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ObamaCare aka "Patient Protection & Affordable Care Act" (1 Viewer)

'lakerstan said:
'johnnyrock62000 said:
We are looking at an annual 2.3% tax on 25.7 billion (2011) gross trade sales (of course it's not operating income), resulting in a taxable amount of about 592 MM based on 2011 sales. Also looking at a 92.4 MM market share tax for simply operating in the pharmaceutical space. So about 5.5% additional tax.
:eek: :eek: :eek: That is insane. I can't see how that's good for America. No doubt that will raise premiums and provide disincentives to medical entrepreneurs. Makes me sick.
Remember that 30 million people will now have health care that didn't before. That theoretically means an increased demand for goods and services, and the possibility of increased revenues. My guess is that while not a complete wash, there will be some money coming back into the positive as well...
One way to look at it is that 16.3% of Americans do not currently have health insurance. Once they are insured that amounts to a 16.3% increase in revenue. Margins are quite high in that industry (J&J had a 33% operating margin in 2010 and 20% in 2011) so it's easy to imagine that profits from the additional insured will be greater than the tax. A 16.3% increase in sales of $25.7B is $4.19B, using the lower 2011 margin (20%) would give them $838M in additional profit.
 
'lakerstan said:
'johnnyrock62000 said:
We are looking at an annual 2.3% tax on 25.7 billion (2011) gross trade sales (of course it's not operating income), resulting in a taxable amount of about 592 MM based on 2011 sales. Also looking at a 92.4 MM market share tax for simply operating in the pharmaceutical space. So about 5.5% additional tax.
:eek: :eek: :eek: That is insane. I can't see how that's good for America. No doubt that will raise premiums and provide disincentives to medical entrepreneurs. Makes me sick.
Remember that 30 million people will now have health care that didn't before. That theoretically means an increased demand for goods and services, and the possibility of increased revenues. My guess is that while not a complete wash, there will be some money coming back into the positive as well...
One way to look at it is that 16.3% of Americans do not currently have health insurance. Once they are insured that amounts to a 16.3% increase in revenue. Margins are quite high in that industry (J&J had a 33% operating margin in 2010 and 20% in 2011) so it's easy to imagine that profits from the additional insured will be greater than the tax. A 16.3% increase in sales of $25.7B is $4.19B, using the lower 2011 margin (20%) would give them $838M in additional profit.
I fully understand that there is the potential for increased revenues due to more insureds, but there are no guarantees. A new 2.3% tax on revenues appears to be a lock. It's a lot of work to make up that much revenue just to break even with year-over-year sales.
 
Starting next year, the federal government will charge a new fee on health insurance firms based on the plans they sell to individuals and companies, known as the fully insured market. Meanwhile, the provision exempts health-insurance plans that are set up and operated by businesses themselves (the self-insured market).

Revenue from the tax will help pay for the health-care overhaul, which is expected to extend coverage to millions of uninsured or underinsured Americans.

However, because most large corporations self-insure their workforce, experts warn that insurance companies will pass the costs directly to small businesses. The vast majority purchase coverage in the fully insured market.

“Insurers have confirmed back to me that the tax will be passed down to consumers, and the direct impact will be staggering,” Ryan Thorn, owner of a small insurance planning firm near Salt Lake City, told lawmakers during a congressional hearing Thursday. “It disproportionately hits individuals and small-business owners, the people who have been hurt most by these challenging times.”
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-05-12/business/39210827_1_health-insurance-plans-insurance-providers-insurance-companies

I don't know if any have spoken to small business owners or heard scuttlebutt around your workplaces about increased health care costs brought on by the new law but this what I've heard:

- Employee insurance costs up 30+%.

- No new hiring.

- No bonuses or cutbacks on salaries & bonuses

- Possible firings or otherwise "transitioning" full time employees to part time or on a "call in" basis.

Also, I have no idea what some people who have been forgoing health insurance for other priorities like tuition or childcare or automobile repairs etc., but when those folks get their health care tax next year it ain't gonna be pretty.

According to the Washington Post the IRS will spend close to $1 trillion and assign somewhere around an additional 2200 employees just to enforce the laws this year.

 
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Starting next year, the federal government will charge a new fee on health insurance firms based on the plans they sell to individuals and companies, known as the fully insured market. Meanwhile, the provision exempts health-insurance plans that are set up and operated by businesses themselves (the self-insured market).

Revenue from the tax will help pay for the health-care overhaul, which is expected to extend coverage to millions of uninsured or underinsured Americans.

However, because most large corporations self-insure their workforce, experts warn that insurance companies will pass the costs directly to small businesses. The vast majority purchase coverage in the fully insured market.

“Insurers have confirmed back to me that the tax will be passed down to consumers, and the direct impact will be staggering,” Ryan Thorn, owner of a small insurance planning firm near Salt Lake City, told lawmakers during a congressional hearing Thursday. “It disproportionately hits individuals and small-business owners, the people who have been hurt most by these challenging times.”
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-05-12/business/39210827_1_health-insurance-plans-insurance-providers-insurance-companies

I don't know if any have spoken to small business owners or heard scuttlebutt around your workplaces but this what I've heard:

- Employee insurance costs up 30+%.

- No new hiring.

- No bonuses or cutbacks on salaries & bonuses

- Possible firings or otherwise "transitioning" full time employees to part time or on a "call in" basis.

Also, I have no idea what some people who have been forgoing health insurance for other priorities like tuition or childcare or automobile repairs etc., but when those folks get their health care tax next year it ain't gonna be pretty.
I run a small company day to day. We aren't firing anyone. We aren't cutting anyone's hours. And we are small enough we don't even have to provide insurance. But we do. In fact we even just hired another employee two weeks ago. May be in the market for another soon. Not seeing the big deal when it comes to our bottom line.

 
Starting next year, the federal government will charge a new fee on health insurance firms based on the plans they sell to individuals and companies, known as the fully insured market. Meanwhile, the provision exempts health-insurance plans that are set up and operated by businesses themselves (the self-insured market).

Revenue from the tax will help pay for the health-care overhaul, which is expected to extend coverage to millions of uninsured or underinsured Americans.

However, because most large corporations self-insure their workforce, experts warn that insurance companies will pass the costs directly to small businesses. The vast majority purchase coverage in the fully insured market.

“Insurers have confirmed back to me that the tax will be passed down to consumers, and the direct impact will be staggering,” Ryan Thorn, owner of a small insurance planning firm near Salt Lake City, told lawmakers during a congressional hearing Thursday. “It disproportionately hits individuals and small-business owners, the people who have been hurt most by these challenging times.”
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-05-12/business/39210827_1_health-insurance-plans-insurance-providers-insurance-companies

I don't know if any have spoken to small business owners or heard scuttlebutt around your workplaces but this what I've heard:

- Employee insurance costs up 30+%.

- No new hiring.

- No bonuses or cutbacks on salaries & bonuses

- Possible firings or otherwise "transitioning" full time employees to part time or on a "call in" basis.

Also, I have no idea what some people who have been forgoing health insurance for other priorities like tuition or childcare or automobile repairs etc., but when those folks get their health care tax next year it ain't gonna be pretty.
I run a small company day to day. We aren't firing anyone. We aren't cutting anyone's hours. And we are small enough we don't even have to provide insurance. But we do. In fact we even just hired another employee two weeks ago. May be in the market for another soon. Not seeing the big deal when it comes to our bottom line.
Just curious, are you 50+ employees or under?

Thanks.

 
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Starting next year, the federal government will charge a new fee on health insurance firms based on the plans they sell to individuals and companies, known as the fully insured market. Meanwhile, the provision exempts health-insurance plans that are set up and operated by businesses themselves (the self-insured market).

Revenue from the tax will help pay for the health-care overhaul, which is expected to extend coverage to millions of uninsured or underinsured Americans.

However, because most large corporations self-insure their workforce, experts warn that insurance companies will pass the costs directly to small businesses. The vast majority purchase coverage in the fully insured market.

“Insurers have confirmed back to me that the tax will be passed down to consumers, and the direct impact will be staggering,” Ryan Thorn, owner of a small insurance planning firm near Salt Lake City, told lawmakers during a congressional hearing Thursday. “It disproportionately hits individuals and small-business owners, the people who have been hurt most by these challenging times.”
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-05-12/business/39210827_1_health-insurance-plans-insurance-providers-insurance-companies

I don't know if any have spoken to small business owners or heard scuttlebutt around your workplaces but this what I've heard:

- Employee insurance costs up 30+%.

- No new hiring.

- No bonuses or cutbacks on salaries & bonuses

- Possible firings or otherwise "transitioning" full time employees to part time or on a "call in" basis.

Also, I have no idea what some people who have been forgoing health insurance for other priorities like tuition or childcare or automobile repairs etc., but when those folks get their health care tax next year it ain't gonna be pretty.
I run a small company day to day. We aren't firing anyone. We aren't cutting anyone's hours. And we are small enough we don't even have to provide insurance. But we do. In fact we even just hired another employee two weeks ago. May be in the market for another soon. Not seeing the big deal when it comes to our bottom line.
Just curious, are you 50+ employees or under?

Thanks.
Yep that's why I said we were small enough not to offer if we didn't want to.

 
I see the House tried for the 37th time this week to repeal ACA
Cost of attempts to repeal ACA is now over 50 million dollars. But hey they had the new guys who were whining they hadn't had the chance to waste taxpayer money yet and darn it that just wasn't fair.

 
We are looking at an annual 2.3% tax on 25.7 billion (2011) gross trade sales (of course it's not operating income), resulting in a taxable amount of about 592 MM based on 2011 sales. Also looking at a 92.4 MM market share tax for simply operating in the pharmaceutical space. So about 5.5% additional tax.
:eek: :eek: :eek: That is insane. I can't see how that's good for America. No doubt that will raise premiums and provide disincentives to medical entrepreneurs. Makes me sick.
Remember that 30 million people will now have health care that didn't before. That theoretically means an increased demand for goods and services, and the possibility of increased revenues. My guess is that while not a complete wash, there will be some money coming back into the positive as well...
One way to look at it is that 16.3% of Americans do not currently have health insurance. Once they are insured that amounts to a 16.3% increase in revenue. Margins are quite high in that industry (J&J had a 33% operating margin in 2010 and 20% in 2011) so it's easy to imagine that profits from the additional insured will be greater than the tax. A 16.3% increase in sales of $25.7B is $4.19B, using the lower 2011 margin (20%) would give them $838M in additional profit.
From a pure business perspective, it's really going to come down to discretionary vs. non-discretionary expenses for the end user (patient, hospital) as deemed by the health insurance plan or hospital picking up the tab under ACA, and the price paid by the health insurance plan/hospital vs. COGS/operating costs.

Private spending on medical devices as a whole is slowing in the market where hospitals are actually able to cut/save. We've already announced that we're looking at "strategic alternatives" for some of our MD&D franchises, mainly diagnostic machines, where it would be a more discretionary expense of a hospital and not a necessity. Basically, the excise tax is more of a catalyst to dump any of the lower margin companies within the medical devices portfolio.

I think ACA will be a negative for a medical device company where a product in the market is at all discretionary and that product makes up a more significant portion of trade sales, but a potential boon for a pharmaceutical company, where for the "fee" you'll gain access to patients who might otherwise not be able to afford your product if it is doctor prescribed and paid for by the insurance provider. Since JNJ has all of this under the same roof (pharmaceuticals, medical devices, and consumer goods), it's extra tax for the corporation, but is a lot less impacting/potentially beneficial than it would be for a competitor medical device manufacturer where a discretionary device makes up a much larger portion of trade sales.

 
Will Obamacare Hurt Jobs? It's Already Happening, Poll Finds

Small business owners' fear of the effect of the new health-care reform law on their bottom line is prompting many to hold off on hiring and even to shed jobs in some cases, a recent poll found.


"We were startled because we know that employers were concerned about the Affordable Care Act and the effects it would have on their business, but we didn't realize the extent they were concerned, or that the businesses were being proactive to make sure the effects of the ACA actually were minimized," said attorney Steven Friedman of Littler Mendelson. His firm, which specializes in employment law, commissioned the Gallup poll.
"If the small businesses' fears are reasonable, then it could mean that the small business sector grows slower than what economic conditions otherwise would indicate. And small businesses have been a growth engine in the economy," Friedman told CNBC.
Forty-one percent of the businesses surveyed have frozen hiring because of the health-care law known as Obamacare. And almost one-fifth—19 percent— answered "yes" when asked if they had "reduced the number of employees you have in your business as a specific result of the Affordable Care Act."

The poll was taken by 603 owners whose businesses have under $20 million in annual sales.

Another 38 percent of the small business owners said they "have pulled back on their plans to grow their business" because of Obamacare.

Those are "some pretty startling answers," Friedman said.

"To think that [nearly] 20 percent of small businesses have already reduced the numbers they have in their business because they're concerned about the medical coverage is significant, and a bit troubling," Friedman said.


Under ACA, nearly all companies with 50 or more full-time employees will have to either offer health coverage or face a fine of $2,000 per full-timer after the first 30 workers.
Friedman said that Littler Mendelson, which recently created a health-care reform consulting group, had heard small business clients talk about their fear that the rules and other effects of the ACA will lead to higher costs. The poll supported that anecdotal data with the finding that 48 percent of owners think the law will be bad for their bottom line.

Just 9 percent of the small employers surveyed agreed that Obamacare would be "good for your business," while another 39 percent saw "no impact."

The prevalent pessimism tracks other answers in the poll, which showed that 55 percent of small business owners believe that the ACA will lead to higher health-care costs. By contrast, about 5 percent said the law would lead to lower costs.

And more than half—52 percent—said they expected a reduction in the quality of health care under Obamacare, while just 13 percent expected an improvement.

"I can't say that the fears appear overstated, because the potential for big problems seems rather large," Friedman said about law's implementation.

"We don't know until 2014 and beyond what the impact of the ACA will be on businesses," he said. "There is tremendous fear that the premiums will be much higher, for small businesses especially. At this point we can't look a client straight in the eye and say, 'Don't worry about it. Everything will be fine.' "

In addition to restricting hiring or cutting jobs, small companies are considering other ways to mitigate the expected financial fallout. Twenty-four percent are weighing whether to drop insurance coverage, while 18 percent have "reduced the hours of employees to part-time" in anticipation of the ACA's effects, the poll found.

Gallup Chief Economic Dennis Jacobe said small business owners' answers in the poll "is consistent with owners' tendency to be more Republican than Democratic, higher-income, more against big government, more conservative and less optimistic than Americans overall."

One group that favors Obamacare for small businesses said the findings reflect misconceptions about its true effects as well as the need for continued outreach by reform advocates to the small business community.

"We need to do more educating about the law," said Rhett Buttle, vice president for external affairs for the Small Business Majority, an advocacy group that has run informational meetings for owners about Obamacare.

"We think small business owners stand to benefit under the ACA," Buttle said. "We think small business owners, as they learn more [about the ACA] ... will save money in the long run."

—By CNBC's Dan Mangan. Follow him on Twitter @danpostman.
 
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After helping get the bill passed, Unions now are :oldunsure: about it and want changes made.

raise your hand if you saw this coming:

The union leaders are concerned that Obamacare’s employer mandate incentives smaller companies to shift their workers to part-time status, because employers are not required to provide health coverage to part-time workers.
:hey:

But this part is the REAL reason Unions are not happy with ObamaCare:

But the key problem is that the Taft-Hartley plans already provide generous and costly coverage; small employers now have a more financially attractive alternative, which is to drop coverage and put people on the exchanges, once the existing collective bargaining agreements are up. That gives workers less reason to join a union; a big part of why working people pay union dues is because unions play a big role in negotiating health benefits.
:clyde:

 
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Under ACA, nearly all companies with 50 or more full-time employees will have to either offer health coverage or face a fine of $2,000 per full-timer after the first 30 workers.
$2k per person doesn't seem like a deal breaker if you need more employees.

 
After helping get the bill passed, Unions now are :oldunsure: about it and want changes made.

raise your hand if you saw this coming:

The union leaders are concerned that Obamacare’s employer mandate incentives smaller companies to shift their workers to part-time status, because employers are not required to provide health coverage to part-time workers.
:hey:

But this part is the REAL reason Unions are not happy with ObamaCare:

But the key problem is that the Taft-Hartley plans already provide generous and costly coverage; small employers now have a more financially attractive alternative, which is to drop coverage and put people on the exchanges, once the existing collective bargaining agreements are up. That gives workers less reason to join a union; a big part of why working people pay union dues is because unions play a big role in negotiating health benefits.
:clyde:
Glad to see you on board with the ACA snogger.

 
After helping get the bill passed, Unions now are :oldunsure: about it and want changes made.

raise your hand if you saw this coming:

The union leaders are concerned that Obamacare’s employer mandate incentives smaller companies to shift their workers to part-time status, because employers are not required to provide health coverage to part-time workers.
:hey:

But this part is the REAL reason Unions are not happy with ObamaCare:

But the key problem is that the Taft-Hartley plans already provide generous and costly coverage; small employers now have a more financially attractive alternative, which is to drop coverage and put people on the exchanges, once the existing collective bargaining agreements are up. That gives workers less reason to join a union; a big part of why working people pay union dues is because unions play a big role in negotiating health benefits.
:clyde:
Glad to see you on board with the ACA snogger.
:lol:

I'm on board with the fact the Unions bought what Obama sold them and are now :cry: about it.. :thumbup:

 
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One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.

 
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One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
As opposed as I've been to Obamacare, you're being a little misleading here, I think. The hiring of more part time people, I'm betting, will not last, because the marketplace will demand a greater efficiency level in most positions. What's going on right now is that most people don't understand Obamacare's rules. So they react in different ways, and it creates all kinds of short term economic disruption. The constant Republican attempts to defund it aren't helping matters.

Things will even out once again after the program is better understood by employers. The REAL problems with Obamacare (which I predict will be a gradual rise in the overall cost of health care coupled with a gradual decline in quality) are long term wont be felt for many years.

 
One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
This posts seems to ignore that this was the trend prior to the ACA even being voted on. For example this has been the Wal-Mart way since 2003 or so.

 
One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
This posts seems to ignore that this was the trend prior to the ACA even being voted on. For example this has been the Wal-Mart way since 2003 or so.
That's a good point as well.
 
One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
As opposed as I've been to Obamacare, you're being a little misleading here, I think. The hiring of more part time people, I'm betting, will not last, because the marketplace will demand a greater efficiency level in most positions.What's going on right now is that most people don't understand Obamacare's rules. So they react in different ways, and it creates all kinds of short term economic disruption. The constant Republican attempts to defund it aren't helping matters.

Things will even out once again after the program is better understood by employers. The REAL problems with Obamacare (which I predict will be a gradual rise in the overall cost of health care coupled with a gradual decline in quality) are long term wont be felt for many years.
:goodposting:

Ohio officials: Rates to increase under health law
 
One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
As opposed as I've been to Obamacare, you're being a little misleading here, I think. The hiring of more part time people, I'm betting, will not last, because the marketplace will demand a greater efficiency level in most positions.What's going on right now is that most people don't understand Obamacare's rules. So they react in different ways, and it creates all kinds of short term economic disruption. The constant Republican attempts to defund it aren't helping matters.

Things will even out once again after the program is better understood by employers. The REAL problems with Obamacare (which I predict will be a gradual rise in the overall cost of health care coupled with a gradual decline in quality) are long term wont be felt for many years.
When you (and others) refer to a "gradual decline in quality", are you including the 30M+ Americans who now have access to better health care b/c they're insured?

 
One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
As opposed as I've been to Obamacare, you're being a little misleading here, I think. The hiring of more part time people, I'm betting, will not last, because the marketplace will demand a greater efficiency level in most positions.What's going on right now is that most people don't understand Obamacare's rules. So they react in different ways, and it creates all kinds of short term economic disruption. The constant Republican attempts to defund it aren't helping matters.

Things will even out once again after the program is better understood by employers. The REAL problems with Obamacare (which I predict will be a gradual rise in the overall cost of health care coupled with a gradual decline in quality) are long term wont be felt for many years.
When you (and others) refer to a "gradual decline in quality", are you including the 30M+ Americans who now have access to better health care b/c they're insured?
I would prefer not to see anyone without healthcare. If you or Obama had simply said, let's provide a safety net so that those without the means to afford health care can access it (a sort of "food stamps" for health care program) I would have been for that. I don't see the need to change everybody else's health care in order to accomplish this.
 
One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
As opposed as I've been to Obamacare, you're being a little misleading here, I think. The hiring of more part time people, I'm betting, will not last, because the marketplace will demand a greater efficiency level in most positions.What's going on right now is that most people don't understand Obamacare's rules. So they react in different ways, and it creates all kinds of short term economic disruption. The constant Republican attempts to defund it aren't helping matters.

Things will even out once again after the program is better understood by employers. The REAL problems with Obamacare (which I predict will be a gradual rise in the overall cost of health care coupled with a gradual decline in quality) are long term wont be felt for many years.
When you (and others) refer to a "gradual decline in quality", are you including the 30M+ Americans who now have access to better health care b/c they're insured?
I would prefer not to see anyone without healthcare. If you or Obama had simply said, let's provide a safety net so that those without the means to afford health care can access it (a sort of "food stamps" for health care program) I would have been for that. I don't see the need to change everybody else's health care in order to accomplish this.
So you want all the benefits of the ACA, without paying for it?

 
One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
As opposed as I've been to Obamacare, you're being a little misleading here, I think. The hiring of more part time people, I'm betting, will not last, because the marketplace will demand a greater efficiency level in most positions.What's going on right now is that most people don't understand Obamacare's rules. So they react in different ways, and it creates all kinds of short term economic disruption. The constant Republican attempts to defund it aren't helping matters.

Things will even out once again after the program is better understood by employers. The REAL problems with Obamacare (which I predict will be a gradual rise in the overall cost of health care coupled with a gradual decline in quality) are long term wont be felt for many years.
When you (and others) refer to a "gradual decline in quality", are you including the 30M+ Americans who now have access to better health care b/c they're insured?
Stories like this one are, IMO, going to grow as it takes affect...

All told, health experts say the number of doctors going "off-grid" isn't enough to undermine the Affordable Care Act, but they say some Americans may have difficulty finding doctors who will take their new benefits or face long waits for appointments with those who do.

.....

Other doctors are dropping out of Medicare to avoid deeper government involvement in medicine, much of which is occurring in Medicare. For example, Medicare is now paying incentives to doctors who switch to electronic medical records and who send data on quality measures to the federal government. Doctors who are part of the Medicare program who don't do so will face penalties starting in 2015.

While the leaders of some large doctor groups have endorsed such initiatives, Dr. Ginsburg says, "there are a lot of physicians, particularly older physicians, who say, 'I don't want to do this. Let me run out the rest of my career practicing like I've always done.' "

Some doctors are particularly concerned about patient privacy. Earlier this year, gynecologist Mary Jane Minkin, a professor at the Yale School of Medicine, opted out of Medicare and the Yale Medical Group when she saw that the electronic records system displayed patients' gynecological records to other providers they consulted. "There's no reason the dermatologist has to know about my patients' libido issues," Dr. Minkin said.
More doctors steering clear of Medicare

 
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One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
As opposed as I've been to Obamacare, you're being a little misleading here, I think. The hiring of more part time people, I'm betting, will not last, because the marketplace will demand a greater efficiency level in most positions.What's going on right now is that most people don't understand Obamacare's rules. So they react in different ways, and it creates all kinds of short term economic disruption. The constant Republican attempts to defund it aren't helping matters.

Things will even out once again after the program is better understood by employers. The REAL problems with Obamacare (which I predict will be a gradual rise in the overall cost of health care coupled with a gradual decline in quality) are long term wont be felt for many years.
When you (and others) refer to a "gradual decline in quality", are you including the 30M+ Americans who now have access to better health care b/c they're insured?
I would prefer not to see anyone without healthcare. If you or Obama had simply said, let's provide a safety net so that those without the means to afford health care can access it (a sort of "food stamps" for health care program) I would have been for that. I don't see the need to change everybody else's health care in order to accomplish this.
Have yet to see a change to my health care. :shrug:

 
One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
As opposed as I've been to Obamacare, you're being a little misleading here, I think. The hiring of more part time people, I'm betting, will not last, because the marketplace will demand a greater efficiency level in most positions.What's going on right now is that most people don't understand Obamacare's rules. So they react in different ways, and it creates all kinds of short term economic disruption. The constant Republican attempts to defund it aren't helping matters.

Things will even out once again after the program is better understood by employers. The REAL problems with Obamacare (which I predict will be a gradual rise in the overall cost of health care coupled with a gradual decline in quality) are long term wont be felt for many years.
When you (and others) refer to a "gradual decline in quality", are you including the 30M+ Americans who now have access to better health care b/c they're insured?
I would prefer not to see anyone without healthcare. If you or Obama had simply said, let's provide a safety net so that those without the means to afford health care can access it (a sort of "food stamps" for health care program) I would have been for that. I don't see the need to change everybody else's health care in order to accomplish this.
So you want all the benefits of the ACA, without paying for it?
No, I want what I just wrote. I am willing to pay for a safety net for those who can't afford health care. I don't see the reason I need to have my own health care affected.

Not sure what the point is in discussing this though. Obamacare is here to stay, (at least, until we move to single payer, which I believe will eventually happen.)

 
One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
As opposed as I've been to Obamacare, you're being a little misleading here, I think. The hiring of more part time people, I'm betting, will not last, because the marketplace will demand a greater efficiency level in most positions.What's going on right now is that most people don't understand Obamacare's rules. So they react in different ways, and it creates all kinds of short term economic disruption. The constant Republican attempts to defund it aren't helping matters.

Things will even out once again after the program is better understood by employers. The REAL problems with Obamacare (which I predict will be a gradual rise in the overall cost of health care coupled with a gradual decline in quality) are long term wont be felt for many years.
When you (and others) refer to a "gradual decline in quality", are you including the 30M+ Americans who now have access to better health care b/c they're insured?
I would prefer not to see anyone without healthcare. If you or Obama had simply said, let's provide a safety net so that those without the means to afford health care can access it (a sort of "food stamps" for health care program) I would have been for that. I don't see the need to change everybody else's health care in order to accomplish this.
Have yet to see a change to my health care. :shrug:
Yes- as I wrote, most of the changes will be gradual over time.

 
One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
As opposed as I've been to Obamacare, you're being a little misleading here, I think. The hiring of more part time people, I'm betting, will not last, because the marketplace will demand a greater efficiency level in most positions.What's going on right now is that most people don't understand Obamacare's rules. So they react in different ways, and it creates all kinds of short term economic disruption. The constant Republican attempts to defund it aren't helping matters.

Things will even out once again after the program is better understood by employers. The REAL problems with Obamacare (which I predict will be a gradual rise in the overall cost of health care coupled with a gradual decline in quality) are long term wont be felt for many years.
When you (and others) refer to a "gradual decline in quality", are you including the 30M+ Americans who now have access to better health care b/c they're insured?
I would prefer not to see anyone without healthcare. If you or Obama had simply said, let's provide a safety net so that those without the means to afford health care can access it (a sort of "food stamps" for health care program) I would have been for that. I don't see the need to change everybody else's health care in order to accomplish this.
No one goes without health care now in the U.S.

So you should be good given your first statement.

 
One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
As opposed as I've been to Obamacare, you're being a little misleading here, I think. The hiring of more part time people, I'm betting, will not last, because the marketplace will demand a greater efficiency level in most positions.What's going on right now is that most people don't understand Obamacare's rules. So they react in different ways, and it creates all kinds of short term economic disruption. The constant Republican attempts to defund it aren't helping matters.

Things will even out once again after the program is better understood by employers. The REAL problems with Obamacare (which I predict will be a gradual rise in the overall cost of health care coupled with a gradual decline in quality) are long term wont be felt for many years.
When you (and others) refer to a "gradual decline in quality", are you including the 30M+ Americans who now have access to better health care b/c they're insured?
I would prefer not to see anyone without healthcare. If you or Obama had simply said, let's provide a safety net so that those without the means to afford health care can access it (a sort of "food stamps" for health care program) I would have been for that. I don't see the need to change everybody else's health care in order to accomplish this.
No one goes without health care now in the U.S.

So you should be good given your first statement.
Yeah, but you're referring to emergency room care, right? In the long term that's too expensive. There should be a better way to handle that for those who truly can't afford it. I just didn't regard Obamacare as the best solution.

 
One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
This posts seems to ignore that this was the trend prior to the ACA even being voted on. For example this has been the Wal-Mart way since 2003 or so.
Got a link to stats prior and after? I doubt it was anywhere near 77%. And I sure hope we aren't all thinking that creating more WalMart jobs is the answer to our jobs crisis. Sheesh.

Realistically, skilled and professional jobs are going to be full time. But low wage unskilled jobs are going to be part time because anyone can do those jobs and those employers can't afford or don't want to offer health insurance.

 
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One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
As opposed as I've been to Obamacare, you're being a little misleading here, I think. The hiring of more part time people, I'm betting, will not last, because the marketplace will demand a greater efficiency level in most positions.What's going on right now is that most people don't understand Obamacare's rules. So they react in different ways, and it creates all kinds of short term economic disruption. The constant Republican attempts to defund it aren't helping matters.

Things will even out once again after the program is better understood by employers. The REAL problems with Obamacare (which I predict will be a gradual rise in the overall cost of health care coupled with a gradual decline in quality) are long term wont be felt for many years.
When you (and others) refer to a "gradual decline in quality", are you including the 30M+ Americans who now have access to better health care b/c they're insured?
I would prefer not to see anyone without healthcare. If you or Obama had simply said, let's provide a safety net so that those without the means to afford health care can access it (a sort of "food stamps" for health care program) I would have been for that. I don't see the need to change everybody else's health care in order to accomplish this.
No one goes without health care now in the U.S.

So you should be good given your first statement.
Yeah, but you're referring to emergency room care, right? In the long term that's too expensive. There should be a better way to handle that for those who truly can't afford it. I just didn't regard Obamacare as the best solution.
Not just the emergency room. Any hospital.

For example: All of the women giving birth in hospitals without insurance - this isn't taking place in the emergency rooms only.

 
One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
As opposed as I've been to Obamacare, you're being a little misleading here, I think. The hiring of more part time people, I'm betting, will not last, because the marketplace will demand a greater efficiency level in most positions.What's going on right now is that most people don't understand Obamacare's rules. So they react in different ways, and it creates all kinds of short term economic disruption. The constant Republican attempts to defund it aren't helping matters.

Things will even out once again after the program is better understood by employers. The REAL problems with Obamacare (which I predict will be a gradual rise in the overall cost of health care coupled with a gradual decline in quality) are long term wont be felt for many years.
When you (and others) refer to a "gradual decline in quality", are you including the 30M+ Americans who now have access to better health care b/c they're insured?
I would prefer not to see anyone without healthcare. If you or Obama had simply said, let's provide a safety net so that those without the means to afford health care can access it (a sort of "food stamps" for health care program) I would have been for that. I don't see the need to change everybody else's health care in order to accomplish this.
No one goes without health care now in the U.S.

So you should be good given your first statement.
Yeah, but you're referring to emergency room care, right? In the long term that's too expensive. There should be a better way to handle that for those who truly can't afford it. I just didn't regard Obamacare as the best solution.
Recent studies suggest that ~ 40k people die each year due to inadequate access to healthcare. These are deaths that are easily preventable, and frankly it's embarrassing that we as a country let it happen.

Of course since it hasn't happened to Joe Tea Party, it's not a problem.

 
One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
As opposed as I've been to Obamacare, you're being a little misleading here, I think. The hiring of more part time people, I'm betting, will not last, because the marketplace will demand a greater efficiency level in most positions.What's going on right now is that most people don't understand Obamacare's rules. So they react in different ways, and it creates all kinds of short term economic disruption. The constant Republican attempts to defund it aren't helping matters.

Things will even out once again after the program is better understood by employers. The REAL problems with Obamacare (which I predict will be a gradual rise in the overall cost of health care coupled with a gradual decline in quality) are long term wont be felt for many years.
When you (and others) refer to a "gradual decline in quality", are you including the 30M+ Americans who now have access to better health care b/c they're insured?
I would prefer not to see anyone without healthcare. If you or Obama had simply said, let's provide a safety net so that those without the means to afford health care can access it (a sort of "food stamps" for health care program) I would have been for that. I don't see the need to change everybody else's health care in order to accomplish this.
No one goes without health care now in the U.S.

So you should be good given your first statement.
Yeah, but you're referring to emergency room care, right? In the long term that's too expensive. There should be a better way to handle that for those who truly can't afford it. I just didn't regard Obamacare as the best solution.
Recent studies suggest that ~ 40k people die each year due to inadequate access to healthcare. These are deaths that are easily preventable, and frankly it's embarrassing that we as a country let it happen.

Of course since it hasn't happened to Joe Tea Party, it's not a problem.
I agree with you 100%.

 
The statement that there are people out there without healthcare is misleading and inaccurate. Visit any hospital in the country and they are treating people without insurance. Everyone has access to healthcare in this country. It is a common misconception though and often misstated.

The more correct statement is there are tons of people without health insurance in this country.

Health Insurance <> Healthcare

 
One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
As opposed as I've been to Obamacare, you're being a little misleading here, I think. The hiring of more part time people, I'm betting, will not last, because the marketplace will demand a greater efficiency level in most positions.What's going on right now is that most people don't understand Obamacare's rules. So they react in different ways, and it creates all kinds of short term economic disruption. The constant Republican attempts to defund it aren't helping matters.

Things will even out once again after the program is better understood by employers. The REAL problems with Obamacare (which I predict will be a gradual rise in the overall cost of health care coupled with a gradual decline in quality) are long term wont be felt for many years.
When you (and others) refer to a "gradual decline in quality", are you including the 30M+ Americans who now have access to better health care b/c they're insured?
I would prefer not to see anyone without healthcare. If you or Obama had simply said, let's provide a safety net so that those without the means to afford health care can access it (a sort of "food stamps" for health care program) I would have been for that. I don't see the need to change everybody else's health care in order to accomplish this.
No one goes without health care now in the U.S.

So you should be good given your first statement.
Yeah, but you're referring to emergency room care, right? In the long term that's too expensive. There should be a better way to handle that for those who truly can't afford it. I just didn't regard Obamacare as the best solution.
Not just the emergency room. Any hospital.

For example: All of the women giving birth in hospitals without insurance - this isn't taking place in the emergency rooms only.
OK, but that doesn't change my point. It's still not very efficient, and it's still too expensive a "safety net" in the long run. There's got to be a better way to handle it.

 
One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
As opposed as I've been to Obamacare, you're being a little misleading here, I think. The hiring of more part time people, I'm betting, will not last, because the marketplace will demand a greater efficiency level in most positions.What's going on right now is that most people don't understand Obamacare's rules. So they react in different ways, and it creates all kinds of short term economic disruption. The constant Republican attempts to defund it aren't helping matters.

Things will even out once again after the program is better understood by employers. The REAL problems with Obamacare (which I predict will be a gradual rise in the overall cost of health care coupled with a gradual decline in quality) are long term wont be felt for many years.
When you (and others) refer to a "gradual decline in quality", are you including the 30M+ Americans who now have access to better health care b/c they're insured?
I would prefer not to see anyone without healthcare. If you or Obama had simply said, let's provide a safety net so that those without the means to afford health care can access it (a sort of "food stamps" for health care program) I would have been for that. I don't see the need to change everybody else's health care in order to accomplish this.
Have yet to see a change to my health care. :shrug:
Yes- as I wrote, most of the changes will be gradual over time.
Well I'm suspecting it won't be worse than the "changes" I've seen for many years which is yearly increased premiums.

 
The statement that there are people out there without healthcare is misleading and inaccurate. Visit any hospital in the country and they are treating people without insurance.
And the rest of us eat that cost.

 
The statement that there are people out there without healthcare is misleading and inaccurate. Visit any hospital in the country and they are treating people without insurance. Everyone has access to healthcare in this country. It is a common misconception though and often misstated.

The more correct statement is there are tons of people without health insurance in this country.

Health Insurance <> Healthcare
This ignores reality. Those without health insurance forgo health care all the time due to cost. People are suffering needlessly.

 
The statement that there are people out there without healthcare is misleading and inaccurate. Visit any hospital in the country and they are treating people without insurance. Everyone has access to healthcare in this country. It is a common misconception though and often misstated.

The more correct statement is there are tons of people without health insurance in this country.

Health Insurance <> Healthcare
But it's stupid.

Here's an example- it costs maybe $10 to inoculate somebody against tuberculosis. But when a person already HAS tuberculosis, it costs around $3,000 to treat them. Worse, once they have it they are a public health menace. So, logic suggests as a society we should be inoculating everyone, right? But we don't, because these people don't have health insurance, and they don't go to the hospital until they're sick. (Also, many people who have the biggest chance to get TB and other diseases which are threats to public health are undocumented and afraid to go to doctors. But of course, all attempts to bring them into the light are defeated in Congress.)

 
One of the "unintended" consequences that many of the saner folks predicted now seems to be coming to pass. As the jobs numbers keep coming in for the year they really show (besides being absolutely horrid report after report) how this act is affecting our working class. America is now becoming a part time working society. Of the 953,000 jobs created in 2013, 731,000 were part time. That's 77% of all new jobs created this year. Part time job created has really seemed to accelerate the further into 2013 we go.

What a disaster. I shudder to think of the economic damage that has been done by the ACA. That number must be staggering.
As opposed as I've been to Obamacare, you're being a little misleading here, I think. The hiring of more part time people, I'm betting, will not last, because the marketplace will demand a greater efficiency level in most positions.What's going on right now is that most people don't understand Obamacare's rules. So they react in different ways, and it creates all kinds of short term economic disruption. The constant Republican attempts to defund it aren't helping matters.

Things will even out once again after the program is better understood by employers. The REAL problems with Obamacare (which I predict will be a gradual rise in the overall cost of health care coupled with a gradual decline in quality) are long term wont be felt for many years.
When you (and others) refer to a "gradual decline in quality", are you including the 30M+ Americans who now have access to better health care b/c they're insured?
I would prefer not to see anyone without healthcare. If you or Obama had simply said, let's provide a safety net so that those without the means to afford health care can access it (a sort of "food stamps" for health care program) I would have been for that. I don't see the need to change everybody else's health care in order to accomplish this.
No one goes without health care now in the U.S.

So you should be good given your first statement.
Yeah, but you're referring to emergency room care, right? In the long term that's too expensive. There should be a better way to handle that for those who truly can't afford it. I just didn't regard Obamacare as the best solution.
Not just the emergency room. Any hospital.

For example: All of the women giving birth in hospitals without insurance - this isn't taking place in the emergency rooms only.
OK, but that doesn't change my point. It's still not very efficient, and it's still too expensive a "safety net" in the long run. There's got to be a better way to handle it.
OK cool. At least we can agree all people in the US have access to healthcare today. Your argument is there is a more efficient way to deliver care and there can really be no argument against that either.

 
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The statement that there are people out there without healthcare is misleading and inaccurate. Visit any hospital in the country and they are treating people without insurance. Everyone has access to healthcare in this country. It is a common misconception though and often misstated.

The more correct statement is there are tons of people without health insurance in this country.

Health Insurance <> Healthcare
No, the more correct statement is that there are people without ADEQUATE healthcare. Access to preventative care, prenatal care, etc. is not nearly the same for those without insurance. That is ridiculous.

 
The statement that there are people out there without healthcare is misleading and inaccurate. Visit any hospital in the country and they are treating people without insurance. Everyone has access to healthcare in this country. It is a common misconception though and often misstated.

The more correct statement is there are tons of people without health insurance in this country.

Health Insurance <> Healthcare
But it's stupid.

Here's an example- it costs maybe $10 to inoculate somebody against tuberculosis. But when a person already HAS tuberculosis, it costs around $3,000 to treat them. Worse, once they have it they are a public health menace. So, logic suggests as a society we should be inoculating everyone, right? But we don't, because these people don't have health insurance, and they don't go to the hospital until they're sick. (Also, many people who have the biggest chance to get TB and other diseases which are threats to public health are undocumented and afraid to go to doctors. But of course, all attempts to bring them into the light are defeated in Congress.)
This is also inaccurate and proves you don't know what you are talking about. I suggest you spend some time in actual hospitals and healthcare facilities before continuing on with what you heard on the radio and MSNBC.

Just this week in Dallas, there was a huge fair with free vaccines and inoculations for ANYONE. The care is already out there. You and others are just ignoring it.

 
Actually, I just looked it up. Dallas County Health and Human Services never denies vaccines to anyone under the age of 18. But you probably didn't know that.

 
The statement that there are people out there without healthcare is misleading and inaccurate. Visit any hospital in the country and they are treating people without insurance. Everyone has access to healthcare in this country. It is a common misconception though and often misstated.

The more correct statement is there are tons of people without health insurance in this country.

Health Insurance <> Healthcare
But it's stupid.

Here's an example- it costs maybe $10 to inoculate somebody against tuberculosis. But when a person already HAS tuberculosis, it costs around $3,000 to treat them. Worse, once they have it they are a public health menace. So, logic suggests as a society we should be inoculating everyone, right? But we don't, because these people don't have health insurance, and they don't go to the hospital until they're sick. (Also, many people who have the biggest chance to get TB and other diseases which are threats to public health are undocumented and afraid to go to doctors. But of course, all attempts to bring them into the light are defeated in Congress.)
This is also inaccurate and proves you don't know what you are talking about. I suggest you spend some time in actual hospitals and healthcare facilities before continuing on with what you heard on the radio and MSNBC.

Just this week in Dallas, there was a huge fair with free vaccines and inoculations for ANYONE. The care is already out there. You and others are just ignoring it.
It's funny you write that I should spend some more time in hospitals, because the information I gave you was direct from an emergency room nurse, one of my neighbors, who has often expressed to me her frustration about people who come into the ER with full blown diseases like TB which could have been easily treated, and would have been, if these people received medical care on a regular basis.

I'm glad those fairs as you described exist. It is very important to public health that they do. But it is not sufficient, and it is not the equivalent of everyone receiving regular medical care. (And again, illegals typically either aren't aware or won't go to them, for fear of deportation.)

 
Actually, I just looked it up. Dallas County Health and Human Services never denies vaccines to anyone under the age of 18. But you probably didn't know that.
That's not relevant to my point. (Although why they would deny access to anyone over 18 is something I don't understand.)

The main reason my own children were vaccinated is because WE GO TO THE PEDIATRICIAN ON A REGULAR BASIS AND THEY TOLD US IT HAD TO BE DONE. If I didn't go to the pediatrician, or if I was afraid to go due to my legal status, then I wouldn't know about it, would I? :wall:

 
This is also inaccurate and proves you don't know what you are talking about. I suggest you spend some time in actual hospitals and healthcare facilities before continuing on with what you heard on the radio and MSNBC.

Just this week in Dallas, there was a huge fair with free vaccines and inoculations for ANYONE. The care is already out there. You and others are just ignoring it.
LOFL at the idea that those "fairs" are evidence that every has access to adequate health care. They have one of them near my hometown in Virginia every year as well.

Health care for the commoners, Joe T style:

WISE — Donna Sampson winced in pain Sunday morning as a hypodermic needle slid into the side of her foot. It was attached to a glass syringe filled with lidocaine usually used for dentistry, but some instruments serve double duty at this field hospital in the middle of a mountain fairground.

Soon, a third-year medical student and a Roanoke doctor volunteering his time and expertise were slicing a wart off Sampson’s left foot . They cauterized the wound and wrapped the area with gauze.

Sampson was one of an estimated 3,000 uninsured or under insured patients who lined up for hours — even days — to receive free medical, dental and eye care at the 14th annual Remote Area Medical clinic at the Wise County Fairgrounds in far Southwest Virginia.

The three-day event draws thousands every year from the coalfields of Appalachia for charity health care and is staffed by a small army of nearly 2,000 volunteers.

Sampson, 47, from Hiltons , arrived Saturday with her boyfriend, his son and a friend and slept overnight in a compact Kia Sephia so they could be seen Sunday. They waited in line more than eight hours Saturday just to wake up and be back at 5 a.m. Sunday .

Sampson said she came to the free clinic to have her teeth cleaned, but medical volunteers suggested she be checked out as well.

She and others were seen in makeshift doctor’s offices in what would usually be fairground facilities. Buildings without air conditioning were converted into medical suites using bed sheets and clothes pins hanging on twine.

Doctors, medical students and other volunteers worked outside their comfort zone to treat the thousands who had shown up to receive care.

Ben Davis, who works at Carilion Roanoke Memorial Hospital, showed Tripp Hines, 26, a medical student from East Tennessee State University’s James Quillen College of Medicine, how to slice off Sampson’s wart. The two then removed an infected nail from Sampson’s right foot.

About 500 to 600 of the 1,700 volunteers at the RAM clinic this year are medical, dental or eye care professionals, according to organizers, and many of them are students. The event is an important training tool for them.

Stephen Fintel, a third-year student at Virginia Commonwealth University’s School of Dentistry, performed his first tooth extraction over the weekend at the clinic.

Fintel, 27, a 2004 graduate of Patrick Henry High School in Roanoke, said it was his first time volunteering at an event of this magnitude.

“It’s a little bit overwhelming at first, but once you get rolling, it’s no big deal,” he said.

As strong rain moved through the fairground and volunteers rushed to pull the siding down on the dental tent, Corey Taylor, a Roanoke native and second-year student at VCU’s dental school, helped pull a decayed incisor from Laura Logsdon. The sound of heavy raindrops on canvas mixed with the whirs of dental drills and suction devices.

Logsdon, a 50-year-old mother from Lee County, said she works as a cook at a nursing home but doesn’t receive health insurance.

That’s a common refrain at the annual event, held in an area where nearly 20 percent of people lack insurance, according to 2010 census figures.

“We’re seeing people who’ve had health insurance all their lives, and then they’re forced to lose a job and they don’t have anything,” said Teresa Gardner, one of RAM’s organizers.

Other patients may have medical insurance but can’t afford dental or vision care. Or their copays or deductibles may be too expensive. Or they may have been in a recent accident. Or they may have been diagnosed with a devastating illness. The list goes on.

“You hear a lot of things that are really heartbreaking,” said Jamie Swann, a nurse with INTotal Health, who was working to triage patients and send them to the appropriate areas for care.

The clinic is one of several like it in the country, but the Wise RAM has historically seen the most patients. Gardner said last year’s event saw more than 5,000 people from Friday through Sunday, with volunteers performing an estimated $1.9 million in free care, including more than 3,300 tooth extractions, 2,600 medical procedures and 800 eyeglasses made on-site.

Carole Pratt, a dentist from Pulaski County, has volunteered at the clinic since it started in 2000. She said she considers it her summer vacation.

Pratt, 62, said she keeps coming back because of patients who line up for hours on end seeking care.

“If you ask any volunteer here, everybody will tell you there is a moment or two or three in every one of these clinics where you just have to go hide behind some place and get yourself together because of the stories they tell,” she said. “There are people who’ve lost their jobs and lost their benefits … and they’re embarrassed to be here, but they want to tell you why they have to come to a fairground to get medical care in the most wealthy nation in the world.”

She wiped away a tear.

“Everybody’s got a story.”
 
The statement that there are people out there without healthcare is misleading and inaccurate. Visit any hospital in the country and they are treating people without insurance. Everyone has access to healthcare in this country. It is a common misconception though and often misstated.

The more correct statement is there are tons of people without health insurance in this country.

Health Insurance <> Healthcare
But it's stupid.

Here's an example- it costs maybe $10 to inoculate somebody against tuberculosis. But when a person already HAS tuberculosis, it costs around $3,000 to treat them. Worse, once they have it they are a public health menace. So, logic suggests as a society we should be inoculating everyone, right? But we don't, because these people don't have health insurance, and they don't go to the hospital until they're sick. (Also, many people who have the biggest chance to get TB and other diseases which are threats to public health are undocumented and afraid to go to doctors. But of course, all attempts to bring them into the light are defeated in Congress.)
This is also inaccurate and proves you don't know what you are talking about. I suggest you spend some time in actual hospitals and healthcare facilities before continuing on with what you heard on the radio and MSNBC.

Just this week in Dallas, there was a huge fair with free vaccines and inoculations for ANYONE. The care is already out there. You and others are just ignoring it.
It's funny you write that I should spend some more time in hospitals, because the information I gave you was direct from an emergency room nurse, one of my neighbors, who has often expressed to me her frustration about people who come into the ER with full blown diseases like TB which could have been easily treated, and would have been, if these people received medical care on a regular basis.

I'm glad those fairs as you described exist. It is very important to public health that they do. But it is not sufficient, and it is not the equivalent of everyone receiving regular medical care. (And again, illegals typically either aren't aware or won't go to them, for fear of deportation.)
It's funny you've changed your argument (again). I'm frustrated too with people going to the ER with full blown diseases. But to imply they are there because they "have no access to healthcare" is misleading as I've said now many times. The access is there.

The delivery efficiency may not be up to your standards and that we can probably agree on.

I only entered this thread to correct you on saying something like "I want all people to have access to healthcare." They do. I've made my point.

 
The statement that there are people out there without healthcare is misleading and inaccurate. Visit any hospital in the country and they are treating people without insurance. Everyone has access to healthcare in this country. It is a common misconception though and often misstated.

The more correct statement is there are tons of people without health insurance in this country.

Health Insurance <> Healthcare
bump

 

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