Griffin gains 2.6 ypc against JAX while Bell has 4.0 ypc in very limited duty.More importantly, Griffin has 6 carries for -1 yard in 3 drives in the 4th quarter & fumbles the ball on what would have been the winning drive for DEN (please don't assign blame to Plummer - the ball was delievred a bit low, but it was delivered in Griffin's midsection. A pro should easily handle that handoff).Even more importantly, the game could have impact in deciding wildcard positions, and KC lost yesterday, which would have allowed DEN to open a 2 game lead on its top rival in the AFC West. That fumble was a gigantic play, but I feel the 6 carries for negative total yardage in the 4th quarter is just as huge. He couldn't create any yardage for himself at all - which of course I'll attribute to his size.It should be interesting how this week plays out. I think Griffin will getthe start at SD, but I also think he's going to be on a very short leash & that Bell will get significantly more work.Major disaster yesterday for DEN.
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Now the DEN RB situation gets stickier (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter P Boy
- Start date
Griffin's play wasnt the problem (66y rushing, 29y receiving, 5 first downs), Jacksonville has shut down better running backs than he is. Denver was going to win this ball game and the consensus would have been that Griffin played a mediocre game against the best rush defense in the NFL, but did what was needed to win the game.
But Griffin fumbled again in a critical situation. Plummer was equally responsible as it is the QBs responsibility to make the good exchange, but that is immaterial at this point. I've said all along that the one thing that would get Griffin in trouble on this team was fumbling, and this is the second game threatening/costing fumble in 2 games. That is what is hurting Q and could cost him his job. Its still Q's job, but less secure than it was for certain. Look to see more T Bell next week if Denver starts spanking San Diego.
But Griffin fumbled again in a critical situation. Plummer was equally responsible as it is the QBs responsibility to make the good exchange, but that is immaterial at this point. I've said all along that the one thing that would get Griffin in trouble on this team was fumbling, and this is the second game threatening/costing fumble in 2 games. That is what is hurting Q and could cost him his job. Its still Q's job, but less secure than it was for certain. Look to see more T Bell next week if Denver starts spanking San Diego.
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GoNads
Footballguy
From hte Broncos website:.... "It just looked like Jake got it back there and it looked like it hit Q's arm as he was putting it in his stomach," Head Coach Mike Shanahan said. "It never looked like he had control of it."He never got it from the quarterback," Shanahan later added. "Why, I'm not really sure. I looked on the replay and he never seemed to get it. I'm not sure if Jake stumbled or it was exactly what did happen but it's a little different when you have the ball in there and somebody strips it as opposed to a guy missing the quarterback exchange."Plummer absorbed his share of the blame after the loss."It's something we work on every day in practice," he said. "Both of us are at fault."The idea that the handoff wouldn't be completed seemed inconceivable to kicker Jason Elam, who was so certain he'd have the chance to kick the game-winning field goal that he was away from the sidelines, ready to sprint on the field as the final seconds ticked down towards a chance at the game-winning points."I had already taken a couple of steps onto the field," Elam said. "I knew they were just lining it up, and we didn't have any timeouts. It was a hurry-up field-goal situation, where we had to get out there and get it off before time ran out. I took a couple of steps on the field and saw the ball squirt loose."Kicking Griffin when he was down was not the order of the sideline and locker room in the moments following the fumble. Encouragement, on the other hand, was the norm."You just tell him that we're going to keep riding him. He's our stud back there," Lynch said. "We need him to just forget about it and come back. It's going to be tough on him but this is a football team. We win together, we lose together."And to narrow the game to one play was to overlook the other struggles throughout the game as the Broncos failed to convert 12 of 18 third downs, had a 51-yard field goal fall short and saw a goal-to-go situation late in the first half end in a field goal."You can go back to a lot of things," Shanahan said. "It's not just one thing that did it. You score six points on offense, that kind of sums it up. You've got to score more than six points. We had many opportunities throughout the day to score some points....I don't get the notion that they are down on Quentin or assigning him blame ofr the loss. Their great O-line couldn't open any holes for him up the middle. I just don't see the short leash after Shannahan was gushing over Q last week. Then again, maybe he is that fickle... I just don't see it though.
First off, what Shanahan says to the press & what he does with the team behind closed doors are 2 different things completely. He has some of the leat usable information of any HC in the game.Secondly, I don't think DEN lost the game on the Griffin fumble. I think they lost the game in the 1st quarter when they had repeated 2 & short and 3rd & short to sustain drives and couldn't keep the drives going. That cost them probably 10-17 points, which would have allowed them to dictate the entire pace & structure of the game from the 1st quarter on.That being said, there is no quetion that the Griffin fumble was, in fact, huge. Plummer and the O had done enough to salvage a game that the DEN D dominated, and Griffin did piss it away on that play. So that does make his play a very high impact, & more importantly, a high visibility play. But like I said, Griffin gave the DEN absolutely nothing (in fact, less than nothing) in the fourth quarter, and had to rely on Plummer to pull out the game. That looks like a recipe for disaster to me this season if it continues.
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Power Monster
The Midnight Stalker
What a bunch of bunk!SD @ home next week is just what the doctor ordered!Q is going to to take a stick to that defense BIG TIME!
superbowlchampion
Footballguy
EXACTLY. Q will be fine. He just added his name to this list:RB's rushing yards against JAX:2003:S Davis 22 for 111 (last 100 yard game against JAX)Travis Henry 21- 26 (Yes, 21 carries for 26 yards, but 3 TDs)E James 27 - 76Domanick Davis 16 - 53L Tomlinson 10 -38 R williams 19 - 75 E George 27- 88Jamal Lewis 21 - 68 (on his way to 2000+ yards)E James 15 - 44E George 20 - 73C Martin 20 -56M Pittman 10 - 60T Hollings 18 - 19A Smith 17 - 39D McAllister 21 - 50 TJ Duckett 22 - 962004:Travis Henry 23 - 75Q 25 - 66
Mik789fl
Footballguy
Ahman Green fumbled on the goal line yesterday,will we see Tony Foscher start the next game for Green Bay? Edge fumbled twice in the red zone in week one,I believe he started in week 2 for the Colts. Clinton Portis fumbled at a crucial time against the Giants yesterday costing his team points. Do you think he'll start for the 'Skins next week? I'm not comparing Griffin to any of these starting RB's....yet. But he's the starter in Denver and will be unless he's injured. The Bell owners are pipe dreaming,he'll get more carries but it'll be to give Griffin a rest not to replace him. Shanahan will want to see how Griffin bounces back from a poor performance,which,by the way,all of the above backs have had,numerous times. He will bounce back next week and will start the rest of the season and put up very nice #'s. imop.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
...and then we will have a "Q is back" thread.One step forward, two steps back Pony. Every ill in Denver is Q's and every blessing Plummers. 23/39 250y 0td 0 ints is hardly a credible performance. You also fail to mention Bell getting stuffed on a 3rd and 1, so maybe Jacksonville's defense had something to do with it?If you look at the game as a whole Plummer and Griffin had about the same type of mediocre (at best) game, and then combined to put the ball on the carpet in the 4th quarter. Appropriate. This loss was Denver's offense's responsibility as a whole, although as I said, the fumbling issue needs to be monitored very closely. I would say at this point that if Q fumbles early in a given game he could be replaced very rapidly.
bigbrownbag
Footballguy
why even waste your time arguing with this guy?
JAA
CEO of the Barefoots
Footballguy
That is exactly what you are doing!!!Quentin Griffin looked all world vs. one of the worst rush defenses in the league and below average vs. on of the best.Thinking that Q will hold this job is pretty optimistic as he has looked more ordinary than stellar thus far in his short career.
Since the Jax D hasnt allowed a 100 yard rusher since week 1 of last year I guess every team they played should've had there starting RB replaced the week after. I was hoping for 80 yards and a Score by Q but I dont think he did any worse than any other RB that has played Jax.
No you aren't comparing those players, but you are comparing those situations....and I believe you are wrong about that. All of those RBs are firmly entrenched as the starter.Q went into training camp with the RB position on the line. The rookie, Bell, got injured, thus practically handing the job to Q. It remains to be seen if the coaches really like Bell better or not. Q is not the unquestioned starter. Things are very much up in the air.
CEO of the Barefoots
Footballguy
No you aren't comparing those players, but you are comparing those situations....and I believe you are wrong about that. All of those RBs are firmly entrenched as the starter.Q went into training camp with the RB position on the line. The rookie, Bell, got injured, thus practically handing the job to Q. It remains to be seen if the coaches really like Bell better or not. Q is not the unquestioned starter. Things are very much up in the air.
LOL! You just did compare them & put Griffin on the same plane as Edge, A Green, & Portis.And people call my arguments reaching...As far as blaming the whole game on Griffin, that's exactly what I didn't do. & Plummer had a very, very solid game. 59% completions, 250 yds, & 0 INTs isn't good enough for you? What exactly do you think Plummer is capable of?Again, I'll reiterate. I think Griffin still is the starter. I also think there are some chinks in his armor. How can anyone look at his 4th quarter & not think otherwise? Game on the line, 3 series, 6 carries, and he nets a total of -1 yard & a lost fumble? And people think that is an unfair criticism? Talk about wearing blinders...
GoNads
Footballguy
I agree with the part about comparing the situations, and that, in that sense, they are different 'cause Q is not as entrenched as the others. However, the real point he was making is that he looked just as pedestrian as these other guys agains a real solid D, and the sky is not falling...The part about things being very much up in the air in Denver, on the other hand, smells like manure to me.As others have said, I'd be more concerned about the fumbles; that's why the fact that Shannahan said what he said about it is significant to me.No you aren't comparing those players, but you are comparing those situations....and I believe you are wrong about that. All of those RBs are firmly entrenched as the starter.Q went into training camp with the RB position on the line. The rookie, Bell, got injured, thus practically handing the job to Q. It remains to be seen if the coaches really like Bell better or not. Q is not the unquestioned starter. Things are very much up in the air.
When there's a problem with the QB-RB exchange, it is nearly always the QB's fault. The RB isn't looking at the ball; he is looking at the line of scrimmage -- his blockers and the defenders. There's no such thing as "it was close enough to his midsection, so he should have adjusted and grabbed the ball." He is not looking for the ball, so it is not his job to adjust. It is the QB's job to put it squarely between his arms.
Gridiron King
Footballguy
It's time to get Tatum Bell in there and show the world what a great trade for Champ Bailey was. 
Tat
Has-been punter
This looks like guys who don't own Q vs. those of us smart enough to take him in our draft(s).One game does not a player make.Granted, it was a big mistake causing the Broncs to lose. Would we be saying bench Elam if he would have missed the game winner?Stop over analyzing the fumble. Plummer was as much to blame as Q.It's only week 2.Also, was this a low scoring week for your teams? I still am the points leader in my league, but had a low point total this week.GLLLL
Of course that isnt good enough for me! That's incrediably pedistrian, a QB rating of 77.9. Thats down in Drew Bledsoe, Rex Grossman territory. 6.4 yards per attempt?! Thats supposed to be a positive?!Against a middling Jacksonville pass defense that just isnt anything to write home about. If you're playing an elite run defense with a mediocre pass defense, you better be able to throw a touchdown pass.
Noone has even mentioned the fact that Q Tip picks up the blitz much better than Tatum Bell. Protecting your QB alone can earn you starts over another player. Jacksonville's rush defense is stout, and they never pulled Q in favor of Bell even though he struggled (except for a breather). As of now Quintin Griffin is the starter, and it is still his job to lose. That being said, he needs to keep from fumbling, as every fumble does open the door wider for Tatum Bell.
Which leads us back to the question that you didn't answer:What exactly are your expectations for Plummer? This goes back a few threads where I stated that because Plummer isn't a strong enough QB to carry the team or pick up 2nd & longs and 3rd & longs regularly that the DEN O was going to struggle with a RB like Griffin, who will give you the big play every so often, but almost as often as not have virtually no gain or negative yards on his runs - that's not typical DEN football, and that's not enough for a limited QB like Plummer to overcome - although he came damn close yesterday.Apparently your thoughts on Plummer are that he is a much better QB than what I think he is. His performance against JAX was right about in line with what he should be doing to make DEN successful, IMO. No mistakes, completing close to 60% of his passes, getting about 220-270 yds passing, some rushing yards & a couple of 1st downs on bootlegs. Maybe a passing TD or two, maybe not.
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They could have hired Shane Mathews to do that. I dont have much faith in Plummer, but he's who they've got. You're not being very consistant here, you demand excellence from Griffin but expect mediocrity from Plummer. Thats fine if you want to think in those terms, but dont pretend you have some special insight into what the Broncos are thinking. There is no way they brought Jake Plummer in to play that kind of football, he is exactly _the opposite_ kind of quarterback as that. Why would you intentionally bring a guy who who made his reputation on gunslinging and making big plays and then expect him to play mistake free football and throw 5 yard passes? Has **** Jauron taken over the Broncos?What do I expect of Plummer? Put points on the board. That's what he was brought in to do.
superbowlchampion
Footballguy
Shanahan doesn't like to change RBs during the season. He stuck with an obviously injured Terrell in 2001.He stuck with Gary / Anderson in 2002 until injuries forced him to start an obviously more talented Portis.In this situation, I think Q is currently the better player. Even if it was close, Shanahan would probably stick with Q.Q had a great game against KC (KC made Foster look all-World this weekend). He had an average game against JAX (more yards than some elite backs like LT2). I haven't seen anything to worry Q owners or encourage Bell owners.If Q struggles next week, maybe you will see a little more of Bell. But I think Q will have a solid game.
DaveGrumbles
Footballguy
So it actually should have been a delay of game penalty for too many men on the field
And I thought the chop block that broke Spicer's leg was the only thing the Broncos got away with in the 4th quarter 
And I think Shanahan vastly overestimated Plummer's ability, much as you are doing now. I am not expecting Griffin to be a super RB - just the opposite. I don't think he's capable of being a super RB. Similarly, I don't think Plummer is capable of being an above average QB (but certainly better than Matthews).Shanahan has had a worse track record with QBs than he has had with WRs as a HC, and that's almost impossible. Which QB has he drafted & developed into even a reasonably mediocre NFL QB? No one. He thought Plummer could do some of the things that really good QBs could do. He can't.But because Plummer can't be a very good NFL QB - he's not capable, that means DEN needs a RB who used to give them what TD, Anderson, Portis did, which was regular significant (say 4-5 yds) positive yardage on 1st down. That relieves the pressure on the QB to make big plays regularly & it keeps the chains moving. Griffin doesn't give you that, and that's why he's a bad match for a QB like Plummer, which means we can probably expect to see more struggles on O for DEN.Shanahan is married to Plummer. Who is he going to start other than Plummer? Kanell? YIKES! But he doesn't have to be married to Griffin because he has another option at RB (actually 2 if Hearst could ever get healthy). And as I've stated clearly again & again - Bell may not be the answer at RB, but we don't know that yet. What I'm fairly convinced of is that Griffin is not the answer - not with his inconsistent production.That, and his lack of size, have been my arguments all along.
bostonfred2
Footballguy
No you aren't comparing those players, but you are comparing those situations....and I believe you are wrong about that. All of those RBs are firmly entrenched as the starter.Q went into training camp with the RB position on the line. The rookie, Bell, got injured, thus practically handing the job to Q. It remains to be seen if the coaches really like Bell better or not. Q is not the unquestioned starter. Things are very much up in the air.
This is exactly what I came in here to write. Griffin was not the incumbent, he's just another guy who was fighting for a starting job, and so far his audition has shown that he is a very capable runner when he can get space, and that he can break tackles against bad tackling teams, but that he struggles against good defenses, fumbles in criticial situations, can't run the clock down because he doesn't wear down defenses, and can't get consistent yardage early in the game. I don't know if Bell is better, but I don't think either player's owners are being very honest with themselves about what Griffin has shown - that he is a good running back who has shown some important flaws. PS - It's too bad people can't discuss this without getting emotional about it - the "Griffin is awesome you don't know what you're talking about" and "Bell's going to take the job in week 4 like I predicted" stuff doesn't help anyone. PPS - I bet a lot of the same people who liked Bennett like Griffin, and the ones who like Bell like Onterrio. The situations are remarkably similar.
Men-in-Cleats
Footballguy
If that is what he was trying to express then he did a very poor job of it. It read like "these guys didn't lose their starting jobs so this guy won't either" as opposed to "these guys had rough weeks too and they are more established RB's". The comparison, which despite the disclaimer, is exactly what he was doing is extremely far off base. Established starters who have rushed for 1500+ yards and 15+ TD's are not anywhere near as likely to lost their starting jobs as a second year guy with a couple of starts under his belt. None of these have anyone even half as talented as they are on the bench behind them. To even mention their names was pretty ridiculous. That said, as far as the topic at hand. I will give Q somewhat of a pass in that he was facing a top run defense but I wasn't touting him as the second coming of Barry Sanders after he tore up the Chiefs last week either. I think he is a solid back but I was never on the bandwagon to begin with. All we can do is wait and see what happens the next couple of weeks before Q owners can stop panicking/rejoicing and Bell owners can start rejoicing/panicking.I agree with the part about comparing the situations, and that, in that sense, they are different 'cause Q is not as entrenched as the others. However, the real point he was making is that he looked just as pedestrian as these other guys agains a real solid D, and the sky is not falling...The part about things being very much up in the air in Denver, on the other hand, smells like manure to me.As others have said, I'd be more concerned about the fumbles; that's why the fact that Shannahan said what he said about it is significant to me.No you aren't comparing those players, but you are comparing those situations....and I believe you are wrong about that. All of those RBs are firmly entrenched as the starter.Q went into training camp with the RB position on the line. The rookie, Bell, got injured, thus practically handing the job to Q. It remains to be seen if the coaches really like Bell better or not. Q is not the unquestioned starter. Things are very much up in the air.
The Man Who Met Andy Griffith
Footballguy
It's amazing how many posts like that I've seen. It is perfectly obvious that guys like Edge, Elam, Manning etc. are entrenched starters. It would take an enormous amount of errors to get them benched, because coaches have had years to observe them and know just how good they are.Griffin is not nearly as entrenched. The coaches have had one preseason and basically four regular season games to watch him. In the two games against bad defenses (KC and Indy) he looked good. In the two games against good defenses (GB and Jax) he looked bad.Of course Griffin is still the starter. But he is obviously on thin ice. If he blows up against SD (and he should) he will definitely keep the job for a while (although he is facing TB & CAR after that). If he fumbles in the first half (which he shouldn't) I would not be at all surprised to see Bell play the second half.Put another way: If the Denver offense continues to sputter, Shanahan won't (can't) replace Plummer. If he decides to gamble on a change, it would probably be at RB.And don't tell me that they only did badly because they were facing a stout defense. Jacksonville is good, but 6 points is not Denver football the way Shanahan wants it played. Even Buffalo managed more than that.Edit: internet problems prevented me from posting sooner. Of course at this point 10 others have already said all the above
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Raiders Fan
The Black Hole
I wouldn't go there. I guess you don't remember the Portis/Anderson/Gary fights.. Who was the starter to begin the year??? How long did it take Portis to start?? Facts are Griffin is going to be on thin ice.. I would not want to be a Griffin owner come playoff time.. I still feel weeks 6-8 Bell will over take him.. Whether its by injury or performance.
Gridiron King
Footballguy
PPS - I bet a lot of the same people who liked Bennett like Griffin, and the ones who like Bell like Onterrio. The situations are remarkably similar.Yes, that's because those who like Bell and Onterrio know a good RB when they see one. All these Q lovers are the probably same one's who thought Moe Williams was going to be the answer in Minnesota last year.
The Man Who Met Andy Griffith
Footballguy
1) Moe Williams was the answer in Minnesota last year. He did very well.2) Nobody has seen Bell in any substantive NFL action. I haven't seen Bell's college tapes, but I have seen Griffin's college and NFL tapes, both of which lead me to believe that he has some talent. I don't know if he has more talent than Bell.I am a LOOOOT more bullish on Onterrio than Bell, but I think Bell has a shot this year.
bostonfred2
Footballguy
Your point is well taken - you think it's better not to debate an issue until it's too late to do anything about it. Thanks for posting!how can we go wrong with insight like this?If rabbling on with paragraphs upon paragraphs of how Griffin sucked versus Jax will make you feel better owning Bell, then be my guest.I believe your time can be better spent than trying to turn NOTHING into SOMETHING.
Griffin got significant playing time in two games last year when Portis was hurt. One he looked good, one he looked bad. Add that to the two games Griffin has played this year, and his body of work is four regular season games.Denver has already played 4 regular season games this year?
Wadsworth
Footballguy
How about they start Q and bench Shanny?Why do you hand off to a RB that hasn't done anything in that situation? What are the chances that he gains enough yards to make any differince in the FG attempt? The Jags where obviously playing the run. If you want to set up the FG Jake can step to where Elam wants it and lay down. Just add another chapter to the chop blocking, vaseline wearing, salary cap circumventing, injury report lying reign of Shanny. It was a dumb call. Elam was well within range and what wind there was was at his back.
Mik789fl
Footballguy
I would consider those other players to be "studs" on their respective teams. I was not putting Griffin in their class...yet. ( remember Green's fumble problems early in his career). I was putting Griffin as the main running threat in Denver. I give you a quote from John Lynch after the game when he was asked what he said to Griffin.."...I told him your our stud,your our man all year,don't get down,you'll get the chance to make up for it". I know Lynch is not the coach,but hearing that from a team leader makes me think Griffin is the main man unless he's injured.
superbowlchampion
Footballguy
Yes, I had Portis ... obviously the most talented of the three. I wrote that in my previous post. This year is very different, Bell hasn't shown anything special (like Portis) and Griffin has shown flashes of brilliance.
Gary. That was my point, Shanahan is very loyal. It was very frustrating for us Portis owners. The Bell owners this year are betting on injury (IMHO). In 2002, I was confident Portis would take over eventually.
Week 5. After injuries to both Gary and Anderson.
That is your opinion. I don't think so. But guessing the Denver RB situation can be very beneficial. If you are correct and have Bell - congratulations. I picked up Q cheap and I'm happy.I sat Q this week (against JAX) and played Chris Brown. I will probably play Q against SD and sit Chris against Jax this week.
FrostBite
Footballguy
Running the ball was the right call in that situation. You run more time off the clock and have a chance to make the field goal closer. If was a fluke play, but you can not blame the coach on the call. If he kicks the field goal on third down and then Jax returns the kick for a TD you would be the one saying "he should have ran the ball on third down to take more time off the clock."
Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll
Footballguy
Should I even read this thread?
wadegarrett
FFA Legend™
...worst thread ever.
cstu
Footballguy
For the record, I don't have Q and only own Bell as a 5th RB in one league and I picked him up off waivers as trade bait. I also hate the Broncos and hope they suck this year. Just wanted to say that so it isn't as if I'm hoping that Bell plays so that it helps me in some way. In fact, I would like Q to stay the RB and watch the Broncos miss the playoffs. Enough of that...Pony Boy, you bring up the most important point about the Broncos O with Q as the RB - Plummer can't be counted on in 3rd and long situations. Q is great at what he does, but that style of running leaves the team in long yardage situations. You don't have to be a genius to realize that so of course Shanahan knows it. I don't know where Bell stands with his blocking protections, etc. but I'll be very surprised if he doesn't get more of a chance to take the job from Q. Whether he succeeds depends on how he does as well as how Q does at consistently picking up positive yardage.
Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll
Footballguy
Thanks.I owe you one.
