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NY Giants/Jets Stadium naming rights controversy (1 Viewer)

Sweet Love

IBL Representative
I did not see this anywhere, so sorry if it is a Honda. I have to say this jumped out at me when I saw it. I am a life-long Jets fan that grew up 20 minutes outside of East Rutherford and spent many Sunday half-times in the spiral walkways getting beer dumped on me as a kid for a pocketful of change (Jets/Giants fans from the 80s will know what I am talking about). I am not Jewish, but have married a Jew and am raising my kids Jewish. I mention this because over the past 10 years, I have learned what "driving a German car" means to most Jews; I also know that many Jets fans are Jewish and having family now that is Jewish, I have to say, I would be put off myself if my own team sold out to company that swindled many of it patrons' predecessors...Put it this way: You go to a Jets game, buy a knish (traditional Jewish food) and a kosher hot dog (the current stadium vendor sells both), only to sit in seats subsidized by a company that helped eliminate your parents/grandparents.

On the flipside, what can Allianz do to make up for their wrongs? Obviously their current CEO and management group had NOTHING to do with the Holocaust, yet they are still supposed to be responsible for their predecessors atrocities. My personal thought is that they should bow out gracefully and if they really want to sponsor a stadium to raise their company's awareness in the US, do it somewhere else.

MODs: This is on the line of Shark Pool and FFA, so no worries if you move it to the FFA.

Stadium Naming Meets Resistance

By RICHARD SANDOMIR

Published: September 11, 2008

In five years as the chairman of the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority, Carl Goldberg said he has never received as many calls and media requests as he has since Wednesday about the Jets’ and the Giants’ talks to sell the naming rights to their new stadium to Allianz, a German insurance company with historic ties to the Nazis.

“We’ve dealt with a lot of controversial issues, but this has struck a nerve in a wide range of communities,” Goldberg said by telephone on Thursday. “I’m not sure if the sports authority does or does not have the legal right to intercede.”

The sports authority, which has no financial role in the $1.6 billion stadium, can only reject a naming rights deal with gambling, alcohol, tobacco or firearms sponsors.

“There is some language,” Goldberg added, “which can be debated, that can be construed as a morality provision.” But he said he will not do anything proactively until the Giants and Jets come to him and say they intend to proceed with the Allianz deal.

Scott Stringer, the Manhattan borough president, sent letters to Jets and Giants executives on Thursday asking that they end their negotiations with Allianz, and to Goldberg, demanding that the authority “act boldly” to spurn any ties with Allianz.

Stringer wrote to Goldberg that Allianz’s actions to expiate its guilt or make financial restitution should have nothing to do with a rejection of its bid. The company’s postwar behavior, he added, cannot reduce the pain Holocaust survivors and their families would feel if they saw Allianz’s name on the stadium.

“The name of Allianz on that stadium will bring enormous harm to the public,” Stringer wrote. “In this case, the harm may be emotional, but it is no less real.”

The teams maintained a curious silence on Thursday about the status of the deal, and a spokesman for Allianz would not say if the company was considering pulling out.

“There have been negotiations for a long time,” said Peter Lefkin, a senior vice president of Allianz’s United States operations, “but I don’t know the status of them.”

Steve Tisch, whose family owns half the Giants and who is the team’s chairman, has declined to comment about the months-long talks with Allianz. As a scion of a prominent family with strong ties to Jewish philanthropies, he may have strong opinions about how Allianz insured facilities at concentration camps like Auschwitz and betrayed thousands of its Jewish clients by giving the cash proceeds from their policies to the Nazis.

Are Tisch, John Mara, the Giants’ co-owner, and Woody Johnson, the Jets’ owner, willing to enter a public battle with Allianz’s critics? Survivors, their families and their advocates acknowledge that Allianz’s current management has nothing to do with Kurt Schmitt, the company’s chief executive who served in Hitler’s cabinet, or any of the company’s executives or policies in the 1930s and 1940s. But they believe Allianz has not come close to adequately compensating the victims of its complicity with the Nazis.

The last two days have no doubt been sobering for Allianz and the teams. But a minimal amount of vetting should have clued the teams into Allianz’s past.

Don’t they understand the risk of a sponsor being associated with Auschwitz?

Thane Rosenbaum, the author of “The Myth of Moral Justice: Why our Legal System Fails to Do What’s Right,” said Allianz’s intent in pursuing a deal with the Jets and Giants in a market with more survivors than any other in America is “only to have its name in neon, on what might become the most important football stadium in America. But the question is do they deserve it just because they can afford it?”

Rosenbaum, a law professor at Fordham University, said the moral taint of Allianz’s Nazi-era activities “never ends” and compels it to seek redemptive acts.

“I’d tell them that in addition to putting your name on the stadium, build a Holocaust memorial next door and write checks to Holocaust education,” he said,

But, he added, “If survivors feel revulsion at seeing the Allianz name on the stadium when they ride down Route 3, that’s the litmus test.”

With still-living survivors, the Holocaust is more contemporary than slavery, but no less resonant as an atrocity. Two financial institutions with arena naming rights apologized in 2005 for the slavery-era activities of banks that became parts of their empires.

Wachovia, the name on the arena where the Philadelphia 76ers and the Flyers play, apologized that two of its antecedents owned slaves, one of them taking ownership of them when customers defaulted on their loans. Several months before Bank One Ballpark became Chase Field, JPMorgan Chase apologized that two banks that are part of its history let customers use slaves as loan collateral.

E-mail: sportsbiz@nytimes.com

 
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I really hope nobody racist posts anything inappropriate here... I can see this thread going in a very bad direction

 
I really hope nobody racist posts anything inappropriate here... I can see this thread going in a very bad direction
I agree and I hope that it does not become either anti-Jew or anti-German. I am really curious to see how this is handled by the Jets/Giants owners and Stadium Authority and really do not want to rip into either "party".
 
Max Kellerman has been talking about this a lot the last couple of days. Says he would lead a boycott among Jets/Giants fans if Alliamz gets the rights. I can't imagine they will.

 
I mention this because over the past 10 years, I have learned what "driving a German car" means to most Jews;

Can you explain to me what this means, Have never heard it.

im Jewish and my old man wheeled a BMW.

 
Can you explain to me what this means, Have never heard it. im Jewish and my old man wheeled a BMW.
Some people affected by the holocaust (either directly or "spiritually") do not want to enrich or be associated with anything german, esp. if the company had a role in assisting the Nazis. i honestly don't know whether audi, mercedes or bmw were involved.
 
Can you explain to me what this means, Have never heard it. im Jewish and my old man wheeled a BMW.
Some people affected by the holocaust (either directly or "spiritually") do not want to enrich or be associated with anything german, esp. if the company had a role in assisting the Nazis. i honestly don't know whether audi, mercedes or bmw were involved.
Thanks, While i may not agree with the Car thing, i think there is a distinction there. Living 20 minutes from the stadium i would hope they go in another direction. Having said that, what the current owners are doing to the fans with parking and Tickets right now, i wouldn't be surprised at anything.
 
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Obviously Allianz current CEO and management group had NOTHING to do with the Holocaust

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then let it go.

 
Here's the article he wrote two days earlier that discusses the role of Allianz during the war and also their subsequent reparations:

The Giants and the Jets face moral and public-relations questions as they negotiate the possible sale of the naming rights to their new stadium with Allianz, a Munich-based insurer and financial services company with disturbing connections to Nazi Germany.

Allianz insured facilities and personnel at concentration camps like Auschwitz and Dachau. Kurt Schmitt, its chief executive in the 1930s, served as Hitler’s second economics minister and can be seen in a photograph from a rally wearing an SS-Oberführer’s uniform and delivering the Nazi salute with Hitler standing in front of him.

Like other insurers in Germany at the time, Allianz followed anti-Semitic policies by terminating or refusing to pay off the life insurance policies of Jews, and sent cash that was due beneficiaries and survivors to the Nazis.

It also became the insurer of Jewish valuables taken by the Nazis.

Gerald Feldman was a historian asked by Allianz in 1997 to produce an unfettered history of its role in Hitler’s Germany. He wrote in “Allianz and the German Insurance Business, 1933-1945” about when the company extended its group accident insurance for engineers working for the notorious I.G. Farben chemical company at Auschwitz.

“It was just one more piece of business in the Third Reich,” he wrote in his book, which was published in 2001, “but it demonstrated that such pieces on any large scale made contact at some point with all that is represented by the name ‘Auschwitz’ — from slave labor to extermination — virtually inescapable.”

A deal with Allianz would not be easy to sell publicly, like Citigroup’s with the Mets. The possibility of an Allianz Stadium will make some people cringe, especially in a market that is home to many Jewish people, and in which the Tisch family, which owns half of the Giants, has supported many Jewish causes.

“There must be sensitivity to the psychological impact this would have,” said Elan Steinberg, a vice president of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors and Their Descendants. “Survivors are still alive. It would not be appropriate to affix the Allianz name to a stadium name in an area where a lot of survivors still living.”

A serious burden will be on the Giants and the Jets to persuade fans and others of the propriety of naming a stadium for Allianz, even if its terrible era is more than 60 years past. The teams have hired a crisis management firm to vet all naming rights candidates, but it is certain that most of its time has been spent on Allianz.

Even the best arguments in Allianz’s favor are imperfect. The teams can say that Allianz has done much to atone for its role before and during the war, but no amount of apologies or restitution to victims and survivors can make full amends for its past.

The teams can say Allianz participated in two major efforts that began in the 1990s to compensate slave and forced laborers as well as insurance policy holders — but only after pressure from the American government, state insurance regulators and Jewish groups, and class-action suits filed in federal court.

The teams refused to speak about Allianz, which has United States subsidiaries like Fireman’s Fund Insurance and Oppenheimer Capital, because a deal is not done. And Allianz refused to discuss the naming-rights negotiations.

But Peter Lefkin, a senior vice president of Allianz of America, said, “Over the years, Allianz has done everything possible to redress all the wrongs perpetuated by the Third Reich.”

Stuart Eizenstat, who was President Clinton’s special representative on Holocaust-era issues, said that Allianz cooperated on compensation, but only after it demanded legal protection from being sued, which he felt was appropriate.

“Allianz paid all its claims under I.C.H.E.I.C.,” he said, referring to the International Commission on Holocaust Era Insurance Claims, which has distributed more than $300 million to 48,000 claimants. “It paid its dues, participated in a good-faith process, and has continued to pay claims even after I.C.H.E.I.C. closed it doors last year.”

Critics insist that Allianz and other companies have not paid nearly enough under a very flawed process. Sidney Zabludoff, an economist who specializes in restitution finances, said Allianz acted “reasonably,” but operated under “German rules” that kept its payments at a lower rate than those paid by insurers in other European countries.

In all, he said, Allianz has paid claimants about $12 million through International Commission on Holocaust Era Insurance Claims.

The Jets and the Giants will now determine if Allianz will be able to use their stadium to extend its global brand to the United States by paying them $20 million or $30 million a year.

Michael J. Bazyler, a professor at the Chapman University School of Law and the author of “Holocaust Justice,” said accepting the concept of Allianz Stadium might be as individual a choice as buying a German car, which he would not.

“If it was Allianz Stadium, would I not go to the game?” Bazyler said, the son of Holocaust survivors. “I’d feel uncomfortable. But when people think of a German company that cooperated with the Nazis, Allianz doesn’t pop up.”

 
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I think the car thing really is towards Volkswagon. Hitler belived that the Germans should all own one and that is how the company started. Not sure if they funded the Nazis but they were definitely supported by the Nazis. I learned what Volk meant in college but it is slipping my mind now. I think something along the line of people. So it was a peoples wagon. Not sure though

 
I think the car thing really is towards Volkswagon. Hitler belived that the Germans should all own one and that is how the company started. Not sure if they funded the Nazis but they were definitely supported by the Nazis. I learned what Volk meant in college but it is slipping my mind now. I think something along the line of people. So it was a peoples wagon. Not sure though
"In 1934, Ferdinand Porsche was commissioned to build a small, inexpensive car at the request of Adolph Hitler. His answer -- a beetle-shaped sedan that was called a Volkswagen (German for "people's car") -- debuted two years later. Hitler had a town built near the plant for factory workers; he named it Kraft durch Freude Stadt (derived from the Nazi party's motto, "Joy through Strength"), and soon decided that Porsche's creation should be named the KdF-wagen (short for the "Joy through Strength" car). This upset Porsche, who was not political." (source: edmunds.com)
 
I think the car thing really is towards Volkswagon. Hitler belived that the Germans should all own one and that is how the company started. Not sure if they funded the Nazis but they were definitely supported by the Nazis. I learned what Volk meant in college but it is slipping my mind now. I think something along the line of people. So it was a peoples wagon. Not sure though
"In 1934, Ferdinand Porsche was commissioned to build a small, inexpensive car at the request of Adolph Hitler. His answer -- a beetle-shaped sedan that was called a Volkswagen (German for "people's car") -- debuted two years later. Hitler had a town built near the plant for factory workers; he named it Kraft durch Freude Stadt (derived from the Nazi party's motto, "Joy through Strength"), and soon decided that Porsche's creation should be named the KdF-wagen (short for the "Joy through Strength" car). This upset Porsche, who was not political." (source: edmunds.com)
Porsche later built tanks for Hitler.We're in a globally interconnected economy, so you're going to have companies in your lives that have shady pasts in one form or another. When was the last time you went and made sure that none of the products you use include chemicals or polymers from Union Carbide, or screened companies that do business with Sudan, to name just two examples? This is in the spirit of "never forget" and I appreciate that, but we're reaching a point in history where attributing Holocaust responsibility to companies seems silly.
 
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The foo said:
Mystery Achiever said:
The foo said:
Can you explain to me what this means, Have never heard it. im Jewish and my old man wheeled a BMW.
Some people affected by the holocaust (either directly or "spiritually") do not want to enrich or be associated with anything german, esp. if the company had a role in assisting the Nazis. i honestly don't know whether audi, mercedes or bmw were involved.
Thanks, While i may not agree with the Car thing, i think there is a distinction there. Living 20 minutes from the stadium i would hope they go in another direction. Having said that, what the current owners are doing to the fans with parking and Tickets right now, i wouldn't be surprised at anything.
Yeah, a couple of the automakers took part in the Holocaust...not necessarily building cars, but I believe Daimler had something to do with the chambers, etc. As I said, I would hate to turn it into one side versus the other, I just think that if they do go with Allianz, this will be pretty big news as many may boycott. The NFL is very image conscience, so I would not be surprised to see them step in or at least advise.
 
Jets season ticket holder here, as well as someone who is 100% Jewish:

I'd be a hypocrite to say that Allianz shouldn't be involved, as I work for a large Swiss bank (most of whom obviously had confirmed dealings with the Nazis) that puts food on my table and pays my mortgage.

I've belabored this all my life, but in the end it's hard to fault a company whose executives two generations ago had ties to Nazi Germany. They shouldn't be faulted any more than most existing German citizens. There's enough blame to go around for of a lot of companies over the years, including some American firms.

 
The Tish Family which are partially owners of the Giants are Jewish themselves! If they don't care and they own the dam team then why should I care? The past is the past and thats exaclty where it should stay IMO.

 
Obviously Allianz current CEO and management group had NOTHING to do with the Holocaust-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Then let it go.
It's not quite as simple as that - especially when you realize that MANY people alive still were DIRECTLY affected by the Holocaust (i.e. I dont have 85% of my family on my mothers side as they were tortured and murdered). This is not ancient history.The big issue is not the current management's involvement but the sentiment that the company has not taken any legitimate steps to pay for its past sins. While the management might not be responsible, the corporate entity does hold some lasting responsibility and apparantly has not done nearly enough in terms of compensation etc. toward those they helped harm.That said, a couple thoughts:(1) NO WAY should they take this company as the name for the stadium, NOR WILL THEY - it would be a PR DISASTER... ESPECIALLY in New York with its very large and influential Jewish population(2) It must be understood that Germany has as good a relationship with Israel - politically, economically, tourism - than any nation in the world outside of the U.S. They Germans have made TREMENDOUS efforts to atone for their sins and there is a lot of trade and cultural interaction between the nations and their people.In the end, those running the company now are not responsible, but that does not dissolve the responsibility of the corporate entity if it never truly tried to make right (even a little, you cant make right insuring mass murder camps) for its past wrongs. Regardless, with any tinge or cloud hanging over, for a stadium that is using public funds/improvements, charging a ton for seat liscences and a team that is representative of its fan base, you simply can not take the PR hit of accepting this bid.And for that reason, it won't happen. And honestly, shouldnt.
 
The Tish Family which are partially owners of the Giants are Jewish themselves! If they don't care and they own the dam team then why should I care? The past is the past and thats exaclty where it should stay IMO.
When I was 12 (35 now), my grandmother killed herself in large part as the final step of a lifelong depression and pain from seeing her whole family murdered.I never knew my real grandfather.I don't have aunts, uncles... almost no family on my mother's side.It may be past in some ways, but it is very recent past - and it affects my present to this day.
 
(1) NO WAY should they take this company as the name for the stadium, NOR WILL THEY - it would be a PR DISASTER... ESPECIALLY in New York with its very large and influential Jewish population(2) It must be understood that Germany has as good a relationship with Israel - politically, economically, tourism - than any nation in the world outside of the U.S. They Germans have made TREMENDOUS efforts to atone for their sins and there is a lot of trade and cultural interaction between the nations and their people.In the end, those running the company now are not responsible, but that does not dissolve the responsibility of the corporate entity if it never truly tried to make right (even a little, you cant make right insuring mass murder camps) for its past wrongs. Regardless, with any tinge or cloud hanging over, for a stadium that is using public funds/improvements, charging a ton for seat liscences and a team that is representative of its fan base, you simply can not take the PR hit of accepting this bid.And for that reason, it won't happen. And honestly, shouldnt.
This is how I see it, too. It may not matter to many people, and over time will likely matter to less. But there are probably more Holocaust survivors in the NY area than anywhere in the country. Having never had to stand in line to go into an oven, I'm not going to call the reaction of anyone who has - or whose family has- silly or overstated.
 
Fwiw, could we get a title change? The company does not HAVE Nazi ties, they HAD them (and may not have done their part to apologize, repay, whatever).

This is an important distinction. Not like they belong to some current Nazi organization nor even aupport any such cause.

 
Geez, we're talking about something that happened over 60 years ago. It's not like they were individually responsible. The Berlin Philharmonic has played in Israel, the Israeli Symphony orchestra has performed Wagner.

 
Fwiw, could we get a title change? The company does not HAVE Nazi ties, they HAD them (and may not have done their part to apologize, repay, whatever). This is an important distinction. Not like they belong to some current Nazi organization nor even aupport any such cause.
Sure thing...you are correct.
 


Geez, we're talking about something that happened over 60 years ago. It's not like they were individually responsible. The Berlin Philharmonic has played in Israel, the Israeli Symphony orchestra has performed Wagner.
I guess the fact that my real grandfather whom I never met, who was murdered along with 85% of my family doesnt matter. I STILL dont know my grandfather, STILL never had my aunts and uncles, STILL have the memory of my grandmother finally giving into the pain and killing herself when I was 12... but it was 60 years ago. Hell, bygones be bygones, right?The German government has gone to GREAT lengths to make up, as best it can, for the atrocities committed. So too have many companies. Wagner is art, that is different. the Philarmonic is an example of the immense cultural (and economic) exchange between Israel and German cultures and nations.

As I understand it, THIS company has not lived up to its obligations since the atrocities were committed... the individuals involved now are not responsible for 60 years ago, but they (1) are a part of that company that has its legacy and (2) that legacy was not properly cleared... and it doesnt seem like this current management has done its part to make good for those sins of the past.

 
I really hope nobody racist posts anything inappropriate here... I can see this thread going in a very bad direction
I agree and I hope that it does not become either anti-Jew or anti-German. I am really curious to see how this is handled by the Jets/Giants owners and Stadium Authority and really do not want to rip into either "party".
without sounding anti-anything, can we lock this thread down, because this is a site about fantasy football,not naming rights to stadiums, or WW2, about Anti-Jewish sentiment, or pro-Nazi sentiment, or anything like that.there are plenty of forums to post these concerns..I doubt your message is going to hit the right audience in a fantasy football forum.you have great intentions, I'm sure.. but can we stick with fantasy football related topics in here, please?

-disclaimer

I work in Rutherford,NJ, live in Morris Plains.. ..if ever there was a shred of doubt about the companies intentions , we'd hear from the large Jewish-American population that thrives in the North Jersey and in particular, Bergen County areas..

these teams know their audience and the demographics of the region, I guarantee they've done their due diligence on this matter..

:lmao:

 
It is over:

Giants, Jets cancel talks with Allianz

tNEWARK, N.J. (AP)The New York Giants and New York Jets ended naming-rights talks with a German insurance company that once had ties to the Nazis.

Allianz (AHL’-ee-ahns) had been looking to buy naming rights to the stadium being built in northern New Jersey.

The move was criticized by Jewish groups and Holocaust survivors. The company says it has atoned for its history and should not be judged by its World War II record.

Allianz officials confirmed that talks have ended. Discussions are continuing with other potential partners for naming rights.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-g...p&type=lgns

 
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I really hope nobody racist posts anything inappropriate here... I can see this thread going in a very bad direction
I agree and I hope that it does not become either anti-Jew or anti-German. I am really curious to see how this is handled by the Jets/Giants owners and Stadium Authority and really do not want to rip into either "party".
without sounding anti-anything, can we lock this thread down, because this is a site about fantasy football,not naming rights to stadiums, or WW2, about Anti-Jewish sentiment, or pro-Nazi sentiment, or anything like that.there are plenty of forums to post these concerns..I doubt your message is going to hit the right audience in a fantasy football forum.you have great intentions, I'm sure.. but can we stick with fantasy football related topics in here, please?

-disclaimer

I work in Rutherford,NJ, live in Morris Plains.. ..if ever there was a shred of doubt about the companies intentions , we'd hear from the large Jewish-American population that thrives in the North Jersey and in particular, Bergen County areas..

these teams know their audience and the demographics of the region, I guarantee they've done their due diligence on this matter..

:thumbup:
It actually is a Forum to discuss NFL issues and I did mention in the original post that if Mods felt it was better suited for the FFA to move it there...seems as though it is a moot point as per the last posting.
 
Obviously Allianz current CEO and management group had NOTHING to do with the Holocaust-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Then let it go.
It's not quite as simple as that - especially when you realize that MANY people alive still were DIRECTLY affected by the Holocaust (i.e. I dont have 85% of my family on my mothers side as they were tortured and murdered). This is not ancient history.
Just to add some perspective... I don't have 85% of my family on my mothers side because they have passed due to old age. Let's say in theory the people who made money from this company seventy years ago were so riddled with guilt they dissolved the company, but used the money earned to start a new one. Would that company be boycotted too?I have also read IBM sold business equipment to Germany during the War (typewriters and such I think). I pay less attention to sponsors than I used to but I seem to recall that they are a pretty big sponsor of the entire NFL. So shouldn't Jewish people boycott the entire NFL? If not the logic does not hold.I am not going to go so far as to say "get over it", because I think that is absurd. I also think this boycott is equally absurd.
 
j3r3m3y said:
Obviously Allianz current CEO and management group had NOTHING to do with the Holocaust-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Then let it go.
It's not quite as simple as that - especially when you realize that MANY people alive still were DIRECTLY affected by the Holocaust (i.e. I dont have 85% of my family on my mothers side as they were tortured and murdered). This is not ancient history.
Just to add some perspective... I don't have 85% of my family on my mothers side because they have passed due to old age. Let's say in theory the people who made money from this company seventy years ago were so riddled with guilt they dissolved the company, but used the money earned to start a new one. Would that company be boycotted too?I have also read IBM sold business equipment to Germany during the War (typewriters and such I think). I pay less attention to sponsors than I used to but I seem to recall that they are a pretty big sponsor of the entire NFL. So shouldn't Jewish people boycott the entire NFL? If not the logic does not hold.I am not going to go so far as to say "get over it", because I think that is absurd. I also think this boycott is equally absurd.
Did you REALLY compare the passing of people from old age to the fact that I HAD TO GROW UP WITHOUT GRANDPARENTS, UNCLES, AUNTS? That my MOTHER grew up without a real father and was actually born DURING the Holocaust (UNDER the ground, in hiding, in Poland)? Really?And then you say you won't go so far as to say "get over it?" I will let your words speak for themselves rather than go any further on this matter. But obviously some people are utterly clueless as to the reach of pain from the horror of the Holocaust. Please do reconsider your sentiments, because equating you not having family because we all get old and die to me (and especially my mother, and her entire generation - the few that were not murdered like cattle) is beyond insulting and I hope in your heart you can realize that.
 
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Well, the United States government secretly pardoned and imported Nazi scientists to work for our government in an operation called Project Paperclip.

Also, Prescott Bush, father of George Bush Sr and grandfather of our current president was penalized under the "Trading with the Enemy Act" for funding/supporting the Nazi party through several companies.

I'd say that should be a bigger deal than the name of a football stadium.

 
Well, the United States government secretly pardoned and imported Nazi scientists to work for our government in an operation called Project Paperclip.Also, Prescott Bush, father of George Bush Sr and grandfather of our current president was penalized under the "Trading with the Enemy Act" for funding/supporting the Nazi party through several companies.I'd say that should be a bigger deal than the name of a football stadium.
I expected this to be posted a lot sooner, way to deliver. :goodposting:
 
The holocaust was horrible but it wasn't and isn't the only time in history where countless people were slaughtered. It still happens to this day, look at Darfur, Serbia? Of course those people have no $$ or influence in this country so they are not equated. Don't get me wrong, I'm not downplaying the horror of the holocaust. We said never again and guess what it's still happening. Native Americans were slaughtered and had their land stolen too but we don't ever hear about that? I only wish all of these attrocities had similar public sympathy in this country. I don't feel one group of people is more important than any others.

 
j3r3m3y said:
Obviously Allianz current CEO and management group had NOTHING to do with the Holocaust-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Then let it go.
It's not quite as simple as that - especially when you realize that MANY people alive still were DIRECTLY affected by the Holocaust (i.e. I dont have 85% of my family on my mothers side as they were tortured and murdered). This is not ancient history.
Just to add some perspective... I don't have 85% of my family on my mothers side because they have passed due to old age. Let's say in theory the people who made money from this company seventy years ago were so riddled with guilt they dissolved the company, but used the money earned to start a new one. Would that company be boycotted too?I have also read IBM sold business equipment to Germany during the War (typewriters and such I think). I pay less attention to sponsors than I used to but I seem to recall that they are a pretty big sponsor of the entire NFL. So shouldn't Jewish people boycott the entire NFL? If not the logic does not hold.I am not going to go so far as to say "get over it", because I think that is absurd. I also think this boycott is equally absurd.
Did you REALLY compare the passing of people from old age to the fact that I HAD TO GROW UP WITHOUT GRANDPARENTS, UNCLES, AUNTS? That my MOTHER grew up without a real father and was actually born DURING the Holocaust (UNDER the ground, in hiding, in Poland)? Really?And then you say you won't go so far as to say "get over it?" I will let your words speak for themselves rather than go any further on this matter. But obviously some people are utterly clueless as to the reach of pain from the horror of the Holocaust. Please do reconsider your sentiments, because equating you not having family because we all get old and die to me (and especially my mother, and her entire generation - the few that were not murdered like cattle) is beyond insulting and I hope in your heart you can realize that.
I had a professor that said words very similar to ones you are responding to Koya. I basically stood up and asked " Are you kidding me?" I walked out of that class and never took another one of that guy's classes again.
 
j3r3m3y said:
Obviously Allianz current CEO and management group had NOTHING to do with the Holocaust-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Then let it go.
It's not quite as simple as that - especially when you realize that MANY people alive still were DIRECTLY affected by the Holocaust (i.e. I dont have 85% of my family on my mothers side as they were tortured and murdered). This is not ancient history.
Just to add some perspective... I don't have 85% of my family on my mothers side because they have passed due to old age. Let's say in theory the people who made money from this company seventy years ago were so riddled with guilt they dissolved the company, but used the money earned to start a new one. Would that company be boycotted too?I have also read IBM sold business equipment to Germany during the War (typewriters and such I think). I pay less attention to sponsors than I used to but I seem to recall that they are a pretty big sponsor of the entire NFL. So shouldn't Jewish people boycott the entire NFL? If not the logic does not hold.I am not going to go so far as to say "get over it", because I think that is absurd. I also think this boycott is equally absurd.
Did you REALLY compare the passing of people from old age to the fact that I HAD TO GROW UP WITHOUT GRANDPARENTS, UNCLES, AUNTS? That my MOTHER grew up without a real father and was actually born DURING the Holocaust (UNDER the ground, in hiding, in Poland)? Really?And then you say you won't go so far as to say "get over it?" I will let your words speak for themselves rather than go any further on this matter. But obviously some people are utterly clueless as to the reach of pain from the horror of the Holocaust. Please do reconsider your sentiments, because equating you not having family because we all get old and die to me (and especially my mother, and her entire generation - the few that were not murdered like cattle) is beyond insulting and I hope in your heart you can realize that.
:bye: It's amazing how clueless and classless some people around here are. It's not just in threads like this. People celebrating serious injuries, etc...
 
We may be approaching time for the move to FFA, but that's okay. In addition to the insults to Koya, I would like to point out that selling office supplies is not in the same league as selling life insurance and then giving the proceeds to the Nazis instead of the people who paid for it.

And, ROCKET, I don't think anyone here is trying to put this example above the terrible things that have been done to others. It is just one specific case we're discussing.

 
Well, the United States government secretly pardoned and imported Nazi scientists to work for our government in an operation called Project Paperclip.Also, Prescott Bush, father of George Bush Sr and grandfather of our current president was penalized under the "Trading with the Enemy Act" for funding/supporting the Nazi party through several companies.I'd say that should be a bigger deal than the name of a football stadium.
I expected this to be posted a lot sooner, way to deliver. :football:
Well, it's relevant to the discussion isn't it?... nothing wrong w/ a little historical perspective, IMO.
 
j3r3m3y said:
Obviously Allianz current CEO and management group had NOTHING to do with the Holocaust-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Then let it go.
It's not quite as simple as that - especially when you realize that MANY people alive still were DIRECTLY affected by the Holocaust (i.e. I dont have 85% of my family on my mothers side as they were tortured and murdered). This is not ancient history.
Just to add some perspective... I don't have 85% of my family on my mothers side because they have passed due to old age. Let's say in theory the people who made money from this company seventy years ago were so riddled with guilt they dissolved the company, but used the money earned to start a new one. Would that company be boycotted too?I have also read IBM sold business equipment to Germany during the War (typewriters and such I think). I pay less attention to sponsors than I used to but I seem to recall that they are a pretty big sponsor of the entire NFL. So shouldn't Jewish people boycott the entire NFL? If not the logic does not hold.I am not going to go so far as to say "get over it", because I think that is absurd. I also think this boycott is equally absurd.
Did you REALLY compare the passing of people from old age to the fact that I HAD TO GROW UP WITHOUT GRANDPARENTS, UNCLES, AUNTS? That my MOTHER grew up without a real father and was actually born DURING the Holocaust (UNDER the ground, in hiding, in Poland)? Really?And then you say you won't go so far as to say "get over it?" I will let your words speak for themselves rather than go any further on this matter. But obviously some people are utterly clueless as to the reach of pain from the horror of the Holocaust. Please do reconsider your sentiments, because equating you not having family because we all get old and die to me (and especially my mother, and her entire generation - the few that were not murdered like cattle) is beyond insulting and I hope in your heart you can realize that.
I had a professor that said words very similar to ones you are responding to Koya. I basically stood up and asked " Are you kidding me?" I walked out of that class and never took another one of that guy's classes again.
I do apologize for hijacking a bit here, but that was really a bit much to let slide. This is not some cry of victim, or PC reaction, because it scares me how many DON'T understand what happened literally to my mother's generation, and one step removed (but feeling the harsh reality) my generation. It's a direct effect, and that is why the Giants did the right thing here. Once again, this is not to insinuate in any way that the current management/managers are anything but good, upstanding, normal people. But this is too dicey a situation, and in terms of just PR it is not palalable (sp?) for the Giants... because if, as we believe now, true or not, that this company was very heavily involved and may not have done as much as other companies since the Holocaust, you can't have that association with your team. Not if you understand, care about, and respect a significant part of your fan base (and your City).Anyway, usually, my righteous indignation is saved for the FFA. Well, most of it at least.
 
Would it be offensive if Germany had soccer team names like the Berlin Jews or the Munich Knishes?

Obviously it would.

Reading these posts, gives me a slightly better understanding as to why Native Americans have protested the use of names like the Washington Redskins, Florida Seminoles Atlanta Brave etc...

 
j3r3m3y said:
Obviously Allianz current CEO and management group had NOTHING to do with the Holocaust-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Then let it go.
It's not quite as simple as that - especially when you realize that MANY people alive still were DIRECTLY affected by the Holocaust (i.e. I dont have 85% of my family on my mothers side as they were tortured and murdered). This is not ancient history.
Just to add some perspective... I don't have 85% of my family on my mothers side because they have passed due to old age. Let's say in theory the people who made money from this company seventy years ago were so riddled with guilt they dissolved the company, but used the money earned to start a new one. Would that company be boycotted too?I have also read IBM sold business equipment to Germany during the War (typewriters and such I think). I pay less attention to sponsors than I used to but I seem to recall that they are a pretty big sponsor of the entire NFL. So shouldn't Jewish people boycott the entire NFL? If not the logic does not hold.I am not going to go so far as to say "get over it", because I think that is absurd. I also think this boycott is equally absurd.
Did you REALLY compare the passing of people from old age to the fact that I HAD TO GROW UP WITHOUT GRANDPARENTS, UNCLES, AUNTS? That my MOTHER grew up without a real father and was actually born DURING the Holocaust (UNDER the ground, in hiding, in Poland)? Really?And then you say you won't go so far as to say "get over it?" I will let your words speak for themselves rather than go any further on this matter. But obviously some people are utterly clueless as to the reach of pain from the horror of the Holocaust. Please do reconsider your sentiments, because equating you not having family because we all get old and die to me (and especially my mother, and her entire generation - the few that were not murdered like cattle) is beyond insulting and I hope in your heart you can realize that.
I had a professor that said words very similar to ones you are responding to Koya. I basically stood up and asked " Are you kidding me?" I walked out of that class and never took another one of that guy's classes again.
I do apologize for hijacking a bit here, but that was really a bit much to let slide. This is not some cry of victim, or PC reaction, because it scares me how many DON'T understand what happened literally to my mother's generation, and one step removed (but feeling the harsh reality) my generation. It's a direct effect, and that is why the Giants did the right thing here. Once again, this is not to insinuate in any way that the current management/managers are anything but good, upstanding, normal people. But this is too dicey a situation, and in terms of just PR it is not palalable (sp?) for the Giants... because if, as we believe now, true or not, that this company was very heavily involved and may not have done as much as other companies since the Holocaust, you can't have that association with your team. Not if you understand, care about, and respect a significant part of your fan base (and your City).Anyway, usually, my righteous indignation is saved for the FFA. Well, most of it at least.
Well put, and great response to j3r3m3y. As someone who lost two whole branches of my family to the Holocaust myself (both of my grandmothers' extended family and a sprinkling of other great aunts and uncles and cousins), it's incredible to me not just how much ignorance still remains in the world -- about the Holocaust and truthfully, any other act of mass genocide -- but why others bother to dispute or argue counterpositions "logically." You handled that much better than I would have.It's hard to look dispassionately at an event that personally effects you and your loved ones, and carries a lot of historic emotion, but most here have this right in that in the end, for Giants and Jets brass, this really has more to do with PR than anything else. As it should be.You can't place the onus of the Holocaust (or any genocide) on one company, especially when those presently involved in the day-to-day management had nothing to do with it. And especially as they were not the only company -- German or otherwise -- to engage in war profiteering. Bottom line is that if this deal was made, a good portion of the fanbase would be placed at unease, and a PR nightmare would ensue as pictures of Schmitt in full SS regalia with hand raise in a heil Hitler salute would undoubtedly be plastered all over the media, creating an indelible -- and to some, painful -- image.That's likely what was foremost in the Giants/Jets minds, but either way, they did the right thing for their teams, and for a significant portion of their fans.
 
We may be approaching time for the move to FFA, but that's okay. In addition to the insults to Koya, I would like to point out that selling office supplies is not in the same league as selling life insurance and then giving the proceeds to the Nazis instead of the people who paid for it.And, ROCKET, I don't think anyone here is trying to put this example above the terrible things that have been done to others. It is just one specific case we're discussing.
Did I say anyone here was putting the holocaust above any other attrocities? I did say that the media is heavily biased when it concerns the holocaust as opposed to other attrocities that go on even to this day. Tens of thousands of people continue to be slaughtered on a daily basis in places like Darfur and you don't hear a word about it in the news. Do you ever hear a word about the racial cleansing and genocide that went on in Serbia less than a decade ago? Do you think 60 years from now anyone will even remember those people or even care about some corporation that was doing business with those responsible? I don't, but you'll still hear about the holocaust.
 
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