Obama's newest goal- equal pay for women (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

Today, President Obama noted that women, on average, receive .77 cents for every dollar that men receive for doing the exact same jobs. He said that women should not be punished for taking time off when they are pregnant. He said, "We're no longer living in an episode of Mad Men; it's time to end this embarrassment.". Obama challenged Congress to pass a new Equal Pay law.

Agree or disagree?

 

[Ghost Rider]

I remember hearing that figure is not accurate - it is more like around .90 cents for every dollar a man makes.

In general, I agree that there should be equal pay, but this strikes me as him proposing something he knows the GOP will oppose, which means the Democrats can launch their fictitious "war on women" again, in the hopes that it will make a dent with voters in the mid-terms later this year.

 

[RCon]

Today, President Obama noted that women, on average, receive .77 cents for every dollar that men receive for doing the exact same jobs. He said that women should not be punished for taking time off when they are pregnant. He said, "We're no longer living in an episode of Mad Men; it's time to end this embarrassment.". Obama challenged Congress to pass a new Equal Pay law.

Agree or disagree?

I dispute his premise, that women receive 77% of the compensation as men for equal jobs, when taking into account qualifications, experience, and productivity. Put simply, I just don't believe this talking point.

 

[Bucky86]

<johnjohn>Women should stick to the baby making and kitchen work! <johnjohn>

 

[TheIronSheik]

Fair market value.

 

[Koya]

I remember hearing that figure is not accurate - it is more like around .90 cents for every dollar a man makes.

In general, I agree that there should be equal pay, but this strikes me as him proposing something he knows the GOP will oppose, which means the Democrats can launch their fictitious "war on women" again, in the hopes that it will make a dent with voters in the mid-terms later this year.

It's certainly a political play, but the war on women if pretty well founded, no? Or war on anyone more likely to vote Dem, perhaps.

 

[McGarnicle]

Women often don't perform as well in the business world. There are exceptions of course, but they are very often ruled by emotion vs. logic. It is difficult to solve problems with a woman who gets upset instead of calmly brainstorming. Also, unfair or not, there is often the assumption that a woman is eventually going to need to take time off to squeeze out a rugrat. This can limit her opportunities for promotion. Lastly, women often are not as aggressive as men when negotiating salaries.

 

[SeveredHorseHeads]

Today, President Obama noted that women, on average, receive .77 cents for every dollar that men receive for doing the exact same jobs. He said that women should not be punished for taking time off when they are pregnant. He said, "We're no longer living in an episode of Mad Men; it's time to end this embarrassment.". Obama challenged Congress to pass a new Equal Pay law.

Agree or disagree?

I dispute his premise, that women receive 77% of the compensation as men for equal jobs, when taking into account qualifications, experience, and productivity. Put simply, I just don't believe this talking point.

I agree with this. There are a lot of moving parts when it comes to compensation. I have the same job as the guy next to me, but I know I get paid more because I have more experience and negotiated a better package. Is that unfair somehow?

 

[Black Box]

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-77-cent-exaggeration/

The ad cites the most recent annual Census Bureau findings on median annual income, released last September. And indeed, Census concluded that in 2010, “the earnings of women who worked full time, year-round were 77 percent of that for men working full time, year-round.”

But that’s the median (midpoint) for all women in all jobs, not for women doing “the same work” or even necessarily working the same number of hours. Furthermore, the raw gap for all women is not quite as large when looking at weekly earnings rather than yearly earnings.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Today, President Obama noted that women, on average, receive .77 cents for every dollar that men receive for doing the exact same jobs.

Whenever somebody uses that statistic in this context, you know immediately that the speaker doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[Spanky267]

The Daily Beast, clearly not a friend of the right wing seems to disagree with the presidents assertion. A claim he made during the state of the union address.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/01/no-women-don-t-make-less-money-than-men.html#url=/articles/2014/02/01/no-women-don-t-make-less-money-than-men.html

Excerpt: What is wrong and embarrassing is the President of the United States reciting a massively discredited factoid. The 23-cent gender pay gap is simply the difference between the average earnings of all men and women working full-time. It does not account for differences in occupations, positions, education, job tenure, or hours worked per week. When all these relevant factors are taken into consideration, the wage gap narrows to about five cents. And no one knows if the five cents is a result of discrimination or some other subtle, hard-to-measure difference between male and female workers.

Women make up a huge portion of the workers in service industries and other low wage fields. While men dominate the higher paying blue collar trades. There are more men than women in the workforce as well. About 1.5 million more.

 

[SeveredHorseHeads]

The maternity leave is a tough one to deal with. At my company they give 4 months maternity leave. How can you put someone who hasn't worked for 4 months of the year on an equal basis with someone who has worked the whole year? I don't really know the answer.

 

[Black Box]

That tells me it is a terribly misleading figure even when accurately portrayed

 

[Scoresman]

What is the argument used to defend paying women less for the exact same work?

I suspect it's similar to the anti-gay stance in that the only argument is rooted in either bigotry or religion.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Hey look, Obama has been trumpeting the same BS claim for years:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jun/21/barack-obama/barack-obama-ad-says-women-are-paid-77-cents-dolla/

And, as usual, Tim is totally misinformed on a topic HE STARTED.

 

[RCon]

What is the argument used to defend paying women less for the exact same work?

I suspect it's similar to the anti-gay stance in that the only argument is rooted in either bigotry or religion.

Who's making the argument that women should be paid less for the exact same work?

 

[Koya]

Obama once again not helping his cause. Ugh.

Let's focus on all these ancillary issues, muddle up the health care issue completely and throw away a winnable election at the risk of the furtherance of civil rights in both the legislative and judicial branches for years to come!

woo hoo!

 

[Spanky267]

Today, President Obama noted that women, on average, receive .77 cents for every dollar that men receive for doing the exact same jobs. He said that women should not be punished for taking time off when they are pregnant. He said, "We're no longer living in an episode of Mad Men; it's time to end this embarrassment.". Obama challenged Congress to pass a new Equal Pay law.

Agree or disagree?

I dispute his premise, that women receive 77% of the compensation as men for equal jobs, when taking into account qualifications, experience, and productivity. Put simply, I just don't believe this talking point.

I agree with this. There are a lot of moving parts when it comes to compensation. I have the same job as the guy next to me, but I know I get paid more because I have more experience and negotiated a better package. Is that unfair somehow?

According to the president it is not. If the guy next to you were a gal, then it would be a national tragedy.

 

[fantasycurse42]

When there is a hostage situation, they negotiate for the release of women and children first like bullets don't hurt me.

When a fire strikes, who gets out first, women and children... while I stand around like I'm not flammable.

If women want equal pay, then they give these liberties up.

- Bill Burr

 

[Mr. Cross]

Slavery is a bigger injustice. He should make reparations to blacks before anything else. The government owes billions.

 

[Scoresman]

What is the argument used to defend paying women less for the exact same work?

I suspect it's similar to the anti-gay stance in that the only argument is rooted in either bigotry or religion.

Who's making the argument that women should be paid less for the exact same work?

Wasn't implying anybody here was.

 

[fantasycurse42]

When there is a hostage situation, they negotiate for the release of women and children first like bullets don't hurt me.

When a fire strikes, who gets out first, women and children... while I stand around like I'm not flammable.

If women want equal pay, then they give these liberties up.

- Bill Burr

####### HYSTERICAL

 

[TheIronSheik]

What is the argument used to defend paying women less for the exact same work?

I suspect it's similar to the anti-gay stance in that the only argument is rooted in either bigotry or religion.

Wait. So we have to pay women AND gays equal pay?!? America's going down the ####ter.

 

[Sarnoff]

Today, President Obama noted that women, on average, receive .77 cents for every dollar that men receive for doing the exact same jobs.

Whenever somebody uses that statistic in this context, you know immediately that the speaker doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[timschochet]

Hey look, Obama has been trumpeting the same BS claim for years:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jun/21/barack-obama/barack-obama-ad-says-women-are-paid-77-cents-dolla/

And, as usual, Tim is totally misinformed on a topic HE STARTED.

How am I misinformed? I was repeating what the Presidrnt said today, including the fact that he is proposing this as a new initiative. I didn't say Obama was right, nor did I offer any opinion.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Obama once again not helping his cause. Ugh.

Let's focus on all these ancillary issues, muddle up the health care issue completely and throw away a winnable election at the risk of the furtherance of civil rights in both the legislative and judicial branches for years to come!

woo hoo!

This has been one of my biggest issues with Obama. I know that the President can't really change the economy and create jobs, per se. But, damn man, at least try and look like you're attempting to do it. When he was elected and everyone was out of work, he was like, "OK. I guess the first thing I should do is try and get everyone healthcare."

Like I said, I voted for the cat the first time, and I was highly disappointed.

 

[The General]

An episode of Mad Men is much better work place environment than your typical office I'd think, Obama. Bad reference.

 

[Mr. Cross]

Everybody should be paid the same no matter what their job. It isn't right that a CEO makes 50 million a year while the workers make $8 an hour. A law should be passed that makes everybody be paid the same per hour.

 

[RCon]

What is the argument used to defend paying women less for the exact same work?

I suspect it's similar to the anti-gay stance in that the only argument is rooted in either bigotry or religion.

Who's making the argument that women should be paid less for the exact same work?

Wasn't implying anybody here was.

So who do you think is making that argument?

 

[Black Box]

Based on this fact, I am going to vote for Hillary this upcoming presidential election so that we can finally start cutting into the deficit.

 

[Sarnoff]

Today, President Obama noted that women, on average, receive .77 cents for every dollar that men receive for doing the exact same jobs.

Whenever somebody uses that statistic in this context, you know immediately that the speaker doesn't know what he's talking about.

Ironically, the only place the "women earn 77% of what men do" stat is true is Obama's White House. And his Senate office. He has, himself, paid his female staffers significantly less than his male staffers.

But data from the Obama White House’s 2011 annual report show that female staffers there earn a median salary 18 percent lower than that of men.

And nearly four years ago, at the height of the 2008 election season, Scripps Howard syndicated columnist Deroy Murdock wrote that female staffers in Obama’s U.S. Senate office, too, were shortchanged.

“Obama’s average male employee earned $54,397,” Murdock determined from online Senate salary records. But the future president’s “30 female employees … [earned] $45,152, on average.”

 

[Sarnoff]

Nonsense. The 77 percent figure is bogus because it averages all full-time women, no matter what education and profession, with all full-time men. Even with such averaging, the latest Labor Department figures show that women working full-time make 81 percent of full-time men's wages. For men and women who work 40 hours weekly, the ratio is 88 percent.

Unmarried childless women's salaries, however, often exceed men's. In a comparison of unmarried and childless men and women between the ages of 35 and 43, women earn more: 108 cents on a man's dollar.

Mr. President, if you're so concerned about the wage gap, why not fix it in your White House? In 2012, female White House staffers made 87 cents on a man's dollar, according to an analysis of published salaries by the Daily Caller.

Women make less than men because they choose more humanities and fewer science and math majors at college. Then, when they graduate, more enter the non-profit or government sector. Finally, many choose to work fewer hours to better combine work and family. In May, 2013, according to Labor Department data, 23 percent of women worked part-time, compared to 11 percent of men.

To solve the pay gap, the president reiterated his call for passage of the misnamed Paycheck Fairness Act sponsored by Representative Rosa DeLauro (D-CT) and Senator Barbara Mikulski (D-MD). The bill has no chance of becoming law in this Congress, because it failed to pass the Democratic-controlled Congress in the first two years of the president's term.

If the bill were passed, the threat of litigation about pay differences between men and women and minorities and whites would raise the potential cost of employment, discouraging hiring.

 

[Spanky267]

Everybody should be paid the same no matter what their job. It isn't right that a CEO makes 50 million a year while the workers make $8 an hour. A law should be passed that makes everybody be paid the same per hour.

Isnt that what the whole income inequality crowd believes? Trash Collectors pay = Nuerosurgeon pay?

 

[Sarnoff]

All this is about getting women out to vote in the midterms. And laying groundwork for Hillary's campaign.

 

[squidrope]

Women often don't perform as well in the business world. There are exceptions of course, but they are very often ruled by emotion vs. logic. It is difficult to solve problems with a woman who gets upset instead of calmly brainstorming. Also, unfair or not, there is often the assumption that a woman is eventually going to need to take time off to squeeze out a rugrat. This can limit her opportunities for promotion. Lastly, women often are not as aggressive as men when negotiating salaries.

WOWI've never been to that world you live in.

 

[Koya]

Obama once again not helping his cause. Ugh.

Let's focus on all these ancillary issues, muddle up the health care issue completely and throw away a winnable election at the risk of the furtherance of civil rights in both the legislative and judicial branches for years to come!

woo hoo!

This has been one of my biggest issues with Obama. I know that the President can't really change the economy and create jobs, per se. But, damn man, at least try and look like you're attempting to do it. When he was elected and everyone was out of work, he was like, "OK. I guess the first thing I should do is try and get everyone healthcare."

Like I said, I voted for the cat the first time, and I was highly disappointed.

Same here. Gary J. second go around - but if I had to, I'd have gone Obama over Romney. Just a complete miscalculation of priorities and the political realities of DC.

So we are going to focus on THIS now? I'm not saying there's no issue regarding unfair pay, but REALLY? With ALL THE OTHER #### we have going on? With items, such as infrastructure investment and/or repatriating TRILLIONS of dollars stashed overseas because of our punitive corporate tax structure, both of which could conceivably garner bi-partisan support, we are going to find another ####### wedge issue?

Ugh.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Hey look, Obama has been trumpeting the same BS claim for years:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jun/21/barack-obama/barack-obama-ad-says-women-are-paid-77-cents-dolla/

And, as usual, Tim is totally misinformed on a topic HE STARTED.

How am I misinformed? I was repeating what the Presidrnt said today, including the fact that he is proposing this as a new initiative. I didn't say Obama was right, nor did I offer any opinion.

 

[Koya]

All this is about getting women out to vote in the midterms. And laying groundwork for Hillary's campaign.

Scary as it is, I'm warming to Hillary. HATED her for good long time. But she's earned respect. Unlike this president, she's smart, she's calculating, she takes no #### and she has a pair.

 

[Scoresman]

What is the argument used to defend paying women less for the exact same work?

I suspect it's similar to the anti-gay stance in that the only argument is rooted in either bigotry or religion.

Who's making the argument that women should be paid less for the exact same work?

Wasn't implying anybody here was.

So who do you think is making that argument?

Well, if this is supposedly going to Congress to vote, then unless you think it will unanimously pass, then I'm talking about the nay voters. Just curious if there's an official position on the nay side that isn't simply sexism.

 

[worrierking]

The president's speech is political, not practical. It doesn't matter whether or not it is factual or if he can actually do anything about it. (I suspect he knows he can't).

But he can focus the news cycle on an issue that is important to his base and off things like Ukraine, in which he looks weak and impotent.

The added bonus is that some backwoods republican official is highly likely to make a Neanderthal comment about women in the workplace and he can continue the narrative and Rachel Maddow will have an opportunity to do a whole segment on the Neanderthal.

 

[Mr. Cross]

Everybody should be paid the same no matter what their job. It isn't right that a CEO makes 50 million a year while the workers make $8 an hour. A law should be passed that makes everybody be paid the same per hour.

Isnt that what the whole income inequality crowd believes? Trash Collectors pay = Nuerosurgeon pay?

The CEO does not work millions of times harder. This is the richest country in the world but people are starving and do not have shelter. Equal pay for all. There is plenty to go around.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

He said that women should not be punished for taking time off when they are pregnant.

This is the part of Obama's speech that is interesting. (The 77% thing is just stupid and he should be called out on it.)

I think it might be fairer if women didn't face negative repercussions to their income for taking pregnancy-related time off. But I can't think of any good legislative solutions to the problem.

Requiring employers to pay women as if they never got pregnant doesn't really fix things. It doesn't help women who are self-employed, for example. If my neighbor and I are both self-employed women who play guitar at restaurants/bars for our income, how is the government going to ensure that I still make as much as my neighbor when I take a few months off from performing and she doesn't? Which restaurants/bars that I don't perform at are supposed to pay me?

Even for women who are employed by employers other than themselves, requiring employers to pay pregnant women for their time off may not be such a good idea. It will make women less employable. It's essentially making employers pay more per hour of work for women of childbearing age than for other employees, thus making other employees comparatively more attractive in the job market. That's not good for young women's employment prospects.

The best solution (which also comes up in discussions of minimum wage) may be to shift the burden from the employer to the government (i.e., to taxpayers in general). Allow the employer to give the pregnant woman unpaid time off, but have the government write her a check to cover any lost salary. That's just as good from a pregnant woman's perspective, and it removes some of the disincentive employers would otherwise have to hire women of childbearing age. (There's still the problem that a woman will miss out on work experience during her pregnancy leave, and that she'll have to be replaced temporarily, which involves transaction costs to the employer.)

But that last solution makes it look like the government is paying women to have babies, and moreover, it's paying high-income women a lot more than it's paying low-income women. Why would it do that? Are rich white babies worth more than poor black babies? There may be issues there . . .

 

[Koya]

Everybody should be paid the same no matter what their job. It isn't right that a CEO makes 50 million a year while the workers make $8 an hour. A law should be passed that makes everybody be paid the same per hour.

Isnt that what the whole income inequality crowd believes? Trash Collectors pay = Nuerosurgeon pay?

The CEO does not work millions of times harder. This is the richest country in the world but people are starving and do not have shelter. Equal pay for all. There is plenty to go around.

All sarcasm aside, and whatever your political ideology is, I'd hope that we can agree that our nation, considering its abundant wealth, knowledge and resources, has and continues to do a terrible job in meeting the needs of a large portion of its populace - and that the gap between wealthy and poor is a tremendous issue.

Now, how you plan to reverse that reality we can debate, but hopefully the fact that we have so much of the wealthiest people in the nation but also the largest per capita rate of imprisonment, and then you look at the social-economic factors of who ends up there, well... we really should do a lot better.

 

[Sarnoff]

Well, this was fun. Tim, did the President say anything else today that we can completely debunk in 15 minutes?

 

[TheIronSheik]

All this is about getting women out to vote in the midterms. And laying groundwork for Hillary's campaign.

Scary as it is, I'm warming to Hillary. HATED her for good long time. But she's earned respect. Unlike this president, she's smart, she's calculating, she takes no #### and she has a pair.

I agree. I liked Hilary more than I liked Obama back in '08. I think she could do a good job. The one thing I think is a problem is that she'll be just as polarizing as Obama is. And that's not her fault. But I really would love to see a candidate from either side, that could maybe start to shrink the rift that has been getting wider and wider in this country.

 

[RCon]

What is the argument used to defend paying women less for the exact same work?

I suspect it's similar to the anti-gay stance in that the only argument is rooted in either bigotry or religion.

Who's making the argument that women should be paid less for the exact same work?

Wasn't implying anybody here was.

So who do you think is making that argument?

Well, if this is supposedly going to Congress to vote, then unless you think it will unanimously pass, then I'm talking about the nay voters. Just curious if there's an official position on the nay side that isn't simply sexism.

I imagine there's a lot more to the proposed bill than what you've written here. There's also the issue of defining "equal work", especially if we allow "work" to include such things as qualifications, education, experience, productivity, etc. Much of those things are also subjective, so there's no good way to define "equal" in legislation. Depending on the actual text of the bill, there could be all sorts of good reasons to oppose it.

 

[RCon]

The president's speech is political, not practical. It doesn't matter whether or not it is factual or if he can actually do anything about it. (I suspect he knows he can't).

But he can focus the news cycle on an issue that is important to his base and off things like Ukraine, in which he looks weak and impotent.

The added bonus is that some backwoods republican official is highly likely to make a Neanderthal comment about women in the workplace and he can continue the narrative and Rachel Maddow will have an opportunity to do a whole segment on the Neanderthal.

This. Especially that last part.

 

[Boston]

All this is about getting women out to vote in the midterms. And laying groundwork for Hillary's campaign.

Standard operating procedure...the playbook never changes (especially if the economy is doing badly)...and why should it...until the media starts calling them on it I don't blame the dems for playing the race/sex/class card...ride it out until it doesn't work anymore...

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Today, President Obama noted that women, on average, receive .77 cents for every dollar that men receive for doing the exact same jobs. He said that women should not be punished for taking time off when they are pregnant. He said, "We're no longer living in an episode of Mad Men; it's time to end this embarrassment.". Obama challenged Congress to pass a new Equal Pay law.

Agree or disagree?

The point to be made here is about how Roger Ales' creation of wedge issue politics as a catalyst for mega-fundraising, and as perfected by Karl Rove and David Axelrod, has become the tail that wags the dog which is our republic.

 

[Sand]

Today, President Obama noted that women, on average, receive .77 cents for every dollar that men receive for doing the exact same jobs. He said that women should not be punished for taking time off when they are pregnant. He said, "We're no longer living in an episode of Mad Men; it's time to end this embarrassment.". Obama challenged Congress to pass a new Equal Pay law.

Agree or disagree?

Besides the fact that these are horrible numbers and that there are societal reasons for the rest of the gap and that young women now are earning more than men on average?

Oh, well, here's a good one. If we really want to equal this out we need to kill about 3,500 more women per year. That is the current gap in workplace deaths per year between males and females. And guess what? Those jobs tend to carry a higher pay due to the danger involved.

So Obama wants to kill a few thousand women - awesome thing to fight for.