***Official 2012 Hot Stove Thread (1 Viewer)

[boubucarow]

International players should be subject to the draft like every other player.total bs that these guys go to the highest bidder.

NPB is a professional league Darvish's case is much more like an international transfer in soccer than some American high schooler.

I'd say he's more like a European professional basketball player or hockey player, and those guys are subject to the US professional league drafts.Soccer doesn't have player drafts and other rules intended to preserve competitive balance like American sports do. It's an integral part of our sports leagues. Foreign professional baseball players are the only exception, and it's silly.

Any reason why the NBA can force such a player into the draft and then it is up to the organization with the rights to negotiate a buy out? Any reason MLB can't or won't?

 

[dparker713]

International players should be subject to the draft like every other player.total bs that these guys go to the highest bidder.

NPB is a professional league Darvish's case is much more like an international transfer in soccer than some American high schooler.

I'd say he's more like a European professional basketball player or hockey player, and those guys are subject to the US professional league drafts.Soccer doesn't have player drafts and other rules intended to preserve competitive balance like American sports do. It's an integral part of our sports leagues. Foreign professional baseball players are the only exception, and it's silly.

Its probably more silly that in the land of the free, a country known for its capitalism, we expect our sports leagues to be socialist.

 

[TobiasFunke]

International players should be subject to the draft like every other player.total bs that these guys go to the highest bidder.

NPB is a professional league Darvish's case is much more like an international transfer in soccer than some American high schooler.

I'd say he's more like a European professional basketball player or hockey player, and those guys are subject to the US professional league drafts.Soccer doesn't have player drafts and other rules intended to preserve competitive balance like American sports do. It's an integral part of our sports leagues. Foreign professional baseball players are the only exception, and it's silly.

Its probably more silly that in the land of the free, a country known for its capitalism, we expect our sports leagues to be socialist.

The sports leagues are in the business of capturing our entertainment dollars by keeping as many fans as possible buying tickets and watching games. They make more of it when they provide a competitive balance among the teams so that more fans have a vested interest. There's no law that forces them to be that way- the market dictates it to them. If it wasn't the best business model, they'd switch. So what exactly are you whining about?

 

[dparker713]

International players should be subject to the draft like every other player.total bs that these guys go to the highest bidder.

NPB is a professional league Darvish's case is much more like an international transfer in soccer than some American high schooler.

I'd say he's more like a European professional basketball player or hockey player, and those guys are subject to the US professional league drafts.Soccer doesn't have player drafts and other rules intended to preserve competitive balance like American sports do. It's an integral part of our sports leagues. Foreign professional baseball players are the only exception, and it's silly.

Its probably more silly that in the land of the free, a country known for its capitalism, we expect our sports leagues to be socialist.

The sports leagues are in the business of capturing our entertainment dollars by keeping as many fans as possible buying tickets and watching games. They make more of it when they provide a competitive balance among the teams so that more fans have a vested interest. There's no law that forces them to be that way- the market dictates it to them. If it wasn't the best business model, they'd switch. So what exactly are you whining about?

Im not whining about anything. Merely pointing out that a lack of a draft is hardly silly. And competitive balance is hardly proven to drive more fans. The NBA has historically been more popular with a dominant team/player. MLB revenues have skyrocketed during a time of Yankee/Red Sox dominance. And the most popular sport in the world has staggering competitive balance issues within the top leagues, yet Barca's brilliance and dominance is hardly driving fans away.No, drafts are about cost control for the owners. Its not something the marketplace has dictated, its something owners instituted for their bottom line, not the popularity of the sport.

 

[Guest]

I'd say he's more like a European professional basketball player or hockey player, and those guys are subject to the US professional league drafts.Soccer doesn't have player drafts and other rules intended to preserve competitive balance like American sports do. It's an integral part of our sports leagues. Foreign professional baseball players are the only exception, and it's silly.

Baseball's draft, developmental curve, and developmental stage that most foreign players sign make it an extremely bad comparison. Japanese professional players are the exception, not the rule. Most are Latin teenagers (according to their papers, anyway!) who are a speculative buy anyway. Foreign signings are actually one of the most leveling things that exist in baseball. Teams like the Padres who operate on a relatively low budget are able to leverage their spending on Latin scouting into big rewards down the pipe. And the whole Japanese situation with the posting fee is that they won't try to sue MLB any more. It's not just for competitive or non-competitive reasons.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Im not whining about anything. Merely pointing out that a lack of a draft is hardly silly.

And competitive balance is hardly proven to drive more fans. The NBA has historically been more popular with a dominant team/player. MLB revenues have skyrocketed during a time of Yankee/Red Sox dominance. And the most popular sport in the world has staggering competitive balance issues within the top leagues, yet Barca's brilliance and dominance is hardly driving fans away.

No, drafts are about cost control for the owners. Its not something the marketplace has dictated, its something owners instituted for their bottom line, not the popularity of the sport.

Interesting topic, actually, although this may be the wrong place for it.I completely disagree with the bolded, And I can't help but notice that your analysis of whether competitive balance drives fan interest leaves off one of America's more profitable professional sports leagues. I think we both know why.

American fans love superstars and superteams, sure, and those draw casual viewers by the millions. But there also needs to be some sort of mechanism in place that gives the fans of the have-nots hope for the future. Otherwise the leagues will contract drastically because the teams won't be profitable, and that is ultimately bad for the bottom line of everyone.

For some reason soccer fans don't demand something like this (maybe because it's never really been a part of their sport so they just don't think about it), but it's pretty clear to me that Americans do.

 

[Premier]

Peeeeeeeeeeena!!!

Rays are loaded for bear.

 

[the moops]

Peeeeeeeeeeena!!!Rays are loaded for bear.

Are you forgetting Pena's terrible year last time he played for the Rays?

 

[Eephus]

Peeeeeeeeeeena!!!Rays are loaded for bear.

Are you forgetting Pena's terrible year last time he played for the Rays?

Pena's production in 2010 was diminished by an abnormally low BABIP. He's turning 34 this year so there's always the possibility of a sudden dropoff but otherwise he's pretty much of a known quantity at this point in his career. He fills a need without a long-term commitment so it's a decent signing IMO.

 

[Premier]

Peeeeeeeeeeena!!!Rays are loaded for bear.

Are you forgetting Pena's terrible year last time he played for the Rays?

He's good for above-average power and defense, costs the Rays nothing in the way of players, and they filled their biggest off-season need (LH power) without giving up a young arm or making a dreadful long-term commitment.

 

[shadyridr]

Peeeeeeeeeeena!!!Rays are loaded for bear.

Are you forgetting Pena's terrible year last time he played for the Rays?

Hes better than Casey Kotchman

 

[dparker713]

Im not whining about anything. Merely pointing out that a lack of a draft is hardly silly.

And competitive balance is hardly proven to drive more fans. The NBA has historically been more popular with a dominant team/player. MLB revenues have skyrocketed during a time of Yankee/Red Sox dominance. And the most popular sport in the world has staggering competitive balance issues within the top leagues, yet Barca's brilliance and dominance is hardly driving fans away.

No, drafts are about cost control for the owners. Its not something the marketplace has dictated, its something owners instituted for their bottom line, not the popularity of the sport.

Interesting topic, actually, although this may be the wrong place for it.I completely disagree with the bolded, And I can't help but notice that your analysis of whether competitive balance drives fan interest leaves off one of America's more profitable professional sports leagues. I think we both know why.

American fans love superstars and superteams, sure, and those draw casual viewers by the millions. But there also needs to be some sort of mechanism in place that gives the fans of the have-nots hope for the future. Otherwise the leagues will contract drastically because the teams won't be profitable, and that is ultimately bad for the bottom line of everyone.

For some reason soccer fans don't demand something like this (maybe because it's never really been a part of their sport so they just don't think about it), but it's pretty clear to me that Americans do.

The NFL has similar competitive balance to baseball, partially because of the small sample sizes and massive effects of fairly random events. Regardless of the competitive balance however, this randomness makes football a great gambling sport. That plus fantasy has largely driven the increased popularity of the NFL. Its not the competitive balance, its the unpredictability of the outcomes.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Im not whining about anything. Merely pointing out that a lack of a draft is hardly silly.

And competitive balance is hardly proven to drive more fans. The NBA has historically been more popular with a dominant team/player. MLB revenues have skyrocketed during a time of Yankee/Red Sox dominance. And the most popular sport in the world has staggering competitive balance issues within the top leagues, yet Barca's brilliance and dominance is hardly driving fans away.

No, drafts are about cost control for the owners. Its not something the marketplace has dictated, its something owners instituted for their bottom line, not the popularity of the sport.

Interesting topic, actually, although this may be the wrong place for it.I completely disagree with the bolded, And I can't help but notice that your analysis of whether competitive balance drives fan interest leaves off one of America's more profitable professional sports leagues. I think we both know why.

American fans love superstars and superteams, sure, and those draw casual viewers by the millions. But there also needs to be some sort of mechanism in place that gives the fans of the have-nots hope for the future. Otherwise the leagues will contract drastically because the teams won't be profitable, and that is ultimately bad for the bottom line of everyone.

For some reason soccer fans don't demand something like this (maybe because it's never really been a part of their sport so they just don't think about it), but it's pretty clear to me that Americans do.

The NFL has similar competitive balance to baseball, partially because of the small sample sizes and massive effects of fairly random events. Regardless of the competitive balance however, this randomness makes football a great gambling sport. That plus fantasy has largely driven the increased popularity of the NFL. Its not the competitive balance, its the unpredictability of the outcomes.

This is false. They're similar with respect to number of teams that win titles, but they are different when it comes to the number of teams that have no recent success and basically no chance of success in the near future. I believe every team in the NFL except the Bills has been in the playoffs within the last eight seasons. Baseball has six teams- 20% of the league- with longer playoff droughts than that.The "competitive balance" issues is always interesting, but back to the regularly scheduled programming. Love the Pena signing for the Rays.

Also wondering why the Giants aren't in on Fielder. They have a giant pile of money to spend with what I assume is more revenue after winning a Series and their bad deals expiring soon, even after they extend Lincecum, no? Do they like Belt that much? Just don't want two fat guys at the infield corners?

 

[Eephus]

Also wondering why the Giants aren't in on Fielder. They have a giant pile of money to spend with what I assume is more revenue after winning a Series and their bad deals expiring soon, even after they extend Lincecum, no? Do they like Belt that much? Just don't want two fat guys at the infield corners?

The organization has been talking about a $130M budget all off-season. It kept them from making any serious effort at retaining Beltran, even after giving up their top pitching prospect for what amounted to a rental. The top priorities have been putting together long-term deals for Lincecum and Cain which hasn't happened yet. The Vogelsong and Sandoval contracts are defensible and Pagan and Melky are should be nominal improvements. Fielder would sure help the middle of this lineup.The Giants aren't helped at all by having nearly $30M in dead or dying money tied up on Rowand and Zito. But I'm not blaming Brian Sabean for that.

 

[RnR]

The Giants aren't helped at all by having nearly $30M in dead or dying money tied up on Rowand and Zito. But I'm not blaming Brian Sabean for that.

Sure.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Hey, look at this, the Rockies make a trade I like:

Acquire Marco Scutaro from the Red Sox for spare arm Clayton Mortensen.

 

[shadyridr]

red sox realize they need a shortstop to field a legal lineup right?

 

[Brady Marino]

red sox realize they need a shortstop to field a legal lineup right?

Do they really like Iglesias?

 

[shadyridr]

red sox realize they need a shortstop to field a legal lineup right?

Do they really like Iglesias?

yes but are they starting him on opening day?

 

[Eephus]

red sox realize they need a shortstop to field a legal lineup right?

Do they really like Iglesias?

yes but are they starting him on opening day?

Punto

 

[shadyridr]

red sox realize they need a shortstop to field a legal lineup right?

Do they really like Iglesias?

yes but are they starting him on opening day?

Punto

 

[boubucarow]

red sox realize they need a shortstop to field a legal lineup right?

Do they really like Iglesias?

yes but are they starting him on opening day?

Punto

Maybe the mighty Aviles/Punto platoon.

 

[the moops]

red sox realize they need a shortstop to field a legal lineup right?

Do they really like Iglesias?

yes but are they starting him on opening day?

Punto

Maybe the mighty Aviles/Punto platoon.

Word seems to be that it is either Aviles or Iglesias.Money saved from trading Scutaro may be used to sign Oswalt.

 

[jfranco77]

So a team with a shortstop signed through 2020 just traded FOR a shortstop. And they got him from a team without one?

 

[Bogart]

So a team with a shortstop signed through 2020 just traded FOR a shortstop. And they got him from a team without one?

That really doesn't make sense. And since when do teams like the Red Sox worry about saving salary?

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

So a team with a shortstop signed through 2020 just traded FOR a shortstop. And they got him from a team without one?

That really doesn't make sense. And since when do teams like the Red Sox worry about saving salary?

Scutaro will play 2B for the Rockies. The Red Sox weren't looking to save money, just free up some so they could spend more on Roy Oswalt.

 

[Captain Hook]

red sox realize they need a shortstop to field a legal lineup right?

Do they really like Iglesias?

yes but are they starting him on opening day?

Punto

Almost correct - they are going to use a combination of Aviles and Punto.....at least to start the season

 

[shadyridr]

So a team with a shortstop signed through 2020 just traded FOR a shortstop. And they got him from a team without one?

That really doesn't make sense. And since when do teams like the Red Sox worry about saving salary?

Scutaro will play 2B for the Rockies. The Red Sox weren't looking to save money, just free up some so they could spend more on Roy Oswalt.

then why trade Scutaro? They cant afford $6mil?

 

[the moops]

So a team with a shortstop signed through 2020 just traded FOR a shortstop. And they got him from a team without one?

That really doesn't make sense. And since when do teams like the Red Sox worry about saving salary?

Scutaro will play 2B for the Rockies. The Red Sox weren't looking to save money, just free up some so they could spend more on Roy Oswalt.

then why trade Scutaro? They cant afford $6mil?

Trying to stay below luxury tax

 

[shadyridr]

So a team with a shortstop signed through 2020 just traded FOR a shortstop. And they got him from a team without one?

That really doesn't make sense. And since when do teams like the Red Sox worry about saving salary?

Scutaro will play 2B for the Rockies. The Red Sox weren't looking to save money, just free up some so they could spend more on Roy Oswalt.

then why trade Scutaro? They cant afford $6mil?

Trying to stay below luxury tax

dont the massive penalties start in 2014?

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

Aviles has potential with the stick, adequate as a stopgap at SS. If that allows them to get Oswalt it was a smart move.

 

[Eephus]

red sox realize they need a shortstop to field a legal lineup right?

Do they really like Iglesias?

yes but are they starting him on opening day?

Punto

Almost correct - they are going to use a combination of Aviles and Punto.....at least to start the season

Advanced fielding metrics have Aviles as a slightly above average SS. I don't see it but I admit I haven't watched many Royals games. Iglesias will be lucky to be able to hit as well as Punto.

 

[the moops]

So a team with a shortstop signed through 2020 just traded FOR a shortstop. And they got him from a team without one?

That really doesn't make sense. And since when do teams like the Red Sox worry about saving salary?

Scutaro will play 2B for the Rockies. The Red Sox weren't looking to save money, just free up some so they could spend more on Roy Oswalt.

then why trade Scutaro? They cant afford $6mil?

Trying to stay below luxury tax

dont the massive penalties start in 2014?

I may be screwing this up, and am too lazy to look right now, but I think this is the deal.If teams are under the tax threshold in 2012, they get a 25% rebate on revenue sharing in 2013. If they are again under in 2013, they get a 50% rebate.

 

[Captain Placeholder]

Do the losing bids for Darvish ever get released?

 

[boubucarow]

Peeeeeeeeeeena!!!Rays are loaded for bear.

Are you forgetting Pena's terrible year last time he played for the Rays?

He's good for above-average power and defense, costs the Rays nothing in the way of players, and they filled their biggest off-season need (LH power) without giving up a young arm or making a dreadful long-term commitment.

Not so fast on the above average defense. He is tremendous catching bad throws but he was horrible otherwise last year. I have no clue how error prone the infield arms on the Rays are but they will have to challenge Pena enough to make up for his other shortcomings.

 

[Bogart]

Do the losing bids for Darvish ever get released?

If I was a losing team, I don't think I would want them released.Which would be worse: your bid loses by just a few dollars, or your fan base knowing that your bid was extremely low compared to the winning bid?

 

[Captain Placeholder]

Do the losing bids for Darvish ever get released?

If I was a losing team, I don't think I would want them released.Which would be worse: your bid loses by just a few dollars, or your fan base knowing that your bid was extremely low compared to the winning bid?

Exactly why I'm interested!!!

 

[Guest]

So a team with a shortstop signed through 2020 just traded FOR a shortstop. And they got him from a team without one?

That really doesn't make sense. And since when do teams like the Red Sox worry about saving salary?

Scutaro will play 2B for the Rockies. The Red Sox weren't looking to save money, just free up some so they could spend more on Roy Oswalt.

then why trade Scutaro? They cant afford $6mil?

Trying to stay below luxury tax

It still wouldn't seem to make that much of a difference but a WEEI article laid out that, for luxury tax purposes, Scutaro would have been $7.67MM in costs because of the way his contract had been accounted for the first 2 years.One thing that Boston has seemed to like to do over the past decade is to fly just around the luxury tax, dipping below it in somewhat transitional years. Their luxury tax assessments in each year...

2003: $0

2004: $3MM

2005: $4MM

2006: $0.5MM

2007: $6MM

2008: $0

2009: $0

2010: $1MM

2011: $3MM

 

[5Rings]

They have one of the five best starters in baseball in Weaver.They have a solid #2 starter in Wilson who is also lefthandedThey have Haren who can be eliteThey have a great managerThey have the best hitter in baseball over the last ten years, and one of the best for probably the next 4-6 yearsThey have a strong fan baseThey have guys like Morales They can always bring back Chone Figgins to ignite the magic I don't think they are worse for signing Pujols. This franchise plays in the #2 market where the dominant team is signing average middle infielder after middle infielder. I think they'll get their money back for signing Pujols, I don't think many franchises were in a position to say that.

Pardon the Hipple.Just wanted to say

 

[TobiasFunke]

Prince to the Tigers, 9 year deal?

Whoa.

Could Dr. D or another Tigers guy tell me how this makes sense? I get it for this year, but what do you do for the next two years of Martinez' deal? Just eat it as a cost of doing business?

 

[RnR]

Prince to the Tigers, 9 year deal?Whoa.Could Dr. D or another Tigers guy tell me how this makes sense? I get it for this year, but what do you do for the next two years of Martinez' deal? Just eat it as a cost of doing business?

That's a very good question. I'd assume V-Mart still has significant value on the trade market if his knee heals up alright, but they'll still have to eat some of his contract I'm sure.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Prince to the Tigers, 9 year deal?Whoa.Could Dr. D or another Tigers guy tell me how this makes sense? I get it for this year, but what do you do for the next two years of Martinez' deal? Just eat it as a cost of doing business?

That's a very good question. I'd assume V-Mart still has significant value on the trade market if his knee heals up alright, but they'll still have to eat some of his contract I'm sure.

Thanks.As a Nats fan I'm mildly bummed we didn't get him, but incredibly thankful and relieved that we didn't pay that kind of money for him. My team's budget for the last half of this decade didn't get bludgeoened, and a great baseball player goes to the AL. Win-win.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Also the Cecil/Detroit connection didn't occur to me at all until I read it somewhere else, but it's kinda cool.

 

[Guest]

Thanks.As a Nats fan I'm mildly bummed we didn't get him, but incredibly thankful and relieved that we didn't pay that kind of money for him. My team's budget for the last half of this decade didn't get bludgeoened, and a great baseball player goes to the AL. Win-win.

I dunno. Fielder is exactly the kind of player you want your team commiting big money to.

 

[dparker713]

So Heyman is saying Cabrera moves to DH. That pretty much sucks. Its proven that players hit worse as a DH than as a full time player in general.

Plus, take a look at the NL first basemen. Its dreadful.

 

[shadyridr]

So Heyman is saying Cabrera moves to DH. That pretty much sucks. Its proven that players hit worse as a DH than as a full time player in general. Plus, take a look at the NL first basemen. Its dreadful.

Did Cabrera agree to that?At least he can get in some drinking while on the bench

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Pitching in the AL this year is gonna be fun. Yankees, Red Sox, Tigers, Angels, Bautista on the Jays... ugh.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Thanks.As a Nats fan I'm mildly bummed we didn't get him, but incredibly thankful and relieved that we didn't pay that kind of money for him. My team's budget for the last half of this decade didn't get bludgeoened, and a great baseball player goes to the AL. Win-win.

I dunno. Fielder is exactly the kind of player you want your team commiting big money to.

Not sure I agree. He's a 5-6 WAR player at best for the next 5 years or so, after which he probably has to DH. That's a great ballplayer to be sure, but it's not 9 year 200+ million level performance.

 

[Guest]

Thanks.As a Nats fan I'm mildly bummed we didn't get him, but incredibly thankful and relieved that we didn't pay that kind of money for him. My team's budget for the last half of this decade didn't get bludgeoened, and a great baseball player goes to the AL. Win-win.

I dunno. Fielder is exactly the kind of player you want your team commiting big money to.

Not sure I agree. He's a 5-6 WAR player at best for the next 5 years or so, after which he probably has to DH. That's a great ballplayer to be sure, but it's not 9 year 200+ million level performance.

He can't lose that much team value going from 1B to DH. And at least he has a fairly projectible and steady skill set so you know you're not inking a big deal only to watch the guy lose his wheels and half his value or sit out from TJ for a season+.

 

[Bogart]

Pitching in the AL this year is gonna be fun. Yankees, Red Sox, Tigers, Angels, Bautista on the Jays... ugh.

Give me the Texas starting nine over each of those.