries, I think we should all be able to live with that.
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Godsbrother
Footballguy
Being in the same division as the Steelers I have watched a ton of Ray Lewis over the years and I've seen him launch himself many times at an opponent. I showed in an earlier quote that he views his job is to knockout RBs and WRs. He is no cleaner or dirtier than Harrison. They are both tough and violent LBs that are going to hit you and hit you hard.
Copeman
Footballguy
You people looking at still photos of the plays in question in order to form an opinion or make any type of accurate determination need to stop. Start looking at video of the hits, at real speed.
Afterall, if the players had this ability to slow down the play or pause it, the NFL would demand they do so. But I don't think thats gonna happen.
Looking at still photos remind me of when Santonio Holmes caught the game winner in the SB. Shortly after, many people started posting pics of his feet, saying they were out of bounds. However, they failed to show the still photo of a millisecond before, which clearly showed his feet IN bounds.
Just makes me laugh I guess.
Use common sense people, when discussing a facet of the game that HAS to involve the speed of the game. And then at least try to understand how it is involved.
Afterall, if the players had this ability to slow down the play or pause it, the NFL would demand they do so. But I don't think thats gonna happen.
Looking at still photos remind me of when Santonio Holmes caught the game winner in the SB. Shortly after, many people started posting pics of his feet, saying they were out of bounds. However, they failed to show the still photo of a millisecond before, which clearly showed his feet IN bounds.
Just makes me laugh I guess.
Use common sense people, when discussing a facet of the game that HAS to involve the speed of the game. And then at least try to understand how it is involved.
Voice Of Reason
Footballguy
That sounds exactly like the NFL, make vague overly complex rules so that they can influence the outcome of games if they so desire.Joe Bryant said:
delusional
Footballguy
What next?
D players are given the blocking pads from practice and have them use it on the field?
Plays are blown dead when a WR is jumping, in air, not focused on defense during catch, defending within 5 yards of him?
I think this is a bunch of crap IMHO. Sure headhunting is illegal and should be taken care of with a suspension but that hit on Djax...that wasn't dirty. That was a good hit but now it will get a person suspended. Then you have to add in the horrible judgement of the refs this season, who will be calling or not calling penalties on plays like this. Even worse is you are having a rule changed MID SEASON...a rule that disrupts some of the very basics of football.
This isnt something that is going to change over night and we will see players get suspended...it is going to screw up alot of things. You may see some teams lose games because the D guy held up and let up a first down, or a game winning TD...yea this isn't pretty.
D players are given the blocking pads from practice and have them use it on the field?
Plays are blown dead when a WR is jumping, in air, not focused on defense during catch, defending within 5 yards of him?
I think this is a bunch of crap IMHO. Sure headhunting is illegal and should be taken care of with a suspension but that hit on Djax...that wasn't dirty. That was a good hit but now it will get a person suspended. Then you have to add in the horrible judgement of the refs this season, who will be calling or not calling penalties on plays like this. Even worse is you are having a rule changed MID SEASON...a rule that disrupts some of the very basics of football.
This isnt something that is going to change over night and we will see players get suspended...it is going to screw up alot of things. You may see some teams lose games because the D guy held up and let up a first down, or a game winning TD...yea this isn't pretty.
delusional
Footballguy
http://youtu.be/jldjj45fHWY
I am guessing Reed would get suspended for this hit if it happens next week? Looks like shoulder to shoulder/face to me
I am guessing Reed would get suspended for this hit if it happens next week? Looks like shoulder to shoulder/face to me
treat88
Footballguy
We'll have to agree to disagree on the hits in question. Both players facemasks are tilted to the ground, both players drive through the tackle, neither launches themselves. The difference is Keller doesn't react and drop his head and turn into contact. Absent Mass's reaction Harrison hits him with his shoulder.I will agree that if a few flags is the result and countless players are saved then it's a good policy shift. Again though I believe it will have little to no impact on the frequency of these collisions and it will be suspensions levied against the defense for plays they could not have avoided if they wanted to.
VaTerp
Footballguy
I'm not commenting on whether or not either guy is a "dirty" player. They are both great LBs that play physical football. I am simply pointing out a small difference in technique using the Lewis/Keller and Harrison/Mossaquoi hits as examples.
Why would he be suspended for that? Reed's helmet clears Moreno and he hits him shoulder to shoulder using the "same shoulder/same foot" technique mentioned earlier in the thread. Perfect hit that caused a turnover, fired up his teamates and the crowd, AND allowed from which Moreno got up and walked away just fine.A lot of people in here are building straw man arguments.
Copeman
Footballguy
Defensive players are allowed to make a tackle after the receiver catches the ball. If that receiver goes through the zone the defender is defending, and catches the ball at that exact time the defender is standing there, of course he is gonna get creamed. Physics people, physics.
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@JasonLaCanfora
Jason La Canfora
Steelers James Harrison fined $75K and Falcons Dunta Robinson fined $50K for helmet-to-helmet hits.
@JasonLaCanfora
Jason La Canfora
So for the three most obvious instances, its a total of $175,000 in fines, but no suspensions. I have no doubt in future suspensions coming
Jason La Canfora
Steelers James Harrison fined $75K and Falcons Dunta Robinson fined $50K for helmet-to-helmet hits.
@JasonLaCanfora
Jason La Canfora
So for the three most obvious instances, its a total of $175,000 in fines, but no suspensions. I have no doubt in future suspensions coming
delusional
Footballguy
WTF @ Robinsons fine...and he only hit his shoulder/chest...
compared to Harrisons & Merriweather....
This is all kinds of ####ed up. Robinsons was a legit hit but is fined the same as Merriweathers whose hit frankly was dirty ( head shot on a guy still in the air ). Harrison's hit wasn't even flagged in game and he gets 75k.
compared to Harrisons & Merriweather....
This is all kinds of ####ed up. Robinsons was a legit hit but is fined the same as Merriweathers whose hit frankly was dirty ( head shot on a guy still in the air ). Harrison's hit wasn't even flagged in game and he gets 75k.
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Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
ESPN #####es about something and Roger Goodell bends over.
Choke
Footballguy
Ray Anderson stated on the hit... that he intentionally hit the shoulder/upper-chest. But as the play goes forward he slides up (defender down) so there is eventual contact on the receivers helmet. Thats why the defender must avoid at all cost. ---------------
Ray was very noncommittal (tap dancing) about the Massaquoai hit where MoMass dropped down at the last moment to try and grab a ball he had dropped. And also was noncommittal about fining ballcarriers who also use their helmet to strike others.
And yet despite his unwillingness to be clear, when given a solid platform -- he still leveled a fine. Despite the WRs being part of the injury issue, which was explained to him. He could have explained it, but he seemed unable to beyond "im your mother thats why!".
two_dollars
Footballguy
The old way of tackling is to put your face mask between the numbers, wrap the legs, and drive upwards. With that textbook form tackle, it is not uncommon for the bottom of a face mask to hit the top of the tackler's helmet. Half the problem would be solved if the NFL made formed mouthpieces mandatory.ScottyFargo said:
two_dollars
Footballguy
Fine, then I want to see WRs rolling around on the ground trying to catch their breath after they get a shoulder in the midsection at full speed.
Copeman
Footballguy
Steelers' Harrison: "It was a legal hit"
Tuesday, October 19, 2010
Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Steelers linebacker James Harrison wants to be heard above the din of public opinion as the full impact of the NFL disciplinary machine seems headed his way.
Harrison should learn Wednesday what punishment, if any, the NFL issues for his high hit that knocked Browns receiver Mohamed Massaquoi from the game Sunday at Heinz Field.
"It was a legal hit,'' Harrison maintained in an interview today with the Post-Gazette, as did Steelers coach Mike Tomlin.
"All you have to do is look at the tape," Harrison said.
He said he was not aiming for Massaquoi's head and actually tried to pull off of him. He believes he's being targeted because of media opinion against him.
"If I get fined it's because anybody out there who has a camera in their face or a pen in their hand is writing their opinion and it's all the same. I just happened to be one of the bigger names who hit somebody last weekend."
A handful of blows to the head in Sunday's NFL games has prompted league officials to react, promising a crackdown with fines and/or suspensions for such hits. Harrison even cited the hit by Patriots defensive back Brandon Meriweather on Baltimore tight end Todd Heap as "a nasty hit.''
"My hit was nowhere near the magnitude of that,'' Harrison said. "That was a nasty hit."
Harrison, a three-time Pro Bowl linebacker and the NFL defensive player of the year in 2008, said defenders like him can't win no matter where they hit a ballcarrier. Hit him high, the league wants to fine them; hit them low, and the offensive player risks a knee injury.
Such was the case in the 2009 season opener at Heinz Field when Harrison hit Tennessee tight end Bo Scaife so hard in the left leg that Scaife not only fumbled, but he did not return to the game. Scaife called the hit a "cheap shot.'' Titans coach Jeff Fisher, co-chair of the NFL competition committee that helps shape the rules, firmly said it was not an illegal hit.
"I hit him low and he ended up injuring his knee and was out for a number of games,'' Harrison said Tuesday. "I guess I'll end up having to take the fine and save someone's career."
Despite Scaife's outcry, Harrison said NFL players would prefer to be hit high than low and risk a knee injury.
"Ask any player in the NFL, they'd say that's dirty,'' Harrison said of a knee shot. "But the NFL says that's a legal play, but you can end his year if not his career. But if you hit him up high and give him a concussion or whatever, they fine you for it. Now you have to start hitting guys low, and what then?
"We've had enough rules on how to tackle a quarterback, now we have to worry about what a guy does at the last second. If he puts himself in harms way, now it's our fault."
Harrison said it's a frustrating dilemma for all defensive players.
"You can't go out and play like it's flag football,'' Harrison said. "If that's what they want to do, let's put flags on everyone.
"It's a physical contact sport; some things are going to happen. You have to evaluate things and see it for what it is and not go on the reaction of people who can't see what they're really looking at."
Tuesday, October 19, 2010
Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Steelers linebacker James Harrison wants to be heard above the din of public opinion as the full impact of the NFL disciplinary machine seems headed his way.
Harrison should learn Wednesday what punishment, if any, the NFL issues for his high hit that knocked Browns receiver Mohamed Massaquoi from the game Sunday at Heinz Field.
"It was a legal hit,'' Harrison maintained in an interview today with the Post-Gazette, as did Steelers coach Mike Tomlin.
"All you have to do is look at the tape," Harrison said.
He said he was not aiming for Massaquoi's head and actually tried to pull off of him. He believes he's being targeted because of media opinion against him.
"If I get fined it's because anybody out there who has a camera in their face or a pen in their hand is writing their opinion and it's all the same. I just happened to be one of the bigger names who hit somebody last weekend."
A handful of blows to the head in Sunday's NFL games has prompted league officials to react, promising a crackdown with fines and/or suspensions for such hits. Harrison even cited the hit by Patriots defensive back Brandon Meriweather on Baltimore tight end Todd Heap as "a nasty hit.''
"My hit was nowhere near the magnitude of that,'' Harrison said. "That was a nasty hit."
Harrison, a three-time Pro Bowl linebacker and the NFL defensive player of the year in 2008, said defenders like him can't win no matter where they hit a ballcarrier. Hit him high, the league wants to fine them; hit them low, and the offensive player risks a knee injury.
Such was the case in the 2009 season opener at Heinz Field when Harrison hit Tennessee tight end Bo Scaife so hard in the left leg that Scaife not only fumbled, but he did not return to the game. Scaife called the hit a "cheap shot.'' Titans coach Jeff Fisher, co-chair of the NFL competition committee that helps shape the rules, firmly said it was not an illegal hit.
"I hit him low and he ended up injuring his knee and was out for a number of games,'' Harrison said Tuesday. "I guess I'll end up having to take the fine and save someone's career."
Despite Scaife's outcry, Harrison said NFL players would prefer to be hit high than low and risk a knee injury.
"Ask any player in the NFL, they'd say that's dirty,'' Harrison said of a knee shot. "But the NFL says that's a legal play, but you can end his year if not his career. But if you hit him up high and give him a concussion or whatever, they fine you for it. Now you have to start hitting guys low, and what then?
"We've had enough rules on how to tackle a quarterback, now we have to worry about what a guy does at the last second. If he puts himself in harms way, now it's our fault."
Harrison said it's a frustrating dilemma for all defensive players.
"You can't go out and play like it's flag football,'' Harrison said. "If that's what they want to do, let's put flags on everyone.
"It's a physical contact sport; some things are going to happen. You have to evaluate things and see it for what it is and not go on the reaction of people who can't see what they're really looking at."
Comer
Footballguy
I never though Lewis was dirty, but he did try to hit you hard and try to knock you out, there is nothing wrong with that IMO. Harrison on the other hand is pretty notorious for being a dirty cheap shot type player IMO.
Choke
Footballguy
The truth is, James Harrison is the hardest hitting player the league has ever seen.As such his hits will always be problematic. And he will be targeted because of that.He simply crushes people even when totally legal and done with perfect football form.And if he ever hits with some doubt in his method, he is liable to kill another man.They should kick him out of the league for the safety of the other players.
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Hang 10
Footballguy
Unreal that the NFL shows no distinction between Merriwheather's and Robinson's hits. 
I mean, those two hits could basically be your examples between a dirty (merriwheather) & a clean hard hit (robinson). Oh, but 150lb Jackson got hurt and 250lb Todd Heap didn't. Ridiculous.
I mean, those two hits could basically be your examples between a dirty (merriwheather) & a clean hard hit (robinson). Oh, but 150lb Jackson got hurt and 250lb Todd Heap didn't. Ridiculous.
Choke
Footballguy
Ex-#######-actly.Unreal that the NFL shows no distinction between Merriwheather's and Robinson's hits.I mean, those two hits could basically be your examples between a dirty (merriwheather) & a clean hard hit (robinson). Oh, but 150lb Jackson got hurt and 250lb Todd Heap didn't. Ridiculous.
Comer
Footballguy
He had 2 dirty hits that knocked players out of the game.
CaptainHook
Footballguy
so i guess what it boils down to is anytime an offensive player gets a head injury the opposing defender is going to be severely penalized.
Choke
Footballguy
His hit on Cribbs is without a doubt perfect football. Even Ray Anderson (director of NFL football operations) stated as much.
But thats to my point. Perfectly clean - he will knock a man out. Dirty? He could kill someone.
He's the hardest hitter we've ever seen.
He also plays with the bad attitude that every defensive coach has tried to instill into his players.
He should be kicked out of the league for the safety of the other players.
amnesiac
beer is good
i guess so.it's a lot like how the legal system works.if you punch another guy in the face, a lot of what you're charged with depends on what happens to the other person.if they just get a bloody lip, or then fall to the ground and hit their head, or if they then end up dying from the resulting head wound, etc.same act, different outcomes. (maybe one of our fbg lawyers can help flesh this idea out a bit, i'm no attorney)this is why Smith was suspended after he broke Boldin's jaw. bad outcome of a play that was likely very similar to lots of other plays with totally different outcomes, but he's suspended.
two_dollars
Footballguy
And the hit on Boldin was a perfect example of the defender having no control over a WR lowering his head at the very last instance, causing the helmet to helmet.. yet the defender pays the price.
Comer
Footballguy
I disagree that the hit on Cribs was anywhere close to clean. Harrison and Meriweather should have been FINED AND SUSPENDED.
Choke
Footballguy
But the NFL stated it was perfectly fine. And you CAN have with helmet-to-helmet contact on a ball carrier.So whats the problem? HE HITS TOO HARD. As such: Kick him out of the league for the safety of other players.
Stillers Jr.
Footballguy
HELMET TO CHIN
No Fine for TJ Ward for trying to break Mendenhall's jaw,??
Oh but I forgot, Mendy wasn't knocked out and TMZSPN didn't play it 1 billion times...
The NFL is as ridiculous as the NHL with their knee-jerk reactions and subjective discipline.
No Fine for TJ Ward for trying to break Mendenhall's jaw,??
Oh but I forgot, Mendy wasn't knocked out and TMZSPN didn't play it 1 billion times...
The NFL is as ridiculous as the NHL with their knee-jerk reactions and subjective discipline.
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