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*Official 2017 Super Bowl Champion Philadelphia Eagles* - Parade of Champions Down Broad Street! (5 Viewers)

Skoo said:
Was Smallwood really that bad last year?

I remember them playing the stupid RB carousel every game, randomly giving Sproles a ton of goal line touches. But I thought Wendell looked pretty good when he got the chance. Nothing special, but certainly not terrible.
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He looked really good at times IMO. If he can add 10 pounds and do better with pass protection he could be the starter. His injuries seemed flukey as well. 

 
mquinnjr said:
http://www.espn.com/blog/philadelphia-eagles/post/_/id/20888/guns-out-carson-wentz-goes-shooting-with-eagles-offensive-line

:wub:
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So who wants to mess with Carson Wentz and his Offensive line? Nice to see them hanging out. As long as they safely using them I see no reason to worry. Wentz seems very responsible with his hunting and weapons he owns. I know it's not everyones cup of tea and we could get into a whole gun debate but as long as they got level heads and not causing trouble I see no reason to worry. Sure you might want to see them doing something else but I love seeing players on the team gel together in the offseason. 

 
Skoo said:
Was Smallwood really that bad last year?

I remember them playing the stupid RB carousel every game, randomly giving Sproles a ton of goal line touches. But I thought Wendell looked pretty good when he got the chance. Nothing special, but certainly not terrible.
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Kind of reminded me of my Ridley and Blount days of Fantasy Football and NE RB gambling. Never knew which back BB was gonna use exclusively and if the dude you had fumbled the ball that was it for your guy that day. 

 
The Noid said:
That's essentially what this is. You get an extra first-round talent for next year. Yes, it's possible he doesn't come back 100%, but there's a level of risk taking someone like Quincy Wilson this year, instead, who just as easily could go down the first week of training camp like we have seen happen multiple times (or not pan out, talent-wise.) 
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Except Jones has already gone down.  So we are essentially taking a double risk on him.  1. He doesn't come back at 100%, AND 2. He doesn't pan out, talent-wise.

Also, you need to qualify your statement that Jones would be in the first round at 14-18 in 2018.  That's only if he comes back at 100%.  He could come back and only get to 95%.  Just that little bit could be the difference between being a starting CB and a guy who is just one step behind.

 
Snotbubbles said:
Except Jones has already gone down.  So we are essentially taking a double risk on him.  1. He doesn't come back at 100%, AND 2. He doesn't pan out, talent-wise.

Also, you need to qualify your statement that Jones would be in the first round at 14-18 in 2018.  That's only if he comes back at 100%.  He could come back and only get to 95%.  Just that little bit could be the difference between being a starting CB and a guy who is just one step behind.
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As to your first point, the bust rate for 1st-round draftees is typically around 50%. Yeah, we're taking a risk on his talent, but it's the same risk that every other team takes with every draft pick they make. So it's not an incremental risk.

Your second point makes a lot of sense, but I think that's the risk that's already factored into his draft stock. Obviously, if everyone knew he was going to come back at 100%, there's no way he'd have lasted until the mid-2nd.

A bigger concern I have is actually one that you didn't mention - that even if he does come back at 100%, you're not getting a 1st-rounder at a 2nd-round price. You're getting three years of a 1st-rounder instead of five - one lost to injury in whole or part, and one lost to the lack of a fifth-year option on 2nd-rounders. Given what good coverage CBs command in the FA market these days, that's a significant delta that we'd need to eat at exactly the time we'll probably be trying to shoehorn Wentz's new $25M a year salary under the cap.

 
Mr. Irrelevant said:
As to your first point, the bust rate for 1st-round draftees is typically around 50%. Yeah, we're taking a risk on his talent, but it's the same risk that every other team takes with every draft pick they make. So it's not an incremental risk.

Your second point makes a lot of sense, but I think that's the risk that's already factored into his draft stock. Obviously, if everyone knew he was going to come back at 100%, there's no way he'd have lasted until the mid-2nd.

A bigger concern I have is actually one that you didn't mention - that even if he does come back at 100%, you're not getting a 1st-rounder at a 2nd-round price. You're getting three years of a 1st-rounder instead of five - one lost to injury in whole or part, and one lost to the lack of a fifth-year option on 2nd-rounders. Given what good coverage CBs command in the FA market these days, that's a significant delta that we'd need to eat at exactly the time we'll probably be trying to shoehorn Wentz's new $25M a year salary under the cap.
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To your last point, if he doesn't play at all this year, or in only 6 games I think, then he doesn't accrue a year, so at the end of his contract he would be a RFA instead of a UFA.  So if they slow play him until he's completely healthy, they would control his rights at the end of his rookie deal.

 
Jones in the third or fourth would have been money.  Fabian Moreau in the third or fourth would have been money. 

Jones in the second.....little less money.  

I'm not worried that he's not going to come back.....I just wonder if they could have moved back/gotten him later.  Do analysists think the Eagles blew their wad too early on this guy....or would he have been gone in the second?

 
There really wasn't a lot of the moving up or down that we're accustomed to from Howie. This leads me to believe Joe Douglas had some authority in saying to stay put and take who comes to them. 

 
Skoo said:
Was Smallwood really that bad last year?

I remember them playing the stupid RB carousel every game, randomly giving Sproles a ton of goal line touches. But I thought Wendell looked pretty good when he got the chance. Nothing special, but certainly not terrible.
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Bigboy10182000 said:
He looked really good at times IMO. If he can add 10 pounds and do better with pass protection he could be the starter. His injuries seemed flukey as well. 
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I think we just get him to change his name to "Bigwood" and problem solved.

 
Thunderlips said:
Jones in the third or fourth would have been money.  Fabian Moreau in the third or fourth would have been money. 

Jones in the second.....little less money.  

I'm not worried that he's not going to come back.....I just wonder if they could have moved back/gotten him later.  Do analysists think the Eagles blew their wad too early on this guy....or would he have been gone in the second?
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If they wanted him they had to take him there imo

 
Is kelce for Ingram a balanced deal?  Doesn't really sound like one to me.  Wonder what else we would have to throw in.  A late pick?

 
mquinnjr said:
I mean, I'd offer it. If a 6th/7th was incremental for the Saints to agree, I'd come up to it.
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my thinking is the saints actually do still value mark ingram.  on the surface it doesnt seem like it.   but they had to replace hightower and cadet.  thats why AP and kamara are there.  they still view ingram as their best rb.  i would be surprised if they traded him for a center.

 
need2know said:
my thinking is the saints actually do still value mark ingram.  on the surface it doesnt seem like it.   but they had to replace hightower and cadet.  thats why AP and kamara are there.  they still view ingram as their best rb.  i would be surprised if they traded him for a center.
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I think I agree, but I do feel that the Saints have a really odd, sadistic way of showing their Ingram love. From the outside looking in, it feels like Payton and Loomis thoughts are something to the effect of, "Hightower, go do all the TD work. Hightower and Cadet gone? Let's get a HoF RB on the tail end of his career that might still have some tread left, and trade up for Mark's eventual replacement. We'll challenge Mark to do his best."

 
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mquinnjr said:
I think I agree, but I do feel that the Saints have a really odd, sadistic way of showing their Ingram love. From the outside looking in, it feels like Payton and Loomis thoughts are something to the effect of, "Hightower, go do all the TD work. Hightower and Cadet gone? Let's get a HoF RB on the tail end of his career that might still have some tread left, and trade up for Mark's eventual replacement. We'll challenge Mark to do his best."
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oh you dont have to tell me.  i know all about mark ingram.  i have had to endure him on my teams the past couple years.  brutal.  no more of that for me.  i hope he gets to leave.  it must drive him insane

 
need2know said:
oh you dont have to tell me.  i know all about mark ingram.  i have had to endure him on my teams the past couple years.  brutal.  no more of that for me.  i hope he gets to leave.  it must drive him insane
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Yep, if I'm Howie at the very least I'm kicking the tires with the Saints, worst that can happen is nothing.

 
need2know said:
my thinking is the saints actually do still value mark ingram.  on the surface it doesnt seem like it.   but they had to replace hightower and cadet.  thats why AP and kamara are there.  they still view ingram as their best rb.  i would be surprised if they traded him for a center.
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We are talking about a team that traded its best TE (one of the NFL's best in fact) for a center.  So who knows what the Saints might be thinking (or not)...

 
The Noid said:
Saints center injured.

Not quite a Teddy Bridgewater situation, but there could be a good trade partner match here...
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I know everyone wants to jump right to the Kelce-for-Ingram fantasy trade, but I think the more realistic expectation is a 4th rounder, maybe 3rd rounder if they are desperate. 

 
The Noid said:
I know everyone wants to jump right to the Kelce-for-Ingram fantasy trade, but I think the more realistic expectation is a 4th rounder, maybe 3rd rounder if they are desperate. 
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I don't know any of the #'s but what the Saints did by adding Peterson and drafting Kamara sounds more like they'll cut him. If I were Ingram I don't even know that I'd show up for any camps. 

 
NO Saints lost C Max Unger for at the very least first half of the year after he was injured early monday. There was speculation they could be in discussions with Eagles to acquire Jason Kelce. Kyle Scott of crossing Broad who's broken a few Eagles Stories this offseason has reported told from a source Eagles are discussing dealing Jason Kelce to NO for RB Mark Ingram. discussions are still in the very early stages. Ingram is 27 and has this and next on his deal. This would be a great trade for the Eagles. 

 
Five months doesn't equate to half the season.  That means if they don't put him on the PUP, he might miss 4 games.  Don't get your hopes up.  They don't even know what they have in Peterson.

 
Deamon said:
It would take surprisingly less than you think to get him.  Kelce + a 4th I think gets it done.  There's saints writers who are hoping for a straight up swap with no picks, so not sure what you're rolling around laughing at.
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Laughing at you thinking that's going to net him.  It makes zero sense for the Saints to trade him, especially for that crap when Unger will be back.  Just wishful thinking on your part.  I'm not thinking they're getting a first or anything like that, but they need Ingram more than Kelce and the pick.  As a follower of Saints boards, I've yet to see any Saints writers suggesting that.

 
DJackson10 said:
NO Saints lost C Max Unger for at the very least first half of the year after he was injured early monday. There was speculation they could be in discussions with Eagles to acquire Jason Kelce. Kyle Scott of crossing Broad who's broken a few Eagles Stories this offseason has reported told from a source Eagles are discussing dealing Jason Kelce to NO for RB Mark Ingram. discussions are still in the very early stages. Ingram is 27 and has this and next on his deal. This would be a great trade for the Eagles. 
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Hope you are the right.  If we bring Ingram here this is one of the best off seasons i have ever seen

 
SproutDaddy said:
Laughing at you thinking that's going to net him.  It makes zero sense for the Saints to trade him, especially for that crap when Unger will be back.  Just wishful thinking on your part.  I'm not thinking they're getting a first or anything like that, but they need Ingram more than Kelce and the pick.  As a follower of Saints boards, I've yet to see any Saints writers suggesting that.
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I think you're both underestimating the value NFL personnel attach to draft capital and overestimating the value the Saints attach to Ingram. Remember that Brandon Marshall only fetched a 5th-rounder two offseasons ago, and he's twice the difference-maker Ingram is.

And if Payton valued Ingram as a workhorse back, he'd be using him like a workhorse back. Nothing in the Saints' play-calling the past few years has lent credence to that point of view.

If Ingram does get moved, whether to Philly or elsewhere, I think you'll be personally disappointed at what he brings back in return.

 
SproutDaddy said:
Laughing at you thinking that's going to net him.  It makes zero sense for the Saints to trade him, especially for that crap when Unger will be back.  Just wishful thinking on your part.  I'm not thinking they're getting a first or anything like that, but they need Ingram more than Kelce and the pick.  As a follower of Saints boards, I've yet to see any Saints writers suggesting that.
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I don't know what he'll go for or what. Since you're a Saints fan, can you say if Ingram appears happy in N.O.  I don't pay any attention to the team but given the way they use him and now adding Peterson, is he now a candidate to be cut or not show up?

TIA

 
Bigboy10182000 said:
I don't know what he'll go for or what. Since you're a Saints fan, can you say if Ingram appears happy in N.O.  I don't pay any attention to the team but given the way they use him and now adding Peterson, is he now a candidate to be cut or not show up?

TIA
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The Peterson addition is one thing. He's at the tail end of his career. The high pick on Kamara is what should set off the red flags for Ingram. As fantasy owners, we all look at the situation and say Ingram is still the clear best back there. Why then add 2 significant moves to the position when there are so many other needs on that team? Payton never liked Ingram for some reason.

 
SproutDaddy said:
Laughing at you thinking that's going to net him.  It makes zero sense for the Saints to trade him, especially for that crap when Unger will be back.  Just wishful thinking on your part.  I'm not thinking they're getting a first or anything like that, but they need Ingram more than Kelce and the pick.  As a follower of Saints boards, I've yet to see any Saints writers suggesting that.
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If he's that valuable, why would Payton under utilize him in games, and Loomis go out and sign AP and trade up for Kamara, who I assume will be the long-term option? I'm not a Saints insider but something doesn't add up, that's a lot of capital tied up in the RB position if the Saints value Ingram into their 3 or so year plans.

 
Payton repeatedly put TIM HIGHTOWER on the field over Ingram last year.

Pretty clear how he feels about Ingram.

 
SproutDaddy said:
Laughing at you thinking that's going to net him.  It makes zero sense for the Saints to trade him, especially for that crap when Unger will be back.  Just wishful thinking on your part.  I'm not thinking they're getting a first or anything like that, but they need Ingram more than Kelce and the pick.  As a follower of Saints boards, I've yet to see any Saints writers suggesting that.
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It's really not. RB isn't valued as highly in the NFL anymore. This isn't Fantasy football PPR dynasty or keeper league where the guy could fetch you a top 3 rounder depending who it is. You are gonna be massively disappointed in the return if and when Ingram gets traded. I mean you guys basically gave us Sproles for free and traded a top 3 TE for a Dam C. I wouldn't be surprised if we could snatch Ingram for less. 

 
Skoo said:
Payton repeatedly put TIM HIGHTOWER on the field over Ingram last year.

Pretty clear how he feels about Ingram.
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Says a lot. We all remember Shady being held out of possessions by Chip and then that offseason he was gone. I think Hightower over Ingram is a clear indicator. 

 
Skoo said:
Payton repeatedly put TIM HIGHTOWER on the field over Ingram last year.

Pretty clear how he feels about Ingram.
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I was at that game......against Seattle.  Ingram fumbled in the red zone.  That's why Hightower was put in.  Ingram had recently been struggling with this.

 
DJackson10 said:
It's really not. RB isn't valued as highly in the NFL anymore. This isn't Fantasy football PPR dynasty or keeper league where the guy could fetch you a top 3 rounder depending who it is. You are gonna be massively disappointed in the return if and when Ingram gets traded. I mean you guys basically gave us Sproles for free and traded a top 3 TE for a Dam C. I wouldn't be surprised if we could snatch Ingram for less. 
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Sproles was a salary cap issue.  I understand that the Saints have no idea what they have in a 32 year old Peterson.   Mark is still the lead back.  It would make no sense for the team to trade him for a backup center and low round pick.  I understand the wishful thinking, but that's all it is.

 
SproutDaddy said:
Sproles was a salary cap issue.  I understand that the Saints have no idea what they have in a 32 year old Peterson.   Mark is still the lead back.  It would make no sense for the team to trade him for a backup center and low round pick.  I understand the wishful thinking, but that's all it is.
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It's also wishful thinking to say that Ingram is a part of this teams future... or even near future.  Or that Payton likes him and will use him as much as he should this year.

With Unger back sooner than expected the trade may not happen.  But don't be surprised if they still shop Ingram or at least phase him out this season.

 
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