NFL rule clarification (1 Viewer)

[gianmarco]

It's 3rd and 1. The RB gets the ball and rushes for 5 yards (clearly getting the 1st down) when he's hit and the ball comes loose. The ball travels 10 yards backwards, ending up well behind the LOS and is recovered by the offense.

Is it 1st and 10 or is it 4th and 6?

I've looked thru the NFL rulebook pinned at the top and didn't see this covered.

 

[Carver]

It's 3rd and 1. The RB gets the ball and rushes for 5 yards (clearly getting the 1st down) when he's hit and the ball comes loose. The ball travels 10 yards backwards, ending up well behind the LOS and is recovered by the offense.Is it 1st and 10 or is it 4th and 6? I've looked thru the NFL rulebook pinned at the top and didn't see this covered.

i would think it would follow the rules of fumble recoveries and be spotted wherever it was recovered by the offense. Since the Ball carrier was not stopped due to forward progress, the play would be dead at the point of recovery.

 

[greenroom]

As long as possession was not changed it would be 4th down.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Clearly referencing the 4th down play yest.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

I asked a similar question this morning here, but didn't get a definitive response.

Potentially relevant differences between the OP and the situation last night:

- It was 4th down.

- The player recovered his own fumble.

- The player's forward progress was stopped and he was effectively in contact with a defender at all times throughout the fumble and recovery.

If you change the parameters (make it 3rd down, have a different offensive player make the recovery, etc.) you might not get a useful answer. You're better off just asking the question exactly the way it happened: After converting a fourth and 1, a player is hit. In the process of having his progress stopped by the hit, the ball is jarred loose. He regains possession of the ball behind the first down marker. The defender maintained contact the whole time. Is it a first down?

 

[David Yudkin]

I started the other thread . . . and here's an article from Yahoo that labels it a questionable call.

LINK

The officials didn't lose the game for Minnesota, but it's fun to blame them and I'm sure plenty of Vikes fans will, particularly with three calls in overtime. An awful pass interference penalty extended the Saints' game-winning drive (the ball was uncatchable and the PI itself was questionable, at best) and there were two iffy spots given to New Orleans that led to first downs. One was on a crucial spot on a fourth-down dive by Pierre Thomas(notes) The Saints' running back leaped over the pile, stuck the ball past the first-down line, but seemed to lose control of the ball at impact and ended up well before the first-down line.

On one hand forward progress is forward progress, so Thomas clearly got past the first-down line. But the first-down line isn't like the plane of the endzone. Things can happen after Thomas' ball gets to the marker and, in this case, it jostled back in his hands.

There was no way referee Pete Morelli could overturn the call, there wasn't the necessary indisputable visual evidence to do so. But had the ball been spotted a few paces back, he probably wouldn't have been able to overturn it either. It was the definition of a judgment call. And, like on so many other plays on Sunday night, the Vikings didn't quite get the break.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

It's 3rd and 1. The RB gets the ball and rushes for 5 yards (clearly getting the 1st down) when he's hit and the ball comes loose. The ball travels 10 yards backwards, ending up well behind the LOS and is recovered by the offense.Is it 1st and 10 or is it 4th and 6? I've looked thru the NFL rulebook pinned at the top and didn't see this covered.

Fourth and six.

 

[David Yudkin]

I think some people are confusing this type of play with a fumble play in a double change of possession situation. For example . . . on a 3rd and 6, if the offense gains 10 yards and fumbles, the defense recovers and runs 15 yards, and the defender fumbles and the offense regains possession, it's 1st and 10 offense even with a net loss of -5 yards. To clarify even further, it would be a first down for the offense regardless of whether the team made the first down before the fumble or not.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

It's 3rd and 1. The RB gets the ball and rushes for 5 yards (clearly getting the 1st down) when he's hit and the ball comes loose. The ball travels 10 yards backwards, ending up well behind the LOS and is recovered by the offense.Is it 1st and 10 or is it 4th and 6? I've looked thru the NFL rulebook pinned at the top and didn't see this covered.

The only way this would be a first down is if the defense picked up the ball and gained possession of it. Then somehow they fumbled the ball and the original offensive team recovered it.I believe in the example you gave, there was never a possession change so the play for the offensive team never ended until they recovered the ball behind the line of scrimmage.4th and 6

 

[AB in DC]

I asked a similar question this morning here, but didn't get a definitive response.

Potentially relevant differences between the OP and the situation last night:

- It was 4th down.

- The player recovered his own fumble.

- The player's forward progress was stopped and he was effectively in contact with a defender at all times throughout the fumble and recovery.

You forgot:- The play was never ruled to be a fumble at all.

 

[AB in DC]

Page six of he rulebook:

Note 3: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be consideredloss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there hasbeen a loss of possession.

 

[Da Guru]

I was never a fan of sticking the ball out to break the plain. The body and ball should end up on the ground over the first down mark or end zone.

 

[The Kerminator]

Page six of he rulebook:

Note 3: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be consideredloss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there hasbeen a loss of possession.

This would not apply to the scenario painted by the OP. It would apply to the situation in the MIN/NO game. Good posting.

 

[Pnishthm]

Page six of he rulebook:

Note 3: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be consideredloss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there hasbeen a loss of possession.

Well this should put this to bed