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Official 2019 Oakland (?) Raiders Thread (1 Viewer)

Sarlakticacid said:


https://sports.yahoo.com/gruden-nfl-apologized-blown-call-raiders-loss-233926049--nfl.html

Gruden said he got an apology call from NFL officiating chief Al Riveron, but was frustrated nothing could have been done at the time to rectify the mistake after seeing other calls this year get changed in New York.

''Why don't you stop the game and get the clock right? I don't think it was even close,'' Gruden said. ''So, I'm not happy about it. Apologies are great, but this is 2020, we've been in enough meetings and I'm disgusted by it.''
So I am certainly biased -- every fan is going to complain the refs are always blowing calls that should have gone their way.

But truly honest question, has there been a team that's been more visibly screwed by the refs than the Raiders?

  • Immaculate Deception, as Frenchy touched it first.
  • 1977 AFC Championship Game vs Broncos -- Rob Lytle fumbles but it remains a called TD
  • Louis Murphy catches an uncharacteristically fantastic pass from JaWalrus, and is inexplicably called back
  • Tuck Rule. NFL changes the rule it was such a bad call
  • Using a bloody index card to determine first down
  • This nonsense, capping a year full of nonsense -- inexplicable laundry, phantom holds, at least two roughing the passers when the tackler visibly was making every effort to fall on himself not the QB....
It's not terrible when you win, like we did in 2016 against the Bucs when we set the single game record for penalties. But we haven't won a lot over the last two decades. 

By the way I am totally not averse to the Raiders drafting a QB -- regardless of how you feel about Carr, NFL teams always need a succession plan. But I'd argue that this year, with what seems to be such a thin QB class, I wouldn't be spending a high pick this year on one. 

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
So I am certainly biased -- every fan is going to complain the refs are always blowing calls that should have gone their way.

But truly honest question, has there been a team that's been more visibly screwed by the refs than the Raiders?

  • Immaculate Deception, as Frenchy touched it first.
  • 1977 AFC Championship Game vs Broncos -- Rob Lytle fumbles but it remains a called TD
  • Louis Murphy catches an uncharacteristically fantastic pass from JaWalrus, and is inexplicably called back
  • Tuck Rule. NFL changes the rule it was such a bad call
  • Using a bloody index card to determine first down
  • This nonsense, capping a year full of nonsense -- inexplicable laundry, phantom holds, at least two roughing the passers when the tackler visibly was making every effort to fall on himself not the QB....
It's not terrible when you win, like we did in 2016 against the Bucs when we set the single game record for penalties. But we haven't won a lot over the last two decades. 

By the way I am totally not averse to the Raiders drafting a QB -- regardless of how you feel about Carr, NFL teams always need a succession plan. But I'd argue that this year, with what seems to be such a thin QB class, I wouldn't be spending a high pick this year on one. 
I really do not think there is a team in pro sports that gets the shaft on calls like the Raiders have through it's history. I think it is the reputation we built over the years with players that were not adverse to trying to get away with something that was a penalty. Some would say that the NFL encouraged it because of all of the issues with Al. But legacy wise, there is no doubt, we get the crap calls more than anyone else does. 

 

Chaka

Footballguy
On the bright side.... the Bears lost too so both of our 1st round pick positions improved. Looking for that true #1 WR and either playmaking LB or top tier CB for those two 1st rounders. Then from there on pretty much almost all D BPA with maybe an offensive player or two that are just too good of value for where we are picking. Another rookie class like this from Mayock/Gruden brain trust and we are a playoff team for sure.... oh, and keep them healthy. 

Though we aren't technically out of the running for playoffs this year, it is going to take a whole lot of breaks to go our way that is less than likely. Let's talk next year roster...

2020 current liabilities $149,521,878 projected cap $200,000,000

Projected FA: 

Jalen Richard

Daryl Worley

Karl Joseph

Vontaze Burfict

Mike Glennon

Nevin Lawson

Denzelle Good

Dwayne Harris

Josh Mauro

Kyle Wilber

Benson Mayowa

Richie Incognito

Isaiah Crowell

Jordan Devey

Curtis Riley

Rod Smith

Will Compton

Dion Jordan

Keelan Doss

Eric Tomlinson

Olsen Pierre

DeAndre Washington

Nathan Peterman

David Sharpe

Makinton Dorleant

Cameron Hunt

Nick Nelson

Daniel Carlson

Trent Sieg

Nicholas Morrow

D.J. Killings

Rico Gafford

Dallin Leavitt

I believe we currently have the 13th and 18th first round picks. 
Not a single guy on that list that I think is important to retain.

Some definite maybes in Joseph (hoping he can stay healthy), Richard &/or DeAndre (RBs are cheap enough and they have looked good), Carlson? Incognito? Do we think Lawson has upside?

But really, none of those guys isn't easily replaceable.

 

Chaka

Footballguy
Tell you what though, Trent Brown looks like a better signing with every week he misses. The line has been really shaky without him.

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
As many feared, this appears to be a QB purgatory situation.  Not bad enough for a good shot at a QB prospect, but also not good enough to get into the playoffs. 

This offseason is the first out opportunity in the Carr contract if in not mistaken, but he might be a player they could trade to the Bears or a team who feels like they only average QB play away from a contender. 

The frustrating thing is that the Raiders not really being a team who is ready to compete this year was very predictable.  It seemed like they didn't have the discipline to carry the rebuild they committed to all the way through.  Now it seems like they will have to stick with Carr and be 7 and 9 again next year.  
The discipline? Huh? I don't even know what you are talking about. 

Seriously- let's look at this year. Screw the record. I am talking about let's look at what we know. We started off the year swinging for the fences with trying to get AB on board. Sure, he was not a model citizen in Pittsburgh but dang, who could have called what happened? If we had AB minus the head case, I think just that alone we would be looking at a whole different year. That top tier WR like that opens everything up. Tyrell Williams could do damage. Waller would create huge mismatch issues that would be hard to deal with for any team when you would have to spend so much attention on AB. Jacobs would have even more room to run as well. That one lost move really put us back offensively. 

Mayock did an outstanding job in his first draft. I was a little worried about him 'managing' the draft but he did very well with that. I was not worried about his eye for talent and I was proven right about that. Most would agree with me the best rookie class of the year. 

Ferrell- Solid all around DE if not sexy. He has improved as the year has gone on and I see room for continued improvement with him. He is a stud against the run and his pass rush is likely under valued with many fans because he doesn't have the sack totals which morons who don't know football or are too lazy to do a decent analysis of a player and just look at the sack totals will boooo him. 

Jacobs- Everyone, even idiots, can see Jacobs is a stud. The dude is a great all around back with really lacking in one area (Pass Pro) which I know he is committed to working on because he doesn't want to come off the field. How bad does he not want to come off the field? He plays with a shoulder injury and still doesn't change how he makes contact with defenders. He has all the speed and moves of a smaller back but plays like a big back too. I love this kid. 

Abram- We didn't even get a full game out of him but that first full game showed up a whole lot. He does seem like the kind of safety that can do it all and is a playmaker. It is too early to tell but a Troy Polamalu type of safety may just be what we have in Abram. 

Mullen- Gruden/Mayock had enough faith in him to trade Conley to Texans mid year. Corner for a rookie is hard and Mullen is getting the reps. I have seen improvement over the year as he has got those reps. There is a good chance that he is a solid NFL CB but we need to see more and really want to see his sophomore year to have a better grasp of whether he is or is not. 

Crosby- The kid has exploded. What's his face from the NFL network did a reranking of the rookie class and has him 5th overall out of all rookies (Jacobs is 2). 8.5 sacks so far. And the thing that impresses me the most is that this kid is raw. I don't see a whole lot of technique on these sacks but just naked force, energy and willpower. As he gets coached up more and more and is able to add more moves, he really can be an elite pass rusher in this league. 

Johnson- Much like Mullen, he is getting the snaps now after being out for most of the season as a rookie in a hard to be in position for a rookie and it will take some time for us to really know if he is going to be a reliable NFL CB or not. Some flashes but some mistakes. Just like you expect with a rookie that missed a lot of time. 

Moreau- If not for Waller, Foster may be the big break out TE this year but even in his supporting cast position behind Waller he has shined as a rookie. It was a blow for him to be out for the rest of the season but we can do some damage next year with two TE sets for sure. 

Renfrow- a fifth round gem. He sure as heck doesn't look like an NFL WR. Hell, he doesn't look like a college WR but somehow, someway he makes it work. I don't know how. I don't really get it. But what I did get was seeing his improvement as the season went on. I could see the game was slowing down for him until he ended out for the season. 

Bell- Cut, the fate of many 7th rounders. 

Rookie FA's

Doss- Hard knocks favorite. Hasn't seen the field much even though we brought him back and we are not very deep WR wise. 

Cole-  Serviceable punter. 

Ingold- He should have been named to the Pro Bowl as a FB. 

James- Hasn't seen the field I think at all. OL depth. 

Nixon- Our other rookie CB. Let's see how he develops. 

We have a lot of key players out: Abram, Crowell, Harris, Joseph, Key, Moreau, Burfict, Renfrow and more who have missed more than a couple of games. 

We have the two mid round (at least) 1st round picks to play with. 5 total in the top 100. 

We have cash to sign FA's and the sexy new stadium with the sexy no state income tax in a sexy city. FA will be coming to us asking for us to sign them. 

We have an offense that is pretty much set, needing only a true #1 WR. 

We are a very young team. I think second or third youngest. Out of our key players only Incognito is at an age where we know his days are limited. After that Hudson, Joyner and Burfict are veterans but still having plenty in the tank. 

We are technically still in the playoff hunt. It sucks to have taken the last few losses and even more so after getting the high of winning some games but I see nothing but positives out of this year. This is a rebuild with clear progress and clear future progression. 

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
Tell you what though, Trent Brown looks like a better signing with every week he misses. The line has been really shaky without him.
Poor Parker. He was overmatched against the Jags. Trent Brown, is, I believe, our highest paid player now (based on one year not full contract). And worth every penny. I don't care that we put him on the right and he is getting paid elite left tackle money. The dude makes a difference. 

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
Not a single guy on that list that I think is important to retain.

Some definite maybes in Joseph (hoping he can stay healthy), Richard &/or DeAndre (RBs are cheap enough and they have looked good), Carlson? Incognito? Do we think Lawson has upside?

But really, none of those guys isn't easily replaceable.
Dude... go run a mile or two and get your piss and vinegar out and come back later. 

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
Rest easy and enjoy the meds, @Chadstroma -- kidney stones ain't fun. Be well.
Second time around and it sucks. The worst part is that they saw another one in my freaking kidney on deck. 

I really don't get the meds thing. I got some morphine for the first time. I got some other stuff that people are like "that's the good stuff".... they make me drowsy mostly. The only good thing is that they help with the physical pain. I really don't understand how people get hooked on them addictively. I guess that is a good thing. 

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
Who on that list is indispensable? I don't follow special teams closely, any of those guys top notch?
Indispensable? That is your starting point? Seriously now. That isn't how you build a roster. You know that. You are just grumpy. And if there is anyone that should be grumpy it should be me with an ailing back, kidney stones and a minor each infection. 

 

Chaka

Footballguy
Indispensable? That is your starting point? Seriously now. That isn't how you build a roster. You know that. You are just grumpy. And if there is anyone that should be grumpy it should be me with an ailing back, kidney stones and a minor each infection. 
Sorry about the kidney stone, never been there but I saw Al Swearengen deal with one and...#### that noise. Good luck.

But give me names from that list that we need to retain because we can't find multiple guys of their caliber to replace them? 

I get that many of them know the system etc. but, who cares? Beyond Carr performing above career levels the coaching staff has been disappointing as well. Second half scoring and defense have been among the worst in the league. Coaching needs to improve so it really doesn't matter what these guys know about the system.

And I'm not grumpy in the least, the hemorrhoid banding procedure I had last week seems to have worked really well, I'm popping better than I have in years. I had almost forgotten what it was like to poop without pain, totally worth having to deal with...very difficult things for this result so I'm in a great mood. 

But our FA list is pretty uninspiring.

 

Sarlakticacid

Footballguy
So I am certainly biased -- every fan is going to complain the refs are always blowing calls that should have gone their way.

But truly honest question, has there been a team that's been more visibly screwed by the refs than the Raiders?

  • Immaculate Deception, as Frenchy touched it first.
  • 1977 AFC Championship Game vs Broncos -- Rob Lytle fumbles but it remains a called TD
  • Louis Murphy catches an uncharacteristically fantastic pass from JaWalrus, and is inexplicably called back
  • Tuck Rule. NFL changes the rule it was such a bad call
  • Using a bloody index card to determine first down
  • This nonsense, capping a year full of nonsense -- inexplicable laundry, phantom holds, at least two roughing the passers when the tackler visibly was making every effort to fall on himself not the QB....
It's not terrible when you win, like we did in 2016 against the Bucs when we set the single game record for penalties. But we haven't won a lot over the last two decades. 

By the way I am totally not averse to the Raiders drafting a QB -- regardless of how you feel about Carr, NFL teams always need a succession plan. But I'd argue that this year, with what seems to be such a thin QB class, I wouldn't be spending a high pick this year on one. 
To me this call especially was a big F you to all the fans of Oakland from the ref and most importantly the league. The outcome of the game did not change much at all standings wise

 
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Of the free agents listed, if Incognito can retain the form he had this year I think he is a full-on priority. He was fantastic this year. It's a big if given his age, but I'd pay for him in a second over Burfict -- who, btw, if he can also play at the level he did this year, is worth keeping around IMO.

Karl Joseph is a little variable but he is above average, young, and worth exploring. I think he might be carrying some more name brand in a position of need in the NFL so can see him leaving for a bigger pay day elsewhere. But I wouldn't mind resigning him and seeing what our secondary looks like when playing together with full-on health.

Mauro and Mayowa earned a spot this year. I doubt they would be expensive to retain. 

Dwayne Harris is sound but not spectacular and flashed for us last year, and I can see him being retained for special teams, but is ultimately dispensable.

I can see us letting Richard walk and keeping either Washington or Crowell, maybe both if we can swing it. Crowell might be more interesting given that he's a bruiser and brings a different kind of game to the table than we have. Washington ran well this year in relief and earned a slot.

We'll keep Peterman and let Glennon go, I bet. 

And we should shed Carlson, he's a rag.

The rest are fodder.

 

ICON211

Footballguy
So I am certainly biased -- every fan is going to complain the refs are always blowing calls that should have gone their way.

But truly honest question, has there been a team that's been more visibly screwed by the refs than the Raiders?

  • Immaculate Deception, as Frenchy touched it first.
  • 1977 AFC Championship Game vs Broncos -- Rob Lytle fumbles but it remains a called TD
  • Louis Murphy catches an uncharacteristically fantastic pass from JaWalrus, and is inexplicably called back
  • Tuck Rule. NFL changes the rule it was such a bad call
  • Using a bloody index card to determine first down
  • This nonsense, capping a year full of nonsense -- inexplicable laundry, phantom holds, at least two roughing the passers when the tackler visibly was making every effort to fall on himself not the QB....
It's not terrible when you win, like we did in 2016 against the Bucs when we set the single game record for penalties. But we haven't won a lot over the last two decades. 

By the way I am totally not averse to the Raiders drafting a QB -- regardless of how you feel about Carr, NFL teams always need a succession plan. But I'd argue that this year, with what seems to be such a thin QB class, I wouldn't be spending a high pick this year on one. 
Def hosed by the refs worse than any other team.  How about the game vs KC this year?  Panalties: Raiders 12 Chiefs 0.  Even Romo said something at the end of the game that it seemed ridiculous.

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
Of the free agents listed, if Incognito can retain the form he had this year I think he is a full-on priority. He was fantastic this year. It's a big if given his age, but I'd pay for him in a second over Burfict -- who, btw, if he can also play at the level he did this year, is worth keeping around IMO.

Karl Joseph is a little variable but he is above average, young, and worth exploring. I think he might be carrying some more name brand in a position of need in the NFL so can see him leaving for a bigger pay day elsewhere. But I wouldn't mind resigning him and seeing what our secondary looks like when playing together with full-on health.

Mauro and Mayowa earned a spot this year. I doubt they would be expensive to retain. 

Dwayne Harris is sound but not spectacular and flashed for us last year, and I can see him being retained for special teams, but is ultimately dispensable.

I can see us letting Richard walk and keeping either Washington or Crowell, maybe both if we can swing it. Crowell might be more interesting given that he's a bruiser and brings a different kind of game to the table than we have. Washington ran well this year in relief and earned a slot.

We'll keep Peterman and let Glennon go, I bet. 

And we should shed Carlson, he's a rag.

The rest are fodder.
Pretty close to my thinking. I don't think you start at 'indispensable' because really every team has 1-3 maybe at the most of those guys. It is all about priority. 

Incognito has been solid and a great addition (another good move by Mayock/Gruden) but his age is a big concern. Perhaps his time off goes in his favor on that. I don't recall him having any major injuries over his career as well. Bringing him back and keep continuity in what is a formidable offensive line when all are in and healthy is a priority... as long as the brain trust believes he can hold up. That being said, there wasn't a huge drop off when Incognito was not in. I believe it was Good that was playing in his spot when he was out? We just have to keep an eye on the fuel tank and decide from there because he proved he can be mentally stable and a contributor. 

I think we bring Burfict back. I know a lot of people don't like him because of his 'cheap' hits and all but the guy is a veteran which we have a distinct lack of on the defense and assuming we bring Guenther back, knows the D better than anyone other than Guenther. I see him as a priority as well. 

I like the idea of keeping Joseph if we can. Joseph/Abram in the safety spots with Joyner as the nickel/safety is something I like.  I don't want to over spend on him so if he is inclined to get a bigger payday than we are willing to give, I am ok with him going. But remember, he will get a extra pay increase with less taxes by staying with us next year, so there is an advantage for us. How much more is someone out there willing to pay? 

Mayowa has certainly earned a spot. He is a good rotational pass rusher. There may be some angst there though in that he has not been extended. There was some rumblings about that. I am good with keeping Mauro but also would like to keep Jordan. He has shown enough and I think his pedigree gives hope he can further blossom as it appears he has his act together now... I am honestly not sure who I would rather have, Jordan or Key. 

Harris is worth keeping but wouldn't be the end of the world if we didn't. 

After Jacobs the RB position gets interesting. Crowell is the bigger back over Richard and Washington. On the use during the games, Richard is the 3rd down and obvious passing situation back and hasn't got in the game much otherwise. Washington spells Crowell for regular downs. Richard and Washington have done well in their roles but are close to being redundant with pretty close the same skillset. I think the direction they go really depends on the development of Jacobs in pass pro. If they feel comfortable with him then I think Richard is let go and we roll with Jacobs, Crowell and Washington. If not then, I think Washington is let go and Richard remains in his position with Crowell as change of pace and short yardage guy (assuming he looks good coming back from injury).

Agreed on Glennon. He just seemed so... blah during camp and pre-season. I think Peterman is all about confidence. He lost it. Understandably. You could see it during Hard Knocks. He can throw and he has legs. I have no idea how the development of Kizer has gone. I loved the kid coming out of ND so if he was kept and Peterman was gone, I would not flinch. 

To bring back for a chance to fight for a roster spot I think Worley, Lawson, Good, Compton, Doss, Sharpe, Nelson, and Gafford. Let it be decided in camp. 

 

Stinkin Ref

IBL Representative
Def hosed by the refs worse than any other team.  How about the game vs KC this year?  Panalties: Raiders 12 Chiefs 0.  Even Romo said something at the end of the game that it seemed ridiculous.
were they just supposed to call something on KC to make it look better?.....kind of like the foul count in basketball....let's just make something up to get that zero off the scoreboard...?....the epitome of whining/excuses IMO.....questioning the integrity of the refs and insinuating that the refs are out to screw somebody for some magical reason...sometimes one team is just better than another on a given day and make less mistakes....it happens......every team could look back at some game at some point over the years and trot out this excuse....

 

ICON211

Footballguy
were they just supposed to call something on KC to make it look better?.....kind of like the foul count in basketball....let's just make something up to get that zero off the scoreboard...?....the epitome of whining/excuses IMO.....questioning the integrity of the refs and insinuating that the refs are out to screw somebody for some magical reason...sometimes one team is just better than another on a given day and make less mistakes....it happens......every team could look back at some game at some point over the years and trot out this excuse....
Part of it is reputation and that's not a magical reason.  Some of it could simply be bad luck.  The NFL also had a problem with Al Davis for many years.  There was a play late in that game where a personal foul should have been called on a Chiefs player, but instead it was called on the Raiders.  I don't care if it sounds like whining.  The Raiders get called for things that they let go on other teams.  And the tuck rule was never interpreted that way before that game and even after I saw many plays where it wasn't applied that way to the point where they changed the wording of the rule.

 
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G-King

Footballguy
So I am certainly biased -- every fan is going to complain the refs are always blowing calls that should have gone their way.

But truly honest question, has there been a team that's been more visibly screwed by the refs than the Raiders?

  • Immaculate Deception, as Frenchy touched it first.
  • 1977 AFC Championship Game vs Broncos -- Rob Lytle fumbles but it remains a called TD
  • Louis Murphy catches an uncharacteristically fantastic pass from JaWalrus, and is inexplicably called back
  • Tuck Rule. NFL changes the rule it was such a bad call
  • Using a bloody index card to determine first down
  • This nonsense, capping a year full of nonsense -- inexplicable laundry, phantom holds, at least two roughing the passers when the tackler visibly was making every effort to fall on himself not the QB....
It's not terrible when you win, like we did in 2016 against the Bucs when we set the single game record for penalties. But we haven't won a lot over the last two decades. 

By the way I am totally not averse to the Raiders drafting a QB -- regardless of how you feel about Carr, NFL teams always need a succession plan. But I'd argue that this year, with what seems to be such a thin QB class, I wouldn't be spending a high pick this year on one. 
Have you ever been in an Eagles game thread? 😂 Every. Other. Post.

 
Am I crazy for slotting in DeAndre Washington over Chark (may still be hampered) and Golladay (hampered by bad match up and qb)?

State of the o line worries me and LAC has a pretty stout run d.

 

Ed Wood

Footballguy
If I don't get back on the board before the blessed day, Merry Christmas to one and all! Some lumps of coal for Raider fans this year but definitely some diamonds too.

I really didn't think Gruden would be 10-20 at this point in his tenure but maybe I'm not recalling how bad they were when he took over. 🙂 Anyway, despite the record, I'd say he's definitely got things going in the right direction. Hopefully him and Mayock can strike gold again in this critically important draft and in the years going forward. By all appearances they make a great team.

 

Chaka

Footballguy
If I don't get back on the board before the blessed day, Merry Christmas to one and all! Some lumps of coal for Raider fans this year but definitely some diamonds too.

I really didn't think Gruden would be 10-20 at this point in his tenure but maybe I'm not recalling how bad they were when he took over. 🙂 Anyway, despite the record, I'd say he's definitely got things going in the right direction. Hopefully him and Mayock can strike gold again in this critically important draft and in the years going forward. By all appearances they make a great team.
I like what Mayock has been doing but I'm still bearish on Gruden.  I was worried when he was hired that the game may have passed him by and I'm not entirely convinced that it hasn't.

I love how he has improved Carr's game and I like the direction he is moving with a mauling O-line (btw Trent Brown's absence is a very strong indicator of how valuable he really is) and strong run game. And it is difficult to judge completely with all of the injuries.

However, what the hell is happening in the second half of games? I put the complete collapse of both the offense and defense in 2nd halves for most of the season 100%, completely, wholly, entirely (ad infinitum) on the coaching staff. Injuries aren't an excuse between 1st/2nd half performance. You gotta be able to make in game adjustments and it simply isn't happening. Particularly over the last 5 games or so.

 

raidergil

Footballguy
I like what Mayock has been doing but I'm still bearish on Gruden.  I was worried when he was hired that the game may have passed him by and I'm not entirely convinced that it hasn't.

I love how he has improved Carr's game and I like the direction he is moving with a mauling O-line (btw Trent Brown's absence is a very strong indicator of how valuable he really is) and strong run game. And it is difficult to judge completely with all of the injuries.

However, what the hell is happening in the second half of games? I put the complete collapse of both the offense and defense in 2nd halves for most of the season 100%, completely, wholly, entirely (ad infinitum) on the coaching staff. Injuries aren't an excuse between 1st/2nd half performance. You gotta be able to make in game adjustments and it simply isn't happening. Particularly over the last 5 games or so.
Looks like Gruden made a point of that coming out of half. Great drive there & ALOT of running! May have been a challenge in locker room.

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
I like what Mayock has been doing but I'm still bearish on Gruden.  I was worried when he was hired that the game may have passed him by and I'm not entirely convinced that it hasn't.

I love how he has improved Carr's game and I like the direction he is moving with a mauling O-line (btw Trent Brown's absence is a very strong indicator of how valuable he really is) and strong run game. And it is difficult to judge completely with all of the injuries.

However, what the hell is happening in the second half of games? I put the complete collapse of both the offense and defense in 2nd halves for most of the season 100%, completely, wholly, entirely (ad infinitum) on the coaching staff. Injuries aren't an excuse between 1st/2nd half performance. You gotta be able to make in game adjustments and it simply isn't happening. Particularly over the last 5 games or so.
Ridiculous. 

Gruden has shown he is a damn good coach and the game hasn't passed him by. 

It almost seems like you are not even watching the games and then commenting. We have a very young team and the collapses haven't been about being outcoached in the 2nd half but momentum shifts and this young team not knowing how to break out of that. I think it is more than being young it is being that this team has been in the games largely by playing with their heart fully in the game (yea, you can give Gruden credit for that) but then when we get a BS call or make a bad play or the other team makes a good play (and you can rank it in that order in terms what has happened) this team loses that edge of playing full out with their everything in it and then another bad call or mistake or good play by the other team and then they break. That isn't uncommon with young teams. 

 

Chaka

Footballguy
Looks like Gruden made a point of that coming out of half. Great drive there & ALOT of running! May have been a challenge in locker room.
Yup and it was nice.  But it's still the first second half TD in the last eight games.

Ridiculous. 

Gruden has shown he is a damn good coach and the game hasn't passed him by. 

It almost seems like you are not even watching the games and then commenting. We have a very young team and the collapses haven't been about being outcoached in the 2nd half but momentum shifts and this young team not knowing how to break out of that. I think it is more than being young it is being that this team has been in the games largely by playing with their heart fully in the game (yea, you can give Gruden credit for that) but then when we get a BS call or make a bad play or the other team makes a good play (and you can rank it in that order in terms what has happened) this team loses that edge of playing full out with their everything in it and then another bad call or mistake or good play by the other team and then they break. That isn't uncommon with young teams. 
I didn't say I think the game has definitely passed him by, I voiced it as a concern when he was initially hired and I think it is a fair concern. 

I have no problem giving Gruden credit for the team playing with heart, and I am giving him a lot of credit overall (I fully acknowledged many of the factors that could be misleading in judging his overall performance). But if you give him credit for when their heart is "fully in the game" maybe you should ask why their hearts are sometimes not.  And the bolded is perhaps the most important job of a coaching staff.  That's not on the young players to figure out, it's on the coaching staff to teach, berate, cajole (whatever is necessary) to get them to break out of it.

And I watch almost every game.

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
Hoping Mullen is ok.

Biggest thought was how hard Lawson fought to contest and broke up a lot of plays that very well could have been catches which would have swayed the ending for sure. 

More thoughts and reply to @Chaka later.

 

Chaka

Footballguy
Hoping Mullen is ok.

Biggest thought was how hard Lawson fought to contest and broke up a lot of plays that very well could have been catches which would have swayed the ending for sure. 

More thoughts and reply to @Chaka later.
I thought Lawson played a good game, for the most part, as well. 

Not sure if that means anything going forward though.

 

raidergil

Footballguy
Off the cuff (and under the influence), great response by Raiders after last week's let down. Unlike past teams, seems staff used that to drive them this week. No Jacobs so they went pass heavy in 1st half. Came out for 2nd half & seems like O was challenged due to past 2nd half collapses. The drive out of halftime was impressive pounding downfield with a backup RB & injured OL.

Carr takes a lot of cr*p in here but 215 yds at half & finished at 87% completion rate. Even if every pass were a drop off to a RB that’d still be phenomenal, but he mixed in TEs & WRs.  Renfroe is a nice addition. Give Carr a nice compliment of receivers and let’s see where he takes us!

 

Stinkin Ref

IBL Representative
will probably lose at DEN next week......Carr is not the answer.....can totally see them trading the farm for the #1......

 

DocHolliday

Footballguy
will probably lose at DEN next week......Carr is not the answer.....can totally see them trading the farm for the #1......
Carr is going to be debated for months.   What he lacks as a downfield passer, he makes up for with quality short and intermediate throws.    He's not the long term answer but he is probably the 2020 QB for the Raiders while the team is built.  I don't think there is a QB coming out that Gruden covets enough to move up to the 1 spot.   Hopefully, Gruden has been paying attention as early drafted QBs such as Tribusky and Mayfield struggle.   

With another Bears loss, the Raider's other draft selection in the first round has improved.   I still think the Raiders grab a WR with one of those first round picks and spend the rest of the draft going BPA filling holes on D.   

 
DocHolliday said:
Carr is going to be debated for months.   What he lacks as a downfield passer, he makes up for with quality short and intermediate throws.    He's not the long term answer but he is probably the 2020 QB for the Raiders while the team is built.  I don't think there is a QB coming out that Gruden covets enough to move up to the 1 spot.   Hopefully, Gruden has been paying attention as early drafted QBs such as Tribusky and Mayfield struggle.   

With another Bears loss, the Raider's other draft selection in the first round has improved.   I still think the Raiders grab a WR with one of those first round picks and spend the rest of the draft going BPA filling holes on D.   
I think this is a good balanced take. 

Problem is that most people want an elite QB, which are few and far between. Carr is definitely not an elite QB, but that bar unfairly overlooks how good Carr is compared to all NFL QBs.

Through WK 16 2019 (minimum 10 games and 200 attempts):

  • 2nd overall in completion percentage (71.1%)
  • 12th overall in yards (3663)
  • 16th overall in most TDs (20 -- just counting tiers, as many QBs are tied, he's really 11th overall)
  • 12th overall in least INTs (8 -- again, accounting for ties, he's really 6th).
  • 6th in yards/attempt (7.8)
  • 7th overall in QB rating (101.1)
  • 7th overall in QBR (65.5)
I stick with my call-out somewhere earlier in the thread that Carr is far from average, and more than not a QB you can build a franchise around -- you do not need an elite QB to win a ship.

 

FreshiZ

Footballguy
We beat Denver, Bal over Pitt, Hou over Ten, Indy over Jax and we're in the playoffs.

Not super far fetched imo but the question is what do Bal and Hou have to play for except they don't want to lose to a division rival? Still interesting.

Edit: really make that Jax loss sting now.

 
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ICON211

Footballguy
Stompin' Tom Connors said:
I think this is a good balanced take. 

Problem is that most people want an elite QB, which are few and far between. Carr is definitely not an elite QB, but that bar unfairly overlooks how good Carr is compared to all NFL QBs.

Through WK 16 2019 (minimum 10 games and 200 attempts):

  • 2nd overall in completion percentage (71.1%)
  • 12th overall in yards (3663)
  • 16th overall in most TDs (20 -- just counting tiers, as many QBs are tied, he's really 11th overall)
  • 12th overall in least INTs (8 -- again, accounting for ties, he's really 6th).
  • 6th in yards/attempt (7.8)
  • 7th overall in QB rating (101.1)
  • 7th overall in QBR (65.5)
I stick with my call-out somewhere earlier in the thread that Carr is far from average, and more than not a QB you can build a franchise around -- you do not need an elite QB to win a ship.
Fair takes on the situation.  Carr's stats all look ok to pretty good, but the Raiders are 24th in points per game at a shade under 20.  He does not make guys around him better and he does not pass the eye test as far as being a championship caliber QB when I watch the games, yet he is paid like he is an elite QB.  You don't need an elite QB to win a super bowl, but you need the rest of the team to be great in that situation.  That's harder to do when you have a QB that is paid $25 million per year, but does not play to that level.

As far as draft eligible QBs, the more I think about it the more I think Jalen Hurts might be a good fit for Gruden's system. 

 

SaintsInDome2006

Footballguy
raidergil said:
Still have 12.5% chance at making playoffs!! (Boy that loss last week hurts).
Out of curiosity what does it take besides just Oak and HOU winning & Pit losing? 

 
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Fair takes on the situation.  Carr's stats all look ok to pretty good, but the Raiders are 24th in points per game at a shade under 20.  He does not make guys around him better and he does not pass the eye test as far as being a championship caliber QB when I watch the games, yet he is paid like he is an elite QB.  You don't need an elite QB to win a super bowl, but you need the rest of the team to be great in that situation.  That's harder to do when you have a QB that is paid $25 million per year, but does not play to that level.

As far as draft eligible QBs, the more I think about it the more I think Jalen Hurts might be a good fit for Gruden's system. 
Your takes are fair as well. To be clear, I'm not out to change anyone's mind on Carr. Debatable about him not making the guys around him better. Cooper and Crabs were solid when Carr helped lead the team to their first playoff berth in a decade and a half -- but I think he made guys like Waller, Ty Williams, and Renfrow better. He made Cook look great after being pedestrian in the 2-3 years prior to coming to the Raiders; and better than he looked after subsequently shifting to a 1st ballot HOF QB throwing him the ball.

I'd also argue that he isn't paid like an elite QB. He set an early bar against which truly elite QBs like Wilson and Rodgers could be paid like elite QBs. Wentz gets paid almost $10M more. Carr has nearly the same contract Alex Smith has.

I think we all agree he still has to prove he can take this team to the next level. 

I think he can. We seem to have the right line and backfield, and if we can get a true starting WR1 and WR2  (if Ty Williams can't hold that spot), I think Carr easily brings us to the playoffs again. I mean, he has nearly done it this year already.

Indy also needs to beat Jax and one of these 4 must win (as it impacts strength of schedule tie breaker): NYG, Det, KC, NE.

Biggest issue (other than Oak winning in Denver) is that Balt doesn't need game & already said key players are sitting.
Agree that the biggest hurdle in this is likely PIT with BAL treating this like a bye. That's going to be the one that puts the dagger in.

Also sucks that the Vikes will likely rest starters against CHI, meaning our pick from them will lose value too.

 

Ed Wood

Footballguy
will probably lose at DEN next week......Carr is not the answer.....can totally see them trading the farm for the #1......
This would mean more (but still not much) coming from a Broncos fan. 🤣 They may lose to Denver, Carr may not be the answer but they will not trade the farm for the  No. 1. If Mayock and Gruden didn't know what they were doing, maybe they'd package something but they absolutely nailed the first draft and they're not packaging a bunch of picks to move up to No. 1.

While the board is pretty split on Carr most everyone agrees they have much bigger needs than QB. Addressing those, then seeing where Carr's at would seem to be the right play.

 

Ed Wood

Footballguy
Stompin' Tom Connors said:
To be clear, I'm not out to change anyone's mind on Carr. Debatable about him not making the guys around him better. Cooper and Crabs were solid when Carr helped lead the team to their first playoff berth in a decade and a half -- but I think he made guys like Waller, Ty Williams, and Renfrow better. He made Cook look great after being pedestrian in the 2-3 years prior to coming to the Raiders; and better than he looked after subsequently shifting to a 1st ballot HOF QB throwing him the ball.
This is definitely some food for thought, Tom, especially the last part. I may be shortchanging Carr some in this area. 👍

 

ICON211

Footballguy
Carr just spiked the ball into the ground on 3rd and 3 because he didn't like the way the play was going.  Today is a good example of his numbers looking pretty good, but the team has 3 points through 3 quarters and watching the game he has not been very good.

 

PennStater77

Footballguy
Oakland has some good young talent, I think they are going to get better, but is Gruden the right guy for them? He was successful before with a older team, but should Oakland bring in a younger, newer coach? Maybe a Matt Ruhle?

 

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