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***Official 2014 St. Louis Cardinals Thread*** (1 Viewer)

gianmarco

Footballguy
Let's fire it up.

The Cardinals today acquired outfielders Peter Bourjos and Randal Grichuk from the Los Angeles Angels in exchange for third baseman David Freese and pitcher Fernando Salas.
Hate to see Freese go but it was inevitable. Anyone care to comment on Bourjos? I don't know much about him at all.

 

Bruce Dickinson

Footballguy
I guess the trade is the definitive statement on whether Taveras can handle CF
Sure seems like it. Taveras supposably has an arm capable of throwing out baserunners from RF but never had the range for center. With Holliday in left, a CF with wide range is a necessity.

Lots of money available and open positions still to fill.

 

Bruce Dickinson

Footballguy
So with Freese gone and assuming Beltran finds more money elsewhere, what is the opening day lineup?

Carpenter 3B

Craig RF

Holliday LF

Adams 1B

Molina C

Jay CF

Wong 2B

Kozma SS

Oh man. That lineup needs another bat. Can Matt Adams play third?

 

Bruce Dickinson

Footballguy
How about the rotation?

Wainwright

Garcia

Lynn

Miller

Wacha

Obviously these five aren't etched in stone, and certainly not in that order.

Other possibles:

Joe Kelly: started in the playoffs, doesn't seem to make enough bats miss to start long-term

Tyler Lyons: kinda liked what I saw in the two starts I saw him pitch; bonus for being a lefty

Carlos Martinez: IMO he has front-of-the-rotation stuff, but who knows if he's ready

Trevor Rosenthal: I like him a lot as the closer; would add more value to the team if he could start, but are any of his pitches other than the high cheese MLB-quality?

There's enough money sitting around to add a veteran arm, but there sure seem to be enough options in-house.

 

Bruce Dickinson

Footballguy
I guess the trade is the definitive statement on whether Taveras can handle CF
:no: Taveras in RF, Jay/Bourjos platoon in CF.
Sugar Shane would like to have a word. :boxing:
Sugar Shane will still be in the mix since Holiday is Holiday and Bourjos is a cripple. In fact, wouldn't shock me if Jay was moved.
Jay's regression at the plate was perplexing. After seeing a few games in person, I think Jay is at his ceiling as an outfielder, too: he doesn't actually break on the ball that great, he's just fast, and looks faster than he is because you see him and Holliday run after balls hit to left-center. Plus, Jay can't throw, which is a problem in some parks.After last season, I wanted to give Jay one more season to win the CF job. I've seen enough. He works OK in the current outfield, but since he can't handle hitting at the top of the order, he's replaceable.

 

Eephus

Footballguy
I guess the trade is the definitive statement on whether Taveras can handle CF
:no: Taveras in RF, Jay/Bourjos platoon in CF.
Sugar Shane would like to have a word. :boxing:
Sugar Shane will still be in the mix since Holiday is Holiday and Bourjos is a cripple. In fact, wouldn't shock me if Jay was moved.
Jay's regression at the plate was perplexing. After seeing a few games in person, I think Jay is at his ceiling as an outfielder, too: he doesn't actually break on the ball that great, he's just fast, and looks faster than he is because you see him and Holliday run after balls hit to left-center. Plus, Jay can't throw, which is a problem in some parks.After last season, I wanted to give Jay one more season to win the CF job. I've seen enough. He works OK in the current outfield, but since he can't handle hitting at the top of the order, he's replaceable.
Bourjos is superior to Jay defensively and has historically hit RHP about as well as he has LHP. They have a number of options in the OF now whether or not Taveras is ready in April, June or September.

SS is still an obvious hole and Wong is unproven at 2B. They do have trade chips in Adams and their young pitching if they're not done dealing. They can also presumably afford to increase payroll.

 

Brady Marino

Footballguy
I guess the trade is the definitive statement on whether Taveras can handle CF
:no: Taveras in RF, Jay/Bourjos platoon in CF.
Sugar Shane would like to have a word. :boxing:
Sugar Shane will still be in the mix since Holiday is Holiday and Bourjos is a cripple. In fact, wouldn't shock me if Jay was moved.
Jay's regression at the plate was perplexing. After seeing a few games in person, I think Jay is at his ceiling as an outfielder, too: he doesn't actually break on the ball that great, he's just fast, and looks faster than he is because you see him and Holliday run after balls hit to left-center. Plus, Jay can't throw, which is a problem in some parks.After last season, I wanted to give Jay one more season to win the CF job. I've seen enough. He works OK in the current outfield, but since he can't handle hitting at the top of the order, he's replaceable.
My dream come true would be Lynn and Jay for JJ Hardy and something meager. Lynn has proven his future is in the pen since he wears down late in the season and Jay is Jay. Plus, you acquire Bourjos and Hardy in the same offseason and fielding nerds will have a collective orgasm.Of course this is just a pipe dream, but it was rumored that the Os offered Hardy for Shelby Miller and were turned down.

 

Eephus

Footballguy
Is Freese really that bad of a defender? My impression was always that he was mediocre and slow of foot but not a total butcher. But his 2013 advanced fielding stats are really terrible, much worse than in previous years. Is this just a small sample oddity, has he always been this bad or was an injury or something?

 

RnR

Footballguy
Is Freese really that bad of a defender? My impression was always that he was mediocre and slow of foot but not a total butcher. But his 2013 advanced fielding stats are really terrible, much worse than in previous years. Is this just a small sample oddity, has he always been this bad or was an injury or something?
Both of his ankles have been worked on, so his lateral movement sucks. Its not that his glove is that terrible, he just can't get to anything.

 

RnR

Footballguy
So with Freese gone and assuming Beltran finds more money elsewhere, what is the opening day lineup?

Carpenter 3B

Craig RF

Holliday LF

Adams 1B

Molina C

Jay CF

Wong 2B

Kozma SS

Oh man. That lineup needs another bat. Can Matt Adams play third?
They won't start with Kozma at SS. Promise.

Also, I'm guessing it is Bourjos over Jay in center at this point.

 
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Bruce Dickinson

Footballguy
RnR said:
Eephus said:
Is Freese really that bad of a defender? My impression was always that he was mediocre and slow of foot but not a total butcher. But his 2013 advanced fielding stats are really terrible, much worse than in previous years. Is this just a small sample oddity, has he always been this bad or was an injury or something?
Both of his ankles have been worked on, so his lateral movement sucks. Its not that his glove is that terrible, he just can't get to anything.
This. He can stop rockets hit right at him and his arm is fine for a 3B. He starts a lot of double plays with that pairing. However, a lot of balls that are playable for most 3Bs get by him. He got yanked a lot in the late innings for Descalso, who isn't exactly Graig Nettles over there but was clearly an upgrade.

 
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Bruce Dickinson

Footballguy
Bourjos is superior to Jay defensively and has historically hit RHP about as well as he has LHP. They have a number of options in the OF now whether or not Taveras is ready in April, June or September.

SS is still an obvious hole and Wong is unproven at 2B. They do have trade chips in Adams and their young pitching if they're not done dealing. They can also presumably afford to increase payroll.
Yeah, there's still a lot of money to spend. The payroll was about $120MM last season and a lot more big contracts are coming off the books than coming on. Chris Carpenter, Westbrook, Furcal, Mujica, and Freese were $30MM and some change and aren't coming back. Jay and Axford are the only significant arbitration-eligible money, but that's $2-3MM in raises, tops. If Beltran walks, that's another $13MM from last year unspent on 2014.

 

Bruce Dickinson

Footballguy
So with Freese gone and assuming Beltran finds more money elsewhere, what is the opening day lineup?

Carpenter 3B

Craig RF

Holliday LF

Adams 1B

Molina C

Jay CF

Wong 2B

Kozma SS

Oh man. That lineup needs another bat. Can Matt Adams play third?
They won't start with Kozma at SS. Promise.

Also, I'm guessing it is Bourjos over Jay in center at this point.
I hope you're right about Kozma. They can move Matt Carpenter to 3B if they don't find another one, but Plan A at SS is cringe-inducing and there's no Plan B.

I think you're right about Bourjos. After reading up on him some more, he looks like the everyday CF if he stays healthy.

 

Balco

Footballguy
The Cardinals have a ton of pieces to work with and some money to spend.

The Bourjos trade makes me think they are going to make a big push for Tulowitzki. I know Rockies management said he isn't going anywhere, but neither are the Rockies. If they can get young players for Tulo, they have to do it.

If I were the Cardinals, I would see if they would give up Cuddyer as well.

 

Ghost Rider

Footballguy
There is no way the Cardinals go into next season with Kozma at SS. With all of the money that is being freed up, they should be able to land a really good SS, and one that can freaking hit.

 

Doctor Detroit

Please remove your headgear
Cards about to sign Jhonny Peralta. Solid hitter, but how long can he stay at SS?
He is among the smoothest fielding shortstops in baseball, but he doesn't get to that many balls and he won't dive. I personally had no issue with him at SS and he can and does hit.

From reports though you paid north of $14 million a year, if that is the case...that's a lot for him IMO. Especially for 4 years or more. You could move him to 3B I suppose, just hope he stays away from the snacks between the start of year one and the start of year two.

 

Eephus

Footballguy
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Hilts

Footballguy
Cards about to sign Jhonny Peralta. Solid hitter, but how long can he stay at SS?
2011
I liked this post, but then I un-liked it. Peralta's UZR has been pretty good at SS over the last three years.
Just having a bit of fun at Mr Phoenix.

It fills a need with one of the best available guys, although the back end of the deal won't be pretty.
Seems like the back end of most deals these days get pretty ugly.
 

Brady Marino

Footballguy
Cards about to sign Jhonny Peralta. Solid hitter, but how long can he stay at SS?
2011
I liked this post, but then I un-liked it. Peralta's UZR has been pretty good at SS over the last three years.
Just having a bit of fun at Mr Phoenix.

It fills a need with one of the best available guys, although the back end of the deal won't be pretty.
I am not terribly worried about Peralta's last year or two. One thing the Cards love is position flexibility, and Peralta has proven he can handle multiple positions.
 

Balco

Footballguy
Cards fans, what do you think of Wong's offensive potential? I have him as a keeper in my NL only league. Is he an avg, SB guy? Or an all glove, no bat 2B?

 

gianmarco

Footballguy
Balco said:
Cards fans, what do you think of Wong's offensive potential? I have him as a keeper in my NL only league. Is he an avg, SB guy? Or an all glove, no bat 2B?
Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong but Wong was hitting well in the minors before being called up. He did pretty poorly at the plate after joining the Cards but the Card's front office has full confidence in him. Which means I do too.

 

Bruce Dickinson

Footballguy
Balco said:
Cards fans, what do you think of Wong's offensive potential? I have him as a keeper in my NL only league. Is he an avg, SB guy? Or an all glove, no bat 2B?
He's very talented. He was hitting .303/.369/.466 in AAA when the Cardinals called him up, so he can swing the bat. I'm concerned about how often he struck out in the minors, but he is fast enough to leg out some hits and was hitting some triples and homers in the minors.I don't know how many bases Wong will steal, as the Cardinals haven't run much under Matheny. However, Wong stole bases successfully at every level before the show.

 

Brady Marino

Footballguy
Balco said:
Cards fans, what do you think of Wong's offensive potential? I have him as a keeper in my NL only league. Is he an avg, SB guy? Or an all glove, no bat 2B?
Wong is a good hitter who hits for good average, takes a walk, and has developing power. 11 HRs in 463 ABs in AAA, but a SLG around .460 if I recall. Also had 20 stolen bases, so he can run. He will be good, just not sure if he will be good right off the bat in 2014.
 

Eephus

Footballguy
Balco said:
Cards fans, what do you think of Wong's offensive potential? I have him as a keeper in my NL only league. Is he an avg, SB guy? Or an all glove, no bat 2B?
His MiLB OPS was 100 points lower against LHP. He's young and still has development in him but I wouldn't be surprised to see him in a platoon with Kozma this year. :bag:

 

gianmarco

Footballguy
Cards fans, what do you think of Wong's offensive potential? I have him as a keeper in my NL only league. Is he an avg, SB guy? Or an all glove, no bat 2B?
His MiLB OPS was 100 points lower against LHP. He's young and still has development in him but I wouldn't be surprised to see him in a platoon with Kozma this year. :bag:
That would be awful. Let him play full time and see what you have. He seems like the kind of player that just needs to be in the lineup daily to get comfortable.

 

Bob Sacamano

Marc Levin groupie
Gotta figure there will be some kind of rotation set up between Craig, Adams, and Taveras, where Craig plays a lot of 1B and RF and they alternate who starts opposite him.

Bourjos has to start in CF as long as he's healthy.

 

SoCalBroncoFan

Footballguy
What about packaging Adams and Shelby Miller to the Rays for David Price?

I know the Cards have a lot of young pitching, but to add an ace like Price to Wainwright and Wacha would give you a top of the rotation like the Dodgers with Kershaw-Greinke-Ryu.

Then you could put Craig at first and use Taveras and Jay as your LF/4th OF. Would shore up the defense.

 
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Bob Sacamano

Marc Levin groupie
What about packaging Adams and Shelby Miller to the Rays for David Price?

I know the Cards have a lot of young pitching, but to add an ace like Price to Wainwright and Wacha would give you a top of the rotation like the Dodgers with Kershaw-Greinke-Ryu.

Then you could put Craig at first and use Taveras and Jay as your LF/4th OF. Would shore up the defense.
Might as well go balls out.

What about trading Holliday for a 24-pack of cold, frosty Budweiser, starting Taveras in LF, and signing Cano with the money saved?

At this point, I think they stand pat with their position players unless moving one causes them to also add a position player.

 
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Bob Sacamano

Marc Levin groupie
It will be interesting to see if this is the team they take to spring training, though. I really hadn't considered that they could go through this off-season without moving an arm. I know nobody wants to see Miller or Martinez go, but what do you do with them all now? On the one hand, I know you can never have too many arms. But on the other, the opportunity cost is potentially huge. And at some point it looks less like Mozeliak is being prudent about deals than that he's too chicken#### to pick a horse.

SP: Wainwright, Garcia, Wacha, Miller, Lynn?, Kelly? Martinez? Lyons? Trevor?

Kelly didn't seem well-suited to coming out of the 'pen. Martinez is probably too good to have in the 'pen. It seems like the ideal situation might be to showcase Garcia as healthy and hope somebody might be interested. But for what? He, Kelly, and Lynn seem like the 3 you'd most like to move and the 3 least likely to draw something good in return. Though a healthy Garcia also has the potential be your #3. Anybody want to wager on seeing a healthy Garcia?

Ideal rotations is probably Wainwright, Miller, Wacha, Garcia, Martinez. Lynn back to long relief. Lyons in the BP. Keep Trevor as closer, move Motte to setup? Thanks for the memories, Joe.

 

Brady Marino

Footballguy
Joe Kelly may have his most value right now since, personally, I think he is a bit overrated and he is still young and controllable. His WHIPs haven't been as good as his ERA has been and you have to wonder if a correction is coming.

 

Bruce Dickinson

Footballguy
Brady Marino said:


Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS

Peralta contract terms: $15.5M in '14, $15M in '15, $12.5M in '16, $10M in '17. rare frontloaded pact. #STLCards
Much better contract now.
Yes. Makes a lot of sense for the Cards to structure it this way. Those young arms will be much more expensive in 2017 than they are in 2014.
Also makes him easier to trade on the back end of the contract if the Cardinals want to go in a different direction.

 

curta269

Footballguy
They are having a great offseason so far!! They really only need someone that hits RH utility infielder and thats it. I don't think I have ever seen the roster being set so early. Its not even December yet. This is a good sign for us Cardinals fans!

 

Brady Marino

Footballguy
They are having a great offseason so far!! They really only need someone that hits RH utility infielder and thats it. I don't think I have ever seen the roster being set so early. Its not even December yet. This is a good sign for us Cardinals fans!
You may chuckle, but I wonder if the Cards take a flyer on Casey McGehee, who hit 27 HRs in Japan this past year. He could be a good compliment to Adams and Carp at 1st and 3rd respectively.
 

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