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***Official - 2024 Major League Baseball Thread - Dodgers Cook With Gas While The Others Eat Cold Cuts*** (1 Viewer)

I think right call to put Sabathia in, but I was surprised that he got in that easily on the first ballot. His numbers aren’t that much better than Pettitte, who has not really sniffed getting close to 75%. And Mussina had better numbers, but it took him six ballots to get in.
 
I think right call to put Sabathia in, but I was surprised that he got in that easily on the first ballot. His numbers aren’t that much better than Pettitte, who has not really sniffed getting close to 75%. And Mussina had better numbers, but it took him six ballots to get in.

I think there's probably been some evolution in how the electorate assesses modern starting pitchers in the decade since Mussina was first eligible. Mussina also had a couple of years where Maddux, Glavine, Pedro, Randy Johnson and Smoltz were on the ballot.

Pettitte's chances at reaching 75% are capped by the anti-PEDs contingent.
 
Next year’s first time eligible group is pretty weak. May see some of these guys on the cusp get in (Beltran/Jones).
 
I'm not really surprised Sabathia got it. He was a very very good pitcher. He won a Cy Young and had 4 other top 5 finishes. Over 250 wins in today's era is really good as well. I probably would have voted for him eventually, but not first ballot.
Buster Olney posted pitchers with similar WAR's to Sabathia not in the HOF
CC Sabathia 61.8
Curt Schilling 80.5
Zack Greinke 72.4
Luis Tiant 65.6
Tommy John 62.1
David Cone 61.6
Andy Pettitte 60.7
Mark Buehrle 60.0

Schilling is very polarizing, but he should be in. But the other guys are a whole bunch of meh as well. Greinke will probably get in as he also won a Cy young and a few other top 5 finishses.
Cone is every bit the pitcher that Sabathia is, and he wasn't voted in. And when I think back on Buehrle I think of a good pitcher, but nowhere near HOF worthy. But he did win 10+ in 15 straight years (only 1 losing record at 12-13). 🤔
 
would have voted for him eventually, but not first ballot.
I don't really understand this philosophy. A guy is either HOF worthy or he is not. To say, I am not voting for him now but I will in 4 years makes no sense to me.
I get it, I do.
But sometimes I have to be talked into a player and when there are more candidates on the ballot, I am less willing to listen.
Bert Blyleven and Jack Morris come to mind. Tim Raines as well. I'm glad all three got in, but none of those three were slam dunks IMO.
 
But sometimes I have to be talked into a player and when there are more candidates on the ballot, I am less willing to listen.
I guess IMO if you have to be "talked into a player" then they aren't HOF worthy.

I am just playing the other side of the argument as I understand that sometimes you don't know how good a guy was until you get presented the argument of why they deserve it. There are quite a few guys that have a lot better numbers than the impression of just watching a guy play provides so you do kind of need to be "talked" into it.

I just think with the way society has moved over the years (participation trophy mentality) it has a tendency to dilute what a HOF'er should be. It is a tough decision for sure but I think there is a lot of inconsistency in the voters (and I mean to themselves not across all voters) and that is what irks me a bit.

ETA: I think that is why the original statement I quoted is so irksome. If I had a vote, I would vote a guy in his first year and if I didn't I wouldn't ever vote him in. Nothing should change between year 1 and year 10 (or however many years they are eligible). If I am a voter my job is to do my due diligence on a guy the first time he is eligible. So if he didn't make the cut he would never make the cut.
 
But sometimes I have to be talked into a player and when there are more candidates on the ballot, I am less willing to listen.
I guess IMO if you have to be "talked into a player" then they aren't HOF worthy.

I am just playing the other side of the argument as I understand that sometimes you don't know how good a guy was until you get presented the argument of why they deserve it. There are quite a few guys that have a lot better numbers than the impression of just watching a guy play provides so you do kind of need to be "talked" into it.

I just think with the way society has moved over the years (participation trophy mentality) it has a tendency to dilute what a HOF'er should be. It is a tough decision for sure but I think there is a lot of inconsistency in the voters (and I mean to themselves not across all voters) and that is what irks me a bit.

ETA: I think that is why the original statement I quoted is so irksome. If I had a vote, I would vote a guy in his first year and if I didn't I wouldn't ever vote him in. Nothing should change between year 1 and year 10 (or however many years they are eligible). If I am a voter my job is to do my due diligence on a guy the first time he is eligible. So if he didn't make the cut he would never make the cut.

This doesn't align at all with the caliber of players who were inducted into the HoF in past decades. The hall's standards have grown more stringent over time especially with the various eras (aka veterans') committees.
 
The hall's standards have grown more stringent over time especially with the various eras (aka veterans') committees.
I would think that makes sense. I would think over time players would be getting better and better so what was good enough 30 yrs ago isn't good enough now. That leads to it making even less sense to say I am not voting for a guy now but will in 5 years.
 
Yeah the baseball HOF is the most stringent of the big 4 sports.

So much so you only see 2-3 go in a year.

So voters literally can choose 3-4 players from a lot of choices. Some years some guys look like slam dunks and the only 2 for me this year were Billy Wagner (long long overdue) and Ichiro.

I think CC’s body of work is HOF worthy as is Andruw Jones and Andy P.

If either Jones or Petitte went in I would have not batted an eye.

Beltran is very close and will eventually get in IMO.

The fact McGriff did not go in during his first 10 years of eligibility was criminal for the Crime Dog!!! But thank goodness the veteran committee got him in!
 
i am glad cc is in because he was a huge part of the brewers going back to the playoffs as a rental player between cleveland and new york but if he had to wait a few years i would have been fine with that ichiro should have been a unanimous first ballat hofer and its stupid that he wasnt he was the best contact hitter in the history of the game pettitte used hgh and should never go in take that to the bank bromigos
 
The hall's standards have grown more stringent over time especially with the various eras (aka veterans') committees.
I would think that makes sense. I would think over time players would be getting better and better so what was good enough 30 yrs ago isn't good enough now. That leads to it making even less sense to say I am not voting for a guy now but will in 5 years.

There are also 2.5x as many teams nowadays and longer careers for position players.

If you look at the veterans' committee inductees from the 60s and 70s, you'll find players who had worse careers than modern guys who didn't even make it on the BBWAA ballot. Even the writers were known pick their favorites like Rabbit Maranville (RIP @Bogart :crying:) in spite of mediocre on-field credentials.
 
i am glad cc is in because he was a huge part of the brewers going back to the playoffs as a rental player between cleveland and new york but if he had to wait a few years i would have been fine with that ichiro should have been a unanimous first ballat hofer and its stupid that he wasnt he was the best contact hitter in the history of the game pettitte used hgh and should never go in take that to the bank bromigos
#thisismycrew is definitely higher on CC. His 3 months in Milwaukee was just insane. The number of games as well as complete games. He probably had more complete games in that stretch than all of MLB the last 10 years. All the while nobody even remotely thought there was a chance to resign with the Brew Crew.

He just had that pizazz.
 
would have voted for him eventually, but not first ballot.
I don't really understand this philosophy. A guy is either HOF worthy or he is not. To say, I am not voting for him now but I will in 4 years makes no sense to me.
Used to be the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good. Either he is a HOFer or he isn't. It shouldn't be the Hall of Best of whats available this year. If there isn't someone worthy, then there is no ceremony. Nothing made them better in the last 10 years of not playing.


And the idiot that did not vote for Ichiro should have his voting rights revoked.
 
would have voted for him eventually, but not first ballot.
I don't really understand this philosophy. A guy is either HOF worthy or he is not. To say, I am not voting for him now but I will in 4 years makes no sense to me.
Used to be the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good. Either he is a HOFer or he isn't. It shouldn't be the Hall of Best of whats available this year. If there isn't someone worthy, then there is no ceremony. Nothing made them better in the last 10 years of not playing.


And the idiot that did not vote for Ichiro should have his voting rights revoked.

Agree on Ichiro, but I also follow a local sports guy in the PNW who is awfully critical of the man for not having much in the way of power. I disagree that it diminishes him in any way, but that's the knock I hear the most out here.
 
critical of the man for not having much in the way of power.
That is a falsity when it comes to Ichiro. He didn't hit a lot of HR's but that wasn't due to a lack of power. If he wanted to hit HR's and drop his average by 30-50 pts he could have been a 25 HR guy. He chose to spray the ball, steal bases and score runs. It was the culture he grew up in and the way he played.

Don't mistake my comment to say he was a power hitter. He isn't a "power hitter" and never would be but he could hit HR's if that was his approach.
 
Not having much power, huh
Wade Boggs led the majors in oWAR twice in his career, 1986 and 1988.
1986 he hit 8 home runs
1988 he hit 5 (and this was the year that Jose Canseco became the first 40/40 player in MLB history, Boggs was still more valuable offensively).
Really need power to be an offensive power house. :wall:
 
critical of the man for not having much in the way of power.
That is a falsity when it comes to Ichiro. He didn't hit a lot of HR's but that wasn't due to a lack of power. If he wanted to hit HR's and drop his average by 30-50 pts he could have been a 25 HR guy. He chose to spray the ball, steal bases and score runs. It was the culture he grew up in and the way he played.

Don't mistake my comment to say he was a power hitter. He isn't a "power hitter" and never would be but he could hit HR's if that was his approach.

Believe me, I live out in the NW so I'm acutely aware of his career. He was an incredible player to watch but the teams weren't very good. The Mariners wasted the careers of Ichiro and King Felix. But the idea that he could have been a power hitter if he wanted to be is a used as a knock against him by the writer I'm citing. He thinks the Mariners might have won more games if he did hit for more power since 'he could if he wanted to'.

It's not like other Mariners were picking up the power slack. I mean, they employed Russell Branyon as their clean-up hitter for god's sake.
 
critical of the man for not having much in the way of power.
That is a falsity when it comes to Ichiro. He didn't hit a lot of HR's but that wasn't due to a lack of power. If he wanted to hit HR's and drop his average by 30-50 pts he could have been a 25 HR guy. He chose to spray the ball, steal bases and score runs. It was the culture he grew up in and the way he played.

Don't mistake my comment to say he was a power hitter. He isn't a "power hitter" and never would be but he could hit HR's if that was his approach.
From everything I heard about him in BP, he would routinely hit bombs, esp when asked. Yes its BP, but like you said, he had the power.


My favorite stat of his the fact that he singled in his 10th AB to make his batting ave an even .300 and for the rest of his career it never dipped below that mark.
 
But the idea that he could have been a power hitter if he wanted to be is a used as a knock against him by the writer I'm citing.
I didn't realize the writer was agreeing that he could hit homers and was knocking him because he chose to be an all around hitter instead. I though he was just saying he couldn't hit for power and that was the knock. I get it now. The guy is a nitwit.
 
Yeah, it's crazy, the 2001 Mariners (Ichiro's rookie year) had 116 wins, most ever by mlb club.
Ichiro didn't reach the playoffs again until 2012 with the Yankees. Oof
 
critical of the man for not having much in the way of power.
That is a falsity when it comes to Ichiro. He didn't hit a lot of HR's but that wasn't due to a lack of power. If he wanted to hit HR's and drop his average by 30-50 pts he could have been a 25 HR guy. He chose to spray the ball, steal bases and score runs. It was the culture he grew up in and the way he played.

Don't mistake my comment to say he was a power hitter. He isn't a "power hitter" and never would be but he could hit HR's if that was his approach.

Believe me, I live out in the NW so I'm acutely aware of his career. He was an incredible player to watch but the teams weren't very good. The Mariners wasted the careers of Ichiro and King Felix. But the idea that he could have been a power hitter if he wanted to be is a used as a knock against him by the writer I'm citing. He thinks the Mariners might have won more games if he did hit for more power since 'he could if he wanted to'.

It's not like other Mariners were picking up the power slack. I mean, they employed Russell Branyon as their clean-up hitter for god's sake.
Yer writer is turd. Knows jack **** about baseball....and probably never picked up a glove, ball or bat in his pencil neck geek ridden life.

Anyway.....
 
But the idea that he could have been a power hitter if he wanted to be is a used as a knock against him by the writer I'm citing.
I didn't realize the writer was agreeing that he could hit homers and was knocking him because he chose to be an all around hitter instead. I though he was just saying he couldn't hit for power and that was the knock. I get it now. The guy is a nitwit.

I think the voters for the baseball HOF should have their ballot made public. Guessing the lone "NO" voter wouldn't have done that had he been outed.
 
Yeah, it's crazy, the 2001 Mariners (Ichiro's rookie year) had 116 wins, most ever by mlb club.
Ichiro didn't reach the playoffs again until 2012 with the Yankees. Oof

They are a notoriously cheap ownership group. As we sit here today, nobody knows who will play 1B, 2B or 3B. The world was denied the privilege of watching King Felix pitch in the post season because the owners never wanted to spend any money. Damn shame.
 
But the idea that he could have been a power hitter if he wanted to be is a used as a knock against him by the writer I'm citing.
I didn't realize the writer was agreeing that he could hit homers and was knocking him because he chose to be an all around hitter instead. I though he was just saying he couldn't hit for power and that was the knock. I get it now. The guy is a nitwit.

I think the voters for the baseball HOF should have their ballot made public. Guessing the lone "NO" voter wouldn't have done that had he been outed.
The reason I've most heard from some of these writers is that "they knew he would get in so he wanted to give a vote to someone else". Usually its a courtesy vote to someone that has no chance, but are liked by that writer and wants to give that player props.

I think writers get a certain amount of votes they can cast. But unlike the NFL, i do not believe there is a cap on how many can get in. It's all so ridiculous. If someone is worthy, you vote for them. If 12 get in this year and 0 next year, so be it.


Now GET OFF MY LAWN
 
I think writers get a certain amount of votes they can cast. But unlike the NFL, i do not believe there is a cap on how many can get in. It's all so ridiculous. If someone is worthy, you vote for them. If 12 get in this year and 0 next year, so be it.
Again, this concept doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Players cannot control how many guys each year are eligible and how many of those are worthy of consideration. Why is it capped? A guy is good enough or he isn't. Like you said some years there may be 15 guys worthy and other years there aren't any. This whole process is suspect.
 
Yeah, it's crazy, the 2001 Mariners (Ichiro's rookie year) had 116 wins, most ever by mlb club.
Ichiro didn't reach the playoffs again until 2012 with the Yankees. Oof

They are a notoriously cheap ownership group. As we sit here today, nobody knows who will play 1B, 2B or 3B. The world was denied the privilege of watching King Felix pitch in the post season because the owners never wanted to spend any money. Damn shame.
Roster Resource currently lists Luke Raley, Dylan Moore and Donovan Solano in their starting infield. Meanwhile Bregman and Alonso remain unsigned. Going to be funny when they miss the playoffs by 1 game for a 3rd straight year.
 
Yeah, it's crazy, the 2001 Mariners (Ichiro's rookie year) had 116 wins, most ever by mlb club.
Ichiro didn't reach the playoffs again until 2012 with the Yankees. Oof

They are a notoriously cheap ownership group. As we sit here today, nobody knows who will play 1B, 2B or 3B. The world was denied the privilege of watching King Felix pitch in the post season because the owners never wanted to spend any money. Damn shame.
Roster Resource currently lists Luke Raley, Dylan Moore and Donovan Solano in their starting infield. Meanwhile Bregman and Alonso remain unsigned. Going to be funny when they miss the playoffs by 1 game for a 3rd straight year.

They have/had one of the best pitching staffs in baseball for a couple of years, but they just can't get the offense figured out. Off the top of my head, the Seattle team OBP has been near the bottom of MLB for 20 years at least. They don't get on base. They can't hit with runners in scoring position. They lose more 1 run games than anybody.

This isn't hard. Watch Money Ball once to figure the offense out. I don't know how Mariner fans continue to support this ineffective crap.
 
They have/had one of the best pitching staffs in baseball for a couple of years, but they just can't get the offense figured out. Off the top of my head, the Seattle team OBP has been near the bottom of MLB for 20 years at least. They don't get on base. They can't hit with runners in scoring position. They lose more 1 run games than anybody.

This isn't hard. Watch Money Ball once to figure the offense out. I don't know how Mariner fans continue to support this ineffective crap.

I'm surprised Seattle GM Jerry Dipoto hasn't been more aggressive this offseason. They're in a winnable division and Dipoto has never been shy about trading. I like Donovan Solano aka Donnie Barrels but he's 37 and has never been a full-time player. That's no way to run a hot stove.

The Mariners have starting pitching and a strong farm system but their top prospects are all a year away. The lineup could use two more bats depending on whether you're buying the Victor Robles post-hype breakout.
 
I'm surprised Seattle GM Jerry Dipoto hasn't been more aggressive this offseason
There was scuttlebutt awhile back with the Cubs and Mariners exchanging Nico Hoerner and Luis Castillo.

Castillo is owed at least 75 million with another potential 25 added on with performance and injury related incentives. The trade of Hoerner would have opened up a spot for Matt Shaw who could be a ROY candidate.

That's moot now, as the Kyle Tucker trade paved the way for Matt Shaw to play 3B.
 
They have/had one of the best pitching staffs in baseball for a couple of years, but they just can't get the offense figured out. Off the top of my head, the Seattle team OBP has been near the bottom of MLB for 20 years at least. They don't get on base. They can't hit with runners in scoring position. They lose more 1 run games than anybody.

This isn't hard. Watch Money Ball once to figure the offense out. I don't know how Mariner fans continue to support this ineffective crap.

I'm surprised Seattle GM Jerry Dipoto hasn't been more aggressive this offseason. They're in a winnable division and Dipoto has never been shy about trading. I like Donovan Solano aka Donnie Barrels but he's 37 and has never been a full-time player. That's no way to run a hot stove.

The Mariners have starting pitching and a strong farm system but their top prospects are all a year away. The lineup could use two more bats depending on whether you're buying the Victor Robles post-hype breakout.

Well, and we got a glimpse of what Julio Rod looks like absent protection and production in the line-up. He can't carry an offense. They can never seem to land a high OBP/Plus Power corner. Beltré didn't have his best years there. It's like players get to or come to Seattle and become anemic offensively.
 
I'm surprised Seattle GM Jerry Dipoto hasn't been more aggressive this offseason
There was scuttlebutt awhile back with the Cubs and Mariners exchanging Nico Hoerner and Luis Castillo.

Castillo is owed at least 75 million with another potential 25 added on with performance and injury related incentives. The trade of Hoerner would have opened up a spot for Matt Shaw who could be a ROY candidate.

That's moot now, as the Kyle Tucker trade paved the way for Matt Shaw to play 3B.

Hoerner for Castillo would have been a terrible trade. The Seattles really don't need another slap hitting infielder.

Castillo has been one of the most reliable SPs since he came up. He's basically making Sean Manaea money in the current economy.
 
Well, and we got a glimpse of what Julio Rod looks like absent protection and production in the line-up. He can't carry an offense. They can never seem to land a high OBP/Plus Power corner. Beltré didn't have his best years there. It's like players get to or come to Seattle and become anemic offensively.

Eugenio Suarez hit 30 HRs last year for Arizona :rolleyes:
 
I think writers get a certain amount of votes they can cast.

I thought they could pick up to 10. I doubt there was a writer out there who chose 10 other guys from this year's list over Ichiro.
You would think. But as I said I've seen quotes saying they "knew (player A) would get in so they wanted to give a vote to someone else".
Usually its a courtesy vote to someone that has no chance, but are liked by that writer and wants to give that player props.

So there have been times where a writer casts 10 votes and one of them is for someone with no chance.
 
Twins have announced most of their plans to be able to watch games next year. Twins.TV will be available for $99.99 for the year or $19.99 per month. It will also be possible on most cable and Satellite providers although not all of them have been listed yet. If you are a season ticket holder, there will be a discount for the package available. Part of the biggest news is that there will be no blackouts for MN, SD, ND, WI and IA.
 
Twins have announced most of their plans to be able to watch games next year. Twins.TV will be available for $99.99 for the year or $19.99 per month. It will also be possible on most cable and Satellite providers although not all of them have been listed yet. If you are a season ticket holder, there will be a discount for the package available. Part of the biggest news is that there will be no blackouts for MN, SD, ND, WI and IA.
One thing I haven't clarified yet is whether FanDuel TV or whatever the heck it is now will still be carrying the games? I have DirecTV streaming basically because it carries that channel and I can watch Twins, Wild, etc. Will the games still be on that? If I have to now go buy another standalone package just to get Twins games, I might be out.
 
Twins have announced most of their plans to be able to watch games next year. Twins.TV will be available for $99.99 for the year or $19.99 per month. It will also be possible on most cable and Satellite providers although not all of them have been listed yet. If you are a season ticket holder, there will be a discount for the package available. Part of the biggest news is that there will be no blackouts for MN, SD, ND, WI and IA.
One thing I haven't clarified yet is whether FanDuel TV or whatever the heck it is now will still be carrying the games? I have DirecTV streaming basically because it carries that channel and I can watch Twins, Wild, etc. Will the games still be on that? If I have to now go buy another standalone package just to get Twins games, I might be out.
They will not be. The way they made is sound from what I listened to is that if you were able to watch them on Fanduel TV, you will be able to watch them this year. They will have their own dedicated channel that will go live so long before a game (it sounded like there will still be a pre game and post game show). Directv was mentioned as were MN cable providers, but DISH was not mentioned which may be an oversight but not sure.
 
They have/had one of the best pitching staffs in baseball for a couple of years, but they just can't get the offense figured out. Off the top of my head, the Seattle team OBP has been near the bottom of MLB for 20 years at least. They don't get on base. They can't hit with runners in scoring position. They lose more 1 run games than anybody.

This isn't hard. Watch Money Ball once to figure the offense out. I don't know how Mariner fans continue to support this ineffective crap.

I'm surprised Seattle GM Jerry Dipoto hasn't been more aggressive this offseason. They're in a winnable division and Dipoto has never been shy about trading. I like Donovan Solano aka Donnie Barrels but he's 37 and has never been a full-time player. That's no way to run a hot stove.

The Mariners have starting pitching and a strong farm system but their top prospects are all a year away. The lineup could use two more bats depending on whether you're buying the Victor Robles post-hype breakout.
The ownership won't spend money. Dipito's hands are tied. They're going to start selling off that pitching staff.
 
The ownership won't spend money. Dipito's hands are tied. They're going to start selling off that pitching staff.

Ownership and salary constraints have never stopped Trader Jerry before. It's been one of the worst hot stoves in recent memory with the Dodgers getting everyone and Dipoto and AJ Preller mostly quiet.
 
The ownership won't spend money. Dipito's hands are tied. They're going to start selling off that pitching staff.

Ownership and salary constraints have never stopped Trader Jerry before. It's been one of the worst hot stoves in recent memory with the Dodgers getting everyone and Dipoto and AJ Preller mostly quiet.

In a move that will please nobody except Jorge Polanco, the Mariners have re-signed him and plan to move him to 3B :rolleyes:
 
The ownership won't spend money. Dipito's hands are tied. They're going to start selling off that pitching staff.

Ownership and salary constraints have never stopped Trader Jerry before. It's been one of the worst hot stoves in recent memory with the Dodgers getting everyone and Dipoto and AJ Preller mostly quiet.

In a move that will please nobody except Jorge Polanco, the Mariners have re-signed him and plan to move him to 3B :rolleyes:

Well, that should everything.
 
Kenny Lofton has similar offensive numbers and a better WAR than Ichiro. Why isn't he in? Is it that he didn't get to 3,000 hits?
Yes 3000 hits has been historically a guarantee get in. Also being considered one of the best at a given time.

Ichiro was setting records with amount of hits, years with 200+ hits and all after what he did in Japan.
If I am not mistaken when you combine his Japanese league and MLB hits totals he is higher than Rose. Ichiro is considered one of the best hitters.
Not sure Lofton was every considered one of the best at any time. He might of been, but is definitely underrated.

I'm a fan of Lofton but just from name recognition Lofton felt like hall of very good. Ichiro was hall of fame. I really didn't realize how similar their numbers actually are though. Might be worth another look for the voters.
 
Kenny Lofton has similar offensive numbers and a better WAR than Ichiro. Why isn't he in? Is it that he didn't get to 3,000 hits?
Yes 3000 hits has been historically a guarantee get in. Also being considered one of the best at a given time.

Ichiro was setting records with amount of hits, years with 200+ hits and all after what he did in Japan.
If I am not mistaken when you combine his Japanese league and MLB hits totals he is higher than Rose. Ichiro is considered one of the best hitters.
Not sure Lofton was every considered one of the best at any time. He might of been, but is definitely underrated.

I'm a fan of Lofton but just from name recognition Lofton felt like hall of very good. Ichiro was hall of fame. I really didn't realize how similar their numbers actually are though. Might be worth another look for the voters.

I think Lofton's candidacy was hurt by all the bouncing around between teams he did after his initial stint with Cleveland. He was always a good player wherever he went but he never put up eyepopping stats--his career season was interrupted by the strike in 1994 and his best basestealing years came shortly after Rickey, Raines and Coleman so they weren't as impressive at the time. The voters also don't seem to value superior OF defense like they do for middle infielders.

It is still very impressive that Lofton played in both a Final Four and a World Series.
 

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