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Non-serpentine drafts (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Arnold. S
- Start date
3rd Round Reversal drafts are only there to help all the poor drafters who get stuck at the back end of a draft. I have noticed over the years, that it has been around, that it's almost always those at the end of the draft order who brings up the idea of switching to 3RR.
For those owners who are in leagues that uses the standings from the previous season for draft order placement and continue to make the playoffs each year shows that the normal serpentine style is fine. The 3RR style draft is suppose to help even the playing field by 'weakening' the early drafters, who get top studs. But in fact it greatly helps those at the end of the draft who know how to draft.
Now if the league is using 3RR and is a PPR league then the benefit to the back-end drafters is huge! Because now not only can they get two top-tier WRs, but also get an earlier selection on a RB.
Anyone who promotes 3RR is only doing so because they are a lousy drafter in my eyes. (regardless of where they are drafting this year, as they are only looking to future, and that they may be at the later spots next season)
Auction drafts are the fairiest form of selecting players for all the team.
Von
For those owners who are in leagues that uses the standings from the previous season for draft order placement and continue to make the playoffs each year shows that the normal serpentine style is fine. The 3RR style draft is suppose to help even the playing field by 'weakening' the early drafters, who get top studs. But in fact it greatly helps those at the end of the draft who know how to draft.
Now if the league is using 3RR and is a PPR league then the benefit to the back-end drafters is huge! Because now not only can they get two top-tier WRs, but also get an earlier selection on a RB.
Anyone who promotes 3RR is only doing so because they are a lousy drafter in my eyes. (regardless of where they are drafting this year, as they are only looking to future, and that they may be at the later spots next season)
Auction drafts are the fairiest form of selecting players for all the team.
Von
Captain Hook
Footballguy
And that is a very poor position to take - 3RR or Banzai or some other variations off a straight serpentine draft were brought about to level the playing field and reduce the inherent greater value of the first few picks in a serpentine draftsThere are numerous articles (very good series by Jeff Pasquino a few years ago that should still be listed) about the value of draft picks - just because YOU may not like any change to the draft order does not make it wrong...........and actually those interested in fairer drafts for EVERY person in the draft espouse the change.VonRomig said:
I do agree of course that Auction drafts are the best answer - everyone can have whichever players THEY want - regardless of draft position....if they want to pay for that player.
PVH
Captain Hook
Footballguy
Good points on draft position and success, ....BUT your comment on Banzai is way off baseStandard Serpentine - presume everyone knows 1-12; 12-1; 1-12; 12- etcReversing only 3rd Round = 1-12; 12-1; 12-1; 12-1; 1-12; 12-1; etc3RR (as used by NFFC) is reversing rest of the rounds starting with three = 1-12; 12-1; 12-1; 1-12; 12-1; 1-12 etcBonzai is reversing ALL rounds after the first = 1-12; 12-1 for every round for the rest of the draft.....and IIRC correctly from Paquino's math in the article based on value awarded to each pick, the #1 pick still has a slight advantage in ALL methods to correct the imbalance of a normal serpentine draft
parrot
Footballguy
This is how we do my 14 teamer.
Captain Hook
Footballguy
Sorry Choke, I stand corrected - misremembered the more drastic change as Banzai
....and I do like the Banzai format - but no contest I know has adopted that. At LEAST with NFFC you can couple the advantage of (their) 3RR with the KDS (draft spot preferences) to make a better attempt to get the spots you like
....and I do like the Banzai format - but no contest I know has adopted that. At LEAST with NFFC you can couple the advantage of (their) 3RR with the KDS (draft spot preferences) to make a better attempt to get the spots you like
Captain Hook
Footballguy
ROFL - what would happen to your draft when the guy who started with 1.01 drew 5.01 (much less 3.01)There is/was a mathematical method of balancing all the draft picks but it means every round follows a different sequence and for some leagues with (trying to be PC).....mathematically/instructionally challenged might be a nightmaresomething like1-12 and 12-17-12/6-1 and 1-6/12-78-1/12-7 and 7-12/1-86-12/1-5 and 5-12/1-4with all spots having the first pick at some point and the picks evening out...........if I find the stuff from years ago while cleaning out the garage next month I will post it........or there is one guy who may still have it - sure some of the math genies here could figure one out
parrot
Footballguy
So you're ROFL and asking basically what would happen if it turned out just like a serpentine?
Captain Hook
Footballguy
YES because you are doing something to supposedly randomize this meaning you don't want the same draft order and want better/fairer draft spots and if/when it happens you know someone in the room will scream ......HE just had the 1st pick last round
parrot
Footballguy
And that's when you explain to them what the term "random" means. Everyone understands it's the luck of the draw every two rounds.
Fight For Your First Round Pick + Random Snake method
Here's a different draft setup I picked up from an office league... they actually have a draft order selection party, a few weeks in advance of the draft. Basically you draw out of a hat or pick a card for your spot, but it is paired off by rounds: rounds 1/2, 3/4, 5/6, etc.
Round 1 & 2... you might get pick 1.06 then 2.07.
Round 3 & 4... 3.01 & 4.12
Rounds 5 & 6 , 5.12 & 6.01
It snakes but every 2 rounds you are in a different spot on the snake. So you never really draft in front of or behind the same teams, makes for interesting position runs.
So for the keeper league I commish, we use this order with some variations:
Round 1 == decided by previous season playoffs -- you actually have to WIN OUT in the Consolation bracket to get the #1 overall pick. Lose your first game then play the other losing team for the #3 / #4 pick game. Basically any team that doesnt make money in the playoffs their last game determines their 1st draft pick. The champ has the last pick, 2nd place has 11th, 3rd place has 10th pick, 4th place 9th.
Round 2 is your one keeper player. Everyone keeps a player basically.. Cause if you dont keep a player, you get this 2nd round pick which is basically the 24th overall pick. This year we have one guy who might actually not keep a player (Greg Jennings is his best option on ADP) so he gets a 2nd round pick, so if he wants to build his team around RB-RB this makes sense.
Round 3 & 4, 5 & 6, 7 & 8,... 17 & 18 -- random serpentine. Since everyone is all over the country now, we use MFL to randomly serpentine the draft every other round. In the past we would get together and draw cards for rounds 3/4, 5/6, 7/8 etc.
In 2009 here are my draft picks:
1.11 (2nd place in 2008)
2nd Round == Adrian Peterson
3.11 & 4.02 (randomly got these picks)
5.03 & 6.10 (again, random every 2 rounds)
7.06 & 8.07
9.05 & 10.08
11.12 & 12.01 (nice back to back, i could wait this long and grab a QB platoon here!)
13.12 & 14.01
15.11 & 16.02
17.12 & 18.01
It's not for everybody and i wouldn't try this with live online drafting unless you are using MFL, or doing an offline draft then entering picks.
Here's a different draft setup I picked up from an office league... they actually have a draft order selection party, a few weeks in advance of the draft. Basically you draw out of a hat or pick a card for your spot, but it is paired off by rounds: rounds 1/2, 3/4, 5/6, etc.
Round 1 & 2... you might get pick 1.06 then 2.07.
Round 3 & 4... 3.01 & 4.12
Rounds 5 & 6 , 5.12 & 6.01
It snakes but every 2 rounds you are in a different spot on the snake. So you never really draft in front of or behind the same teams, makes for interesting position runs.
So for the keeper league I commish, we use this order with some variations:
Round 1 == decided by previous season playoffs -- you actually have to WIN OUT in the Consolation bracket to get the #1 overall pick. Lose your first game then play the other losing team for the #3 / #4 pick game. Basically any team that doesnt make money in the playoffs their last game determines their 1st draft pick. The champ has the last pick, 2nd place has 11th, 3rd place has 10th pick, 4th place 9th.
Round 2 is your one keeper player. Everyone keeps a player basically.. Cause if you dont keep a player, you get this 2nd round pick which is basically the 24th overall pick. This year we have one guy who might actually not keep a player (Greg Jennings is his best option on ADP) so he gets a 2nd round pick, so if he wants to build his team around RB-RB this makes sense.
Round 3 & 4, 5 & 6, 7 & 8,... 17 & 18 -- random serpentine. Since everyone is all over the country now, we use MFL to randomly serpentine the draft every other round. In the past we would get together and draw cards for rounds 3/4, 5/6, 7/8 etc.
In 2009 here are my draft picks:
1.11 (2nd place in 2008)
2nd Round == Adrian Peterson
3.11 & 4.02 (randomly got these picks)
5.03 & 6.10 (again, random every 2 rounds)
7.06 & 8.07
9.05 & 10.08
11.12 & 12.01 (nice back to back, i could wait this long and grab a QB platoon here!)
13.12 & 14.01
15.11 & 16.02
17.12 & 18.01
It's not for everybody and i wouldn't try this with live online drafting unless you are using MFL, or doing an offline draft then entering picks.
Jeff Pasquino
Footballguy
Here's the main article and you can navigate around to 10-, 14- and 16- team league articles.Third Round Reversal of Fortune
Redgun
Footballguy
Trying to get my league to switch to Bonzai Draft, But as usual people hate change.
It's a Local Redraft PPR league. We had 12 owners last year. 2 are not returning, so we're just going w/10 this year.
Some are saying, if we still had 12 teams that then they could see how it would help balance out the teams. But since we 're going w/ 10 there's no point for the change. What do you guys say? Any argument here?
It's a Local Redraft PPR league. We had 12 owners last year. 2 are not returning, so we're just going w/10 this year.
Some are saying, if we still had 12 teams that then they could see how it would help balance out the teams. But since we 're going w/ 10 there's no point for the change. What do you guys say? Any argument here?
The whole 3RR thing has nothing to do with making it fair for those drafting at the bottom. It is trying to punish the number one pick, because he gets the so-called Super Stud. It can't be because the early pick drafters always win the league year after year... in fact winners come from every spot.
In most of my leagues it is actually the same small group of players who keep making into the playoffs every year, with one or two of the others making a surprise appearance now and then. This is regardless of draft location. It's because some people can draft and some can not. 3RR is just a silly way of trying to even this out, because it takes a better drafter to draft late. Anyone can draft Adrian Peterson, Michael Turner, et al...
The problem is people think you have an unfair advantage just because you draft early and get the hyped-up studs of that season. But history shows that the top 5 picks can mean nothing to a team, or their chances:
pre-2006 VBD rankings
(post-season VBD rank in parenthesis)
1 Larry Johnson (2)
2 Shaun Alexander (78)
3 LaDainian Tomlinson (1)
4 Clinton Portis (77)
5 Peyton Manning (4)
Post season rankings...
List to cover the Top 5 RBs
1 LaDainian Tomlinson
2 Larry Johnson
3 Steven Jackson
4 Peyton Manning
5 Frank Gore
6 Willie Parker
***
pre-2007 VBD rankings
1 LaDainian Tomlinson (2)
2 Steven Jackson (42)
3 Larry Johnson (121)
4 Frank Gore (30)
5 Joseph Addai (10)
Post season rankings...
List to cover the Top 5 RB
1 Tom Brady
2 LaDainian Tomlinson
3 Randy Moss
4 Brian Westbrook
5 Tony Romo
6 Terrell Owens
7 Braylon Edwards
8 Adrian Peterson
9 Clinton Portis
***
Pre-2008 VBD rankings
1 LaDainian Tomlinson (15)
2 Adrian Peterson (10)
3 Steven Jackson (33)
4 Brian Westbrook (19)
5 Joseph Addai (111)
Post season rankings...
List to cover the Top 5 RB
1 DeAngelo Williams
2 Michael Turner
3 Drew Brees
4 Adrian Peterson
5 Larry Fitzgerald
6 Philip Rivers
7 Aaron Rodgers
8 Matt Forte
9 Thomas Jones
***
I could have gone more years in the past, but I didn't want to waste my time. As those blinded by their own beliefs in 3RR will ignore any evidence regardless. But as you can see, grabbing the top picks can be just as hazardous as grabbing from any other position. So why try to make things "even and fair" for bottom drafters, when their is no real overall benefit.
The 'benefit' from drafting at the top is if you had pick up Adrian Peterson in the first round and then Drew Brees and Michael Turner in the second and third rounds. But that is not just because you picked at the top or even luck, that is because you drafted correctly at the position you had.
People can draft correctly from any draft spot, if they know how to draft. The problem is that poeple who don't know how to draft from any spot, tend to make some major mistakes early in the draft and ruin their team. 3RR is just a crutch to try and help those lacking draft skills, who are at the bottom end, by giving them an early 3rd round selection... try to make up for the mistakes they are bound to make in the first two rounds.
"You got stuck near the end of the draft! Oh My! Oh, you're a lousy drafter? Don't worry, we use 3RR to help you, you poor man."
"You got an early pick in the draft? Good for you. Oh you're a lousy drafter? Who cares, you get a top stud!!! And just because we don't get any top studs and can't draft correctly from the other spots we are going to 3RR... so there!"
Now the rankings for the 2009 season
1 Adrian Peterson
2 Michael Turner
3 Maurice Jones-Drew
4 Matt Forte
5 Drew Brees
So who here is going to fall flat on their backside just as so many others in the top 5 have done in the past.
Von
In most of my leagues it is actually the same small group of players who keep making into the playoffs every year, with one or two of the others making a surprise appearance now and then. This is regardless of draft location. It's because some people can draft and some can not. 3RR is just a silly way of trying to even this out, because it takes a better drafter to draft late. Anyone can draft Adrian Peterson, Michael Turner, et al...
The problem is people think you have an unfair advantage just because you draft early and get the hyped-up studs of that season. But history shows that the top 5 picks can mean nothing to a team, or their chances:
pre-2006 VBD rankings
(post-season VBD rank in parenthesis)
1 Larry Johnson (2)
2 Shaun Alexander (78)
3 LaDainian Tomlinson (1)
4 Clinton Portis (77)
5 Peyton Manning (4)
Post season rankings...
List to cover the Top 5 RBs
1 LaDainian Tomlinson
2 Larry Johnson
3 Steven Jackson
4 Peyton Manning
5 Frank Gore
6 Willie Parker
***
pre-2007 VBD rankings
1 LaDainian Tomlinson (2)
2 Steven Jackson (42)
3 Larry Johnson (121)
4 Frank Gore (30)
5 Joseph Addai (10)
Post season rankings...
List to cover the Top 5 RB
1 Tom Brady
2 LaDainian Tomlinson
3 Randy Moss
4 Brian Westbrook
5 Tony Romo
6 Terrell Owens
7 Braylon Edwards
8 Adrian Peterson
9 Clinton Portis
***
Pre-2008 VBD rankings
1 LaDainian Tomlinson (15)
2 Adrian Peterson (10)
3 Steven Jackson (33)
4 Brian Westbrook (19)
5 Joseph Addai (111)
Post season rankings...
List to cover the Top 5 RB
1 DeAngelo Williams
2 Michael Turner
3 Drew Brees
4 Adrian Peterson
5 Larry Fitzgerald
6 Philip Rivers
7 Aaron Rodgers
8 Matt Forte
9 Thomas Jones
***
I could have gone more years in the past, but I didn't want to waste my time. As those blinded by their own beliefs in 3RR will ignore any evidence regardless. But as you can see, grabbing the top picks can be just as hazardous as grabbing from any other position. So why try to make things "even and fair" for bottom drafters, when their is no real overall benefit.
The 'benefit' from drafting at the top is if you had pick up Adrian Peterson in the first round and then Drew Brees and Michael Turner in the second and third rounds. But that is not just because you picked at the top or even luck, that is because you drafted correctly at the position you had.
People can draft correctly from any draft spot, if they know how to draft. The problem is that poeple who don't know how to draft from any spot, tend to make some major mistakes early in the draft and ruin their team. 3RR is just a crutch to try and help those lacking draft skills, who are at the bottom end, by giving them an early 3rd round selection... try to make up for the mistakes they are bound to make in the first two rounds.
"You got stuck near the end of the draft! Oh My! Oh, you're a lousy drafter? Don't worry, we use 3RR to help you, you poor man."
"You got an early pick in the draft? Good for you. Oh you're a lousy drafter? Who cares, you get a top stud!!! And just because we don't get any top studs and can't draft correctly from the other spots we are going to 3RR... so there!"
Now the rankings for the 2009 season
1 Adrian Peterson
2 Michael Turner
3 Maurice Jones-Drew
4 Matt Forte
5 Drew Brees
So who here is going to fall flat on their backside just as so many others in the top 5 have done in the past.
Von
