Now the DEN RB situation gets stickier (1 Viewer)

[P Boy]

Why do you hand off to a RB that hasn't done anything in that situation? What are the chances that he gains enough yards to make any differince in the FG attempt? The Jags where obviously playing the run. If you want to set up the FG Jake can step to where Elam wants it and lay down.

I also agree that this was the right call. If you can't execute a handoff with the game on the line you don't deserve to win a NFL game.Let's not forget that Elam's 1st FG try hit the right upright & bounced through. He also had a FG attempt that missed going over the crossbar by about 1 yd. It obviouslt wasn't Elam's best day. If I'm the HC, I'm getting every yard I can as well as leaving as little time on the clock as possible, as long as my play call is very, very safe, which that should have been.************************************************Something else to consider, which I forgot completely earlier:How does Griffin handle this fumble? I heard he was inconsolible & close to tears in the locker room afterwards. He seems like a very quiet, introverted, & very likeable kid, but does he have the selective amnesia required in the NFL - the temperment to put this behind him quickly, or does this keep popping up in his mind during games? I saw him play in college, but I know next to nothing of his ability to bounce back mentally.Thoughts?

 

[P Boy]

Should I even read this thread?

...worst thread ever.

Why is that? Because someone has the actual temerity to question the abilities of the "next Barry Sanders".Don't you think it's reasonable to question whether an inexperienced NFL RB who gained -1 yd rushing in 6 4th quarter runs & fumbled away a chance to win a close game is on the hotseat for his job, especially with another highly drafted RB sitting behind him waiting for a shot?

 

[mbuehner]

Pony Boy, you bring up the most important point about the Broncos O with Q as the RB - Plummer can't be counted on in 3rd and long situations. Q is great at what he does, but that style of running leaves the team in long yardage situations

Except that the Broncos throw on first down 2/3rds of the time, and that has been consistant since their first pre-season game.

 

[P Boy]

Except that the Broncos throw on first down 2/3rds of the time, and that has been consistant since their first pre-season game.

I don't know if this is true, so I'm not throwing it out there as one of my defining points in this argument, but has it ever occured to you that DEN might be throwing more than they usually do on first down because they don't have confidence in Griffin to regularly put them into an advantageous 2nd down situation?

 

[bostonfred2]

The Bell owners this year are betting on injury (IMHO). In 2002, I was confident Portis would take over eventually.

Every RB has a 20% chance of injury. Every one. So if you're banking on injury, you've got a 1 in 5 chance of being right. Give me an idea of how likely you think it is that Bell takes the job from Griffin without an injury. 1 in 5? 1 in 10? 1 in 20? Let's call it a 5% chance - even the most optimistic Griffin owner would have to concede there's a small chance Bell takes over for Griffin at some point of the season, no? The one thing most posters in this debate agree on is that Denver won't be RBBC the whole season. Which leaves Bell as a guy that has a 1 in 4 (20% + 5%) chance of being the Denver starter. That alone gives him value. I happen to think that Bell's chance of taking over without injury is higher than 5%. Last week, I thought it was about 10%. This week, I think it's about 20%, which leaves me thinking that Bell's value is (40%) x (value of the Denver running back) which is pretty damn good. Bell is a guy that a playoff bound team wants as a lottery ticket going into the playoffs. Yet Bell's still going fairly cheap right now - he would probably be the expensive throw in in a 2 for 2 trade. He was much cheaper after last week's game, and the people who agreed with me went out and got him on the cheap. With the exception of dynasty leagues, where Bell's price will be higher, and leagues with short rosters, I don't understand people who decide that Bell has no value and therefore they won't make any effort to get him. It makes no sense to me.

But guessing the Denver RB situation can be very beneficial. If you are correct and have Bell - congratulations. I picked up Q cheap and I'm happy.

Why guess? Why not try to get both?

 

[Wadsworth]

How about they start Q and bench Shanny?Why do you hand off to a RB that hasn't done anything in that situation? What are the chances that he gains enough yards to make any differince in the FG attempt? The Jags where obviously playing the run. If you want to set up the FG Jake can step to where Elam wants it and lay down. Just add another chapter to the chop blocking, vaseline wearing, salary cap circumventing, injury report lying reign of Shanny. It was a dumb call. Elam was well within range and what wind there was was at his back.

Running the ball was the right call in that situation. You run more time off the clock and have a chance to make the field goal closer. If was a fluke play, but you can not blame the coach on the call. If he kicks the field goal on third down and then Jax returns the kick for a TD you would be the one saying "he should have ran the ball on third down to take more time off the clock."

The ball was on the 24 yard line and the wind was coming from behind the Broncos. Elam has more than enough leg for that kick. Plummer could have taken the snap and kneeled at the exact spot Elam wanted to kick from, the Jags would have burned a time out and the Broncos kick the ball. I understand and agree that the Broncos should not have kicked on 3rd down. They should make the Jags burn a time out there. But you couldn't expect Griifin to pick up more than a yard or 2 on the play, the Jags had shut him down most of the game and it was an obvious running situation, they had the line stacked. Is another 2 or 3 yards really that big a deal to Elam? A 42 yarder versus a maybe 40 or 39 yards with wind at his back? When you have a kicker like Elam I don't see any reason to risk the hand off.

 

[mbuehner]

I don't know if this is true, so I'm not throwing it out there as one of my defining points in this argument, but has it ever occured to you that DEN might be throwing more than they usually do on first down because they don't have confidence in Griffin to regularly put them into an advantageous 2nd down situation?

Sigh. Occam's Razor. Is it more likely that from _the start of camp_ Denver decided the RB they claim to love and traded away Portis to start actually sucked and hence they'd better design their offense to throw the ball on first down. But still keep Griffin as starter.Or that the Broncos brought in Plummer to pair up with Griffin in a pass first offense because they felt that was their most effective way to put up points? Pony, your theories just fly straight in the face of the facts. Why do you keep insisting the Broncos would love to run the John Schoop, three yards and a cloud of dust, 5 yard slant offense, when for some strange reason they brought in the current personnel totally unsuited for that and insist on playing them? Why hasnt Bell taken the reigns by now if you are correct?

 

[P Boy]

by mbuehner:

Pony, your theories just fly straight in the face of the facts. Why do you keep insisting the Broncos would love to run the John Schoop, three yards and a cloud of dust, 5 yard slant offense, when for some strange reason they brought in the current personnel totally unsuited for that and insist on playing them?

You want facts? Here are some facts: DEN team rushing ave. since Shanahan took over:2003 4.84 ypc

2002 4.96 ypc

2001 3.90 ypc

2000 4.50 ypc

1999 4.01 ypc

1998 4.70 ypc

1997 4.57 ypc

1996 4.50 ypc

1995 4.53 ypc

So what makes you think that the DEN running game is anything like a 3 yds & a cloud of dust? The run sets up the pass in DEN, and it makes the offense downright dangerous. Plus Shanahan knows, as do most football coaches, all the way down to Pop Warner leagues - coaches have known it for decades - that teams that run very effectively have a much greater chance for success than teams that don't.

Now, some more facts: When DEN runs for 4.50 ypc or more on the season under Shanahan, their record is 77-35. When DEN runs for less than 4.50 ypc, their record is 14-18. How's that for facts & understanding what Shanahan tries to accomplish as a HC?

BTW, DEN's current ypc so far this year? 4.40 ypc - and that includes the blowout of KC's run "D".

by mbuehner:

Is it more likely that from _the start of camp_ Denver decided the RB they claim to love and traded away Portis to start actually sucked and hence they'd better design their offense to throw the ball on first down. But still keep Griffin as starter.

That's another possible explanation. Unless you can provide solid proof, though, I don't understand why you think your argument here is so superior to my argument, for which I can provide an equal amount of solid proof.

 

[Marc Levin]

Apparently your thoughts on Plummer are that he is a much better QB than what I think he is. His performance against JAX was right about in line with what he should be doing to make DEN successful, IMO. No mistakes, completing close to 60% of his passes, getting about 220-270 yds passing, some rushing yards & a couple of 1st downs on bootlegs. Maybe a passing TD or two, maybe not.

Spoken like a man that truly wants his team to win.That said, while the first section bolded is more important than anythign else for Denver QBs, the Broncos will not go far in the playoffs without Plummer throwing at least one TD each game.

The Denver D is improved, but they are not championship quality. They will lose every game that they are unable to generate offense - which includes passing the ball well and occasionally being able to thorw into ther endzone when the runnin game is struggling.

On the handoff, Tremblay's point is accurate, but not 100% correct. It does you no good as a RB to feel the ball hit your arm and not your belly, and then to not look down to take the ball - especially on a play where your job is to head into the middle of the line and fall down. It was two-party fault there for the handoff.

It is not fair to blame Plummer for the handoff if Griffin gave him too small a target to hit. Yes, I mean b/c he is so short - but also because his hands may not have been positioned correctly, thus Plummer hit his arm instead of his belly.

 

[Marc Levin]

Plummer could have taken the snap and kneeled at the exact spot Elam wanted to kick from, the Jags would have burned a time out and the Broncos kick the ball.

Then the play would have been a few yards' loss. That's not how football is played.Ye, that woulda' been safer 0 it aint the gamje, though. A handoff to your running back is how you get a few more inches and re-position the ball in the closing seconds.

 

[P Boy]

Apparently your thoughts on Plummer are that he is a much better QB than what I think he is.  His performance against JAX was right about in line with what he should be doing to make DEN successful, IMO.  No mistakes, completing close to 60% of his passes, getting about 220-270 yds passing, some rushing yards & a couple of 1st downs on bootlegs.  Maybe a passing TD or two, maybe not.

Spoken like a man that truly wants his team to win.

LOL! Marc checks in with a solid shot of dripping sarcasm. Good day to you, too, my friend.:rotflmao:

All seriousness aside, I hated the signing of Plummer. I followed him at ASU, and I knew what he was doing in AZ. I guess I realize that Shanahan has erred again in a FA signing, but because I realize that Plummer has some serious shortcomings that limit his capability on the field doesn't mean that I don't want to see DEN win.

But there is no viable alternative at QB for DEN. That's why I'm perfectly willing to give Bell a shot - because I'm convinced that Plummer & Griffin are a very poor match in a Shanahan offense. Their short comings don't make up for each other - instead its kind of like a harmonic resonance - their shortcomings actually accentuate the other's shortcomings even more.

Griffin could certainly work out as a very decent pro RB & make a team better. But not a DEN Shanahan run team.

IMO.

 

[Marc Levin]

LOL! Marc checks in with a solid shot of dripping sarcasm. Good day to you, too, my friend. :rotflmao:

Actually I was 100% serious.No mistakes is what Denver QBs need to do for Denver to win ballgames in the regular season. And they haven't had a single low mistake QB back there since Elway - so far, Plummer has been more or less able to be error free or at least compensate his INTs with TDs. If they expect to win playoff games, however, they need Plummer to show he can throw TDs inside the 20.

 

[Newman]

One game does not a player make.

Holy cow - where was this last week from Griffin owners?

 

[BingoBrown]

:bitingtongue:

 

[Marc Levin]

One game does not a player make.

Holy cow - where was this last week from Griffin owners?

No doubt - but what I think they guy should have posted was "one play does not a player make"

 

[superbowlchampion]

One game does not a player make.

Holy cow - where was this last week from Griffin owners?

Read the "Is anyone sitting Q this week, It is Jax he will see" thread.I benched Q for Chris Brown. Many other Q owners made similar choices with other #2 RBs. No worries - Q will be starting for me this week against San Diego. (Brown plays JAX).

 

[Gridiron King]

In Shanahan's press conference today he said Tatem Bell had the pin removed from his finger and should be ready to go. This tells me he will see alot more carries in the next game and Q is on the hotseat. Stay tuned, the next "product of the system" is about to get unleashed.

 

[Marc Levin]

One game does not a player make.

Holy cow - where was this last week from Griffin owners?

Read the "Is anyone sitting Q this week, It is Jax he will see" thread.I benched Q for Chris Brown. Many other Q owners made similar choices with other #2 RBs. No worries - Q will be starting for me this week against San Diego. (Brown plays JAX).

Doing the exact same thing.

 

[OU Kurt]

It is beyond me why you give this baffoon the time of day. He is just a ####### the reached too early for Bell and it blew up in his face.He ate crow after week 1 and now after Q has a sub par day vs the best rush D in the NFL he is back again.Spout your nonsense after Q has 100 + and 2 tds vs SD. You are a joke, Pony Girl.

 

[BingoBrown]

In Shanahan's press conference today he said Tatem Bell had the pin removed from his finger and should be ready to go. This tells me he will see alot more carries in the next game and Q is on the hotseat. Stay tuned, the next "product of the system" is about to get unleashed.

Unbelievable. He had the pin removed, so now he's going to take the starting job? Fantastic logic you've got there.

 

[P Boy]

It is beyond me why you give this baffoon the time of day. He is just a ####### the reached too early for Bell and it blew up in his face.

He ate crow after week 1 and now after Q has a sub par day vs the best rush D in the NFL he is back again.

Spout your nonsense after Q has 100 + and 2 tds vs SD. You are a joke, Pony Girl.

And you, my friend, have absolutely no clue as to what you are talking about. The only leagues I hold Bell in are 2 Delta leagues - and I drafted him late in both. I'd say that you are certainly an authority on jokes - it goes with your acumen.I ate crow last week, and rightfully so. Griffin punished a bad run D. Good running backs do that. What good running backs do not do is gain -1 yard on 6 carries in the 4th quarter of a close game & then cough up the ball when their K would have won the game on the next play.

 

[P Boy]

Unbelievable. He had the pin removed, so now he's going to take the starting job? Fantastic logic you've got there.

I agree with you. The job is still Griffin's to hold, or to lose - unless Bell performs unbelievably well. However, there is little doubt that Griffin has opened the door to Bell in this past game. Bell ought to get a few more reps. That loss yesterday was not a good one.

 

[Marc Levin]

It is beyond me why you give this baffoon the time of day. He is just a ####### the reached too early for Bell and it blew up in his face.He ate crow after week 1 and now after Q has a sub par day vs the best rush D in the NFL he is back again.Spout your nonsense after Q has 100 + and 2 tds vs SD. You are a joke, Pony Girl.

Hi OU Kurt. Thanks for posting the Shark Pool.One of Joe Bryant's favorite rules for the Shark Poool is: "Be excellent to each other"Name calling is strictly prohibited in the Shark Pool. One of my favorite sayings from Shick! (which you will find in several guys' signatures) is this:There is NO pissing in the Shark Pool, but you may sprinkle your name all over the FFA.I am sure I don't need to remind Pony not to bait you into responding by posting a nasty retort. If he does, I am sure someone will delete it out of hand.Thanks and I enjoy reading your thoughts around the Pool.

 

[BingoBrown]

I ate crow last week, and rightfully so. Griffin punished a bad run D. Good running backs do that. What good running backs do not do is gain -1 yard on 6 carries in the 4th quarter of a close game & then cough up the ball when their K would have won the game on the next play.

Is this the kind of flip-flopping you'll be doing all season long?You probably just saw Griffin's best game in week one and his worst game in week two, against the worst run defense and the best run defense respectively. If I can get somewhere in the middle of those two performances against average run defenses (80-90 yards & a TD), I'll be happy, and I think Shanahan will too.

If he continues to fumble the ball, sure, his job will be in jeopardy. But he's hardly "on the hot seat" right now.

 

[P Boy]

If he continues to fumble the ball, sure, his job will be in jeopardy. But he's hardly "on the hot seat" right now.

That's 2 lost fumbles in two games. How many chances do you think Shanahan will give him?LOL @ the flip flopping. I have yet to have someone who is a Griffin supporter say "Yep, I still like the guy, but you are right. -1 yard in 6 4th quarter carries and a fumble at the end sure makes him look worse." Instead, we get "The JAX run D is the best in the NFL (hardly - top 10, yep. Top 5, maybe). Q will get 300 yds & 9 TDs against SD."Why can't you guys concede a point? I do, and it doesn't bother me. Griffin looked absolutely horrible in the 4th quarter yesterday. Jiminy Christmas, even a bad NFL RB ought to be able to fall forward for 1 total yard given 6 carries in a critical time in the game.

 

[Biabreakable]

Oh good night.

Griffin combined for 30 total touches and 95 total yards against a very good Jax defnese.

What does this mite need to do to get a lil respect?

I can't believe there is so much interest in this when the Vikings are about to demolish Philly so soon.

 

[BingoBrown]

If he continues to fumble the ball, sure, his job will be in jeopardy. But he's hardly "on the hot seat" right now.

That's 2 lost fumbles in two games. How many chances do you think Shanahan will give him?LOL @ the flip flopping. I have yet to have someone who is a Griffin supporter say "Yep, I still like the guy, but you are right. -1 yard in 6 4th quarter carries and a fumble at the end sure makes him look worse." Instead, we get "The JAX run D is the best in the NFL (hardly - top 10, yep. Top 5, maybe). Q will get 300 yds & 9 TDs against SD."

Why can't you guys concede a point? I do, and it doesn't bother me. Griffin looked absolutely horrible in the 4th quarter yesterday. Jiminy Christmas, even a bad NFL RB ought to be able to fall forward for 1 total yard given 6 carries in a critical time in the game.

That's 2 lost fumbles in two games. How many chances do you think Shanahan will give him?

I sure think he's going to give him a lot longer than two games to prove whether he is or isn't worthy of the starting job.

LOL @ the flip flopping. I have yet to have someone who is a Griffin supporter say "Yep, I still like the guy, but you are right. -1 yard in 6 4th quarter carries and a fumble at the end sure makes him look worse."

Of course it makes him look worse, I never said it didn't, but to be calling for a change already is ludicrous. I still like the guy, I don't think the fumble was entirely his fault, and I like his chances to finish the season as the primary back in Denver.

Instead, we get "The JAX run D is the best in the NFL (hardly - top 10, yep. Top 5, maybe). Q will get 300 yds & 9 TDs against SD."

The stats disagree with you here. Last year the Jaguars were the second best rushing defense last year, while the Chiefs and Chargers were the third and eigth worst respectively. Griffin put up great stats against the Chiefs, and I expect at least good stats against the Chargers next week.

Why can't you guys concede a point? I do, and it doesn't bother me.

No, no you haven't Pony Boy. You conceded a point last week, when you "ate crow", but at the slightest sign of weakness in Griffin, you've once again started driving the Quentin-hating bandwagon.

Jiminy Christmas, even a bad NFL RB ought to be able to fall forward for 1 total yard given 6 carries in a critical time in the game.

I'm sure it's happened before, and I'm sure it'll happen again. The important thing to note is that it was Griffin in the game at a critical point. Sure, he didn't do very well, but Shanahan obviously had enough faith to keep him in there, that says something.

 

[bostonfred2]

In Shanahan's press conference today he said Tatem Bell had the pin removed from his finger and should be ready to go.

Good info here.

 

[Wadsworth]

Plummer could have taken the snap and kneeled at the exact spot Elam wanted to kick from, the Jags would have burned a time out and the Broncos kick the ball.

Then the play would have been a few yards' loss. That's not how football is played.Ye, that woulda' been safer 0 it aint the gamje, though. A handoff to your running back is how you get a few more inches and re-position the ball in the closing seconds.

That's a pretty arrogant statement. Especially considering that this was not Elway handing off to T. Davis. It was Plummer handing off to Griffin, who is new to the featured back role and had a fumble last week. If you want to argue that the relative risk of a fumble on one running play is wothwhile versus the advantage of a 40 yard field goal versus a 42 field goal that at least is a debatable point. Simply saying that's not how football is played and assuming that you are the authority really doesn't add much.

 

[The Man Who Met Andy Griffith]

LOL @ the flip flopping. I have yet to have someone who is a Griffin supporter say "Yep, I still like the guy, but you are right. -1 yard in 6 4th quarter carries and a fumble at the end sure makes him look worse." Instead, we get "The JAX run D is the best in the NFL (hardly - top 10, yep. Top 5, maybe). Q will get 300 yds & 9 TDs against SD."

I still like the guy, but you are right. -1 yard in 6 4th quarter carries and a fumble at the end sure makes him look worse

 

[bostonfred2]

I sure think he's going to give him a lot longer than two games to prove whether he is or isn't worthy of the starting job.

Why? 1) Why should he, since Griffin didn't win the job in open competition, and

2) Why would you be sure, given the massive turnover in the day one starting back in Denver since Terrell Davis?

The important thing to note is that it was Griffin in the game at a critical point. Sure, he didn't do very well, but Shanahan obviously had enough faith to keep him in there, that says something.

What does it say? Tatum Bell had a pin in his finger. Not exactly the guy you want to hold the ball late in the game. Griffin had struggled in the fourth quarter, but Shanahan put the ball in his hands and it cost them the game.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Pony's big ugly negative stat that he's using to push his point is in error. Q had 7 touches for 7 yards in the 4th quarter, fwiw. 6 carries for 3 and a reception for 4 (pretty impressive play, btw). Q has mad game. Be patient.

 

[BingoBrown]

I sure think he's going to give him a lot longer than two games to prove whether he is or isn't worthy of the starting job.

Why? 1) Why should he, since Griffin didn't win the job in open competition, and

2) Why would you be sure, given the massive turnover in the day one starting back in Denver since Terrell Davis?

The important thing to note is that it was Griffin in the game at a critical point.  Sure, he didn't do very well, but Shanahan obviously had enough faith to keep him in there, that says something.

What does it say? Tatum Bell had a pin in his finger. Not exactly the guy you want to hold the ball late in the game. Griffin had struggled in the fourth quarter, but Shanahan put the ball in his hands and it cost them the game.

1) Why should he, since Griffin didn't win the job in open competition, and

Is this revisionist history? Two months ago no one knew who the starting RB would be in Denver. The list of candidates was large: Griffin, Mike Anderson, Garrison Hearst, and Tatum Bell. Griffin did win the job in open competition, it wasn't just handed to him like you claim.

2) Why would you be sure, given the massive turnover in the day one starting back in Denver since Terrell Davis?

Because those RBs were ineffective or injured, that's what lead to the turnover. Griffin had a fantastic first game, and a bad second game. So based on one game, throwing out the great performance in week one, you're now willing to hand the job to someone else? There is no reason to hand the job over to anyone else right now. Griffin won it in the preseason, and it's his to lose, one bad game against a tough run defense won't change that.

What does it say? Tatum Bell had a pin in his finger. Not exactly the guy you want to hold the ball late in the game.

How about handing the ball to veteran Garrison Hearst? Certainly that could have been an option. Don't let your Bell-bias cloud your judgment, Griffin and Bell aren't the only two RBs in Denver.

 

[Marc Levin]

Jiminy Christmas, even a bad NFL RB ought to be able to fall forward for 1 total yard given 6 carries in a critical time in the game.

IIRC, there was a stretch during the Dolphin game last night that Rudi Johnson received two or three carries on a drive when the team simply needed to run down the clock a bit and punt and he ended up losing a bunch of yardage - 6 or 7 yards total and Rudi is certainly big enough to play the position.When a really fine run D is fired and run blitzing, even Priest Homes, Jamal Lewis, and Walter Payton would get stopped.

 

[bostonfred2]

1) Why should he, since Griffin didn't win the job in open competition, and

Is this revisionist history? Two months ago no one knew who the starting RB would be in Denver. The list of candidates was large: Griffin, Mike Anderson, Garrison Hearst, and Tatum Bell. Griffin did win the job in open competition, it wasn't just handed to him like you claim.

2) Why would you be sure, given the massive turnover in the day one starting back in Denver since Terrell Davis?

Because those RBs were ineffective or injured, that's what lead to the turnover. Griffin had a fantastic first game, and a bad second game. So based on one game, throwing out the great performance in week one, you're now willing to hand the job to someone else? There is no reason to hand the job over to anyone else right now. Griffin won it in the preseason, and it's his to lose, one bad game against a tough run defense won't change that.

What does it say?  Tatum Bell had a pin in his finger.  Not exactly the guy you want to hold the ball late in the game.

How about handing the ball to veteran Garrison Hearst? Certainly that could have been an option. Don't let your Bell-bias cloud your judgment, Griffin and Bell aren't the only two RBs in Denver.

You're accusing me of revisionist history? I've been saying the same thing the whole time. Go back and read any of my posts. If anyone is revising history, it's you, by saying Griffin won the starting job in training camp. Griffin "won" the job, at least to some extent, by default. Griffin simply didn't win the job in open competition against Bell. So if Bell were to come back healthy and take the job, it wouldn't be a case of Shanahan replacing the incumbent for bad performance, but a case of Shanahan playing the guy he wanted to play. Not one of us knows which guy that is. I'm not blindly making a case for Bell. Griffin was ahead of Bell before the injury. The problem is, that injury happened so early in the preseason. Now Bell is healthy, has a couple NFL carries under his belt, and has had more time to absorb the offense. The only new facts we have between the time of Bell's injury and today are that 1) Griffin had a great statistical game against KC 2) During the KC game, Griffin had a bad red zone fumble and a couple of negative carry drives when they were trying to run the clock out, 3) Griffin had some much-discussed problems against Jacksonville, especially late in the game, and 4) Bell was good enough to beat out Hearst for the backup role even though he was injured. To me, that means Bell's stock is on the way up in Denver, while Griffin's took a hit this weekend. If the two had gone head to head, and Griffin had won, I'd be a much bigger supporter of Griffin. But of the four backs you mentioned, two (Mike Anderson and Bell) got injured, and both Griffin and an injured Bell have beaten out Hearst. People defending Griffin and claiming that Bell has no chance of taking the job are the ones being blind - even if you strongly believe that Griffin will keep the job, you have to acknowledge the possibility that he doesn't.

 

[Marc Levin]

Plummer could have taken the snap and kneeled at the exact spot Elam wanted to kick from, the Jags would have burned a time out and the Broncos kick the ball.

Then the play would have been a few yards' loss. That's not how football is played.Ye, that woulda' been safer 0 it aint the gamje, though. A handoff to your running back is how you get a few more inches and re-position the ball in the closing seconds.

That's a pretty arrogant statement. Especially considering that this was not Elway handing off to T. Davis. It was Plummer handing off to Griffin, who is new to the featured back role and had a fumble last week. If you want to argue that the relative risk of a fumble on one running play is wothwhile versus the advantage of a 40 yard field goal versus a 42 field goal that at least is a debatable point. Simply saying that's not how football is played and assuming that you are the authority really doesn't add much.

Are you telling me you have seen a team in a NFL football game, sometime in the last 20 years, take a knee to reposition the ball for a field goal try with 30 seconds left?Otherwsie, the statement was true, not arrogant.

 

[BingoBrown]

You're accusing me of revisionist history? I've been saying the same thing the whole time. Go back and read any of my posts. If anyone is revising history, it's you, by saying Griffin won the starting job in training camp.

Griffin "won" the job, at least to some extent, by default. Griffin simply didn't win the job in open competition against Bell. So if Bell were to come back healthy and take the job, it wouldn't be a case of Shanahan replacing the incumbent for bad performance, but a case of Shanahan playing the guy he wanted to play. Not one of us knows which guy that is.

I'm not blindly making a case for Bell. Griffin was ahead of Bell before the injury. The problem is, that injury happened so early in the preseason. Now Bell is healthy, has a couple NFL carries under his belt, and has had more time to absorb the offense.

The only new facts we have between the time of Bell's injury and today are that 1) Griffin had a great statistical game against KC 2) During the KC game, Griffin had a bad red zone fumble and a couple of negative carry drives when they were trying to run the clock out, 3) Griffin had some much-discussed problems against Jacksonville, especially late in the game, and 4) Bell was good enough to beat out Hearst for the backup role even though he was injured. To me, that means Bell's stock is on the way up in Denver, while Griffin's took a hit this weekend.

If the two had gone head to head, and Griffin had won, I'd be a much bigger supporter of Griffin. But of the four backs you mentioned, two (Mike Anderson and Bell) got injured, and both Griffin and an injured Bell have beaten out Hearst.

People defending Griffin and claiming that Bell has no chance of taking the job are the ones being blind - even if you strongly believe that Griffin will keep the job, you have to acknowledge the possibility that he doesn't.

Griffin "won" the job, at least to some extent, by default. Griffin simply didn't win the job in open competition against Bell.

Once again your Bell-bias shines through. Hearst and Anderson were also in the competition for the job, it was hardly a contest between Bell and Griffin. Griffin was the leading candidate the whole way, before Bell's injury, before Anderson's injury, and after Bell's return. Nothing has changed the entire preseason.

So if Bell were to come back healthy and take the job, it wouldn't be a case of Shanahan replacing the incumbent for bad performance, but a case of Shanahan playing the guy he wanted to play. Not one of us knows which guy that is.

So now Shanahan wanted to play Bell the whole time? Please.

I'm not blindly making a case for Bell. Griffin was ahead of Bell before the injury. The problem is, that injury happened so early in the preseason. Now Bell is healthy, has a couple NFL carries under his belt, and has had more time to absorb the offense.

Bell is a rookie. He missed a lot of training camp. Sure, he has time to absorb the offense now, but he's light years behind Griffin at this point.

People defending Griffin and claiming that Bell has no chance of taking the job are the ones being blind - even if you strongly believe that Griffin will keep the job, you have to acknowledge the possibility that he doesn't.

I've never said that Bell has no chance of taking the job, but to assume that he'll get a chance now after one bad game from Griffin is pure folly. Do you think that's how Shanahan wants to play out the season? Bad game from Griffin, give the ball to Bell. Bad game from Bell, give the ball to Griffin. Bad game from Griffin, etc.Where will the Bell supporters be next week after Griffin has a big game? I want to see some projections. If Griffin is so terrible, how bad will he do next week?

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

So, have I missed anything since I first perused through this train wreck?!

 

[sentr]

If the two had gone head to head, and Griffin had won, I'd be a much bigger supporter of Griffin. But of the four backs you mentioned, two (Mike Anderson and Bell) got injured, and both Griffin and an injured Bell have beaten out Hearst.

What you say about Bell passing Hearst is simply a misstatement. Bell passed Hearst on the depth chart b/c Hearst was injured with the ankle injury from week one. Barring the injury, Hearst was to be the #2 RB coming into the Jax game. In fact, everytime Bell moves up the depth chart it is due to an injury to one of the guys in front of him. During preseason, Bell was the #4 RB behind Griffin, Anderson, and Hearst....Anderson tore the hammy and Hearst moved up to #2, while Bell moved up to #3. Has he really done anything to "beat out" anyone? If so, please let me know. I can feel the frustration of the Bell owners.....it's ok.....you'll be ok. After Griffin lights it up for the full season, you might get a chance for spot duty in the 2005-2006 season. That's not really too long to wait is it?

 

[Mark Wimer]

Griffin gains 2.6 ypc against JAX while Bell has 4.0 ypc in very limited duty.More importantly, Griffin has 6 carries for -1 yard in 3 drives in the 4th quarter & fumbles the ball on what would have been the winning drive for DEN (please don't assign blame to Plummer - the ball was delievred a bit low, but it was delivered in Griffin's midsection. A pro should easily handle that handoff).Even more importantly, the game could have impact in deciding wildcard positions, and KC lost yesterday, which would have allowed DEN to open a 2 game lead on its top rival in the AFC West. That fumble was a gigantic play, but I feel the 6 carries for negative total yardage in the 4th quarter is just as huge. He couldn't create any yardage for himself at all - which of course I'll attribute to his size.It should be interesting how this week plays out. I think Griffin will getthe start at SD, but I also think he's going to be on a very short leash & that Bell will get significantly more work.Major disaster yesterday for DEN.

From hte Broncos website:.... "It just looked like Jake got it back there and it looked like it hit Q's arm as he was putting it in his stomach," Head Coach Mike Shanahan said. "It never looked like he had control of it."He never got it from the quarterback," Shanahan later added. "Why, I'm not really sure. I looked on the replay and he never seemed to get it. I'm not sure if Jake stumbled or it was exactly what did happen but it's a little different when you have the ball in there and somebody strips it as opposed to a guy missing the quarterback exchange."Plummer absorbed his share of the blame after the loss."It's something we work on every day in practice," he said. "Both of us are at fault."The idea that the handoff wouldn't be completed seemed inconceivable to kicker Jason Elam, who was so certain he'd have the chance to kick the game-winning field goal that he was away from the sidelines, ready to sprint on the field as the final seconds ticked down towards a chance at the game-winning points."I had already taken a couple of steps onto the field," Elam said. "I knew they were just lining it up, and we didn't have any timeouts. It was a hurry-up field-goal situation, where we had to get out there and get it off before time ran out. I took a couple of steps on the field and saw the ball squirt loose."Kicking Griffin when he was down was not the order of the sideline and locker room in the moments following the fumble. Encouragement, on the other hand, was the norm."You just tell him that we're going to keep riding him. He's our stud back there," Lynch said. "We need him to just forget about it and come back. It's going to be tough on him but this is a football team. We win together, we lose together."And to narrow the game to one play was to overlook the other struggles throughout the game as the Broncos failed to convert 12 of 18 third downs, had a 51-yard field goal fall short and saw a goal-to-go situation late in the first half end in a field goal."You can go back to a lot of things," Shanahan said. "It's not just one thing that did it. You score six points on offense, that kind of sums it up. You've got to score more than six points. We had many opportunities throughout the day to score some points....I don't get the notion that they are down on Quentin or assigning him blame ofr the loss. Their great O-line couldn't open any holes for him up the middle. I just don't see the short leash after Shannahan was gushing over Q last week. Then again, maybe he is that fickle... I just don't see it though.

I think your read is right. The team has not lost faith in Griffin, and neither has Shanahan.Griffin had bad luck on that handoff from Plummer.

 

[bostonfred2]

Once again your Bell-bias shines through. Hearst and Anderson were also in the competition for the job, it was hardly a contest between Bell and Griffin. Griffin was the leading candidate the whole way, before Bell's injury, before Anderson's injury, and after Bell's return. Nothing has changed the entire preseason.

I don't think you read my whole post, so I'll just repost what I wrote the first time, then you can write a more reasoned response. Sometimes these conversations are better when both people read.

If the two had gone head to head, and Griffin had won, I'd be a much bigger supporter of Griffin. But of the four backs you mentioned, two (Mike Anderson and Bell) got injured, and both Griffin and an injured Bell have beaten out Hearst.

So if Bell were to come back healthy and take the job, it wouldn't be a case of Shanahan replacing the incumbent for bad performance, but a case of Shanahan playing the guy he wanted to play. Not one of us knows which guy that is.

So now Shanahan wanted to play Bell the whole time? Please.

To save space, I just bolded the part you didn't read.

I'm not blindly making a case for Bell. Griffin was ahead of Bell before the injury. The problem is, that injury happened so early in the preseason. Now Bell is healthy, has a couple NFL carries under his belt, and has had more time to absorb the offense.

Bell is a rookie. He missed a lot of training camp. Sure, he has time to absorb the offense now, but he's light years behind Griffin at this point.

Light years might be a stretch, but I agree.

People defending Griffin and claiming that Bell has no chance of taking the job are the ones being blind - even if you strongly believe that Griffin will keep the job, you have to acknowledge the possibility that he doesn't.

I've never said that Bell has no chance of taking the job, but to assume that he'll get a chance now after one bad game from Griffin is pure folly.

It's possible that Shanahan wanted Bell to be the guy the whole time, and that Bell's injury gave Griffin a chance to convince him otherwise but he's not doing well with it. It's possible that Griffin loses the job outright because of his well documented miscues. Lots of things are possible - we just don't know.

Do you think that's how Shanahan wants to play out the season? Bad game from Griffin, give the ball to Bell. Bad game from Bell, give the ball to Griffin. Bad game from Griffin, etc.

No. He has, however, shown a willingness to change backs early in the season.

Where will the Bell supporters be next week after Griffin has a big game? I want to see some projections. If Griffin is so terrible, how bad will he do next week?

When did I say Griffin was "so terrible"? All I've pointed out is the problem with the fumbling and his late game woes, which I called this week and was dead on. I'll project the game, but I expect you to do the same. I think Griffin has a good game - I'll say 80-120 yards with no fumbles - but Bell gets a couple carries early in the game, and a few more in late in the game to spell Griffin when they're running out the clock, getting between 4 and 10 carries for about 4 YPC.

Please be equally specific with your projections.

 

[bostonfred2]

What you say about Bell passing Hearst is simply a misstatement. Bell passed Hearst on the depth chart b/c Hearst was injured with the ankle injury from week one.

Bell was also injured. He still had a pin in his finger. But your point is fair, and well taken.

 

[BingoBrown]

Once again your Bell-bias shines through. Hearst and Anderson were also in the competition for the job, it was hardly a contest between Bell and Griffin. Griffin was the leading candidate the whole way, before Bell's injury, before Anderson's injury, and after Bell's return. Nothing has changed the entire preseason.

I don't think you read my whole post, so I'll just repost what I wrote the first time, then you can write a more reasoned response. Sometimes these conversations are better when both people read.

If the two had gone head to head, and Griffin had won, I'd be a much bigger supporter of Griffin.  But of the four backs you mentioned, two (Mike Anderson and Bell) got injured, and both Griffin and an injured Bell have beaten out Hearst. 

So if Bell were to come back healthy and take the job, it wouldn't be a case of Shanahan replacing the incumbent for bad performance, but a case of Shanahan playing the guy he wanted to play.  Not one of us knows which guy that is.

So now Shanahan wanted to play Bell the whole time? Please.

To save space, I just bolded the part you didn't read.

I'm not blindly making a case for Bell.  Griffin was ahead of Bell before the injury. The problem is, that injury happened so early in the preseason.  Now Bell is healthy, has a couple NFL carries under his belt, and has had more time to absorb the offense.

Bell is a rookie. He missed a lot of training camp. Sure, he has time to absorb the offense now, but he's light years behind Griffin at this point.

Light years might be a stretch, but I agree.

People defending Griffin and claiming that Bell has no chance of taking the job are the ones being blind - even if you strongly believe that Griffin will keep the job, you have to acknowledge the possibility that he doesn't.

I've never said that Bell has no chance of taking the job, but to assume that he'll get a chance now after one bad game from Griffin is pure folly.

It's possible that Shanahan wanted Bell to be the guy the whole time, and that Bell's injury gave Griffin a chance to convince him otherwise but he's not doing well with it. It's possible that Griffin loses the job outright because of his well documented miscues. Lots of things are possible - we just don't know.

Do you think that's how Shanahan wants to play out the season?  Bad game from Griffin, give the ball to Bell.  Bad game from Bell, give the ball to Griffin.  Bad game from Griffin, etc.

No. He has, however, shown a willingness to change backs early in the season.

Where will the Bell supporters be next week after Griffin has a big game?  I want to see some projections.  If Griffin is so terrible, how bad will he do next week?

When did I say Griffin was "so terrible"? All I've pointed out is the problem with the fumbling and his late game woes, which I called this week and was dead on.

I'll project the game, but I expect you to do the same. I think Griffin has a good game - I'll say 80-120 yards with no fumbles - but Bell gets a couple carries early in the game, and a few more in late in the game to spell Griffin when they're running out the clock, getting between 4 and 10 carries for about 4 YPC.

Please be equally specific with your projections.

Sometimes these conversations are better when both people read.

Don't belittle me. It's not polite, and it's quite rude. I read your post, and it makes no sense. Don't blame me for your faulty logic.

Griffin "won" the job, at least to some extent, by default.

Not true. There was plenty of competition and speculation about the starter's job, but Griffin was the #1, albeit by a small margin at times, the whole way through, not by default. Last time I checked he wasn't the only RB on the roster at the start of training camp, and he's not the only RB on the roster now.

So if Bell were to come back healthy and take the job, it wouldn't be a case of Shanahan replacing the incumbent for bad performance, but a case of Shanahan playing the guy he wanted to play.

Here you are speculating that Griffin was only given the job because Bell wasn't healthy, and that when healthy, Shanahan may give the job to Bell because he is "the guy he wanted to play." This is pure speculation on your part, as Shanahan has never said anything about Bell being "the guy he wanted to play." I don't know why you suggest this when you have no basis for it.

It's possible that Shanahan wanted Bell to be the guy the whole time, and that Bell's injury gave Griffin a chance to convince him otherwise but he's not doing well with it. It's possible that Griffin loses the job outright because of his well documented miscues. Lots of things are possible - we just don't know.

I don't know how this is an answer to anything.

Not one of us knows which guy that is.

Lots of things are possible - we just don't know.

What is this accomplishing? Sitting on the fence claiming that "anything can happen" is a lack of opinion. You've obviously shown that you believe Bell will take over the job, so why not come out and say it? Be bold, make a prediction. If you think Griffin continues to struggle, then say so. Say that Bell will take over in week seven if that's what you believe. I don't share that same opinion, and I'm willing to admit that.

This is such a "Chicken Little" situation. A week ago everyone was high on Griffin. I tempered my enthusiasm, despite the fact that I fully believe he will be a solid football (and fantasy) player. Now this week everyone's screaming that Griffin will be losing his job, without basing that opinion on anything more than speculation. It's one game guys, the sky is not falling. I'm not saying it can't happen at some point, but this is way too early to be calling for a change.

Predictions for Griffin in Week 3: 100 yards rushing, 45 yards receiving, 1 TD

 

[Family Matters]

I said last week that if Griffin has anything less than a stellar game the Griffin haters and Bell man crush lovers would be having a field day. I won't partake any longer. I'm looking for bigger fish to fry!Do ya think Denver will trade Bell now that Griffin is the starter? lol

 

[mbuehner]

LOL @ the flip flopping. I have yet to have someone who is a Griffin supporter say "Yep, I still like the guy, but you are right. -1 yard in 6 4th quarter carries and a fumble at the end sure makes him look worse."

Yep, I still like the guy, but you are right. -1 yard in 6 4th quarter carries and a fumble at the end sure makes him look worse. But Denver is not, and has never been, looking for an excuse to bench Griffin. Quite the opposite.

 

[bostonfred2]

What is this accomplishing? Sitting on the fence claiming that "anything can happen" is a lack of opinion. You've obviously shown that you believe Bell will take over the job, so why not come out and say it? Be bold, make a prediction. If you think Griffin continues to struggle, then say so. Say that Bell will take over in week seven if that's what you believe. I don't share that same opinion, and I'm willing to admit that.

You can call my stance "sitting on the fence", but I'm not going to manufacture a stance on this. I don't know which one will end the season #1. I think someone will. Since his injury, I've said that there's a good chance - less than 50/50, but still a good chance - that Bell will be that guy. I think Griffin is a decent back, but he's not a good fit for that offense and he's had some early struggles that may open the door for Bell. I don't know enough about what Bell can do in the NFL to say if he's better than Griffin, but I'm trying to look at a high scoring position with open eyes. I actually don't think we're that far off. You're a little more optimistic about Griffin than I am, (I don't see any reason to expect him to get 45 yards receiving?), but you basically came back with similar projections to mine. The crux of the argument and of your misreading of my post seems to be that you're trying to prove that Griffin will be the guy, and you think I'm saying that Bell will be the guy. I assure you that's not the case. You've given a good take on the situation, and while you're willing to acknowledge the possibility that Bell takes the job, you're making an educated guess and you're taking a stance that your guess is right. I don't care about guessing right. I want the points from the Denver running back on my team. I think Bell is now more likely to get those points than he was a week ago, and I've been suggesting Griffin owners back him up with Bell for exactly that reason. My other point has been that, if Griffin struggles this week, or if Bell has a big game now that he's healthy, you won't be able to get him cheap anymore. I made the same point last week, and it bore out. As much as people react (or overreact) each week, the smart move is to stay ahead of the curve. In this case, I believe that means going out and getting Bell. Sorry about the misunderstanding, and I hope you find someone to take up the other side of your argument.

 

[P Boy]

Pony's big ugly negative stat that he's using to push his point is in error.

Q had 7 touches for 7 yards in the 4th quarter, fwiw.

6 carries for 3 and a reception for 4 (pretty impressive play, btw). Q has mad game. Be patient.

From NFL Gamebook:Fourth Quarter

Denver Broncos at 12:37

1-10-DEN13 (11:16) Q.Griffin right end to DEN 17 for 4 yards (M.Peterson).

1-16-DEN7 (10:52) Q.Griffin up the middle to DEN 6 for -1 yards (M.Peterson).

3-17-DEN6 (10:08) Q.Griffin up the middle to DEN 5 for -1 yards (D.Smith).

Denver Broncos at 06:34

3-1-DEN38 (4:16) Q.Griffin up the middle to DEN 36 for -2 yards (W.Blade).

Denver Broncos at 02:20

2-1-JAC26 (1:07) Q.Griffin right end to JAX 24 for 2 yards (D.Cooper).

2-10-JAC24 44) Q.Griffin left tackle to JAX 23 for 1 yard (L.Barnes).

3-9-DEN21 37) Q.Griffin FUMBLES (Aborted) at JAX 23, RECOVERED by JAX-A.Ayodele at JAX 21.

**************************************************************

Sorry, I was wrong. He did gain 1 yard total in 7 carries and then fumbled on his last carry. I guess my entire argument is moot and he is in fact a stud RB. Never mind.

 

[Joe Bryant]

It is beyond me why you give this baffoon the time of day. He is just a ####### the reached too early for Bell and it blew up in his face.He ate crow after week 1 and now after Q has a sub par day vs the best rush D in the NFL he is back again.Spout your nonsense after Q has 100 + and 2 tds vs SD. You are a joke, Pony Girl.

Hi OU Kurt. Thanks for posting the Shark Pool.One of Joe Bryant's favorite rules for the Shark Poool is: "Be excellent to each other"Name calling is strictly prohibited in the Shark Pool. One of my favorite sayings from Shick! (which you will find in several guys' signatures) is this:There is NO pissing in the Shark Pool, but you may sprinkle your name all over the FFA.I am sure I don't need to remind Pony not to bait you into responding by posting a nasty retort. If he does, I am sure someone will delete it out of hand.Thanks and I enjoy reading your thoughts around the Pool.

Thanks Marc.I know you guys are passionate about this - I am too. But please keep it excellent here. Before anyone beats me to it. But yeah, I'm serious.Thanks.J

 

[OU Kurt]

Sorry Joe and Marc...I am back to my happy place now. The Deuce for a negative deuce in my $ league had me a little on edge.Pony - I love you and respect your opinion on this matter.

 

[Peens]

Sorry Joe and Marc...I am back to my happy place now. The Deuce for a negative deuce in my $ league had me a little on edge.Pony - I love you and respect your opinion on this matter.

And Have a Great Season!! Now that I traded away Griffin last night in my Dynasty League for Peyton Manning straight up I'm now rooting for Bell!! Q Was the best 11th round pick I've ever had. Seriously tho, I hated to give up Q because I still think he will continue to be the man in denver, he will go off again this week against SD and the Bell lovers will be silenced for atleast a week.