***OFFICIAL*** FFA MLB Draft (1 Viewer)

[Sammy3469]

who is up?

I believe Doug B

 

[Doug B]

who is up?

I believe Doug B

Bogart is before me, and I haven't seen his 18th round pick. Did he make it?

 

[Doug B]

who is up? 

I believe Doug B

Bogart is before me, and I haven't seen his 18th round pick. Did he make it?

Never mind, I just saw it. Gimme a sec to catch my list up..

 

[Giant Wooden Badger]

I'm starting a new thread for the post-1994 draft. No way we'll be able to keep it together in here.

Paging trefor3 and oso diablo...

I'm ready for action. Has the new thread been created???

No thread to be found so far....Since Oso-D doesn't care what stadium he gets, I'll pick one. I'm going to pick a newer stadium, since we're choosing more recent players.

PNC PARK

Being from Minnesota, I yearn for these new natural grass stadiums, and I've always been a fan of stadiums with some irregularity.

"The irregularly shaped, natural grass playing field measures 325 feet down the left foul line and 389 feet through the left field power alley. The park reaches its greatest distance of 410 feet at a nook located just left of center field.

The distance down the right field foul line is 320 feet, 375 feet down the power alley, and 399 feet to center field.

The outfield wall rises up to 21 feet behind right field (in honor of the Pirates legendary right fielder #21, Roberto Clemente) and drops down to just six feet in front of the left field bleachers.

From home plate to the Allegheny River is 443 feet, 4 inches"

Sorry, I was trying to track down a Win Shares database. Finally found one and the thread is up.

 

[Doug B]

I'll take ...

18.08 OF/1B Frank Howard

in case my team ever gets into a bar fight (6'7", 255 lbs).

His three highest at-bat seasons coincide with his most productive power seasons:

YR...GMS...AB....R....H..HR..RBI...BB..,SO....BA...OBP...SLG

------------------------------------------------------------

1968.158..598...79..164..44..106...54..141. .274. .338. .552

1969.161..592..111..175..48..111..102...96. .296. .402. .574

1970.161..566...90..160..44..126..132..125. .283. .416. .546

 

[Doug B]

LATEST TWO ROUNDS:

17 257 pumpnick SP Johnny Antonelli

17 258 Spock 3B Edgar Martinez

17 259 lastresort SP Red Ruffing

17 260 Capella 2B Jeff Kent

17 261 Nipsey SP Jimmy Key

17 262 Sammy3469 SP Eppa Rixey

17 263 Pickles SP Jerry Koosman

17 264 Harrier OF Jake Stenzel

17 265 Doug B SS Joe Sewell

17 266 bogart 3B Graig Nettles

17 267 Koya SP Mike Cuellar

17 268 funkley SP Ed Ciccote

17 269 Kraft OF Tony Oliva

17 270 UCONN 3B Robin Ventura

17 271 Spartans RP Dave Righetti

17 272 Larryboy SP Satchel Paige

18 273 Larryboy SP Tim Wakefield

18 274 Spartans 2B Bobby Grich

18 275 UCONN 1B Zeke Bonura

18 276 Kraft 2B Johnny Pesky

18 277 funkley 3B Ken Boyer

18 278 Koya SS Lou Boudreau

18 279 bogart 3B Bill Dahlen

18 280 Doug B OF Frank Howard

18 281 Harrier on the clock

18 282 Pickles on deck

18 283 Sammy3469 in the hole

18 284 Nipsey

18 285 Capella

18 286 lastresort

18 287 Spock

18 288 pumpnick

 

[Koya]

Just checking in - crazy morning getting into the city on cancelled trains I see much progress.

 

[Capella]

Just checking in - crazy morning getting into the city on cancelled trains I see much progress.

yup, think it's time for time limits.

 

[Sammy3469]

I think harriers too hung over from too much ...Squila

 

[Nipsey]

Is Satchel Paige available? (SOD)

 

[Capella]

Is Satchel Paige available? (SOD)

 

[Doug B]

Just checking in - crazy morning getting into the city on cancelled trains I see much progress.

yup, think it's time for time limits.

I thought we'd been having some kind of time limits? 12 hours or something like that?

 

[Nipsey]

Is Satchel Paige available? (SOD)

I'm taking Sadaharu Oh with my next pick. Can put him up against Bonds and Ruth and get the same guy. Not bad for the 300th player taken. Just like Paige in that respect. (SOD)

 

[Doug B]

Is Satchel Paige available? (SOD)

SOD?Some Old Dude?Senior On Decline?

 

[Nipsey]

Is Satchel Paige available? (SOD)

SOD?Some Old Dude?Senior On Decline?

Steal of the draft. At least for the vote. Nice getting a guy (in round 16!) who you can put up against Walter Johnson and argue that your guy was better.

 

[Doug B]

Is Satchel Paige available?  (SOD)

I'm taking Sadaharu Oh with my next pick. Can put him up against Bonds and Ruth and get the same guy. Not bad for the 300th player taken. Just like Paige in that respect. (SOD)

Just you wait ... I'm pulling up stats on 18th-century English rounders as we speak.It's OK for our batters to use a paddle, right?

 

[Koya]

Just checking in - crazy morning getting into the city on cancelled trains  I see much progress.

yup, think it's time for time limits.

I thought we'd been having some kind of time limits? 12 hours or something like that?

We have an 8 hour time limit. I am open to changing that so things move along. What I dont understand is how often people are 5 or less picks away and give no list. Obviously we all sometimes get called away quickly but we seem to have fallen into a pattern and Id hate for interest to wane.

 

[Doug B]

Nice getting a guy (in round 16!) who you can put up against Walter Johnson and argue that your guy was better.

Not to disrespect Paige, but I can draft Pee Wee Herman and argue that he was better than Walter Johnson.Just the fact that you can make an argument is worthless. Anyone can argue anything. The key is to actually convince other people that you are correct.

 

[Nipsey]

Nice getting a guy (in round 16!) who you can put up against Walter Johnson and argue that your guy was better.

Not to disrespect Paige, but I can draft Pee Wee Herman and argue that he was better than Walter Johnson.Just the fact that you can make an argument is worthless. Anyone can argue anything. The key is to actually convince other people that you are correct.

You really think that Paige and Pee Wee Herman were on the same level pitching-wise?

 

[Doug B]

Nice getting a guy (in round 16!) who you can put up against Walter Johnson and argue that your guy was better.

Not to disrespect Paige, but I can draft Pee Wee Herman and argue that he was better than Walter Johnson.Just the fact that you can make an argument is worthless. Anyone can argue anything. The key is to actually convince other people that you are correct.

You really think that Paige and Pee Wee Herman were on the same level pitching-wise?

Not my point.

 

[Politician Spock]

Nice getting a guy (in round 16!) who you can put up against Walter Johnson and argue that your guy was better.

Not to disrespect Paige, but I can draft Pee Wee Herman and argue that he was better than Walter Johnson.Just the fact that you can make an argument is worthless. Anyone can argue anything. The key is to actually convince other people that you are correct.

You really think that Paige and Pee Wee Herman were on the same level pitching-wise?

Not my point.

Replace "Pee Wee Herman" with "Roy Hobbs" and it would make more sense.

 

[Nipsey]

Nice getting a guy (in round 16!) who you can put up against Walter Johnson and argue that your guy was better.

Not to disrespect Paige, but I can draft Pee Wee Herman and argue that he was better than Walter Johnson.Just the fact that you can make an argument is worthless. Anyone can argue anything. The key is to actually convince other people that you are correct.

You really think that Paige and Pee Wee Herman were on the same level pitching-wise?

Not my point.

What is your point? I'm talking about one of the greatest pitchers of all-time here. He was taken in a time of the draft when Jerry Koosman, Jimmy key, Tim Wakefield were taken. I'm saying you can't argue that those guys were as good as say Walter Johnson (the number one overall pick in this thing). You can however make a case that Paige was. That's why I say he was the SOD. That's my point.

 

[Capella]

Nice getting a guy (in round 16!) who you can put up against Walter Johnson and argue that your guy was better.

Not to disrespect Paige, but I can draft Pee Wee Herman and argue that he was better than Walter Johnson.Just the fact that you can make an argument is worthless. Anyone can argue anything. The key is to actually convince other people that you are correct.

You really think that Paige and Pee Wee Herman were on the same level pitching-wise?

Not my point.

What is your point? I'm talking about one of the greatest pitchers of all-time here. He was taken in a time of the draft when Jerry Koosman, Jimmy key, Tim Wakefield were taken. I'm saying you can't argue that those guys were as good as say Walter Johnson (the number one overall pick in this thing). You can however make a case that Paige was. That's why I say he was the SOD. That's my point.

no, he can't argue that.all he can argue is what Paige did in his MLB career, which was nowhere near what The Big Train did.

 

[Sammy3469]

Nice getting a guy (in round 16!) who you can put up against Walter Johnson and argue that your guy was better.

Not to disrespect Paige, but I can draft Pee Wee Herman and argue that he was better than Walter Johnson.Just the fact that you can make an argument is worthless. Anyone can argue anything. The key is to actually convince other people that you are correct.

You really think that Paige and Pee Wee Herman were on the same level pitching-wise?

Not my point.

What is your point? I'm talking about one of the greatest pitchers of all-time here. He was taken in a time of the draft when Jerry Koosman, Jimmy key, Tim Wakefield were taken. I'm saying you can't argue that those guys were as good as say Walter Johnson (the number one overall pick in this thing). You can however make a case that Paige was. That's why I say he was the SOD. That's my point.

Problem is I can argue that this 43 year old pitcher is going to get rocked by my line-up. Plus I have no faith the Larry could argue this point effectively...you maybe...him No

 

[Nipsey]

all he can argue is what Paige did in his MLB career

I think that stance is a bit niave.

 

[Nipsey]

Problem is I can argue that this 43 year old pitcher is going to get rocked by my line-up. Plus I have no faith the Larry could argue this point effectively...you maybe...him No

I don't think the voting public is going to care one bit that the guy is only supposed to be judged on his MLB career. That's my point. Make all the rules you want, nobody will read them anyway. They'll only see two words: Satchel and Paige.

 

[Doug B]

I'm talking about one of the greatest pitchers of all-time here.

Prove it.

He was taken in a time of the draft when Jerry Koosman, Jimmy key, Tim Wakefield were taken. I'm saying you can't argue that those guys were as good as say Walter Johnson (the number one overall pick in this thing).

Granted.

You can however make a case that Paige was. That's why I say he was the SOD. That's my point.

OK ... but I am not expecting the case you make here to convince very many people. Paige is probaly more well-known for pitching into a very advanced age in MLB than he is for his actual Negro League accomplishments.

 

[Koya]

Who cares? We make a big deal about satchel paige, who is by our original rules eligible, yet 1/3 of the teams would prefer to be married to a blind "third year" rule that does far more to push us away from the draft's intent than one pitcher whom you can easily explain to FFA:was 113 when he pitched in the majors.

 

[Doug B]

I don't think the voting public is going to care one bit that the guy is only supposed to be judged on his MLB career. That's my point.

This is true, and I understood this from the get-go.

Make all the rules you want, nobody will read them anyway.  They'll only see two words:  Satchel and Paige.

[inigo Montoya]I just don't think those two words mean to everyone what you think they mean.[/inigo Montoya]

 

[Nipsey]

I just don't think those two words mean to everyone what you think they mean.

Make a poll then."Do you think Satchell Paige was a top 5 all-time pitcher"Bet more people vote yes than no (assuming more than a few people vote).

 

[Sammy3469]

Problem is I can argue that this 43 year old pitcher is going to get rocked by my line-up. Plus I have no faith the Larry could argue this point effectively...you maybe...him No

I don't think the voting public is going to care one bit that the guy is only supposed to be judged on his MLB career. That's my point. Make all the rules you want, nobody will read them anyway. They'll only see two words: Satchel and Paige.

They'll also see Larry and BoyTim and WakefieldBenito and SantiagoMoises and AlouJulio and FrancoDwight and GoodenMaybe if he was on another team I'd agree with you, but I think Larry's team is quickly becoming the Tampa Bay Devil Rays of this draft

 

[Pumpnick]

I just don't think those two words mean to everyone what you think they mean.

Make a poll then."Do you think Satchell Paige was a top 5 all-time pitcher"Bet more people vote yes than no (assuming more than a few people vote).

if you make it top 10 i'll bet on the over

 

[Capella]

Problem is I can argue that this 43 year old pitcher is going to get rocked by my line-up.  Plus I have no faith the Larry could argue this point effectively...you maybe...him No

I don't think the voting public is going to care one bit that the guy is only supposed to be judged on his MLB career. That's my point. Make all the rules you want, nobody will read them anyway. They'll only see two words: Satchel and Paige.

They'll also see Larry and BoyTim and WakefieldBenito and SantiagoMoises and AlouJulio and FrancoDwight and GoodenMaybe if he was on another team I'd agree with you, but I think Larry's team is quickly becoming the Tampa Bay Devil Rays of this draft

:rotflmao: :rotflmao:don't forget Frank and Bernie where they got selected.

 

[Sammy3469]

Problem is I can argue that this 43 year old pitcher is going to get rocked by my line-up.  Plus I have no faith the Larry could argue this point effectively...you maybe...him No

I don't think the voting public is going to care one bit that the guy is only supposed to be judged on his MLB career. That's my point. Make all the rules you want, nobody will read them anyway. They'll only see two words: Satchel and Paige.

They'll also see Larry and BoyTim and WakefieldBenito and SantiagoMoises and AlouJulio and FrancoDwight and GoodenFrank and ThomasBernie and WilliamsMaybe if he was on another team I'd agree with you, but I think Larry's team is quickly becoming the Tampa Bay Devil Rays of this draft

:rotflmao: :rotflmao:don't forget Frank and Bernie where they got selected.

Good Point

 

[larry_boy_44]

Nice getting a guy (in round 16!) who you can put up against Walter Johnson and argue that your guy was better.

Not to disrespect Paige, but I can draft Pee Wee Herman and argue that he was better than Walter Johnson.Just the fact that you can make an argument is worthless. Anyone can argue anything. The key is to actually convince other people that you are correct.

You really think that Paige and Pee Wee Herman were on the same level pitching-wise?

Not my point.

What is your point? I'm talking about one of the greatest pitchers of all-time here. He was taken in a time of the draft when Jerry Koosman, Jimmy key, Tim Wakefield were taken. I'm saying you can't argue that those guys were as good as say Walter Johnson (the number one overall pick in this thing). You can however make a case that Paige was. That's why I say he was the SOD. That's my point.

no, he can't argue that.all he can argue is what Paige did in his MLB career, which was nowhere near what The Big Train did.

and do you really think I plan on pounding stats with Paige??I'm going to go "it's Satchel Paige, the greatest pitcher ever... PERIOD!!!"

 

[Doug B]

I'm going to go "it's Satchel Paige, the greatest pitcher ever... PERIOD!!!"

Based on ... ?

 

[larry_boy_44]

I'm going to go "it's Satchel Paige, the greatest pitcher ever... PERIOD!!!"

Based on ... ?

most of the people voting know who Satchel Paige is...

 

[Nipsey]

Problem is I can argue that this 43 year old pitcher is going to get rocked by my line-up.  Plus I have no faith the Larry could argue this point effectively...you maybe...him No

I don't think the voting public is going to care one bit that the guy is only supposed to be judged on his MLB career. That's my point. Make all the rules you want, nobody will read them anyway. They'll only see two words: Satchel and Paige.

They'll also see Larry and BoyTim and WakefieldBenito and SantiagoMoises and AlouJulio and FrancoDwight and GoodenFrank and ThomasBernie and WilliamsMaybe if he was on another team I'd agree with you, but I think Larry's team is quickly becoming the Tampa Bay Devil Rays of this draft

:rotflmao: :rotflmao:don't forget Frank and Bernie where they got selected.

Good Point

I'm not saying Larry's team is going to be unbeatable because of the Paige pick, I'm saying that the pick was the SOD as far as the vote goes.Didn't we learn anything from the hoop draft? Guys vote based on who they know, not on who's better. I'm assuming that's why Capella took Rose where he did.

 

[Koya]

I'm going to go "it's Satchel Paige, the greatest pitcher ever... PERIOD!!!"

Based on ... ?

most of the people voting know who Satchel Paige is...

I was in support of larry until now.Larry, if you are going to outrightly admit that you are using his non eligible career as a substitute for his MLB service, then I would strike he not be allowed. Since it is too late for that, while I dont have a problem mentioning his Negro leagues personally (as an explanation why he was not pitching in the majors) we must limit discussion of his career by and large to his Majors' experience.If you wanted a sneaky advantage, so be it - but to just flat out say you will skirt a rule here (MLB draft, not all time baseball draft) is not right.

 

[Nipsey]

I'm going to go "it's Satchel Paige, the greatest pitcher ever... PERIOD!!!"

Based on ... ?

most of the people voting know who Satchel Paige is...

I was in support of larry until now.Larry, if you are going to outrightly admit that you are using his non eligible career as a substitute for his MLB service, then I would strike he not be allowed. Since it is too late for that, while I dont have a problem mentioning his Negro leagues personally (as an explanation why he was not pitching in the majors) we must limit discussion of his career by and large to his Majors' experience.If you wanted a sneaky advantage, so be it - but to just flat out say you will skirt a rule here (MLB draft, not all time baseball draft) is not right.

What did he say that was so bad? He didn't mention the Negro League numbers at all. I think "Paige is the greatest ever" is a weak argument, but in this case it works pretty well. You honestly think he drafted him to tout his five years of MLB service at age 48? C'mon people.

 

[oso diablo]

From the original post in this thread...

players are to be drafted based on their complete careers, not on just one good season.

Guys, have fun with it. As Koya alluded, if an all-time draft can include 3-year wonders, it has room for Satchel. In his mid to late 40s, dude was throwing at 24% better than the league average.The balance of the draft did not just crumble.

 

[Doug B]

I'm going to go "it's Satchel Paige, the greatest pitcher ever... PERIOD!!!"

Based on ... ?

most of the people voting know who Satchel Paige is...

OK ... what else now?Food for thought -- here is an article about Bill James' speculative ranking of all-time Negro League ballplayers alongside all-time MLB players. The author is pimping the Negro Leaguers strongly throughout the article, but then pulls the string back regarding Paige:

Satchel Paige was not the best Negro League pitcher. Bullet Joe Rogan was. Satch had the color and got the ink, but there were better pitchers than he was. At 5'6", Joe didn't stand as high as the letters on Babe Ruth's chest and weighed 40 pounds less than the Babe, but he ranks with Ruth as the best double-threat man, hitting and pitching, in North American history.

The author, John Holway, unlike most voters here, actually watched plenty of Negro League games live.Also -- an interesting letter written to USA Today in 2001:

James' rankings rank

Bill James' method (Cover Story, Nov. 21-27 issue) claims he takes two "adjustments" at the end. I recommend he make four more adjustments.

The first could be called a "political adjustment." The man he claims is the second-best pitcher in history, Satchel Paige, had a career major league record of 28-31, 3.29 ERA. Yes, I know those were all over the age of 40. But another pitcher, after the age of 40, was 66-61, 3.30 with 1,391 strikeouts (leading the league four times), and is nowhere to be found on the Top 100. Certainly no one would suppose that there should be any room in the Top 100 for either this man, Nolan Ryan, nor Randy Johnson with his 200 wins and 3,400 strikeouts. Right?

In the Negro leagues, Paige was 124-80 (.608). Juan Marichal, in the major leagues, was 243-142 (.631). But, of course, no room for Marichal either.

The next adjustment James needs is a "pitcher adjustment." Did you notice that, according to James, exactly one of the top 16 was a pitcher? That exactly five pitchers in history have been better ballplayers than Craig Biggio? And the 19 or 20 (depending on which way you count Martin Dihigo) pitchers that comprise the top 100 are exactly half the percentage of pitchers that historically make up major league rosters?

The third adjustment is a "reliever adjustment." Did you count the relievers on the list? Don't waste your time; there aren't any.

The final adjustment concerns James' "subjective adjustment." As to the scientific validity of a statistical tool when you put in a final category that says, "If there are any results I don't like, I'll just fudge 'em around till I do like them," I don't even need to comment on this. I'll let the smirks on the faces of every scientist in the country say it all.

Ron Bown

Wellsville, Ohio

...Now then: the above are just opinions. That's true. Still, I think the presence of such opinions, especially among those who have witnessed the Negro Leagues firsthand, demonstrate that there is, in fact, true disagreement about exactly how good Satchel Paige actually was. No one denies Paige was an excellent player -- but not everyone is willing deify him.

 

[Koya]

So lets see.... Paige was overated and never had a chance before his late age to pitch in the majors. In context of this draft, he was maybe an above average reliever. If you think Paige is an alltime great (1) he probably was not as good as the legend and (2) however good he was, doesnt matter except his years in MLB, which were ok. But not great.That seems a simple arguement that 90% of the ffa will understand.

 

[Nipsey]

So lets see.... Paige was overated and never had a chance before his late age to pitch in the majors. In context of this draft, he was maybe an above average reliever. If you think Paige is an alltime great (1) he probably was not as good as the legend and (2) however good he was, doesnt matter except his years in MLB, which were ok. But not great.

That seems a simple arguement that 90% 10% of the ffa will understand.

Fixed.

 

[larry_boy_44]

I'm going to go "it's Satchel Paige, the greatest pitcher ever... PERIOD!!!"

Based on ... ?

most of the people voting know who Satchel Paige is...

I was in support of larry until now.Larry, if you are going to outrightly admit that you are using his non eligible career as a substitute for his MLB service, then I would strike he not be allowed. Since it is too late for that, while I dont have a problem mentioning his Negro leagues personally (as an explanation why he was not pitching in the majors) we must limit discussion of his career by and large to his Majors' experience.If you wanted a sneaky advantage, so be it - but to just flat out say you will skirt a rule here (MLB draft, not all time baseball draft) is not right.

its not... I'm going to say "I'm pitching Satchel Paige"...he is one of the greatest pitchers ever and he qualifies...I'll pro'lly start him based on name, I might not... I haven't totally decided yet...But I'm not breaking any rules, I'm not going to mention his Negro League career, I pro'lly won't mention any stats... I'll just say "Satchel Paige"...

 

[Doug B]

But I'm not breaking any rules, I'm not going to mention his Negro League career, I pro'lly won't mention any stats... I'll just say "Satchel Paige"...

I'm not convinced that will be enough. But I don't have a problem with you giving it a try.

 

[Funkley]

There's only one reason to draft a guy with 28 career wins and 476 career innings but with that said anyone else could have taken him. It's a good move. Surprisingly, shockingly, astoundingly clever move.

 

[Kraft...]

Didn't we learn anything from the hoop draft? Guys vote based on who they know, not on who's better.

The best team won in the end

 

[Politician Spock]

But I'm not breaking any rules, I'm not going to mention his Negro League career, I pro'lly won't mention any stats... I'll just say "Satchel Paige"...

I'm not convinced that will be enough. But I don't have a problem with you giving it a try.

I think he and Nipsey are overestimating it as well. 15 guys in here who know baseball took 270 players before him. Maybe we let him slide a few rounds too long given that his name does have some clout, but people who know baseball know that Satchel Paige didn't accomplish anything in MLB other than pitch in his 40's. Those who would equate Paige to Walter Johnson in the vote are also the ones equating Fruit Loops to Lucky Charms. Perhaps that is 90% of the FFA, but I think that is an overestimation.

 

[larry_boy_44]

But I'm not breaking any rules, I'm not going to mention his Negro League career, I pro'lly won't mention any stats... I'll just say "Satchel Paige"...

I'm not convinced that will be enough. But I don't have a problem with you giving it a try.

I think he and Nipsey are overestimating it as well. 15 guys in here who know baseball took 270 players before him. Maybe we let him slide a few rounds too long given that his name does have some clout, but people who know baseball know that Satchel Paige didn't accomplish anything in MLB other than pitch in his 40's. Those would equate Paige to Walter Johnson in the vote are also the ones equating Fruit Loops to Lucky Charms. Perhaps that is 90% of the FFA, but I think that is an overestimation.

your forgetting that Paige is my #5 starter at best... well, maybe #4 lol, not sure if I'd put him over Gooden or not...