*** OFFICIAL *** COVID-19 CoronaVirus Thread. Fresh epidemic fears as child pneumonia cases surge in Europe after China outbreak. NOW in USA (20 Viewers)

[Eephus]

My sister and brother-in-law held a memorial service yesterday for his mother who passed away due to COVID complications on 12/28/22. She was preceded in death by her husband who died from COVID on 11/3/2020.

 

[Scoresman]

Yeah I know plenty of otherwise intelligent people who just completely ignore the science on many topics, COVID included. It really baffles me.

It’s not just that this subset of people are stupid. You can’t just blame it all on that. I think politics is somehow involved but I would think someone of reasonable intelligence can look at something like a peer-reviewed study and not have politics get in the way.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

BTW Im the only one vaxxed and had the worst of the symptoms. I know its anecdotal but interesting nonetheless

While your story is anecdotal, men's immune response is slightly different than women's, which is one reason why men suffer more from colds and flu.

Hold on a second. Are you telling me that "man colds" are real and not just something for our wives to give us a hard time about? Because I know someone who I would like to share this information with if so.

 

[-fish-]

Yeah I know plenty of otherwise intelligent people who just completely ignore the science on many topics, COVID included. It really baffles me.

It’s not just that this subset of people are stupid. You can’t just blame it all on that. I think politics is somehow involved but I would think someone of reasonable intelligence can look at something like a peer-reviewed study and not have politics get in the way.

There's a good book on the science of why people believe and spread conspiracy theories. Boiled down, it says that humans get very anxious when confronted with a situation where there is a lack of information relating to something that causes stress, whether it's health, money, relationships, whatever. The human brain will accept any solution, even if it is completely non-factual, if it fills the gap and eases the anxiety. We are also hard-wired to spread that solution to others to ease their anxiety. Once a conspiracy is accepted, it is extremely difficult for someone to let it go, even when presented with undeniable facts that refute the conspiracy. Directly confronting the basis of the belief will just make them dig in deeper.

Although the percentage of people that believe in conspiracies is correlated to education level, even at the highest education levels about 25% of people believe in at least one conspiracy.

 

[The Commish]

Yeah I know plenty of otherwise intelligent people who just completely ignore the science on many topics, COVID included. It really baffles me.

It’s not just that this subset of people are stupid. You can’t just blame it all on that. I think politics is somehow involved but I would think someone of reasonable intelligence can look at something like a peer-reviewed study and not have politics get in the way.

There's a good book on the science of why people believe and spread conspiracy theories. Boiled down, it says that humans get very anxious when confronted with a situation where there is a lack of information relating to something that causes stress, whether it's health, money, relationships, whatever. The human brain will accept any solution, even if it is completely non-factual, if it fills the gap and eases the anxiety. We are also hard-wired to spread that solution to others to ease their anxiety. Once a conspiracy is accepted, it is extremely difficult for someone to let it go, even when presented with undeniable facts that refute the conspiracy. Directly confronting the basis of the belief will just make them dig in deeper.

Although the percentage of people that believe in conspiracies is correlated to education level, even at the highest education levels about 25% of people believe in at least one conspiracy.

Then there is social media where it's likely that less than 1% of the people at the origin of the conspiracy theory believe the conspiracy theory themselves, but know that clicks = money and also know what you just said and create all kinds of nonsense to drive revenue.

 

[-fish-]

Yeah I know plenty of otherwise intelligent people who just completely ignore the science on many topics, COVID included. It really baffles me.

It’s not just that this subset of people are stupid. You can’t just blame it all on that. I think politics is somehow involved but I would think someone of reasonable intelligence can look at something like a peer-reviewed study and not have politics get in the way.

There's a good book on the science of why people believe and spread conspiracy theories. Boiled down, it says that humans get very anxious when confronted with a situation where there is a lack of information relating to something that causes stress, whether it's health, money, relationships, whatever. The human brain will accept any solution, even if it is completely non-factual, if it fills the gap and eases the anxiety. We are also hard-wired to spread that solution to others to ease their anxiety. Once a conspiracy is accepted, it is extremely difficult for someone to let it go, even when presented with undeniable facts that refute the conspiracy. Directly confronting the basis of the belief will just make them dig in deeper.

Although the percentage of people that believe in conspiracies is correlated to education level, even at the highest education levels about 25% of people believe in at least one conspiracy.

Then there is social media where it's likely that less than 1% of the people at the origin of the conspiracy theory believe the conspiracy theory themselves, but know that clicks = money and also know what you just said and create all kinds of nonsense to drive revenue.

Sure. It's a type of addiction so if you can create a following, you can keep them clicking and may even be able to sell them stuff. At the very least, you develop a database of suckers.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Yeah I know plenty of otherwise intelligent people who just completely ignore the science on many topics, COVID included. It really baffles me.

It’s not just that this subset of people are stupid. You can’t just blame it all on that. I think politics is somehow involved but I would think someone of reasonable intelligence can look at something like a peer-reviewed study and not have politics get in the way.

There's a good book on the science of why people believe and spread conspiracy theories. Boiled down, it says that humans get very anxious when confronted with a situation where there is a lack of information relating to something that causes stress, whether it's health, money, relationships, whatever. The human brain will accept any solution, even if it is completely non-factual, if it fills the gap and eases the anxiety. We are also hard-wired to spread that solution to others to ease their anxiety. Once a conspiracy is accepted, it is extremely difficult for someone to let it go, even when presented with undeniable facts that refute the conspiracy. Directly confronting the basis of the belief will just make them dig in deeper.

Although the percentage of people that believe in conspiracies is correlated to education level, even at the highest education levels about 25% of people believe in at least one conspiracy.

Then there is social media where it's likely that less than 1% of the people at the origin of the conspiracy theory believe the conspiracy theory themselves, but know that clicks = money and also know what you just said and create all kinds of nonsense to drive revenue.

Sure. It's a type of addiction so if you can create a following, you can keep them clicking and may even be able to sell them stuff. At the very least, you develop a database of suckers.

AND you add to that the fact that most of the social media apps have algorithms that keep feeding you similar content to those you've watched/liked/etc. and it just reinforces the ideologies

 

[fatness]

Fantastic, detailed, destruction, with receipts, of the "vaccinated athletes are dying" nonsense.

I just started to post that thread and you've already done it. Thank you.

 

[fatness]

There's a good book on the science of why people believe and spread conspiracy theories. Boiled down, it says that humans get very anxious when confronted with a situation where there is a lack of information relating to something that causes stress, whether it's health, money, relationships, whatever. The human brain will accept any solution, even if it is completely non-factual, if it fills the gap and eases the anxiety. We are also hard-wired to spread that solution to others to ease their anxiety. Once a conspiracy is accepted, it is extremely difficult for someone to let it go, even when presented with undeniable facts that refute the conspiracy. Directly confronting the basis of the belief will just make them dig in deeper.

And a significant reason many people feel the stress you mention is when "bad things happen to good people". Nobody thinks that everyone in the US who died of COVID deserved it. They need a simple, quick "answer" explaining why it happened in order to feel at ease.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Mixed bag of good/not good from YLE today:

COVID-19 Research Round-up

There are several new scientific developments regarding COVID-19 that might be useful to you for navigating the pandemic. All stem from different COVID-19 “story threads” that I’ve written before. So, here is a quick round-up. Moderna is doing better

yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com

My nuggets of interest:

• New info: Another study confirmed that Moderna induced a better first defense (protection against infection). In addition (and for the first time) we see that it also generated a larger T-cell response (i.e. secondary defense) than Pfizer. This likely impacts downstream outcomes, like duration and strength of protection against severe disease. -- Team Moderna with a W here. I'm Team Pfizer but we'll take any improvements we can get at this point
• New study of hybrid immunity and probability of another large post-Omicron wave like we saw this past summer. TL;DR: The “time” populations are susceptible to COVID-19 will determine the frequency and height of future waves in our “new normal.” This gives hope we’ll eventually see seasonal COVID-19 patterns, like we see with other coronaviruses. This may take a decade, but reprieve is eventually coming.
• She highlights the prison study showing reduction of transmission in recently vaccinated. We've already discussed that in here.
• Lots of SARS-COV-2 found in wastewater from airplanes. That's not necessarily meaning it's transmitting, but you can draw your own conclusions there.
• New study showing that masking in schools works: Schools that lifted masking had an additional 44.9 COVID-19 cases per 1000 students and staff.
• Re: Novavax: The first real-world effectiveness data of Novavax’s COVID-19 vaccine was released in a preprint. It doesn’t look great. Those with a Novavax primary series and/or booster were more likely to get an infection than those with an mRNA vaccine.
• New info: A JAMA study found that the risk of long COVID decreased with vaccination. But after the third shot, protection against long COVID-19 plateaued. More research is needed, as this is surprising. Why does this matter? Don’t rely solely on vaccines to reduce your changes of long COVID. It helps, but after a while, not by much.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

• New study showing that masking in schools works: Schools that lifted masking had an additional 44.9 COVID-19 cases per 1000 students and staff.

"Worked" means a 4.5% reduction in the risk of contracting a (for this population) trivial illness in exchange for two years of learning loss.

Have I mentioned recently that people working in policy-adjacent areas need to a better of job of thinking in terms of tradeoffs?

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

• New study showing that masking in schools works: Schools that lifted masking had an additional 44.9 COVID-19 cases per 1000 students and staff.

"Worked" means a 4.5% reduction in the risk of contracting a (for this population) trivial illness in exchange for two years of learning loss.

Have I mentioned recently that people working in policy-adjacent areas need to a better of job of thinking in terms of tradeoffs?

masking in schools = learning loss? What evidence is there of that?

You have to keep in mind that data scientists and epidemiologists study population-level statistics and trends for the most part. Is it your opinion that during times of high levels of transmission, providing a layer of protection, when taken into account with other possible layers of protection like air filtration/ventilation, wouldn't provide an impact on stopping or greatly reducing transmission of all respiratory illnesses? If 4.5% isn't enough for one of these layers, what's your threshold?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

masking in schools = learning loss? What evidence is there of that?

Come on, man. Tell me that you're with the trade-off. Don't tell me the trade-off isn't there. That's just not a serious positon.

 

[jobarules]

masking in schools = learning loss? What evidence is there of that?

Come on, man. Tell me that you're with the trade-off. Don't tell me the trade-off isn't there. That's just not a serious positon.

2 years of learning loss due to kids wearing masks? Even I don't think that's true. If anything masks cause social issues more than learning loss.

 

[Doug B]

New info: Another study confirmed that Moderna induced a better first defense (protection against infection). In addition (and for the first time) we see that it also generated a larger T-cell response (i.e. secondary defense) than Pfizer. This likely impacts downstream outcomes, like duration and strength of protection against severe disease. -- Team Moderna with a W here. I'm Team Pfizer but we'll take any improvements we can get at this point

I had an immediate question about dosage about this study, and the researchers were good enough to address it in their Discussion section:

The differential effectiveness we report in our study might be explained by the higher mRNA content of mRNA-1273 (50 μg for booster doses, 100 μg for third primary doses) compared with of BNT162b2 (30 μg for booster and third primary doses). Our primary analysis considered any third dose of these vaccines, of which 83% were distinguished as booster doses, and results were similar in sensitivity analyses that were restricted to these.

Before too long, Pfizer should want to conduct dosage trials to see two things: (1) if they can close the efficacy gap with Moderna, and (2) if it makes sense to offer lower or higher dosages of the vaccine depending on individual patient profiles (e.g. age, weight, past reactions to vaccination, etc.).

Moderna should want to trial variable dosages, as well -- one of the factors that keeps people from getting boosters is a bad reaction to the first series vaccinations. Smaller doses may help mitigate those reactions.

 

[Doug B]

masking in schools = learning loss? What evidence is there of that?

Come on, man. Tell me that you're with the trade-off. Don't tell me the trade-off isn't there. That's just not a serious positon.

You're not conflating "masking in schools" with "remote learning", right?

Some of this stuff is age-dependent, too. Kids up until around 2nd or 3rd grade probably were hampered by the teacher wearing a mask (not sure if this can be backed up scientifically, though). At a point, though, when students begin to generally work more independently, I'm not sure classroom masking was all that impactful -- especially if we're assuming the easy-peasy cloth masks that were prevalent through early 2022 as opposed to full-on face-denting respirators.

That's all in opposition to remote learning, Zoom classrooms, etc. -- that seemed to be disastrous for a very high percentage of students.

 

[belljr]

masking in schools = learning loss? What evidence is there of that?

Come on, man. Tell me that you're with the trade-off. Don't tell me the trade-off isn't there. That's just not a serious positon.

2 years of learning loss due to kids wearing masks? Even I don't think that's true. If anything masks cause social issues more than learning loss.

I think the learning thing will wildly vary on age/school system/family.

I 100% agree it caused social issues among kids plus other factors of the time period did as well

 

[the moops]

I think there was some definite learning loss early on from mask wearing, especially among the youngest learners.

 

[Keerock]

While your story is anecdotal, men's immune response is slightly different than women's, which is one reason why men suffer more from colds and flu.

Uh, what about the men that can have babies?

 

[AAABatteries]

• New study showing that masking in schools works: Schools that lifted masking had an additional 44.9 COVID-19 cases per 1000 students and staff.

"Worked" means a 4.5% reduction in the risk of contracting a (for this population) trivial illness in exchange for two years of learning loss.

Have I mentioned recently that people working in policy-adjacent areas need to a better of job of thinking in terms of tradeoffs?

masking in schools = learning loss? What evidence is there of that?

You have to keep in mind that data scientists and epidemiologists study population-level statistics and trends for the most part. Is it your opinion that during times of high levels of transmission, providing a layer of protection, when taken into account with other possible layers of protection like air filtration/ventilation, wouldn't provide an impact on stopping or greatly reducing transmission of all respiratory illnesses? If 4.5% isn't enough for one of these layers, what's your threshold?

I think it was @fatguyinalittlecoat who mentioned that mask wearing did cause some level of disruption in his class, I think in particular with ESL students. I think there's an argument for the tradeoff on this one. I'm not qualified in any way to answer in either direction.

 

[gianmarco]

Even with "trivial" illnesses, that means lost school days for the students and sometimes lost work days for caregivers (both to stay home with younger kids and/or getting sick from them).

It also ignores the downstream effect of passing it to others, missed activities, and increased health visits/health costs.

Even trivial illnesses can have slightly more than trivial consequences. Not every kid with Covid just gets the sniffles for a couple days either.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Even with "trivial" illnesses, that means lost school days for the students and sometimes lost work days for caregivers (both to stay home with younger kids and/or getting sick from them).

It also ignores the downstream effect of passing it to others, missed activities, and increased health visits/health costs.

Even trivial illnesses can have slightly more than trivial consequences. Not every kid with Covid just gets the sniffles for a couple days either.

Sure. And none of those things are worth worrying about relative to stuff like speech development. We should be completely comfortable asking downstream adults to take care of themselves instead of relying on speech-delayed children as a line of defense.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

A new study reveals how a viral toxin the SARS-CoV-2 virus produces may contribute to severe COVID-19 infections.

SARS-CoV-2 viral toxin may make COVID worse

The SARS-CoV-2 spike protein can damage cell barriers that line the inside of blood vessels within organs of the body, researchers report.

www.futurity.org

 

[gianmarco]

Even with "trivial" illnesses, that means lost school days for the students and sometimes lost work days for caregivers (both to stay home with younger kids and/or getting sick from them).

It also ignores the downstream effect of passing it to others, missed activities, and increased health visits/health costs.

Even trivial illnesses can have slightly more than trivial consequences. Not every kid with Covid just gets the sniffles for a couple days either.

Sure. And none of those things are worth worrying about relative to stuff like speech development. We should be completely comfortable asking downstream adults to take care of themselves instead of relying on speech-delayed children as a line of defense.

Sure. Is there any evidence that making kids wear masks causes speech delays?

First thing I found without looking much

 

[Willie Neslon]

Day 16: Finally tested negative this morning. Still dealing with a head cold, slight cough and a little fatigue. That first week was pretty rough but once the fever and chills went away it wasn't so bad. Waiting for my right ear to pop and unclog. Looking forward to integrating back into society. That first beer should taste pretty good.

 

[matttyl]

age 42, pretty healthy. Had primary shots in April 2022, one booster in December 2021, and another in mid 2022. When should I expect to have another? Will likely travel internationally this summer. Thanks.

 

[Doug B]

age 42, pretty healthy. Had primary shots in April 2022, one booster in December 2021, and another in mid 2022. When should I expect to have another? Will likely travel internationally this summer. Thanks.

It looks like you haven't yet had the bivalent booster. You can go get that at any time.

Have you had COVID yet (suspected or confirmed, either way)?

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

age 42, pretty healthy. Had primary shots in April 2022, one booster in December 2021, and another in mid 2022. When should I expect to have another? Will likely travel internationally this summer. Thanks.

When in Mid-22? The bivalent booster which covered the Omicron strains was authorized at the end of August 2022. If yours was prior to that, you can get that one now, if you want. I think 2 months post-infection or post-last-booster is still the recommendation. Not medical advice, but if it were me, I would definitely do so before international travel.

 

[matttyl]

age 42, pretty healthy. Had primary shots in April 2022, one booster in December 2021, and another in mid 2022. When should I expect to have another? Will likely travel internationally this summer. Thanks.

It looks like you haven't yet had the bivalent booster. You can go get that at any time.

Have you had COVID yet (suspected or confirmed, either way)?

Not that I know of. My wife and kid (both of whom I live with) have both had it, my wife really bad, but I haven’t. If I did, it was in February 2019 - before everything.

 

[matttyl]

age 42, pretty healthy. Had primary shots in April 2022, one booster in December 2021, and another in mid 2022. When should I expect to have another? Will likely travel internationally this summer. Thanks.

When in Mid-22? The bivalent booster which covered the Omicron strains was authorized at the end of August 2022. If yours was prior to that, you can get that one now, if you want. I think 2 months post-infection or post-last-booster is still the recommendation. Not medical advice, but if it were me, I would definitely do so before international travel.

Did the last one just prior to international travel in July of 2022. We’ll travel this year around the same time. Did it then as I was under the belief that it was required for travel where I was going, then they dropped those rules literally the week prior to travel.

 

[lod001]

Fantastic, detailed, destruction, with receipts, of the "vaccinated athletes are dying" nonsense.

Not shocked that Peter McCullough was the source of those "stats"

The dude literally said on a video interview last week that, and I paraphrase his quote, "the vaccinated are shedding the vaccine to unvaccinated and making them become vaccinated"

You can't make that stuff up. Or, apparently you can.

whole bunch of people lap this stuff up though....that's the problem. people listen to these goobers instead of digging in and looking at the data/research itself. so lazy.

that's why I was taken back a bit by that Rasmussen poll...understanding the people they typically reach through their process, I thought the number would be well above 50%....that it was under 30% gave me a bit of comfort.

Agreed. He and Robert Malone just recently both got reinstated to Twitter (after being banned for posting misinformation). They have huge followings. They both happen to also have supplements they want to sell you. I have no doubt their misinformation has directly lead to deaths.

I suggest you keep getting boosters then.

American Heart Association Study Shows Link Between Covid Vaccines and Heart Inflammation

"The study establishes further linkage between the mRNA shots and an increased risk of myocarditis in young people by providing a potential biomedical causal mechanism."

beckernews.com

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Wow, the American Heart Association, huh?

The overall risk of myocarditis – inflammation of the heart muscle – is substantially higher immediately after being infected with COVID-19 than it is in the weeks following vaccination for the coronavirus, a large new study in England shows.

The detailed analysis of nearly 43 million people was published Monday in the American Heart Association journal Circulation.

43 million people.

And obviously, this isn't even accounting for the roughly 80-90% reduction in COVID deaths through vaccination.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Still winning each other over in here, eh?

 

[song]

He and Robert Malone just recently both got reinstated to Twitter (after being banned for posting misinformation). They have huge followings. They both happen to also have supplements they want to sell you.

it appears that neither Dr. Peter McCullough nor Dr. Robert Malone have supplements for sale. that didn't sound right, so i googled both "do Dr. Peter McCullough and Dr.Robert Malone have supplements for sale", and "where can i buy supplements from Dr. Peter McCullough or Dr. Robert Malone?"

google had nothing pertinent.

you have my respect for appearing to take pains to be scrupulously honest in your postings, so i don't believe you would intentionally misinform.

i suspect therefore that you are not fully honest with yourself about what you know to be true.

please educate me if i'm mistaken about those guys selling supplements. my guess is you were thinking of Dr. Joseph Mercola, (what is it with all these Dr. M's?), though selling over priced supplements doesn't mean you are necessarily disingenuous or wrong.

 

[-fish-]

He and Robert Malone just recently both got reinstated to Twitter (after being banned for posting misinformation). They have huge followings. They both happen to also have supplements they want to sell you.

it appears that neither Dr. Peter McCullough nor Dr. Robert Malone have supplements for sale. that didn't sound right, so i googled both "do Dr. Peter McCullough and Dr.Robert Malone have supplements for sale", and "where can i buy supplements from Dr. Peter McCullough or Dr. Robert Malone?"

google had nothing pertinent.

you have my respect for appearing to take pains to be scrupulously honest in your postings, so i don't believe you would intentionally misinform.

i suspect therefore that you are not fully honest with yourself about what you know to be true.

please educate me if i'm mistaken about those guys selling supplements. my guess is you were thinking of Dr. Joseph Mercola, (what is it with all these Dr. M's?), though selling over priced supplements doesn't mean you are necessarily disingenuous or wrong.

Sure looks like he's selling supplements to me.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

He and Robert Malone just recently both got reinstated to Twitter (after being banned for posting misinformation). They have huge followings. They both happen to also have supplements they want to sell you.

it appears that neither Dr. Peter McCullough nor Dr. Robert Malone have supplements for sale. that didn't sound right, so i googled both "do Dr. Peter McCullough and Dr.Robert Malone have supplements for sale", and "where can i buy supplements from Dr. Peter McCullough or Dr. Robert Malone?"

google had nothing pertinent.

you have my respect for appearing to take pains to be scrupulously honest in your postings, so i don't believe you would intentionally misinform.

i suspect therefore that you are not fully honest with yourself about what you know to be true.

please educate me if i'm mistaken about those guys selling supplements. my guess is you were thinking of Dr. Joseph Mercola, (what is it with all these Dr. M's?), though selling over priced supplements doesn't mean you are necessarily disingenuous or wrong.

OK, admittedly I haven't searched Malone in a while. At the time of his infamous school board meeting video that went viral, and the time when he wasn't actively even seeing patients, his website (or a website he was listed on...may have been something like the McCullough one linked where it was a partnership type deal) 100% had vitamin supplement "packages" for sale. I read it with my own eyes in researching who this guy was making all the claims that were going against the scientific consensus at the time, because I do try to read everything I can get my hands on in order to form a complete opinion. It appears he has entirely retooled his website now and has moved his grift over to monetizing Substack and making public speaking appearances now, no doubt in part to his rise in "stardom." So I do stand corrected on that Dr. Malone is selling supplements. He's just selling nonsense now. His social media accounts (on all the major platforms) have been suspended multiple times for spreading misinformation. Here's one writeup about him from 2021: https://archive.md/2oCYX

As for Dr. McCullough, I suspect you didn't google far enough: https://www.twc.health/collections/boost-your-immune-system (https://www.twc.health/pages/leadership)

 

[nirad3]

Still winning each other over in here, eh?

Yeah this thread has devolved into pretty much useless jibber-jabber. Haven't visited regularly in months.

Y'all enjoy your mental ping-pong, I'm out.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

pretty good writeup up of all the available data to date on the bivalent booster, including the newest available real-world study data

The bivalent vaccine booster outperforms

A review of the cumulative body of evidence

erictopol.substack.com

and the TL;DR (his summary, not mine):

The Bottom Line​

​

Bivalent boosters work well to prevent severe Covid, as manifest by reduction of hospitalizations and deaths. They are not a panacea, by any means—their efficacy against infections is limited and of short duration, which has been the case for shots since the Omicron variant came along in late 2021.​

​

The spike protein of the BA.5 bivalent more closely resembles XBB.1.5 than the Wuhan ancestral spike. The lab studies with live virus assays are strongly supportive. The clinical data are unequivocal. While it would be far better to have a “universal” pan-β-coronavirus vaccine that worked against all SARS-CoV-2 variants, and nasal vaccines to help block infections, the bivalent BA.5 booster has helped to bridge the big antigenic distance gap from the Wuhan strain to current Omicron subvariants. We’re lucky in the United States to have a big supply and it’s frankly disappointing to see the divisiveness, cherry picking of data, and detractors that defy the body of evidence that has now accumulated. The bivalent booster impact of broadening our immune response has exceeded expectations.​

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

pretty good writeup up of all the available data to date on the bivalent booster, including the newest available real-world study data

The bivalent vaccine booster outperforms

A review of the cumulative body of evidence

erictopol.substack.com

and the TL;DR (his summary, not mine):

The Bottom Line​

​

Bivalent boosters work well to prevent severe Covid, as manifest by reduction of hospitalizations and deaths. They are not a panacea, by any means—their efficacy against infections is limited and of short duration, which has been the case for shots since the Omicron variant came along in late 2021.​

​

The spike protein of the BA.5 bivalent more closely resembles XBB.1.5 than the Wuhan ancestral spike. The lab studies with live virus assays are strongly supportive. The clinical data are unequivocal. While it would be far better to have a “universal” pan-β-coronavirus vaccine that worked against all SARS-CoV-2 variants, and nasal vaccines to help block infections, the bivalent BA.5 booster has helped to bridge the big antigenic distance gap from the Wuhan strain to current Omicron subvariants. We’re lucky in the United States to have a big supply and it’s frankly disappointing to see the divisiveness, cherry picking of data, and detractors that defy the body of evidence that has now accumulated. The bivalent booster impact of broadening our immune response has exceeded expectations.​

Any updates on universal and/or nasal?

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

pretty good writeup up of all the available data to date on the bivalent booster, including the newest available real-world study data

The bivalent vaccine booster outperforms

A review of the cumulative body of evidence

erictopol.substack.com

and the TL;DR (his summary, not mine):

The Bottom Line​

​

Bivalent boosters work well to prevent severe Covid, as manifest by reduction of hospitalizations and deaths. They are not a panacea, by any means—their efficacy against infections is limited and of short duration, which has been the case for shots since the Omicron variant came along in late 2021.​

​

The spike protein of the BA.5 bivalent more closely resembles XBB.1.5 than the Wuhan ancestral spike. The lab studies with live virus assays are strongly supportive. The clinical data are unequivocal. While it would be far better to have a “universal” pan-β-coronavirus vaccine that worked against all SARS-CoV-2 variants, and nasal vaccines to help block infections, the bivalent BA.5 booster has helped to bridge the big antigenic distance gap from the Wuhan strain to current Omicron subvariants. We’re lucky in the United States to have a big supply and it’s frankly disappointing to see the divisiveness, cherry picking of data, and detractors that defy the body of evidence that has now accumulated. The bivalent booster impact of broadening our immune response has exceeded expectations.​

Any updates on universal and/or nasal?

Nothing official that I've seen. I did read one company's (can't recall which one now) post on Twitter this week that said they had applied for funding (something through Operation Warp Speed IIRC).

 

[song]

He and Robert Malone just recently both got reinstated to Twitter (after being banned for posting misinformation). They have huge followings. They both happen to also have supplements they want to sell you.

it appears that neither Dr. Peter McCullough nor Dr. Robert Malone have supplements for sale. that didn't sound right, so i googled both "do Dr. Peter McCullough and Dr.Robert Malone have supplements for sale", and "where can i buy supplements from Dr. Peter McCullough or Dr. Robert Malone?"

google had nothing pertinent.

you have my respect for appearing to take pains to be scrupulously honest in your postings, so i don't believe you would intentionally misinform.

i suspect therefore that you are not fully honest with yourself about what you know to be true.

please educate me if i'm mistaken about those guys selling supplements. my guess is you were thinking of Dr. Joseph Mercola, (what is it with all these Dr. M's?), though selling over priced supplements doesn't mean you are necessarily disingenuous or wrong.

Sure looks like he's selling supplements to me.

thank you for educating me as requested.

 

[song]

He and Robert Malone just recently both got reinstated to Twitter (after being banned for posting misinformation). They have huge followings. They both happen to also have supplements they want to sell you.

it appears that neither Dr. Peter McCullough nor Dr. Robert Malone have supplements for sale. that didn't sound right, so i googled both "do Dr. Peter McCullough and Dr.Robert Malone have supplements for sale", and "where can i buy supplements from Dr. Peter McCullough or Dr. Robert Malone?"

google had nothing pertinent.

you have my respect for appearing to take pains to be scrupulously honest in your postings, so i don't believe you would intentionally misinform.

i suspect therefore that you are not fully honest with yourself about what you know to be true.

please educate me if i'm mistaken about those guys selling supplements. my guess is you were thinking of Dr. Joseph Mercola, (what is it with all these Dr. M's?), though selling over priced supplements doesn't mean you are necessarily disingenuous or wrong.

OK, admittedly I haven't searched Malone in a while. At the time of his infamous school board meeting video that went viral, and the time when he wasn't actively even seeing patients, his website (or a website he was listed on...may have been something like the McCullough one linked where it was a partnership type deal) 100% had vitamin supplement "packages" for sale. I read it with my own eyes in researching who this guy was making all the claims that were going against the scientific consensus at the time, because I do try to read everything I can get my hands on in order to form a complete opinion. It appears he has entirely retooled his website now and has moved his grift over to monetizing Substack and making public speaking appearances now, no doubt in part to his rise in "stardom." So I do stand corrected on that Dr. Malone is selling supplements. He's just selling nonsense now. His social media accounts (on all the major platforms) have been suspended multiple times for spreading misinformation. Here's one writeup about him from 2021: https://archive.md/2oCYX

As for Dr. McCullough, I suspect you didn't google far enough: https://www.twc.health/collections/boost-your-immune-system (https://www.twc.health/pages/leadership)

thank you for (thoroughly) educating me as requested.

 

[Doug B]

Any updates on universal and/or nasal?

Here's a good article from CBS News chock full of over-the-horizon peeks at current COVID research. The current status of nasal vaccines is covered, among other lines of research.

COVID-19 vaccines: From nasal drops to a redesign, what 2023 could have in store (CBS News, 1/9/2023)


Hadn't gone through the articles below yet, but I expect that they also help give the lay of the land of COVID research going into 2023.

Two years after Covid vaccines rolled out, researchers are calling for newer, better options (NBS News, 12/14/2023)

Global Nasal Vaccines Markets and Pipeline Analysis Research Report 2022: A Major Game Changer in Blocking the Transmission of Diseases Such as COVID-19 (Yahoo Finance, 1/10/2023)

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Any updates on universal and/or nasal?

Here's a good article from CBS News chock full of over-the-horizon peeks at current COVID research. The current status of nasal vaccines is covered, among other lines of research.

COVID-19 vaccines: From nasal drops to a redesign, what 2023 could have in store (CBS News, 1/9/2023)


Hadn't gone through the articles below yet, but I expect that they also help give the lay of the land of COVID research going into 2023.

Two years after Covid vaccines rolled out, researchers are calling for newer, better options (NBS News, 12/14/2023)

Global Nasal Vaccines Markets and Pipeline Analysis Research Report 2022: A Major Game Changer in Blocking the Transmission of Diseases Such as COVID-19 (Yahoo Finance, 1/10/2023)

top link is not working GB

 

[Doug B]

top link is not working GB

Fixed now -- I had posted the article title text back into the "Link:" box instead of the URL.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Any updates on universal and/or nasal?

Here's a good article from CBS News chock full of over-the-horizon peeks at current COVID research. The current status of nasal vaccines is covered, among other lines of research.

COVID-19 vaccines: From nasal drops to a redesign, what 2023 could have in store (CBS News, 1/9/2023)


Hadn't gone through the articles below yet, but I expect that they also help give the lay of the land of COVID research going into 2023.

Two years after Covid vaccines rolled out, researchers are calling for newer, better options (NBS News, 12/14/2023)

Global Nasal Vaccines Markets and Pipeline Analysis Research Report 2022: A Major Game Changer in Blocking the Transmission of Diseases Such as COVID-19 (Yahoo Finance, 1/10/2023)

My quick summaries...

From the CBS one: This seems promising. Would like to see their data, other than them just saying "successful trials" in a press release: India has also greenlighted an option produced by Bharat Biotech. Ocugen, that vaccine's American sponsor, hopes to launch trials that could pave the way for a rollout in the U.S. market.

From the NBC one: An encouraging small scale study of a nasal vaccine in China (n=420) of a high-dose spray, low-dose spray, vs typical injection as boosters after Sinovac initial series. Less adverse reaction than injections, and good antibody production. That said, Sinovac is not mRNA, it's inactivated virus. And I believe has shown less efficacy than mRNA, IIRC. But the real caveat here is their quote near the end (which is the same things other study conductors have said: "But unlike in 2020, the federal government’s motivation to fund Covid-related innovations is drying up. Whatever Covid vaccine comes next is likely three to five years off, Miller estimated — or perhaps longer, according to other experts."

From the Yahoo one: Same ominous sentiment: "However, the market is in dire need of the substantial funding required to accelerate the development of nasal vaccines." Can't access the actual report the article references unless you buy a license for $5500 (Leaving that to you @Doug B ) But looks like it's more from the marketing trends angle.

So In summary, I think getting a nasal spray vaccine in the next year or two is all but impossible without renewed funding. My hopes aren't high on that at this point. I also wonder how receptive people (the gen pop) would even be to taking a nasal spray vaccine at this point.

IDK, maybe the pan-vaccine route will yield more fruit. Hope so!

 

[Doug B]

the Yahoo one: ... Can't access the actual report the article references unless you buy a license for $5500 (Leaving that to you @Doug B )

Yeah, that one ended up being kind of a thin rah-rah summary. It's coming from a decidedly non-scientific angle -- looks to me like the main point of the piece is to get investors excited about companies working on nasal vaccines (and not just for COVID).

Well ... those companies DO need cash infusions to keep the research going, it looks like. So from that angle, a hype piece is probably fair.

At the same time, that article probably hypes up nasal vaccines a bit too much compared to the Greek chorus of skeptical researchers. There's promise and hope, yes, but the Yahoo Finance article summary makes it look like effective COVID nasal vaccines will be on a drugstore shelf near you later this year. No way.

 

[Doug B]

IDK, maybe the pan-vaccine route will yield more fruit. Hope so!

Give this route 20 years, and they'll probably end up winning by a nose.

All the famous vaccination efforts that helped curtail and eliminate various modern-world maladies -- polio, measles, mumps, smallpox, etc. -- they didn't latch on the first or second or third vaccine developed and stay with them. Those vaccines continued to get refined and improved for decades.

 

[Doug B]

I also wonder how receptive people (the gen pop) would even be to taking a nasal spray vaccine at this point.

You know how older people go to the doctor way more than young adults? A nasal COVID vaccine (and maybe others) might be a fundamental tool of general senior healthcare by the mid-2030s. So basically, when you're elderly, you go to the doctor for whatever ... and while you're there, they're doing a full-court press (advertising as well as live medical advice) to convince you that a quick nasal COVID vaccine "while you're there" is a good idea.

...

One thing that's going to change a lot about COVID when looking at time frames measured decades: By the time todays college kids, teens, and little kids get to middle and old age, they will have fought off various flavors of COVID several (dozen?) times throughout their lives, much like we do today with legacy coronaviruses, rhinoviruses, et al. By then, COVID really will be "just a flu" (probably even "just a cold") because there just won't be enough naïve immune systems out there to prop it up as a forever-long pandemic.

And with no proof or science backing this up: I don't think COVID will keep spitting out Omicron-level threats multiple times a decade. I think even today, in January 2023, most of the world is a lot less susceptible to a script-flipping variant than it was in November 2021. And IMHO that susceptibility continues to drop like a stone.

 

[jobarules]

I also wonder how receptive people (the gen pop) would even be to taking a nasal spray vaccine at this point.

You know how older people go to the doctor way more than young adults? A nasal COVID vaccine (and maybe others) might be a fundamental tool of general senior healthcare by the mid-2030s. So basically, when you're elderly, you go to the doctor for whatever ... and while you're there, they're doing a full-court press (advertising as well as live medical advice) to convince you that a quick nasal COVID vaccine "while you're there" is a good idea.

...

One thing that's going to change a lot about COVID when looking at time frames measured decades: By the time todays college kids, teens, and little kids get to middle and old age, they will have fought off various flavors of COVID several (dozen?) times throughout their lives, much like we do today with legacy coronaviruses, rhinoviruses, et al. By then, COVID really will be "just a flu" (probably even "just a cold") because there just won't be enough naïve immune systems out there to prop it up as a forever-long pandemic.

And with no proof or science backing this up: I don't think COVID will keep spitting out Omicron-level threats multiple times a decade. I think even today, in January 2023, most of the world is a lot less susceptible to a script-flipping variant than it was in November 2021. And IMHO that susceptibility continues to drop like a stone.

How does this make sense? Kids have the most naive immune systems out there today and covid is basically just the sniffles for them already.