Official Bishop Sankey - Best RB in the 2014 Draft (2 Viewers)

[Carter_Can_Fly]

- The average first round RB is 217 pounds with a 30.3 BMI, a 4.44 40, a 35.8" vertical, and a 10'2" broad jump.

Bishop Sankey - 209 pounds, 30.5 BMI, 4.49 40, 35.5" vertical, 10'6" broad jump

This is from your own post and I thought it was a great one.

Sankey misses that average 1st round RB by 8 lbs., .04 in the 40 and 0.3 inches in the vertical. His BMI is above average so even though he weighs less it is proportional to his height.

There are lots of guys floating around with great workout numbers who aren't great running backs and vice versa. When I looked in depth at the numbers, I also found that among the 1st round guys it was best if the player had a clearly defined stylistic leaning. Meaning it was better to be either really small and really fast (like Spiller and Chris Johnson) or to be really big (215-220+ pounds). Sankey is neither here nor there. In a lot of ways he's reminiscent of guys like Donald Brown and Felix Jones. Not big enough to be a power back. Not fast enough to be a speed back. Caught in the dead zone. You could maybe point towards LeSean McCoy or Ray Rice as a cause for optimism, but subjectively I don't see a lot of similarities between those backs and Sankey. From my perspective he's closer to the likes of Donald Brown, Felix Jones, and Tashard Choice.

I did not especially like Sankey as a draft prospect and watching him out there in a few clips tonight, I was not terribly impressed. It's kind of funny how you can watch these guys for months in college without having a 100% concrete take on their prospects, and yet when you see them out there in the NFL there's almost an immediate "aha" or "ehhhh" reaction. Some guys like Andre Williams and Tre Mason just look like they belong. Others not so much. I don't really say it with any great joy, but if you can get market value (~RB15) for Sankey then I'd pounce all day. I don't see the upside to go a whole lot higher than that in the future and there's a very real possibility that his value will crumble if he doesn't flash good talent this year.

Sankey's strength is as a receiver - did you see the catch where he bailed out Whitehurst and turned a nothing play into a 23 yard gain? And then the 5 yard TD reception he made look easy.

He's not going to make a lot on his own as a runner but he bursts through holes when he gets them (see the 8 and 9 yard gains he made). I would not be so high on him if I expected his OL to play like it did last night.

Hmmm, above average as a receiver, average at best running through the tackles. Not a recipe for a fantasy stud IMO. Haven't watched the game but plan to do so later today.

How do we know he is average at best running through the tackles?

Also, part of being a great fantasy football back is opportunity and touches. The thing I think Sankey will prove is his worth as a blocker which will buy him more snaps and more playing time. He is the best rb on that team by a wide margin and it should not take long for him to be a big part of their offense.

Sankey is not an Adrian Peterson type of talent but he was clearly targeted by the Titans to play a big part of their attack going forward. He should be drafted as a RB2 with RB1 upside.

 

[werdnoynek]

- The average first round RB is 217 pounds with a 30.3 BMI, a 4.44 40, a 35.8" vertical, and a 10'2" broad jump.

Bishop Sankey - 209 pounds, 30.5 BMI, 4.49 40, 35.5" vertical, 10'6" broad jump

This is from your own post and I thought it was a great one.

Sankey misses that average 1st round RB by 8 lbs., .04 in the 40 and 0.3 inches in the vertical. His BMI is above average so even though he weighs less it is proportional to his height.

There are lots of guys floating around with great workout numbers who aren't great running backs and vice versa. When I looked in depth at the numbers, I also found that among the 1st round guys it was best if the player had a clearly defined stylistic leaning. Meaning it was better to be either really small and really fast (like Spiller and Chris Johnson) or to be really big (215-220+ pounds). Sankey is neither here nor there. In a lot of ways he's reminiscent of guys like Donald Brown and Felix Jones. Not big enough to be a power back. Not fast enough to be a speed back. Caught in the dead zone. You could maybe point towards LeSean McCoy or Ray Rice as a cause for optimism, but subjectively I don't see a lot of similarities between those backs and Sankey. From my perspective he's closer to the likes of Donald Brown, Felix Jones, and Tashard Choice.

I did not especially like Sankey as a draft prospect and watching him out there in a few clips tonight, I was not terribly impressed. It's kind of funny how you can watch these guys for months in college without having a 100% concrete take on their prospects, and yet when you see them out there in the NFL there's almost an immediate "aha" or "ehhhh" reaction. Some guys like Andre Williams and Tre Mason just look like they belong. Others not so much. I don't really say it with any great joy, but if you can get market value (~RB15) for Sankey then I'd pounce all day. I don't see the upside to go a whole lot higher than that in the future and there's a very real possibility that his value will crumble if he doesn't flash good talent this year.

Sankey's strength is as a receiver - did you see the catch where he bailed out Whitehurst and turned a nothing play into a 23 yard gain? And then the 5 yard TD reception he made look easy.

He's not going to make a lot on his own as a runner but he bursts through holes when he gets them (see the 8 and 9 yard gains he made). I would not be so high on him if I expected his OL to play like it did last night.

Hmmm, above average as a receiver, average at best running through the tackles. Not a recipe for a fantasy stud IMO. Haven't watched the game but plan to do so later today.

How do we know he is average at best running through the tackles?

Also, part of being a great fantasy football back is opportunity and touches. The thing I think Sankey will prove is his worth as a blocker which will buy him more snaps and more playing time. He is the best rb on that team by a wide margin and it should not take long for him to be a big part of their offense.

Sankey is not an Adrian Peterson type of talent but he was clearly targeted by the Titans to play a big part of their attack going forward. He should be drafted as a RB2 with RB1 upside.

Because we watched him play at Washington. Drafting up as an RB2 seems like a major stretch for this season, IMO. I'd be more happy with him as an RB3/4 and hope for RB2 upside.

 

[cstu]

- The average first round RB is 217 pounds with a 30.3 BMI, a 4.44 40, a 35.8" vertical, and a 10'2" broad jump.

Bishop Sankey - 209 pounds, 30.5 BMI, 4.49 40, 35.5" vertical, 10'6" broad jump

This is from your own post and I thought it was a great one.

Sankey misses that average 1st round RB by 8 lbs., .04 in the 40 and 0.3 inches in the vertical. His BMI is above average so even though he weighs less it is proportional to his height.

There are lots of guys floating around with great workout numbers who aren't great running backs and vice versa. When I looked in depth at the numbers, I also found that among the 1st round guys it was best if the player had a clearly defined stylistic leaning. Meaning it was better to be either really small and really fast (like Spiller and Chris Johnson) or to be really big (215-220+ pounds). Sankey is neither here nor there. In a lot of ways he's reminiscent of guys like Donald Brown and Felix Jones. Not big enough to be a power back. Not fast enough to be a speed back. Caught in the dead zone. You could maybe point towards LeSean McCoy or Ray Rice as a cause for optimism, but subjectively I don't see a lot of similarities between those backs and Sankey. From my perspective he's closer to the likes of Donald Brown, Felix Jones, and Tashard Choice.

I did not especially like Sankey as a draft prospect and watching him out there in a few clips tonight, I was not terribly impressed. It's kind of funny how you can watch these guys for months in college without having a 100% concrete take on their prospects, and yet when you see them out there in the NFL there's almost an immediate "aha" or "ehhhh" reaction. Some guys like Andre Williams and Tre Mason just look like they belong. Others not so much. I don't really say it with any great joy, but if you can get market value (~RB15) for Sankey then I'd pounce all day. I don't see the upside to go a whole lot higher than that in the future and there's a very real possibility that his value will crumble if he doesn't flash good talent this year.

Sankey's strength is as a receiver - did you see the catch where he bailed out Whitehurst and turned a nothing play into a 23 yard gain? And then the 5 yard TD reception he made look easy.

He's not going to make a lot on his own as a runner but he bursts through holes when he gets them (see the 8 and 9 yard gains he made). I would not be so high on him if I expected his OL to play like it did last night.

Hmmm, above average as a receiver, average at best running through the tackles. Not a recipe for a fantasy stud IMO. Haven't watched the game but plan to do so later today.

How do we know he is average at best running through the tackles?

Also, part of being a great fantasy football back is opportunity and touches. The thing I think Sankey will prove is his worth as a blocker which will buy him more snaps and more playing time. He is the best rb on that team by a wide margin and it should not take long for him to be a big part of their offense.

Sankey is not an Adrian Peterson type of talent but he was clearly targeted by the Titans to play a big part of their attack going forward. He should be drafted as a RB2 with RB1 upside.

Because we watched him play at Washington. Drafting up as an RB2 seems like a major stretch for this season, IMO. I'd be more happy with him as an RB3/4 and hope for RB2 upside.

Did you watch Shane Vereen when he played at California? He was not impressive to me in the slightest in college but like Sankey what he did best was catch the football and was 'good enough' running the ball.

Sankey tested better than Vereen in every test except the bench, which he still put up an impressive 26 compared to Vereen's 31.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

- The average first round RB is 217 pounds with a 30.3 BMI, a 4.44 40, a 35.8" vertical, and a 10'2" broad jump.

Bishop Sankey - 209 pounds, 30.5 BMI, 4.49 40, 35.5" vertical, 10'6" broad jump

This is from your own post and I thought it was a great one.

Sankey misses that average 1st round RB by 8 lbs., .04 in the 40 and 0.3 inches in the vertical. His BMI is above average so even though he weighs less it is proportional to his height.

There are lots of guys floating around with great workout numbers who aren't great running backs and vice versa. When I looked in depth at the numbers, I also found that among the 1st round guys it was best if the player had a clearly defined stylistic leaning. Meaning it was better to be either really small and really fast (like Spiller and Chris Johnson) or to be really big (215-220+ pounds). Sankey is neither here nor there. In a lot of ways he's reminiscent of guys like Donald Brown and Felix Jones. Not big enough to be a power back. Not fast enough to be a speed back. Caught in the dead zone. You could maybe point towards LeSean McCoy or Ray Rice as a cause for optimism, but subjectively I don't see a lot of similarities between those backs and Sankey. From my perspective he's closer to the likes of Donald Brown, Felix Jones, and Tashard Choice.

I did not especially like Sankey as a draft prospect and watching him out there in a few clips tonight, I was not terribly impressed. It's kind of funny how you can watch these guys for months in college without having a 100% concrete take on their prospects, and yet when you see them out there in the NFL there's almost an immediate "aha" or "ehhhh" reaction. Some guys like Andre Williams and Tre Mason just look like they belong. Others not so much. I don't really say it with any great joy, but if you can get market value (~RB15) for Sankey then I'd pounce all day. I don't see the upside to go a whole lot higher than that in the future and there's a very real possibility that his value will crumble if he doesn't flash good talent this year.

Sankey's strength is as a receiver - did you see the catch where he bailed out Whitehurst and turned a nothing play into a 23 yard gain? And then the 5 yard TD reception he made look easy.

He's not going to make a lot on his own as a runner but he bursts through holes when he gets them (see the 8 and 9 yard gains he made). I would not be so high on him if I expected his OL to play like it did last night.

Hmmm, above average as a receiver, average at best running through the tackles. Not a recipe for a fantasy stud IMO. Haven't watched the game but plan to do so later today.

How do we know he is average at best running through the tackles?

Also, part of being a great fantasy football back is opportunity and touches. The thing I think Sankey will prove is his worth as a blocker which will buy him more snaps and more playing time. He is the best rb on that team by a wide margin and it should not take long for him to be a big part of their offense.

Sankey is not an Adrian Peterson type of talent but he was clearly targeted by the Titans to play a big part of their attack going forward. He should be drafted as a RB2 with RB1 upside.

Because we watched him play at Washington. Drafting up as an RB2 seems like a major stretch for this season, IMO. I'd be more happy with him as an RB3/4 and hope for RB2 upside.

When watching him play at Washington it seems that those who doubt Sankey throw out the argument that he only did well running the ball if the O line created a hole for him. Well news flash this is the case for pretty much every RB in the NFL. There are very few rb's that are very good when an O line is not creating holes and even the great ones struggle. The Titans offensive line is quite good and their will be holes there so we should not have to worry about that too much. We also don't know if Sankey is capable of being above average when the O line is not creating holes, so he very well could be fine even if the holes are not there.

Do you think an organization that also watched him play at Washington drafted him as the first RB on the board and thought that he could not run through the tackles? I am not sure there are many teams that draft the first RB in the draft unless they think he can run through the tackles. I get that it may not be his biggest strength, but I am not going to sit here and say Sankey can't run through the tackles.

Once again even last night in limited work and with a low ypc Sankey produced very good fantasy points. That will be the case for him as he gets involved in the passing game.

 

[werdnoynek]

- The average first round RB is 217 pounds with a 30.3 BMI, a 4.44 40, a 35.8" vertical, and a 10'2" broad jump.

Bishop Sankey - 209 pounds, 30.5 BMI, 4.49 40, 35.5" vertical, 10'6" broad jump

This is from your own post and I thought it was a great one.

Sankey misses that average 1st round RB by 8 lbs., .04 in the 40 and 0.3 inches in the vertical. His BMI is above average so even though he weighs less it is proportional to his height.

There are lots of guys floating around with great workout numbers who aren't great running backs and vice versa. When I looked in depth at the numbers, I also found that among the 1st round guys it was best if the player had a clearly defined stylistic leaning. Meaning it was better to be either really small and really fast (like Spiller and Chris Johnson) or to be really big (215-220+ pounds). Sankey is neither here nor there. In a lot of ways he's reminiscent of guys like Donald Brown and Felix Jones. Not big enough to be a power back. Not fast enough to be a speed back. Caught in the dead zone. You could maybe point towards LeSean McCoy or Ray Rice as a cause for optimism, but subjectively I don't see a lot of similarities between those backs and Sankey. From my perspective he's closer to the likes of Donald Brown, Felix Jones, and Tashard Choice.

I did not especially like Sankey as a draft prospect and watching him out there in a few clips tonight, I was not terribly impressed. It's kind of funny how you can watch these guys for months in college without having a 100% concrete take on their prospects, and yet when you see them out there in the NFL there's almost an immediate "aha" or "ehhhh" reaction. Some guys like Andre Williams and Tre Mason just look like they belong. Others not so much. I don't really say it with any great joy, but if you can get market value (~RB15) for Sankey then I'd pounce all day. I don't see the upside to go a whole lot higher than that in the future and there's a very real possibility that his value will crumble if he doesn't flash good talent this year.

Sankey's strength is as a receiver - did you see the catch where he bailed out Whitehurst and turned a nothing play into a 23 yard gain? And then the 5 yard TD reception he made look easy.

He's not going to make a lot on his own as a runner but he bursts through holes when he gets them (see the 8 and 9 yard gains he made). I would not be so high on him if I expected his OL to play like it did last night.

Hmmm, above average as a receiver, average at best running through the tackles. Not a recipe for a fantasy stud IMO. Haven't watched the game but plan to do so later today.

How do we know he is average at best running through the tackles?

Also, part of being a great fantasy football back is opportunity and touches. The thing I think Sankey will prove is his worth as a blocker which will buy him more snaps and more playing time. He is the best rb on that team by a wide margin and it should not take long for him to be a big part of their offense.

Sankey is not an Adrian Peterson type of talent but he was clearly targeted by the Titans to play a big part of their attack going forward. He should be drafted as a RB2 with RB1 upside.

Because we watched him play at Washington. Drafting up as an RB2 seems like a major stretch for this season, IMO. I'd be more happy with him as an RB3/4 and hope for RB2 upside.

Did you watch Shane Vereen when he played at California? He was not impressive to me in the slightest in college but like Sankey what he did best was catch the football and was 'good enough' running the ball.

Sankey tested better than Vereen in every test except the bench, which he still put up an impressive 26 compared to Vereen's 31.

To me, Vereen had more wiggle and better lateral cutting ability in game.

There's no denying Sankey's workout numbers, but as we've discussed ad nauseum in this thread, it just doesn't show up in game.

ETA: His lack of tackle breaking ability showed up a few times last night as well. I think that was one of his biggest criticisms coming in to the NFL.

 

[werdnoynek]

- The average first round RB is 217 pounds with a 30.3 BMI, a 4.44 40, a 35.8" vertical, and a 10'2" broad jump.

Bishop Sankey - 209 pounds, 30.5 BMI, 4.49 40, 35.5" vertical, 10'6" broad jump

This is from your own post and I thought it was a great one.

Sankey misses that average 1st round RB by 8 lbs., .04 in the 40 and 0.3 inches in the vertical. His BMI is above average so even though he weighs less it is proportional to his height.

There are lots of guys floating around with great workout numbers who aren't great running backs and vice versa. When I looked in depth at the numbers, I also found that among the 1st round guys it was best if the player had a clearly defined stylistic leaning. Meaning it was better to be either really small and really fast (like Spiller and Chris Johnson) or to be really big (215-220+ pounds). Sankey is neither here nor there. In a lot of ways he's reminiscent of guys like Donald Brown and Felix Jones. Not big enough to be a power back. Not fast enough to be a speed back. Caught in the dead zone. You could maybe point towards LeSean McCoy or Ray Rice as a cause for optimism, but subjectively I don't see a lot of similarities between those backs and Sankey. From my perspective he's closer to the likes of Donald Brown, Felix Jones, and Tashard Choice.

I did not especially like Sankey as a draft prospect and watching him out there in a few clips tonight, I was not terribly impressed. It's kind of funny how you can watch these guys for months in college without having a 100% concrete take on their prospects, and yet when you see them out there in the NFL there's almost an immediate "aha" or "ehhhh" reaction. Some guys like Andre Williams and Tre Mason just look like they belong. Others not so much. I don't really say it with any great joy, but if you can get market value (~RB15) for Sankey then I'd pounce all day. I don't see the upside to go a whole lot higher than that in the future and there's a very real possibility that his value will crumble if he doesn't flash good talent this year.

Sankey's strength is as a receiver - did you see the catch where he bailed out Whitehurst and turned a nothing play into a 23 yard gain? And then the 5 yard TD reception he made look easy.

He's not going to make a lot on his own as a runner but he bursts through holes when he gets them (see the 8 and 9 yard gains he made). I would not be so high on him if I expected his OL to play like it did last night.

Hmmm, above average as a receiver, average at best running through the tackles. Not a recipe for a fantasy stud IMO. Haven't watched the game but plan to do so later today.

How do we know he is average at best running through the tackles?

Also, part of being a great fantasy football back is opportunity and touches. The thing I think Sankey will prove is his worth as a blocker which will buy him more snaps and more playing time. He is the best rb on that team by a wide margin and it should not take long for him to be a big part of their offense.

Sankey is not an Adrian Peterson type of talent but he was clearly targeted by the Titans to play a big part of their attack going forward. He should be drafted as a RB2 with RB1 upside.

Because we watched him play at Washington. Drafting up as an RB2 seems like a major stretch for this season, IMO. I'd be more happy with him as an RB3/4 and hope for RB2 upside.

When watching him play at Washington it seems that those who doubt Sankey throw out the argument that he only did well running the ball if the O line created a hole for him. Well news flash this is the case for pretty much every RB in the NFL. There are very few rb's that are very good when an O line is not creating holes and even the great ones struggle. The Titans offensive line is quite good and their will be holes there so we should not have to worry about that too much. We also don't know if Sankey is capable of being above average when the O line is not creating holes, so he very well could be fine even if the holes are not there.

Do you think an organization that also watched him play at Washington drafted him as the first RB on the board and thought that he could not run through the tackles? I am not sure there are many teams that draft the first RB in the draft unless they think he can run through the tackles. I get that it may not be his biggest strength, but I am not going to sit here and say Sankey can't run through the tackles.

Once again even last night in limited work and with a low ypc Sankey produced very good fantasy points. That will be the case for him as he gets involved in the passing game.

How don't we know that already? He lacked creativity and ability to get anything more than what was blocked for him in college, how would that change when he comes to the NFL?

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

- The average first round RB is 217 pounds with a 30.3 BMI, a 4.44 40, a 35.8" vertical, and a 10'2" broad jump.

Bishop Sankey - 209 pounds, 30.5 BMI, 4.49 40, 35.5" vertical, 10'6" broad jump

This is from your own post and I thought it was a great one.

Sankey misses that average 1st round RB by 8 lbs., .04 in the 40 and 0.3 inches in the vertical. His BMI is above average so even though he weighs less it is proportional to his height.

There are lots of guys floating around with great workout numbers who aren't great running backs and vice versa. When I looked in depth at the numbers, I also found that among the 1st round guys it was best if the player had a clearly defined stylistic leaning. Meaning it was better to be either really small and really fast (like Spiller and Chris Johnson) or to be really big (215-220+ pounds). Sankey is neither here nor there. In a lot of ways he's reminiscent of guys like Donald Brown and Felix Jones. Not big enough to be a power back. Not fast enough to be a speed back. Caught in the dead zone. You could maybe point towards LeSean McCoy or Ray Rice as a cause for optimism, but subjectively I don't see a lot of similarities between those backs and Sankey. From my perspective he's closer to the likes of Donald Brown, Felix Jones, and Tashard Choice.

I did not especially like Sankey as a draft prospect and watching him out there in a few clips tonight, I was not terribly impressed. It's kind of funny how you can watch these guys for months in college without having a 100% concrete take on their prospects, and yet when you see them out there in the NFL there's almost an immediate "aha" or "ehhhh" reaction. Some guys like Andre Williams and Tre Mason just look like they belong. Others not so much. I don't really say it with any great joy, but if you can get market value (~RB15) for Sankey then I'd pounce all day. I don't see the upside to go a whole lot higher than that in the future and there's a very real possibility that his value will crumble if he doesn't flash good talent this year.

Sankey's strength is as a receiver - did you see the catch where he bailed out Whitehurst and turned a nothing play into a 23 yard gain? And then the 5 yard TD reception he made look easy.

He's not going to make a lot on his own as a runner but he bursts through holes when he gets them (see the 8 and 9 yard gains he made). I would not be so high on him if I expected his OL to play like it did last night.

Hmmm, above average as a receiver, average at best running through the tackles. Not a recipe for a fantasy stud IMO. Haven't watched the game but plan to do so later today.

How do we know he is average at best running through the tackles?

Also, part of being a great fantasy football back is opportunity and touches. The thing I think Sankey will prove is his worth as a blocker which will buy him more snaps and more playing time. He is the best rb on that team by a wide margin and it should not take long for him to be a big part of their offense.

Sankey is not an Adrian Peterson type of talent but he was clearly targeted by the Titans to play a big part of their attack going forward. He should be drafted as a RB2 with RB1 upside.

Because we watched him play at Washington. Drafting up as an RB2 seems like a major stretch for this season, IMO. I'd be more happy with him as an RB3/4 and hope for RB2 upside.

When watching him play at Washington it seems that those who doubt Sankey throw out the argument that he only did well running the ball if the O line created a hole for him. Well news flash this is the case for pretty much every RB in the NFL. There are very few rb's that are very good when an O line is not creating holes and even the great ones struggle. The Titans offensive line is quite good and their will be holes there so we should not have to worry about that too much. We also don't know if Sankey is capable of being above average when the O line is not creating holes, so he very well could be fine even if the holes are not there.

Do you think an organization that also watched him play at Washington drafted him as the first RB on the board and thought that he could not run through the tackles? I am not sure there are many teams that draft the first RB in the draft unless they think he can run through the tackles. I get that it may not be his biggest strength, but I am not going to sit here and say Sankey can't run through the tackles.

Once again even last night in limited work and with a low ypc Sankey produced very good fantasy points. That will be the case for him as he gets involved in the passing game.

How don't we know that already? He lacked creativity and ability to get anything more than what was blocked for him in college, how would that change when he comes to the NFL?

This is where we differ. Last season in 327 carries where he had 1870 yards rushing with a 5.7 ypc you are finding a flaw. You mean to tell me that the only time he was successful rushing the ball is when there was a hole there? Come on now?

The same arguments you are using against Sankey were also used against Shady McCoy coming out of college. He was supposedly not going to be great at running through the tackles as well. He had 308 carries for 1488 for a 4.8 ypc in his last year in college.

Sometimes I think we all see what we want to see. I think Sankey is better than you are giving him credit for rushing the ball. The fact you are able to find a flaw with the first RB taken in the NFL draft that just rushed for 1870 yards and added 304 yards receiving with 21 total tds speaks volumes about what it is you are wanting to see.

 

[cstu]

The first RB drafted who was not drafted in the top 10 (back to 1990):

Sankey (2.54)

Bernard (2.37)

Ingram (1.28)

Moreno (1.12)

SJax (1.22)

McGahee (1.23)

William Green (1.16)

Dunn (1.12)

L. Russell (1.14)

 

[werdnoynek]

The first RB drafted who was not drafted in the top 10 (back to 1990):

Sankey (2.54)

Bernard (2.37)

Ingram (1.28)

Moreno (1.12)

SJax (1.22)

McGahee (1.23)

William Green (1.16)

Dunn (1.12)

L. Russell (1.14)

That's great but what does it have to do with Sankey and the questions he has as a runner?

 

[werdnoynek]

- The average first round RB is 217 pounds with a 30.3 BMI, a 4.44 40, a 35.8" vertical, and a 10'2" broad jump.

Bishop Sankey - 209 pounds, 30.5 BMI, 4.49 40, 35.5" vertical, 10'6" broad jump

This is from your own post and I thought it was a great one.

Sankey misses that average 1st round RB by 8 lbs., .04 in the 40 and 0.3 inches in the vertical. His BMI is above average so even though he weighs less it is proportional to his height.

There are lots of guys floating around with great workout numbers who aren't great running backs and vice versa. When I looked in depth at the numbers, I also found that among the 1st round guys it was best if the player had a clearly defined stylistic leaning. Meaning it was better to be either really small and really fast (like Spiller and Chris Johnson) or to be really big (215-220+ pounds). Sankey is neither here nor there. In a lot of ways he's reminiscent of guys like Donald Brown and Felix Jones. Not big enough to be a power back. Not fast enough to be a speed back. Caught in the dead zone. You could maybe point towards LeSean McCoy or Ray Rice as a cause for optimism, but subjectively I don't see a lot of similarities between those backs and Sankey. From my perspective he's closer to the likes of Donald Brown, Felix Jones, and Tashard Choice.

I did not especially like Sankey as a draft prospect and watching him out there in a few clips tonight, I was not terribly impressed. It's kind of funny how you can watch these guys for months in college without having a 100% concrete take on their prospects, and yet when you see them out there in the NFL there's almost an immediate "aha" or "ehhhh" reaction. Some guys like Andre Williams and Tre Mason just look like they belong. Others not so much. I don't really say it with any great joy, but if you can get market value (~RB15) for Sankey then I'd pounce all day. I don't see the upside to go a whole lot higher than that in the future and there's a very real possibility that his value will crumble if he doesn't flash good talent this year.

Sankey's strength is as a receiver - did you see the catch where he bailed out Whitehurst and turned a nothing play into a 23 yard gain? And then the 5 yard TD reception he made look easy.

He's not going to make a lot on his own as a runner but he bursts through holes when he gets them (see the 8 and 9 yard gains he made). I would not be so high on him if I expected his OL to play like it did last night.

Hmmm, above average as a receiver, average at best running through the tackles. Not a recipe for a fantasy stud IMO. Haven't watched the game but plan to do so later today.

How do we know he is average at best running through the tackles?

Also, part of being a great fantasy football back is opportunity and touches. The thing I think Sankey will prove is his worth as a blocker which will buy him more snaps and more playing time. He is the best rb on that team by a wide margin and it should not take long for him to be a big part of their offense.

Sankey is not an Adrian Peterson type of talent but he was clearly targeted by the Titans to play a big part of their attack going forward. He should be drafted as a RB2 with RB1 upside.

Because we watched him play at Washington. Drafting up as an RB2 seems like a major stretch for this season, IMO. I'd be more happy with him as an RB3/4 and hope for RB2 upside.

When watching him play at Washington it seems that those who doubt Sankey throw out the argument that he only did well running the ball if the O line created a hole for him. Well news flash this is the case for pretty much every RB in the NFL. There are very few rb's that are very good when an O line is not creating holes and even the great ones struggle. The Titans offensive line is quite good and their will be holes there so we should not have to worry about that too much. We also don't know if Sankey is capable of being above average when the O line is not creating holes, so he very well could be fine even if the holes are not there.

Do you think an organization that also watched him play at Washington drafted him as the first RB on the board and thought that he could not run through the tackles? I am not sure there are many teams that draft the first RB in the draft unless they think he can run through the tackles. I get that it may not be his biggest strength, but I am not going to sit here and say Sankey can't run through the tackles.

Once again even last night in limited work and with a low ypc Sankey produced very good fantasy points. That will be the case for him as he gets involved in the passing game.

How don't we know that already? He lacked creativity and ability to get anything more than what was blocked for him in college, how would that change when he comes to the NFL?

This is where we differ. Last season in 327 carries where he had 1870 yards rushing with a 5.7 ypc you are finding a flaw. You mean to tell me that the only time he was successful rushing the ball is when there was a hole there? Come on now?

The same arguments you are using against Sankey were also used against Shady McCoy coming out of college. He was supposedly not going to be great at running through the tackles as well. He had 308 carries for 1488 for a 4.8 ypc in his last year in college.

Sometimes I think we all see what we want to see. I think Sankey is better than you are giving him credit for rushing the ball. The fact you are able to find a flaw with the first RB taken in the NFL draft that just rushed for 1870 yards and added 304 yards receiving with 21 total tds speaks volumes about what it is you are wanting to see.

Using "the first RB drafted" as a blanket argument for any concern that pops up seems mighty convenient. It was well known that this RB class lacked special talent, being the best of this bunch isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

ETA: I'm going to pretend you didn't just compare Sankey and McCoy.

 

[Xue]

I guess Doug Martin proved that he doesn't belong based on last season and so far in preseason, too.

 

[werdnoynek]

I guess Doug Martin proved that he doesn't belong based on last season and so far in preseason, too.

 

[cstu]

Using "the first RB drafted" as a blanket argument for any concern that pops up seems mighty convenient. It was well known that this RB class lacked special talent, being the best of this bunch isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

ETA: I'm going to pretend you didn't just compare Sankey and McCoy.

McCoy's rookie highlights (4.1 YPC that year)

Sankey's 2013 highlights

McCoy has the special ability to freeze defenders with his shiftiness but Sankey can do most of what McCoy can do.

I don't think anyone is saying Sankey will become McCoy but there are similaries and Sankey is in a great position to succeed.

 

[werdnoynek]

Using "the first RB drafted" as a blanket argument for any concern that pops up seems mighty convenient. It was well known that this RB class lacked special talent, being the best of this bunch isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

ETA: I'm going to pretend you didn't just compare Sankey and McCoy.

McCoy's rookie highlights (4.1 YPC that year)

Sankey's 2013 highlights

McCoy has the special ability to freeze defenders with his shiftiness but Sankey can do most of what McCoy can do.

I don't think anyone is saying Sankey will become McCoy but there are similaries and Sankey is in a great position to succeed.

Enlighten me, please.

 

[cstu]

The first RB drafted who was not drafted in the top 10 (back to 1990):

Sankey (2.54)

Bernard (2.37)

Ingram (1.28)

Moreno (1.12)

SJax (1.22)

McGahee (1.23)

William Green (1.16)

Dunn (1.12)

L. Russell (1.14)

That's great but what does it have to do with Sankey and the questions he has as a runner?

I have no questions about him as a runner.

It shows that teams are pretty good at drafting RB's and even when there isn't a 'special talent' in the draft they usually end up being at least decent NFL backs.

 

[cstu]

Using "the first RB drafted" as a blanket argument for any concern that pops up seems mighty convenient. It was well known that this RB class lacked special talent, being the best of this bunch isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

ETA: I'm going to pretend you didn't just compare Sankey and McCoy.

McCoy's rookie highlights (4.1 YPC that year)

Sankey's 2013 highlights

McCoy has the special ability to freeze defenders with his shiftiness but Sankey can do most of what McCoy can do.

I don't think anyone is saying Sankey will become McCoy but there are similaries and Sankey is in a great position to succeed.

Enlighten me, please.

Other than cuts like this Sankey can do everything McCoy does. What do you disagree with?

 

[werdnoynek]

Using "the first RB drafted" as a blanket argument for any concern that pops up seems mighty convenient. It was well known that this RB class lacked special talent, being the best of this bunch isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

ETA: I'm going to pretend you didn't just compare Sankey and McCoy.

McCoy's rookie highlights (4.1 YPC that year)

Sankey's 2013 highlights

McCoy has the special ability to freeze defenders with his shiftiness but Sankey can do most of what McCoy can do.

I don't think anyone is saying Sankey will become McCoy but there are similaries and Sankey is in a great position to succeed.

Enlighten me, please.

Other than cuts like this Sankey can do everything McCoy does. What do you disagree with?

Lets see...

- McCoy is a decisive runner, Sankey often struggles if there isn't an open hole, or if there's more than one option to take.

- To add to #1, McCoy's vision is what makes him one of the best in the game. Sankey struggles with vision. I think it was Waldman that brought this up as well, but in a zone scheme at Washington he seemed to almost shut down when he had options to choose from.

- McCoy reacts to the game around him. With his lack of vision and decisiveness, Sankey's speed is sometimes non-existant, he doesn't get anywhere because he can't see or make a decision on where to go. This is often seen when he gets to the 2nd level where he has trouble eluding CB's and LB's.

- McCoy is a beast in the open field, one of the best. Sankey seems to just run forward to a invisible target in the open field, he doesn't make much happen, again, especially when he gets to the second level and he's up against CB's and LB's.

- McCoy breaks tackles and can run with power despite his size. Sankey struggles with breaking tackles and lacks power as a runner.

- McCoy unbelievable balance as a runner. Sankey, not so much. I think a lot of his problems with breaking tackles has to do with his lack of balance.

- McCoy is great in pass protection. Sankey not so much, he gave up a sack last night against Jarrett Bush - a journeyman CB for the Packers.

 

[werdnoynek]

Here's a cutup I found with all his touches last night against GB, I believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exilBPs2cR0

Watch how easily he goes down against some of the CB tackles and other ankle tackles. Yikes.

ETA: Just looked at PFF - 0 missed tackles with many opportunities for them. McCluster on the other hand had 2 missed tackles on just 3 carries... McCluster also had his best rush between the tackles. Hmm.

 

[Xue]

McCoy is a not a good pass blocker. PFF rating of -4.4 last season. And he only blocked 14.8% of the time. The lowest of any RB playing 25%+ of the snaps. Compare that to Frank Gore who is at 39.8% and was the highest rated at 10.8.

 

[werdnoynek]

McCoy is a not a good pass blocker. PFF rating of -4.4 last season. And he only blocked 14.8% of the time. The lowest of any RB playing 25%+ of the snaps. Compare that to Frank Gore who is at 39.8% and was the highest rated at 10.8.

I'm not sure what % of blocking has to do with ability. He just wasn't asked to block much last season in Kelly's scheme. In 2012, he was the #13 at 35.8%. What does it mean? Not much at all.

Let's remove the pass blocking comparison, Sankey is still nothing like McCoy.

 

[Bronco Billy]

The book on Sankey looks to be right on the money. He is a good athlete who gets what is blocked for him but he can't create on his own. He takes a lot of false steps when a hole isn't immediately available, he gets nothing beyond first contact, and he is brought down easily by even glancing blows.

He can catch for sure and is very effective in space, but this guy does not run like a bell cow RB and does not give his team tough yards.

Looks like an effective part of a RBBC but if he gets a lot of carries his QB is going to be looking at a lot of 2nd/3rd and longs - and given TEN's QB situation that's a recipe for a lot of losses.

 

[Bronco Billy]

And can we please stop with the McCoy comparisons? Sankey can't carry McCoy's jock.

 

[werdnoynek]

The book on Sankey looks to be right on the money. He is a good athlete who gets what is blocked for him but he can't create on his own. He takes a lot of false steps when a hole isn't immediately available, he gets nothing beyond first contact, and he is brought down easily by even glancing blows.

He can catch for sure and is very effective in space, but this guy does not run like a bell cow RB and does not give his team tough yards.

Looks like an effective part of a RBBC but if he gets a lot of carries his QB is going to be looking at a lot of 2nd/3rd and longs - and given TEN's QB situation that's a recipe for a lot of losses.

/Thread

 

[jurb26]

The book on Sankey looks to be right on the money. He is a good athlete who gets what is blocked for him but he can't create on his own. He takes a lot of false steps when a hole isn't immediately available, he gets nothing beyond first contact, and he is brought down easily by even glancing blows.

He can catch for sure and is very effective in space, but this guy does not run like a bell cow RB and does not give his team tough yards.

Looks like an effective part of a RBBC but if he gets a lot of carries his QB is going to be looking at a lot of 2nd/3rd and longs - and given TEN's QB situation that's a recipe for a lot of losses.

/Thread

Thread? Well I guess there's no reason to actually play the regular season or even the remaining preseason games with such an epiphany after 1 preseason game.

 

[werdnoynek]

The book on Sankey looks to be right on the money. He is a good athlete who gets what is blocked for him but he can't create on his own. He takes a lot of false steps when a hole isn't immediately available, he gets nothing beyond first contact, and he is brought down easily by even glancing blows.

He can catch for sure and is very effective in space, but this guy does not run like a bell cow RB and does not give his team tough yards.

Looks like an effective part of a RBBC but if he gets a lot of carries his QB is going to be looking at a lot of 2nd/3rd and longs - and given TEN's QB situation that's a recipe for a lot of losses.

/Thread

Thread? Well I guess there's no reason to actually play the regular season or even the remaining preseason games with such an epiphany after 1 preseason game.

I'm sorry, how selfish of me. Only my mind is made up.

 

[jurb26]

The book on Sankey looks to be right on the money. He is a good athlete who gets what is blocked for him but he can't create on his own. He takes a lot of false steps when a hole isn't immediately available, he gets nothing beyond first contact, and he is brought down easily by even glancing blows.

He can catch for sure and is very effective in space, but this guy does not run like a bell cow RB and does not give his team tough yards.

Looks like an effective part of a RBBC but if he gets a lot of carries his QB is going to be looking at a lot of 2nd/3rd and longs - and given TEN's QB situation that's a recipe for a lot of losses.

/Thread

Thread? Well I guess there's no reason to actually play the regular season or even the remaining preseason games with such an epiphany after 1 preseason game.

I'm sorry, how selfish of me. Only my mind is made up.

Which begs the question of why you would make up your mind on a player so quickly?

 

[Eminence]

Steve Slaton comparison?

 

[werdnoynek]

The book on Sankey looks to be right on the money. He is a good athlete who gets what is blocked for him but he can't create on his own. He takes a lot of false steps when a hole isn't immediately available, he gets nothing beyond first contact, and he is brought down easily by even glancing blows.

He can catch for sure and is very effective in space, but this guy does not run like a bell cow RB and does not give his team tough yards.

Looks like an effective part of a RBBC but if he gets a lot of carries his QB is going to be looking at a lot of 2nd/3rd and longs - and given TEN's QB situation that's a recipe for a lot of losses.

/Thread

Thread? Well I guess there's no reason to actually play the regular season or even the remaining preseason games with such an epiphany after 1 preseason game.

I'm sorry, how selfish of me. Only my mind is made up.

Which begs the question of why you would make up your mind on a player so quickly?

All of the biggest questions I have of him are still there. I was shocked by his combine and ready to see if there was something I missed, but now come game time he looked exactly like he did in Washington. He got a lot of work yesterday and a lot of opportunities to show what he can do, but he didn't. I'll continue to watch, I was just applauding the post. Clearly this is just the beginning, but he is who I thought he was so far.

Guys like Seastruck, McKinnon, Freeman and Mason all confirmed my thoughts on them in just one game. They all did well with their opportunities and showed what I saw in them as prospects.

The one guy who seemed to have proved me wrong is Hyde. I did not like Hyde as a prospect. I think I may have liked Sankey more, but Hyde looked the part in his first game time action. I may have to change my stance on him after seeing him... I'll wait for another game or two though.

I'll wait on Sankey too I suppose.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Here's a cutup I found with all his touches last night against GB, I believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exilBPs2cR0

Watch how easily he goes down against some of the CB tackles and other ankle tackles. Yikes.

ETA: Just looked at PFF - 0 missed tackles with many opportunities for them. McCluster on the other hand had 2 missed tackles on just 3 carries... McCluster also had his best rush between the tackles. Hmm.

So funny how people see things differently when watching the same thing. I thought he looked pretty good, very good on the last drive. I saw several guys in the backfield he made miss as well.

 

[Archer]

Here's a cutup I found with all his touches last night against GB, I believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exilBPs2cR0

Watch how easily he goes down against some of the CB tackles and other ankle tackles. Yikes.

ETA: Just looked at PFF - 0 missed tackles with many opportunities for them. McCluster on the other hand had 2 missed tackles on just 3 carries... McCluster also had his best rush between the tackles. Hmm.

Yeah there were a few bad plays, but I saw several positive plays there too. A lot of carries where he pushed the pile and kept getting positive gain even when he hit a wall. he can obviously catch the ball as well which is great for PPR leagues. Seems way way too early to be down on his prospects in FF this year. If anything, I saw a lot more reasons for optimism. And I only have him in one of of 15 dynasty leagues, so I'm not bias in any way.

 

[EBF]

Greene has two 1000+ yard rushing seasons in the NFL, which is probably more than Sankey will have in his career.

You might want to add this to the bold prediction thread.

The odds of him having a better career than Greene are actually pretty slim.

Here's a list of every RB drafted in the 2nd round from 2003-2012. Guys who have at least two 1000+ yard rushing season are in bold:

Isaiah Pead

LaMichael James

-------------------------

Ryan Williams

Shane Vereen

Mikel LeShoure

Daniel Thomas

-------------------------

Dexter McCluster

Toby Gerhart

Ben Tate

Montario Hardesty

-------------------------LeSean McCoy

-------------------------Matt ForteRay Rice

-------------------------

Kenny Irons

Chris Henry

Brian Leonard

Brandon Jackson

-------------------------

LenDale WhiteMaurice Jones-Drew

-------------------------

JJ Arrington

Eric Shelton

-------------------------

Tatum Bell

Julius Jones

Greg Jones

That's only 4 out of 24, or 16.7%. There are a couple players here who still have a chance to do it (Tate and Gerhart), and the recent odds are almost certainly going to rise when we look back on the Lacy/Bell/Gio/Michael/Ball class in a few years. You could also probably toss out players like McCluster and Leonard who never really seemed to have much hope for becoming bell cow backs. Generally speaking though, any given 2nd round RB is a huge dog to have even a Greene caliber career. Probably no better than 25-30%. If you think Sankey is a Rice/MJD/Forte/McCoy level player then you shouldn't be too worried about the odds, but they don't paint a pretty picture and I'm not a huge believer in his talent aside from that. His RB13 dynasty ADP is actually pretty insane when you think about it. Last year's abnormally high hit rate on the 2nd round RBs (not a single one of them has cratered like Pead or LeShoure yet) might be skewing expectations for this new crop of rookie backs.

The odds of a 2nd round RB having a better career than a 3rd rounder is not good. Makes perfect sense. Do you even realize what you just wrote?Besides, you only say this because you already KNOW what Greene has done. How good could you be at predicting Greene's career that you don't know yet from the point he was drafted on forward? Instead of looking back into time and using data you already know.

In fairness, he wasn't comparing Sankey's potential to Greene's potential as a prospect. He was comparing Sankey's potential to Greene's accomplishments (as we already know them).

Exactly. Greene has already proven that he can win a starting job, last for a few years, and be moderately productive.

As I showed above, that's actually a lot more than what you're going to get from a typical 2nd round rookie RB.

 

[EBF]

Greene has two 1000+ yard rushing seasons in the NFL, which is probably more than Sankey will have in his career.

You might want to add this to the bold prediction thread.

The odds of him having a better career than Greene are actually pretty slim.

Here's a list of every RB drafted in the 2nd round from 2003-2012. Guys who have at least two 1000+ yard rushing season are in bold:

Isaiah Pead

LaMichael James

-------------------------

Ryan Williams

Shane Vereen

Mikel LeShoure

Daniel Thomas

-------------------------

Dexter McCluster

Toby Gerhart

Ben Tate

Montario Hardesty

-------------------------

LeSean McCoy

-------------------------

Matt Forte

Ray Rice

-------------------------

Kenny Irons

Chris Henry

Brian Leonard

Brandon Jackson

-------------------------

LenDale White

Maurice Jones-Drew

-------------------------

JJ Arrington

Eric Shelton

-------------------------

Tatum Bell

Julius Jones

Greg Jones

That's only 4 out of 24, or 16.7%. There are a couple players here who still have a chance to do it (Tate and Gerhart), and the recent odds are almost certainly going to rise when we look back on the Lacy/Bell/Gio/Michael/Ball class in a few years. You could also probably toss out players like McCluster and Leonard who never really seemed to have much hope for becoming bell cow backs. Generally speaking though, any given 2nd round RB is a huge dog to have even a Greene caliber career. Probably no better than 25-30%. If you think Sankey is a Rice/MJD/Forte/McCoy level player then you shouldn't be too worried about the odds, but they don't paint a pretty picture and I'm not a huge believer in his talent aside from that. His RB13 dynasty ADP is actually pretty insane when you think about it. Last year's abnormally high hit rate on the 2nd round RBs (not a single one of them has cratered like Pead or LeShoure yet) might be skewing expectations for this new crop of rookie backs.

What if we compared that to the 1st RB taken in the draft?

Not all draft classes are created equal. Sankey isn't nearly as good as the typical RB1 ala Richardson, Ingram, Spiller, etc.

In general, I think it makes a lot more sense to evaluate a player in terms of his overall draft slot, not in terms of his ranking within his class. Chris Johnson was RB5 in his draft, but still a first round prospect. RB5 this year was Tre Mason. I would not try to argue that Mason is as good of a prospect as Johnson just because his ranking within his class (which is largely dependent on OTHER players, and not on him) was lower.

Here is the draft slot of the first RB taken in the past 10 drafts:

2014 - 54th overall (Sankey)

2013 - 37th overall (Bernard)

2012 - 3rd (Richardson)

2011 - 28th (Ingram)

2010 - 9th (Spiller)

2009 - 12th (Moreno)

2008 - 4th (McFadden)

2007 - 7th (Peterson)

2006 - 2nd (Bush)

2005 - 2nd (Brown)

The main reason Sankey was the 1st RB chosen is because he was fortunate enough to come out in a draft where there were no elite RB prospects. In a typical year he'd probably be more like RB3-RB6 based on his overall draft slot.

 

[EBF]

There are lots of guys floating around with great workout numbers who aren't great running backs and vice versa. When I looked in depth at the numbers, I also found that among the 1st round guys it was best if the player had a clearly defined stylistic leaning. Meaning it was better to be either really small and really fast (like Spiller and Chris Johnson) or to be really big (215-220+ pounds). Sankey is neither here nor there. In a lot of ways he's reminiscent of guys like Donald Brown and Felix Jones. Not big enough to be a power back. Not fast enough to be a speed back. Caught in the dead zone. You could maybe point towards LeSean McCoy or Ray Rice as a cause for optimism, but subjectively I don't see a lot of similarities between those backs and Sankey. From my perspective he's closer to the likes of Donald Brown, Felix Jones, and Tashard Choice.

Small/fast and big are not styles of running. Why are you lumping them together as if they all run the same based on this?

I think when you look at any player you have to ask yourself how he's going to win at the NFL level. Some guys win with speed (C Johnson), some guys win with power (Turner), some guys win with quickness (McCoy), and some guys win with all of those things (Peterson).

If a guy has no standout traits then he has no clear route to success. That's how you end up with a Donald Brown or a Tashard Choice. A guy who can do a little bit of everything, but doesn't have any one single outstanding trait to help him succeed. Those guys usually end up as RBBC fodder/backups in the NFL.

 

[Xue]

Greene has two 1000+ yard rushing seasons in the NFL, which is probably more than Sankey will have in his career.

You might want to add this to the bold prediction thread.

The odds of him having a better career than Greene are actually pretty slim.

Here's a list of every RB drafted in the 2nd round from 2003-2012. Guys who have at least two 1000+ yard rushing season are in bold:

Isaiah Pead

LaMichael James

-------------------------

Ryan Williams

Shane Vereen

Mikel LeShoure

Daniel Thomas

-------------------------

Dexter McCluster

Toby Gerhart

Ben Tate

Montario Hardesty

-------------------------LeSean McCoy

-------------------------Matt ForteRay Rice

-------------------------

Kenny Irons

Chris Henry

Brian Leonard

Brandon Jackson

-------------------------

LenDale WhiteMaurice Jones-Drew

-------------------------

JJ Arrington

Eric Shelton

-------------------------

Tatum Bell

Julius Jones

Greg Jones

That's only 4 out of 24, or 16.7%. There are a couple players here who still have a chance to do it (Tate and Gerhart), and the recent odds are almost certainly going to rise when we look back on the Lacy/Bell/Gio/Michael/Ball class in a few years. You could also probably toss out players like McCluster and Leonard who never really seemed to have much hope for becoming bell cow backs. Generally speaking though, any given 2nd round RB is a huge dog to have even a Greene caliber career. Probably no better than 25-30%. If you think Sankey is a Rice/MJD/Forte/McCoy level player then you shouldn't be too worried about the odds, but they don't paint a pretty picture and I'm not a huge believer in his talent aside from that. His RB13 dynasty ADP is actually pretty insane when you think about it. Last year's abnormally high hit rate on the 2nd round RBs (not a single one of them has cratered like Pead or LeShoure yet) might be skewing expectations for this new crop of rookie backs.

The odds of a 2nd round RB having a better career than a 3rd rounder is not good. Makes perfect sense. Do you even realize what you just wrote?Besides, you only say this because you already KNOW what Greene has done. How good could you be at predicting Greene's career that you don't know yet from the point he was drafted on forward? Instead of looking back into time and using data you already know.

In fairness, he wasn't comparing Sankey's potential to Greene's potential as a prospect. He was comparing Sankey's potential to Greene's accomplishments (as we already know them).

Exactly. Greene has already proven that he can win a starting job, last for a few years, and be moderately productive.

As I showed above, that's actually a lot more than what you're going to get from a typical 2nd round rookie RB.

What Greene has proven is that coaches are willing to stick with mediocre backs.Oh wait isn't Sankey mediocre? I guess the odds of a mediocre 2nd round RB having a career as good as a mediocre 3rd round RB isn't good.

Making more sense each time.

 

[Eminence]

Here's a cutup I found with all his touches last night against GB, I believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exilBPs2cR0

Watch how easily he goes down against some of the CB tackles and other ankle tackles. Yikes.

ETA: Just looked at PFF - 0 missed tackles with many opportunities for them. McCluster on the other hand had 2 missed tackles on just 3 carries... McCluster also had his best rush between the tackles. Hmm.

Yeah, I'm not super impressed with that tape either. He looks plain small and gets absolutely lit up by one defender. The only thing that impressed me was his ability to catch the ball out of the backfield.

Besides that he's got a decent amount of wiggle but there's NO WAY this guy is beating 8 men in the box.

 

[jurb26]

There are lots of guys floating around with great workout numbers who aren't great running backs and vice versa. When I looked in depth at the numbers, I also found that among the 1st round guys it was best if the player had a clearly defined stylistic leaning. Meaning it was better to be either really small and really fast (like Spiller and Chris Johnson) or to be really big (215-220+ pounds). Sankey is neither here nor there. In a lot of ways he's reminiscent of guys like Donald Brown and Felix Jones. Not big enough to be a power back. Not fast enough to be a speed back. Caught in the dead zone. You could maybe point towards LeSean McCoy or Ray Rice as a cause for optimism, but subjectively I don't see a lot of similarities between those backs and Sankey. From my perspective he's closer to the likes of Donald Brown, Felix Jones, and Tashard Choice.

Small/fast and big are not styles of running. Why are you lumping them together as if they all run the same based on this?

I think when you look at any player you have to ask yourself how he's going to win at the NFL level. Some guys win with speed (C Johnson), some guys win with power (Turner), some guys win with quickness (McCoy), and some guys win with all of those things (Peterson).

If a guy has no standout traits then he has no clear route to success. That's how you end up with a Donald Brown or a Tashard Choice. A guy who can do a little bit of everything, but doesn't have any one single outstanding trait to help him succeed. Those guys usually end up as RBBC fodder/backups in the NFL.

Big does not equal power. Fast does not equal good. As DC once told me, "all that speed is doing for you is putting you in the wrong place faster." There is a lot more to it than this.

 

[EBF]

What Greene has proven is that coaches are willing to stick with mediocre backs.Oh wait isn't Sankey mediocre? I guess the odds of a mediocre 2nd round RB having a career as good as a mediocre 3rd round RB isn't good.

Making more sense each time.

I'm not really saying anything complicated or controversial. Shonn Greene has already had two 1000+ rushing seasons in the NFL. The numbers clearly show that, for one reason or another, a random 2nd round RB is unlikely to match or exceed that level or production in his career. You can believe Sankey will be one of the guys who beats the odds. That's your call, but the numbers themselves are pretty straightforward.

 

[EBF]

Here's a cutup I found with all his touches last night against GB, I believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exilBPs2cR0

Watch how easily he goes down against some of the CB tackles and other ankle tackles. Yikes.

ETA: Just looked at PFF - 0 missed tackles with many opportunities for them. McCluster on the other hand had 2 missed tackles on just 3 carries... McCluster also had his best rush between the tackles. Hmm.

Yeah, I'm not super impressed with that tape either. He looks plain small and gets absolutely lit up by one defender. The only thing that impressed me was his ability to catch the ball out of the backfield.

Besides that he's got a decent amount of wiggle but there's NO WAY this guy is beating 8 men in the box.

Yea, I just watched the video. He doesn't look terrible, but he looks very ordinary. Not unlike a Tashard Choice type of guy. Useful. Not a guy who will last as a starter in the league.

Most dynasty lists have him at RB1 in this class. I can't get down with that at this point. Mason clearly looked better in his game. Williams looks like he belongs and Seastrunk showed flashes. I thought West looked okay (not great) last night. I was not able to catch McKinnon's game. Did not get a great feel for Hyde in game #1 and did not see any of Hill's carries. Fair chance they will stand out more though. Add in a wild card like Oliver or Freeman and I don't see Sankey as a top 5 RB in this draft when the dust settles.

 

[az_prof]

Here's a cutup I found with all his touches last night against GB, I believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exilBPs2cR0

Watch how easily he goes down against some of the CB tackles and other ankle tackles. Yikes.

ETA: Just looked at PFF - 0 missed tackles with many opportunities for them. McCluster on the other hand had 2 missed tackles on just 3 carries... McCluster also had his best rush between the tackles. Hmm.

I am not a fan of Sankey based on watching his college highlights. But this clip is actually much better than I expected based on comments above. No, he didn't break tackles, but he did show good footwork and quickness. He also fell forward and managed to get a yard or two even when there wasn't a hole to speak of. And his receiving ability looks far above average; I was impressed by the broken play where he stayed attentive and managed to catch a tough pass and elude the tackler and go for a long gain (starts about the .49 second mark of tape).

 

[rdrouyn]

Here's a cutup I found with all his touches last night against GB, I believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exilBPs2cR0

Watch how easily he goes down against some of the CB tackles and other ankle tackles. Yikes.

ETA: Just looked at PFF - 0 missed tackles with many opportunities for them. McCluster on the other hand had 2 missed tackles on just 3 carries... McCluster also had his best rush between the tackles. Hmm.

Yeah, I'm not super impressed with that tape either. He looks plain small and gets absolutely lit up by one defender. The only thing that impressed me was his ability to catch the ball out of the backfield.

Besides that he's got a decent amount of wiggle but there's NO WAY this guy is beating 8 men in the box.

Looks exactly like his college tape, looks great catching the football, also great when taking it outside. Mediocre between the tackles, slow acceleration. Takes straight up hits way too much for my liking, not a good thing for a smaller back. I do want to see how he does with the ones though before I make any proclamations. I suspect I wont have him on my teams either way.

 

[werdnoynek]

Here's a cutup I found with all his touches last night against GB, I believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exilBPs2cR0

Watch how easily he goes down against some of the CB tackles and other ankle tackles. Yikes.

ETA: Just looked at PFF - 0 missed tackles with many opportunities for them. McCluster on the other hand had 2 missed tackles on just 3 carries... McCluster also had his best rush between the tackles. Hmm.

I am not a fan of Sankey based on watching his college highlights. But this clip is actually much better than I expected based on comments above. No, he didn't break tackles, but he did show good footwork and quickness. He also fell forward and managed to get a yard or two even when there wasn't a hole to speak of. And his receiving ability looks far above average; I was impressed by the broken play where he stayed attentive and managed to catch a tough pass and elude the tackler and go for a long gain (starts about the .49 second mark of tape).

He didn't elude the tackler on the broken play, the tackler fell flat on his face in front of him, he just stepped over him.

 

[az_prof]

Here's a cutup I found with all his touches last night against GB, I believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exilBPs2cR0

Watch how easily he goes down against some of the CB tackles and other ankle tackles. Yikes.

ETA: Just looked at PFF - 0 missed tackles with many opportunities for them. McCluster on the other hand had 2 missed tackles on just 3 carries... McCluster also had his best rush between the tackles. Hmm.

Yeah, I'm not super impressed with that tape either. He looks plain small and gets absolutely lit up by one defender. The only thing that impressed me was his ability to catch the ball out of the backfield.

Besides that he's got a decent amount of wiggle but there's NO WAY this guy is beating 8 men in the box.

Looks exactly like his college tape, looks great catching the football, also great when taking it outside. Mediocre between the tackles, slow acceleration. Takes straight up hits way too much for my liking, not a good thing for a smaller back. I do want to see how he does with the ones though before I make any decisions.

At this point, I see him as a pretty good PPR player. I doubt he will be a featured back who gets a ton of carries and TDs though. This year, I would expect him to be a COP back with Greene and for him to get 4 or 5 receptions a game and 5-8 carries.

 

[ghostguy123]

receptions a game and 5-8 carries.

I would bet a grand to win 5 bucks that barring injury he gets more than that

 

[werdnoynek]

Here's a cutup I found with all his touches last night against GB, I believe.

I'd agree with that if McCluster is hurt.

 

[rdrouyn]

Here's a cutup I found with all his touches last night against GB, I believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exilBPs2cR0

Watch how easily he goes down against some of the CB tackles and other ankle tackles. Yikes.

ETA: Just looked at PFF - 0 missed tackles with many opportunities for them. McCluster on the other hand had 2 missed tackles on just 3 carries... McCluster also had his best rush between the tackles. Hmm.

Yeah, I'm not super impressed with that tape either. He looks plain small and gets absolutely lit up by one defender. The only thing that impressed me was his ability to catch the ball out of the backfield.

Besides that he's got a decent amount of wiggle but there's NO WAY this guy is beating 8 men in the box.

Looks exactly like his college tape, looks great catching the football, also great when taking it outside. Mediocre between the tackles, slow acceleration. Takes straight up hits way too much for my liking, not a good thing for a smaller back. I do want to see how he does with the ones though before I make any decisions.

At this point, I see him as a pretty good PPR player. I doubt he will be a featured back who gets a ton of carries and TDs though. This year, I would expect him to be a COP back with Greene and for him to get 4 or 5 receptions a game and 5-8 carries.

Yeah for PPR he will be great for sure. He will catch 40-50 balls for sure. i bet he gets 12-15 carries a game and 3-5 catches. That makes him a decent RB2 with upside.

Non-PPR however, he doesn't have that upside. I don't think he will get the call at the goal-line too many times. The preseason game did nothing to change my mind about that.

 

[Eminence]

Here's a cutup I found with all his touches last night against GB, I believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exilBPs2cR0

Watch how easily he goes down against some of the CB tackles and other ankle tackles. Yikes.

ETA: Just looked at PFF - 0 missed tackles with many opportunities for them. McCluster on the other hand had 2 missed tackles on just 3 carries... McCluster also had his best rush between the tackles. Hmm.

Yeah, I'm not super impressed with that tape either. He looks plain small and gets absolutely lit up by one defender. The only thing that impressed me was his ability to catch the ball out of the backfield.

Besides that he's got a decent amount of wiggle but there's NO WAY this guy is beating 8 men in the box.

Looks exactly like his college tape, looks great catching the football, also great when taking it outside. Mediocre between the tackles, slow acceleration. Takes straight up hits way too much for my liking, not a good thing for a smaller back. I do want to see how he does with the ones though before I make any decisions.

At this point, I see him as a pretty good PPR player. I doubt he will be a featured back who gets a ton of carries and TDs though. This year, I would expect him to be a COP back with Greene and for him to get 4 or 5 receptions a game and 5-8 carries.

Yeah for PPR he will be great for sure. He will catch 40-50 balls for sure. i bet he gets 12-15 carries a game and 3-5 catches. That makes him a decent RB2 with upside.

Non-PPR however, he doesn't have that upside. I don't think he will get the call at the goal-line too many times. The preseason game did nothing to change my mind about that.

As stated above, you've got to fear that McCluster is going to steal some of his receptions.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Greene has two 1000+ yard rushing seasons in the NFL, which is probably more than Sankey will have in his career.

You might want to add this to the bold prediction thread.

The odds of him having a better career than Greene are actually pretty slim.

Here's a list of every RB drafted in the 2nd round from 2003-2012. Guys who have at least two 1000+ yard rushing season are in bold:

Isaiah Pead

LaMichael James

-------------------------

Ryan Williams

Shane Vereen

Mikel LeShoure

Daniel Thomas

-------------------------

Dexter McCluster

Toby Gerhart

Ben Tate

Montario Hardesty

-------------------------LeSean McCoy

-------------------------Matt ForteRay Rice

-------------------------

Kenny Irons

Chris Henry

Brian Leonard

Brandon Jackson

-------------------------

LenDale WhiteMaurice Jones-Drew

-------------------------

JJ Arrington

Eric Shelton

-------------------------

Tatum Bell

Julius Jones

Greg Jones

That's only 4 out of 24, or 16.7%. There are a couple players here who still have a chance to do it (Tate and Gerhart), and the recent odds are almost certainly going to rise when we look back on the Lacy/Bell/Gio/Michael/Ball class in a few years. You could also probably toss out players like McCluster and Leonard who never really seemed to have much hope for becoming bell cow backs. Generally speaking though, any given 2nd round RB is a huge dog to have even a Greene caliber career. Probably no better than 25-30%. If you think Sankey is a Rice/MJD/Forte/McCoy level player then you shouldn't be too worried about the odds, but they don't paint a pretty picture and I'm not a huge believer in his talent aside from that. His RB13 dynasty ADP is actually pretty insane when you think about it. Last year's abnormally high hit rate on the 2nd round RBs (not a single one of them has cratered like Pead or LeShoure yet) might be skewing expectations for this new crop of rookie backs.

The odds of a 2nd round RB having a better career than a 3rd rounder is not good. Makes perfect sense. Do you even realize what you just wrote?Besides, you only say this because you already KNOW what Greene has done. How good could you be at predicting Greene's career that you don't know yet from the point he was drafted on forward? Instead of looking back into time and using data you already know.

In fairness, he wasn't comparing Sankey's potential to Greene's potential as a prospect. He was comparing Sankey's potential to Greene's accomplishments (as we already know them).

Exactly. Greene has already proven that he can win a starting job, last for a few years, and be moderately productive.

As I showed above, that's actually a lot more than what you're going to get from a typical 2nd round rookie RB.

What Greene has proven is that coaches are willing to stick with mediocre backs.Oh wait isn't Sankey mediocre? I guess the odds of a mediocre 2nd round RB having a career as good as a mediocre 3rd round RB isn't good.

Making more sense each time.

For a guy who portrays himself as the smartest kid in the class, you sure seem to miss the obvious.

Greene has tremendous value to a team. It's not that he's a stud, it's that he's NFL proven to be reliable and dependable. He'll get some push and get you into desirable down and distance on 2nd and 3rd down. That's a significant asset for a team. He increases the odds of a team sustaining drives, maintaining possession, and improving field position. He's solid between the tackles and moves forward, which is an added benefit in short yardage situations. And every once in a while, he has enough to his game that he can break off a long gainer.

His game helps the offense, helps make the QB a little better, and helps the D by giving them a rest. There's a reason why NFL HCs like a guy like Greene even though you miss it. He's not sexy but he's dependably effective. Against a guy like Sankey who may have a greater likelihood of busting off a big play if it's blocked by the book but who also just as easily gains minimal yards if a hole isn't opened for him, Greene becomes a more desirable option for the larger share of the ground work. - because he's more reliable and dependable.

FFers don't understand why a guy like Greene gets as much work as he does. He's not the sexy option and he doesn't post great numbers often. HCs fully understand his value, and that's why he gets the work he does.

 

[Xue]

Greene has two 1000+ yard rushing seasons in the NFL, which is probably more than Sankey will have in his career.

You might want to add this to the bold prediction thread.

The odds of him having a better career than Greene are actually pretty slim.

Here's a list of every RB drafted in the 2nd round from 2003-2012. Guys who have at least two 1000+ yard rushing season are in bold:

Isaiah Pead

LaMichael James

-------------------------

Ryan Williams

Shane Vereen

Mikel LeShoure

Daniel Thomas

-------------------------

Dexter McCluster

Toby Gerhart

Ben Tate

Montario Hardesty

-------------------------LeSean McCoy

-------------------------Matt ForteRay Rice

-------------------------

Kenny Irons

Chris Henry

Brian Leonard

Brandon Jackson

-------------------------

LenDale WhiteMaurice Jones-Drew

-------------------------

JJ Arrington

Eric Shelton

-------------------------

Tatum Bell

Julius Jones

Greg Jones

That's only 4 out of 24, or 16.7%. There are a couple players here who still have a chance to do it (Tate and Gerhart), and the recent odds are almost certainly going to rise when we look back on the Lacy/Bell/Gio/Michael/Ball class in a few years. You could also probably toss out players like McCluster and Leonard who never really seemed to have much hope for becoming bell cow backs. Generally speaking though, any given 2nd round RB is a huge dog to have even a Greene caliber career. Probably no better than 25-30%. If you think Sankey is a Rice/MJD/Forte/McCoy level player then you shouldn't be too worried about the odds, but they don't paint a pretty picture and I'm not a huge believer in his talent aside from that. His RB13 dynasty ADP is actually pretty insane when you think about it. Last year's abnormally high hit rate on the 2nd round RBs (not a single one of them has cratered like Pead or LeShoure yet) might be skewing expectations for this new crop of rookie backs.

The odds of a 2nd round RB having a better career than a 3rd rounder is not good. Makes perfect sense. Do you even realize what you just wrote?Besides, you only say this because you already KNOW what Greene has done. How good could you be at predicting Greene's career that you don't know yet from the point he was drafted on forward? Instead of looking back into time and using data you already know.

In fairness, he wasn't comparing Sankey's potential to Greene's potential as a prospect. He was comparing Sankey's potential to Greene's accomplishments (as we already know them).

Exactly. Greene has already proven that he can win a starting job, last for a few years, and be moderately productive.

As I showed above, that's actually a lot more than what you're going to get from a typical 2nd round rookie RB.

What Greene has proven is that coaches are willing to stick with mediocre backs.Oh wait isn't Sankey mediocre? I guess the odds of a mediocre 2nd round RB having a career as good as a mediocre 3rd round RB isn't good.

Making more sense each time.

For a guy who portrays himself as the smartest kid in the class, you sure seem to miss the obvious. Greene has tremendous value to a team. It's not that he's a stud, it's that he's NFL proven to be reliable and dependable. He'll get some push and get you into desirable down and distance on 2nd and 3rd down. That's a significant asset for a team. He increases the odds of a team sustaining drives, maintaining possession, and improving field position. He's solid between the tackles and moves forward, which is an added benefit in short yardage situations. And every once in a while, he has enough to his game that he can break off a long gainer.

His game helps the offense, helps make the QB a little better, and helps the D by giving them a rest. There's a reason why NFL HCs like a guy like Greene even though you miss it. He's not sexy but he's dependably effective. Against a guy like Sankey who may have a greater likelihood of busting off a big play if it's blocked by the book but who also just as easily gains minimal yards if a hole isn't opened for him, Greene becomes a more desirable option for the larger share of the ground work. - because he's more reliable and dependable.

FFers don't understand why a guy like Greene gets as much work as he does. He's not the sexy option and he doesn't post great numbers often. HCs fully understand his value, and that's why he gets the work he does.

You're the one missing the obvious.

Greene is mediocre. Sankey is mediocre. Therefore Sankey has very little chance to be Greene.

Excellent analysis guys.

 

[Xue]

What Greene has proven is that coaches are willing to stick with mediocre backs.

Oh wait isn't Sankey mediocre? I guess the odds of a mediocre 2nd round RB having a career as good as a mediocre 3rd round RB isn't good.

Making more sense each time.

I'm not really saying anything complicated or controversial. Shonn Greene has already had two 1000+ rushing seasons in the NFL. The numbers clearly show that, for one reason or another, a random 2nd round RB is unlikely to match or exceed that level or production in his career. You can believe Sankey will be one of the guys who beats the odds. That's your call, but the numbers themselves are pretty straightforward.

Unless his name is Christine Michael.

 

[jurb26]

What Greene has proven is that coaches are willing to stick with mediocre backs.

Oh wait isn't Sankey mediocre? I guess the odds of a mediocre 2nd round RB having a career as good as a mediocre 3rd round RB isn't good.

Making more sense each time.

I'm not really saying anything complicated or controversial. Shonn Greene has already had two 1000+ rushing seasons in the NFL. The numbers clearly show that, for one reason or another, a random 2nd round RB is unlikely to match or exceed that level or production in his career. You can believe Sankey will be one of the guys who beats the odds. That's your call, but the numbers themselves are pretty straightforward.

Unless his name is Christine Michael.

Or Tobby Gerhart.