*** OFFICIAL *** COVID-19 CoronaVirus Thread. Fresh epidemic fears as child pneumonia cases surge in Europe after China outbreak. NOW in USA (30 Viewers)

[glvsav37]

Doctors want to save lives. If this works, they will start using it.

problem is that chambers are a lot less in supply than vents and vents seem to be the chosen hero by all the gov't administrations and they cant change their story now.  

I could be wrong, i'm just a dude sitting at home trying to wrap my head around all of this. But I'm confused with how a 80+% rate of death of people on vents, how the narrative by every politician is ventilator, ventilator, ventilator. Even Coumo says that once you are on a vent, it is very unlikely you are coming off. 

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Doctors want to save lives. If this worked, they will start using it.

Conspiracy theories are going crazy on the internet right now.  The idea that the miracle solution is right around the corner or is being hidden is absurd.

Doctors and scientists are trying thousands of different things. That's not a bad thing. And it's certainly not inconceivable that someone will hit on the right answer soon. And it will take a moment for everyone to embrace those right answers.The idea that solutions are potentially around the corner is anything but absurd. 

 

[The Commish]

Any truth to this or hack science

http://web.archive.org/web/20200405061401/https://medium.com/@agaiziunas/covid-19-had-us-all-fooled-but-now-we-might-have-finally-found-its-secret-91182386efcb

Take this for what it's worth GB, but I gave this link to my Anatomy and Physiology professor, NIH Cardiovascular/Heart research supported wife and she basically said, "yes, that's how red blood cells work, but the rest is totally crazy.  Who would say that?  Where'd you get this?".  Then she pointed me to Ninja Nerd Science on YouTube.  They have several things posted that are worth the watch.  As I watch them, the more even I think this theory is "bunk".  Then she rattled off about 10 different reasons why it was bunk, none of which I understood completely.  I'll try to get her to repeat them and I'll record it this time and type back verbatim...it's my only shot at conveying things correctly  

 

[shader]

Doctors and scientists are trying thousands of different things. That's not a bad thing. And it's certainly not inconceivable that someone will hit on the right answer soon. And it will take a moment for everyone to embrace those right answers.The idea that solutions are potentially around the corner is anything but absurd. 

I said miracles not solutions 

 

[Mr Anonymous]

I seriously wish we had a different thread for all the miracle treatments that people continually post.  

I wish you wouldn't take such offense to people speaking their mind and sharing potential good news in the same way people are giving you the space to speak yours.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

I said miracles not solutions 

A solution that comes soon would be a miracle in the eyes of many. I don't care what you call it.

 

[Redwes25]

problem is that chambers are a lot less in supply than vents and vents seem to be the chosen hero by all the gov't administrations and they cant change their story now.  

I could be wrong, i'm just a dude sitting at home trying to wrpa my head around all of this. But I'm confused with how a 80+% rate of death of people on vents, how the narrative by every politician is ventilator, ventilator, ventilator. Even Coumo says that once you are on a vent, it is very unlikely you are coming off. 

Think it is because even someone needs a vent and doesn't get it then the death rate is 100%

 

[the moops]

I seriously wish we had a different thread for all the miracle treatments that people continually post.  

I wish you wouldn't take such offense to people speaking their mind and sharing potential good news in the same way people are giving you the space to speak yours.

Meh - a good 75% of your posts seem to be links or talk of one particualr treatment that has dubious claims. We all want this #### to go away and we want to see friends and not lose jobs and stuff. But there should be healthy skepticism about miracle treatments.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Think it is because even someone needs a vent and doesn't get it then the death rate is 100%

Perhaps they wouldn't die without the ventilator if a different course of un-attempted treatment were pursued. Time will tell.

 

[chet]

Based on today's data that showed many patients benefiting from the drug, CytoDyn applied for emergency approval to the FDA.  Hopefully they will respond quickly.

 

[Maik Jeaunz]

Dr. Drew Apologizes for Widely Shared Claim That Coronavirus Was ‘Press-Induced Panic’

#### you hack

growing up in LA and listening to KROQ, I always liked Drew. he seemed knowledgeable and reasonable.

but he really #### the bed with this one. it seems like he took a stance early on that it was no big deal, and rather than adapt his stance to what was really going on, he dug in his heels to avoid looking like he was wrong. which of course made it WAY worse when things got really bad.

totally changed my opinion of him. and now trying to go back and remove evidence of what he said, yeah...he needs to go hide under a rock for a while.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Meh - a good 75% of your posts seem to be links or talk of one particualr treatment that has dubious claims. We all want this #### to go away and we want to see friends and not lose jobs and stuff. But there should be healthy skepticism about miracle treatments.

Time will tell. Since the vast majority of what I've linked has been related to wearing masks, I'd love to hear why sharing that was a bad idea. And fine be skeptical. But it goes both ways. People could easily be bashing the doom and gloom crowd, but they're refraining. Do us all a favor and stop taking offense to those who embrace signs of hope. I don't know why this needs to be rehashed every 3 days. It's a message board, let be people be hopeful the same way people are allowed to continually say we're nowhere near the end. If you don't agree, don't respond. No one is running out and kissing public door handles because some potential good news is shared on this forum.

 

[beer 30]

Take this for what it's worth GB, but I gave this link to my Anatomy and Physiology professor, NIH Cardiovascular/Heart research supported wife and she basically said, "yes, that's how red blood cells work, but the rest is totally crazy.  Who would say that?  Where'd you get this?".  Then she pointed me to Ninja Nerd Science on YouTube.  They have several things posted that are worth the watch.  As I watch them, the more even I think this theory is "bunk".

Thanks all for the quick responses. I know there isn't a magic pill sitting on a shelf in China or Washington DC but I'm not educated beyond this thread when people start talking about medical stuff. Within about 20 minutes I had six replies and a few stating why this was BS. Now I can comment semi-intelligently to the person that posted this on Facebook.

And speaking of FB, more and more my feed has gone from this lockdown bull####, mah freedom! to holy ####! everyone is dying STAY AT HOME!!! to in the last few days this lockdown is bull#### and the death rates aren't anywhere where they predicted, when can we get back to life?

Kinda scares me that we are going to jump the gun on this and have a resurgence. I'm on a call now with a pretty reputable Doctor from a company my company uses, Work Care. His guidance was, if you are around someone that has tested positive, assuming you don't show signs, within 48 hours you can go back to work. At the first sign of any issue, leave work and go home but it went from 14 days to 48 hours. Also said he was very optimistic given the numbers he is seeing that we will come out of this sooner rather than later.

Edit to add - the doc also said that 3 years of research has been done in the last 3 months and he's never seen a response like this to any other large scale event.

 

[Redwes25]

Perhaps they wouldn't die without the ventilator if a different course of un-attempted treatment were pursued. Time will tell.

They are being treated with it.  Read the other day over 4000 people are receiving it in NYC.  This treatment has been used since January (they started doing it in China). I don't quite get the argument that people are covering up this treatment since it has been used extensively for months and there is some anecdotal evidence it helps but that is it.  Not that it is some sort of panacea.  

 

[skol asylum]

Any truth to this or hack science

http://web.archive.org/web/20200405061401/https://medium.com/@agaiziunas/covid-19-had-us-all-fooled-but-now-we-might-have-finally-found-its-secret-91182386efcb

Didn't read the whole thing but I feel like this idea was brought up in this thread earlier from a different source? Said ventilators were hurting patients and giving O2 was the answer?

 

[joffer]

France turned back into Mr Hyde today.  1300+ deaths after 541 yesterday and 1417 the day before.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

They are being treated with it.  Read the other day over 4000 people are receiving it in NYC.  This treatment has been used since January (they started doing it in China). I don't quite get the argument that people are covering up this treatment since it has been used extensively for months and there is some anecdotal evidence it helps but that is it.  Not that it is some sort of panacea.  

You're talking about hyperbaric chambers, correct? I'm referring to other, simpler therapies and drug cocktails that may turn out to work best that not everyone is trying as yet. It will be sorted in the end. Like others have said, doctors aren't going to ignore what works. It just sometimes takes time to fully embrace the treatment that turns out to be the best.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Edit to add - the doc also said that 3 years of research has been done in the last 3 months and he's never seen a response like this to any other large scale event.

This.

 

[Doug B]

But there should be healthy skepticism about miracle treatments.

Or even a little unhealthy over-skepticism is fine IMHO.

Any "quick" or "easy" solution offered is incorrect until it hops dozens of high hurdles. And then hops them several more times with skeptics tearing it down every step of the way. And then keeps on hopping them.

That's how science works. "Shot of lightning" ideas never really lead anywhere. It's the grinders who willing to work through trials and experiments over and over and over that get their conclusions accepted. In time. Never fast. Ever.

 

[Redwes25]

You're talking about hyperbolic chambers, correct? I'm referring to other, simpler therapies and drug cocktails that may turn out to work best that not everyone is trying as yet. It will be sorted in the end. Like others have said, doctors aren't going to ignore what works. It just sometimes takes time to fully embrace the treatment that turns out to be the best.

No I am talking about your favorite drug - https://nypost.com/2020/04/05/ny-coronavirus-patients-being-treated-with-anti-malarial-drug/

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Or even a little unhealthy over-skepticism is fine IMHO.

Any "quick" or "easy" solution offered is incorrect until it hops dozens of high hurdles. And then hops them several more times with skeptics tearing it down every step of the way. And then keeps on hopping them.

That's how science works. "Shot of lightning" ideas never really lead anywhere. It's the grinders who willing to work through trials and experiments over and over and over that get their conclusions accepted. In time. Never fast. Ever.

Correct. But those "hops over hurdles" are happening at a much more heightened pace. If the right answers happen to be found soon or have already been found, we'll reach those conclusions well ahead of what's normally seen.

 

[Doug B]

Based on today's data that showed many patients benefiting from the drug, CytoDyn applied for emergency approval to the FDA.  Hopefully they will respond quickly.

[skeptic]

The first link you posted earlier gave an outline of a controlled and randomized study CytoDyn had in the near-future pipeline. The FDA may approve ... but the treatment is very far from proven right now. Got to isolate the effects of the drug from other factors. "Patients getting better" sounds to laymen like proof enough ... but we know that it's not.

Thinking about this some more ... does CytoDyn need FDA approval for off-label use of the drug? Hydroxychloroquine/chloroquine didn't.

[/skeptic]

 

[Mr Anonymous]

No I am talking about your favorite drug - https://nypost.com/2020/04/05/ny-coronavirus-patients-being-treated-with-anti-malarial-drug/

And they're still working through many variables with hydroxychloroquine and other similar drugs like the one chet is posting. Variables like dosage, time between treatments, drug pairings, paired therapies, etc. It's the amount of resources and people working on this one virus which lead a reasonable person to believe we'll find answers much sooner than we typically would.

 

[shader]

I wish you wouldn't take such offense to people speaking their mind and sharing potential good news in the same way people are giving you the space to speak yours.

Taking offense?  It's just my opinion.  I'm not a moderator so I don't make the rules.  I'd just like to discuss this thing without having people drop by to share fake medium articles, right-wing fueled hydroxychloroquine articles, or their personal company's medicine and PR announcements.

For me, it gets old.  If you want to bounce from miracle solution to miracle solution, be my guest. 

I suppose as long as we are all following directions and staying quarantined, it doesn't matter what we believe.

 

[shader]

Thanks all for the quick responses. I know there isn't a magic pill sitting on a shelf in China or Washington DC but I'm not educated beyond this thread when people start talking about medical stuff. Within about 20 minutes I had six replies and a few stating why this was BS. Now I can comment semi-intelligently to the person that posted this on Facebook.

And speaking of FB, more and more my feed has gone from this lockdown bull####, mah freedom! to holy ####! everyone is dying STAY AT HOME!!! to in the last few days this lockdown is bull#### and the death rates aren't anywhere where they predicted, when can we get back to life?

Kinda scares me that we are going to jump the gun on this and have a resurgence. I'm on a call now with a pretty reputable Doctor from a company my company uses, Work Care. His guidance was, if you are around someone that has tested positive, assuming you don't show signs, within 48 hours you can go back to work. At the first sign of any issue, leave work and go home but it went from 14 days to 48 hours. Also said he was very optimistic given the numbers he is seeing that we will come out of this sooner rather than later.

Edit to add - the doc also said that 3 years of research has been done in the last 3 months and he's never seen a response like this to any other large scale event.

That should scare you.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Taking offense?  It's just my opinion.  I'm not a moderator so I don't make the rules.  I'd just like to discuss this thing without having people drop by to share fake medium articles, right-wing fueled hydroxychloroquine articles, or their personal company's medicine and PR announcements.

For me, it gets old.  If you want to bounce from miracle solution to miracle solution, be my guest. 

I suppose as long as we are all following directions and staying quarantined, it doesn't matter what we believe.

It must have slipped your mind that you called for a separate thread for the "miracle treatments" just 45 minutes ago.

At some point an announcement of something that works will come. It's a shame you're so irritated by the other side that you want it cast off to a different place.

 

[shader]

Or even a little unhealthy over-skepticism is fine IMHO.

Any "quick" or "easy" solution offered is incorrect until it hops dozens of high hurdles. And then hops them several more times with skeptics tearing it down every step of the way. And then keeps on hopping them.

That's how science works. "Shot of lightning" ideas never really lead anywhere. It's the grinders who willing to work through trials and experiments over and over and over that get their conclusions accepted. In time. Never fast. Ever.

Exactly.  It's especially hard with this virus because 95-98% of people get rid of the virus and don't die.  So when you give people your drug and they "get better", that probably was going to happen anyway.  

Then when you combine that with a drug company that wants to sell stock and it in it for profit, I'm going to double the skepticism.  

Ultimately, my opinion does not matter, but I'm just annoyed by all the miracle therapies being posted in here.  I'm sure some of you are annoyed with those of us that don't jump headfirst into the latest therapy.  

Sorry guys, just my pet peeve.  A potential therapy is NOT good news.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

That should scare you.

Please tell us more about how we should feel.

 

[skol asylum]

Boris Johnson improving. Moved out of ICU.

 

[shader]

It must have slipped your mind that you called for a separate thread for the "miracle treatments" just 45 minutes ago.

At some point an announcement of something that works will come. It's a shame you're so irritated by the other side that you want it cast off to a different place.

It's called a vaccine, and it likely will come in a year.  I'm sure in the meantime, we'll learn things that will help us treat people better...but I think that getting PPE equipment, ventilators, following social distancing guidelines, and staying in our homes will have a bigger impact.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

A vaccine is the final solution. There are many other paths to this dropping far down the list of people's concerns than waiting to the day we wake up to a vaccine.

And I'll add that we're almost assuredly going to take them.

 

[Doug B]

Exactly.  It's especially hard with this virus because 95-98% of people get rid of the virus and don't die.  So when you give people your drug and they "get better", that probably was going to happen anyway.  

Gigantic point that is rarely ever contemplated in reaction to coronavirus stories. Really, as far as research into a COVID-19 treatment goes, this is far and away the most important thing researchers have to account for. "Getting better", by itself, means squat.

 

[msommer]

If New York state was it's own country

It would be second in cases, only behind the rest of USA

It would be 6th in deaths, only behind Italy, Spain, France, rest of USA and the UK.

It would be 7th in total number of tests, behind Rest of USA, Germany, Russia, Italy, UAE and South Korea, slightly ahead of Canada 

It would be 14th in tests per 1m inhabitants

It would be 2nd in deaths per 1m inhabitants, only behind San Marino

It would be 3rd in cases per 1m inhabitants confirmed, only behind the Vatican and San Marino

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Didn't read the whole thing but I feel like this idea was brought up in this thread earlier from a different source? Said ventilators were hurting patients and giving O2 was the answer?

Not a doctor.  This could be wrong.

I saw these stories the other day and reached out to someone I know who knows a lot more than I do about all this.  Her response was that this, and the plasma treatment from people who aren't infected anymore, are legit in terms of further study.  So far she thinks all the insta pharma/vaccine stuff is bull####.

As I understand it, the gist of it is some patients who need vents do have pneumonia and high pressure is the standard treatment for shortness of breath.

However, at least some patients presenting with shortness of breath do not actually appear to be laboring to breath.  It's more like they can breath OK, but aren't getting enough oxygen -- as might happen at altitude.  In those cases lower pressure may help.

Talking Points Memo has a nice write up.  The fact that the chief doc at WebMD, Medscape, the American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care, and Intensive Care Medicine aren't dismissing it out of hand and that multiple front-line docs are stumbling onto similar hypotheses makes it seem like it's a worthwhile thread to pull on.  I'm not sure even the docs interviewed for the story would say much more than that at this point.  They seem appropriately cautious to me.

Like everything else, probably the case no one really knows for some time.

 

[beer 30]

Didn't read the whole thing but I feel like this idea was brought up in this thread earlier from a different source? Said ventilators were hurting patients and giving O2 was the answer?

Pretty much spot on

Taking offense?  It's just my opinion.  I'm not a moderator so I don't make the rules.  I'd just like to discuss this thing without having people drop by to share fake medium articles, right-wing fueled hydroxychloroquine articles, or their personal company's medicine and PR announcements.T

For me, it gets old.  If you want to bounce from miracle solution to miracle solution, be my guest. 

I suppose as long as we are all following directions and staying quarantined, it doesn't matter what we believe.

Cool, I was asking a question and got an answer. Didn't realize I was offending you by posting it or my sharing what a doctor just shared with 1,000 people in my company on a call. And I'm not just dropping by, been in this thread from the beginning. Enough to realize your attitude over the last few weeks has changed dramatically from where it was at the beginning. No need to respond, not looking for an ifight with anybody.

 

[Morton Muffley]

France turned back into Mr Hyde today.  1300+ deaths after 541 yesterday and 1417 the day before.

Par for the course for France.  There numbers have been all over the place for the last week+.  No idea what is going on there, but there is an equally likely chance that tomorrow's numbers suggest anything from: 1) the entire country died of Covid last night or 2) the virus has receded back into the ocean so, Viva La France!

 

[DaVinci]

Exactly.  It's especially hard with this virus because 95-98% of people get rid of the virus and don't die.  So when you give people your drug and they "get better", that probably was going to happen anyway.  

Gigantic point that is rarely ever contemplated in reaction to coronavirus stories. Really, as far as research into a COVID-19 treatment goes, this is far and away the most important thing researchers have to account for. "Getting better", by itself, means squat.

This reminds me of an episode of Kim’s Convenience from a couple weeks ago (funny show that everyone should be binging during lockdown). Some hippie dude was touting the benefits of apple cider vinegar for relieving muscle pain. He said “It’s especially effective when you take it with Advil.” 

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Gigantic point that is rarely ever contemplated in reaction to coronavirus stories. Really, as far as research into a COVID-19 treatment goes, this is far and away the most important thing researchers have to account for. "Getting better", by itself, means squat.

Uncovering drugs that are effective treatments has never been about this magically going away. They're about preventing death, possibly protecting health care professionals, managing the load on the system, reducing hospitalization times, BUYING TIME.

Suggesting people don't understand this and characterizing those who are eager to buy in as "miracle believers" (as some here have done) is incredibly insulting and elitist. 

Drugs, more effective therapies, wider use of PPE, creative ways of collecting data on huge segments of the population, all combine to create ways to restore society while we wait for a vaccine. If anything it is a much more elaborate and nuanced point of view than simply throwing our hands up in the air and saying we all have to stay at home for a year until the magic vaccine arrives.

 

[shader]

Pretty much spot on

Cool, I was asking a question and got an answer. Didn't realize I was offending you by posting it or my sharing what a doctor just shared with 1,000 people in my company on a call. And I'm not just dropping by, been in this thread from the beginning. Enough to realize your attitude over the last few weeks has changed dramatically from where it was at the beginning. No need to respond, not looking for an ifight with anybody.

I don't think my reply was to you?

 

[[scooter]]

A vaccine is the final solution.

Maybe, but the flu vaccines are only effective 40-60% of the time, and only for about a year.

edit: and I only mentioned flu because it was the first thing that came to mind. Perhaps a better phrasing would have been "not every vaccine is 100% effective for life".

 

[Pipes]

Uncovering drugs that are effective treatments has never been about this magically going away. They're about preventing death, possibly protecting health care professionals, managing the load on the system, reducing hospitalization times, BUYING TIME.

Suggesting people don't understand this and characterizing those who are eager to buy in as "miracle believers" (as some here have done) is incredibly insulting and elitist. 

Drugs, more effective therapies, wider use of PPE, creative ways of collecting data on huge segments of the population, all combine to create ways to restore society while we wait for a vaccine. If anything it is a much more elaborate and nuanced point of view than simply throwing our hands up in the air and saying we all have to stay at home for a year until the magic vaccine arrives.

Please keep up your posts.  I find it interesting what various Doctors are trying out there with existing patients.  Of course it's not a miracle cure.  Anything to help existing patient is good news imo.

 

[Nipsey]

Last night I drank some wine and at about 1am I decided to go for a walk. It was glorious. Completely silent, not a car in sight. Walked to Wilshire Blvd, which normally would still have some traffic at that time but there was not a car on the road in either direction. I hadn't been out in a while other than to go to the store. It was very calming. Was taking really deep breaths, getting some fresh air into my lungs. I walk back to my street, still about 1/8 mile from home and on the sidewalk on the other side of the street I see someone walking towards me. As we get closer I see it's a guy,  about 6'5", floppy head of black hair. He's walking pretty fast. When we get to the point where we're going to pass each other I see out of the corner of my eye that he has stopped walking. I look over again as I'm walking and he's just standing there, staring at me. I look away for a few seconds and then I look back and he's still not moving, still staring. It's completely silent. No cars in the distance. No crickets. Nothing. After about 10 seconds I look back over my shoulder and see that he's crossing the street and walking towards me. My calm, happy buzz has turned to panic. Now I'm walking really fast and I hang a left onto a side street. I'm almost running but not quite. I remember I have my keys in my pocket and on the keychain there's a bottle opener that I can use as weapon if need be. I reach into my pocket and grab the keys, look over my shoulder and the guy has followed me down the side street. He's about 50 feet behind me. I start running. I'm a half a block away from Wilshire and i think maybe there will be cars there now. Maybe it'll make the guy stop following me. So i get to Wilshire (no cars), hang a right and look back and see the guy is stopped again. Just standing there, staring. I don't stop running until i get home. Have a keycard in my pocket that opens the garage to my building. I get into the garage, key into the door to the building, take the stairs up and into my apartment. Lock the door behind me. I'm sweating, heart beating about 200 bpm. Puked up the wine in my stomach. Kept looking out the peephole of my front door about every 30 seconds for about an hour. Passed out at some point. Sitting here now wondering if the guy was really following me? or if I was just being paranoid? Maybe he was walking toward his building? Maybe he stopped as to let me pass by before he turned back for home, to make it not seem like he was following me? Maybe he noticed that I kept looking back so he stopped walking again on that side street?

 

[Doug B]

Uncovering drugs that are effective treatments has never been about this magically going away. They're about preventing death, possibly protecting health care professionals, managing the load on the system, reducing hospitalization times, BUYING TIME.

Suggesting people don't understand this and characterizing those who are eager to buy in as "miracle believers" (as some here have done) is incredibly insulting and elitist. 

You are addressing a point I haven't made.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Please keep up your posts.  I find it interesting what various Doctors are trying out there with existing patients.  Of course it's not a miracle cure.  Anything to help existing patient is good news imo.

Thank you. And yes, exactly.

 

[T J]

I seriously wish we had a different thread for all the miracle treatments that people continually post.  

For sure. Much rather have your debbie downer takes on everything. That’s much better. 

 

[shader]

Antibody tests should be available very soon according to Fauci

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/09/830664814/fauci-says-u-s-coronavirus-deaths-may-be-more-like-60-000-antibody-tests-on-way

 

[Mr Anonymous]

You are addressing a point I haven't made.

"Getting better, by itself, means squat".

I beg to differ for a host of reasons which were listed in my response to you. It's one less death, in some cases it adds knowledge, it allows someone to leave the hospital, it builds data. That person may have gotten better with or without a drug, but it certainly doesn't mean squat.

 

[parasaurolophus]

"Getting better, by itself, means squat".

I beg to differ for a host of reasons which were listed in my response to you. It's one less death, in some cases it adds knowledge, it allows someone to leave the hospital, it builds data. That person may have gotten better with or without a drug, but it certainly doesn't mean squat.

He meant in the concept of evaluating a treatment.

 

[Doug B]

"Getting better, by itself, means squat".

I beg to differ for a host of reasons which were listed in my response to you. It's one less death, in some cases it adds knowledge, it allows someone to leave the hospital, it builds data. That person may have gotten better with or without a drug, but it certainly doesn't mean squat.

Not like that.

In the sense of trying to prove efficacy of a treatment. Researchers need to fine-tune their trials enough and repeat the trials enough so that the effect of a treatment is as isolated as possible from all other effects -- including natural healing.

In that sense -- in that narrow sense -- the lone fact that "an individual patient got better" doesn't indicate anything about the tested treatment. Many other facts have to be experimentally collected and brought to bear, and then -- in aggregate -- the researchers might have something.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

He meant in the concept of evaluating a treatment.

I realize that. That's why scientists do a lot more than just simply crediting a drug for a reversal in someone's condition. If it were that simple, we might have a universally chosen drug by now. But there's no doubt that even from the scientific perspective, it adds to the data. It's another case to measure effectiveness of a drug. He said it was a key point that needed to be made as if people were too dumb to realize that sometimes people recover in ways that can't automatically be chalked up to a drug.