Burning Sensation
Footballguy
My only point was you can not judge Bush's future success based on the fact he was pulled in a short yardage situation. Also, are you saying Reggie Bush was not a great college football player?!?!?!
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Norm Chow on Reggie Bush (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter the hairy scotsman
- Start date
I think it is one indicator. Maybe not a major one but it doesnt mean nothing.
I hope that was sarcastic. For anyone who missed it: yes Bush was a great college player and is a great prospect. No he is not one of the elite in NCAA history and the numbers back that up.PS: this is a good representation of my whole problem with this conversation. Just being great doesnt make you 'elite', as in one of the very best. I think Bush will probably be a great NFL player. That doesnt mean he will be elite. For some reason around draft time a lot of people cant seem to grasp that distinction. Every year the wheel gets reinvented.
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Burning Sensation
Footballguy
He is no JJ Arrington, thats for sure
Seriously though, i agree the Bush hype is way out of hand right now. The way things are going, it seems the only thing that can stop him is a chunk of rock from Krypton. However, numbers or not(although the only number he was lacking was carries), dumb coaching decision or not, i am not sure i have ever seen a RB, or any player for that matter better than Reggie Bush.Disclaimer: I thought Peter Warrick was one of the best players i had ever seen his final year at Florida state.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Well then, by your logic Mr. Faulk won't be getting into the hall I suppose. For the 100th time, during Marshall Faulk's 2000 season where he went for over 2000 total yards, scored 26 touchdowns, won the NFL MVP, and led his team to the super bowl he averaged *gasp* around 15 carries per game........FIFTEEN.Yes, Bush split time at RB in college, but USC used it's RBs enough for two RBs to have full workloads. Once you factor in Reggies receiving and returning, he actually averaged roughly the same number of touches per game this year as even some of the biggest workhorse NFL RBs did, and he did it while staying quite healthy.
Are you really trying to make that connection? That's not what his logic implies at all. To be one of the greatest at a position (not saying that Bush is yet by any means, just that he still could be) that doesn't mean you have to be the best at every aspect of that position. If Barry Sanders were on a team with Jerome Bettis and they had 4th and inches, you can bet every dollar you own that Sanders is going to be on the sideline there, but that doesn't mean he wasn't great. Hell, TJ Duckett would probably get the nod there over Barry, and Duckett is no LenDale...Heck if Pittsburgh had a 4th and 15 they wouldn't have Bettis in there because he's not their best RB in that situation. But that doesn't mean he's not headed straight to the hall of fame.
Or I guess we'll never see Shaq in basketball's hall, since he has been pulled down the stretch of some close games to be replaced by a better free throw shooter.
Sigh....you're just not getting it. With the amount USC used its RBs this past year, NO rb could have been an every down back on that team. No PERSON could have. USC's RBs averaged well over 40 touches per game....FORTY. Even the biggest workload guys in the NFL averaged around 26 or 27. NFL MVP and TD record-setter Shaun Alexander averaged 24, Bush averaged right around 22.
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the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
Common ground for Matuski and me.Never thought I'd see the day.
Yeh. But on a team THAT ONLY RAN THE BALL 15 TIMES A GAME. He was on the field the whole time catching 1000 yards worth of passes. To suggest Marshall Faulk wasnt a full time back is ludicrous. In 2000 he averaged 24 touches a game. Same, as you said, as NFL record setter Shaun Alexander.
I understand that. We've been through this. re-read the thread.
Lets stop throwing around 'abouts' and look at the real numbers if you insist. But lets keep it apples to apples and look at college seasons. This season Bush averaged 15.4 carries and 2.8 receptions per game 2.2 kick returns, and 1.4 punt returns. Thats a total of 21.8 touches per game. Compare that to Tomlinson in 2000 (31.4 touches per game), or this year's other rushing leaders: Deangelo Williams (29.2 touches), Garrett Wolf (29.22), Jerome Harrison (30.2), Laurence Maroney (27.1 touches)To argue Bush has carried anything like a featured back load to date is absurd. Can he do it? I have no idea and neither does anybody else pimping the guy as the next HOFer in waiting. As ive said 50 TIMES, Bush is and has been great, but that doesnt make him elite. Next year somebody else will be great (probly not quite as great) but they wont be elite either in all likelihood.
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
Buehner is right, and I can't believe this is coming up again, but please, all "touches" are not equal. Esp in the NFL, 15 rushes, 3 receptions, and 4 returns per game does not = 22 rushes per game (+ receptions, in most cases).
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FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
How many kick returns exactly have you watched? Trying to say a kick return takes less out of you than a rushing attempt is foolish...who me a guy with 250 kick returns on a season and I'll show you a guy in a wheelchair the rest of his life.Apples to apples you say? Fine. Faulk 23.5 touches per game the year he won the MVP, scored 26 TDs, etc. Bush this year? 21.8......I wouldn't exactly call 1.7 any groundbreaking difference. And sure Faulk caught a lot of passes, but how much of Bush have you seen exactly? The guy catches plenty of passes.
You're right, Faulk was a full time RB at 23.5 touches per game, so why wasn't Bush's 22 touches per game a full-time workload? Last time I checked Houston wasn't exactly known as a pound it out, run the ball 40 times a game team..
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
Last time I checked, Houston was behind all the time.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Which is actually probably good for a RB that catches the ball out of the backfield like Bush does, so what the heck is your point? LT's best year was when San Diego went 4-12, in which he put up 2400 yards, 17 TDs, and 100 catches. Since San Diego got better, LTs catches have cut in half (53 and 51 the next two years), so unless you were making a pro-Bush arguement you really made a point against yourself here...Go back a few years before LT was a consensus top 3 guy and you'll remember arguements of people saying that LT just racked up most of his points catching the ball in garbage time, which stands to look like a pretty good scenario for Bush to do the same.
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the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
He might be referring to the order of even just those 5 guys.How do you know which games he has seen?
Jason Wood
Zoo York
I don't necessarily agree with the order, but it's NOT crazy talk. Bush was, in my mind, one of the best collegiate offensive players I've ever had the privelege to see. Does that mean he'll be an NFL megastar? Certainly not, but he absolutely deserves to be recognized among the likes of Sanders, Jackson and Walker, IMHO.
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
But not Dickerson? To you, was Eric the best of the other 4? Some would say yes. I wouldn't. Dickerson was great at SMU, but as a pro, he was amazing.Do you think putting Barry Sanders 5th is a little crazy? Remember, this is based on college peformance only, & real achievements...no potential.
All those guys are some of the greats of the college game, but what Sanders did was phenomenal.
To me, it's a little crazy not to have Sanders at or near the top of that list.
But, hey, everyone's entitled to their own opinion.
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I just cant mention Bush in the same breath as the others, especially Sanders. All those guys owned their teams. All you had to do was stop Walker or Tomlinson (who i would have in Bush's place, but at #4) but nobody could.
Reggie Bush, I dont want this taken the wrong way.. but he benefited from the fact that USC has this phenominal NFL level passing game, another great 1st round caliber RB to eat up carries, and he didnt have to have near the number of touches- much less rushes- those other guys lived on. There is a huge difference for a defense that has to worry about Matt Leinart throwing 5 TDs and than here comes a fresh Bush to crack off a 70 yard run or catch, and a Barry Sanders who the whole defense is geared up to stop and he just humiliates them. And AGAIN, im not saying this is Bush's fault or that he doesnt have the talent to do that kind of thing. Im saying he never had the chance to prove it in that kind of context. Aside from yards per carry, Bush doesnt have a single top 5 record in season or game.
I think Bo Jackson was in a similar situation (although his limited resume was due to injuries, not coaching decisions), but in my opinion Jackson just crushed defenses and was unstoppable. If i had to choose a healhy Jackson in his prime or a Bush to carry a team, Jackson would get my nod every time. I'm sure people disagree.
Reggie Bush, I dont want this taken the wrong way.. but he benefited from the fact that USC has this phenominal NFL level passing game, another great 1st round caliber RB to eat up carries, and he didnt have to have near the number of touches- much less rushes- those other guys lived on. There is a huge difference for a defense that has to worry about Matt Leinart throwing 5 TDs and than here comes a fresh Bush to crack off a 70 yard run or catch, and a Barry Sanders who the whole defense is geared up to stop and he just humiliates them. And AGAIN, im not saying this is Bush's fault or that he doesnt have the talent to do that kind of thing. Im saying he never had the chance to prove it in that kind of context. Aside from yards per carry, Bush doesnt have a single top 5 record in season or game.
I think Bo Jackson was in a similar situation (although his limited resume was due to injuries, not coaching decisions), but in my opinion Jackson just crushed defenses and was unstoppable. If i had to choose a healhy Jackson in his prime or a Bush to carry a team, Jackson would get my nod every time. I'm sure people disagree.
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
I agree Buehner. Another example would be Ricky Williams in his junior year. I'm not making a case for him, or anyone else to be on "the list". We'll let it stand as it is, because it's merely a list of guys he saw play. Anyway, I've always contended that Ricky's junior year was his best college year, not his senior year, during which he won the Heisman. During Ricky's jr year, the Texas D was horrific, and Texas went 4-7. They had no offensive weapons to speak of other than Ricky. Opponent's Ds were coming into the game with only one goal: Stop RW. Don't let him beat us. They loaded up the box, blitzed hard and often, and dared Texas to throw, because they didn't respect our passing game, and rightly so. Ricky, healthy or banged up, mostly the latter, ran through em like a hot knife through butter...en route to leading the nation in rushing, just as he did his senior year. He averaged over 29 rushes per game and 6.3 ypc during his junior & senior years, amassing 4017 yards and 52 TDs rushing.
Balance in an offense is truly a potent thing, esp when it's wielded by a playcaller with a clue. On the flipside, when you're one-dimensional, you're truly playing handicapped. That's why these kind of performances we're bringing up are so remarkable.
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Dave Baker
Damn glad to meet you
I personally think all those things hurt him. In theory, your post makes sense. But after seeing Bush play as much as I did (I haven't missed a USC game in many moons), I think his talent is off the charts and that he could have put up amazing numbers on almost any other team. Because of that, those thinkgs you mentioned (Leinart, White, etc.) actually hurt Bush because he didn't have the chance that Sanders, LT et al had to out up monster numbers.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Bush was about as highly touted a prospect as there's been in a long, long time. He "took one for the team" by going to SC and sharing touches.
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
Yeah...he's "Mr. Selfless".
I think you guys are absolutely right. But the point is we dont 'know' as much about Bush as we might (quite aside from the greatest player argument, which is really subjective anyway). That could be a problem for Bush. Can he be a featured LT2 kind of back and be the best he can be? Dont know. Of course you never really know, but we dont even really have a good idea or any reason to speculate. We do probably know that he should be spectatular as a Westbrook style back- ie 15-20 touches a game at a variety of rolls. He could be Turbo-Westbrook and be a great RB2 and fantastic addition to any team, but he would have to be on the right team willing to use him accordingly. In tandem with a Dominick Davis could be spectacular, but again it would require a coaching philosophy ok with that (and a DD ok with that). But if he is to be a true RB1 stud, top level talent he will probably have to be featured, and we dont really know how he is suited to that.
