***OFFICIAL GUN CONTROL DEBATE*** (5 Viewers)

[Ursa M]

Can we get past the semi-automatic vs fully automatic weapon semantic BS?

What is the BS? The guns function totally different. If someone wants to ban assault rifles, well they are already banned!!

As a society, do you feel we have too many gun laws, not enough or have it exactly right currently?

I think we have enough laws, but I think they could do a better job enforcing them.

Rewind the clock a few days/weeks. What laws on the books would have saved those kids' lives yesterday? How would you have suggested they be enforced differently. If you don't have an answer to either question (preferably both), then we obviously need more laws. Because, what happened yesterday is part of a pattern that is inexcusable. And, to be perfectly frank, we all share responsibility for not doing enough to protect those kids; perhaps you for being an ardent gun supporter and certainly me for not doing enough in the past to get them out circulation.

No laws can protect someone crazy enough from carrying out what happened. The guy could have made a simple bomb out of fertilizer material and blown everyone up. Let's start looking at what causes this type of behavior. Turn off the TV and pay attention to those around you. There are warning signs but everyone is too busy to notice.As far as laws that could be enforced better? Felons owning a gun would be a great place to start.

This is the ultimate straw man argument. Equating gun use with putting together a bomb is fallacious.

 

[Jefferson the Caregiver]

The US has almost 9 guns for every 10 people, sorry but that is too high.

Interesting because I don't know that many people personally that own guns. The case seems to be that those who have them have multiple guns.

I can't see it hurting if some of these guns got taken out of circulation. Is owning multiple guns necessary?

 

[The Dude]

Dodds spot on. Make it a 5-10 year felony if you are caught possessing an assault rifle.

It may have been mentioned (reading through the thread) - but I would hold the seller of an assault weapon accountable for any future actions involving that gun. So whoever sold that gun to this kid would be in it deep. Legal sale or black market.And that gun sale never takes place.

It's already a felony offense to own an assault rifle.

Should be to sell one too - but the seller should assumea the penalty of actions committed by the buyer

 

[cobalt_27]

Can we get past the semi-automatic vs fully automatic weapon semantic BS?

What is the BS? The guns function totally different. If someone wants to ban assault rifles, well they are already banned!!

As a society, do you feel we have too many gun laws, not enough or have it exactly right currently?

I think we have enough laws, but I think they could do a better job enforcing them.

Rewind the clock a few days/weeks. What laws on the books would have saved those kids' lives yesterday? How would you have suggested they be enforced differently. If you don't have an answer to either question (preferably both), then we obviously need more laws. Because, what happened yesterday is part of a pattern that is inexcusable. And, to be perfectly frank, we all share responsibility for not doing enough to protect those kids; perhaps you for being an ardent gun supporter and certainly me for not doing enough in the past to get them out circulation.

I asked Tso this earlier but he didn't respond, so I'll ask you (any other person who thinks we need to get rid of all semi-automatic weapons can also respond.)If all the semi-automatic guns are banned and confiscated, what do we do when these incidents happen with revolvers and pump action shotguns?

There is absolutely no reason for a normal everyday citizen to own a pump action shot gun. Not any more reason than to own a hand grenade or an missile launcher. Absolutely insane. So, let's start with the semi-automatic guns, pump action shotguns and see what happens from there. And, my god, let's get some licensing requirements to own any firearm. The process to register to vote, to get a driver's license, to apply for college....it's more difficult to do any of this than it is to walk into WalMart and buy a gun. That's ### backwards.

 

[jafo]

The US has almost 9 guns for every 10 people, sorry but that is too high. Interesting because I don't know that many people personally that own guns. The case seems to be that those who have them have multiple guns. I can't see it hurting if some of these guns got taken out of circulation. Is owning multiple guns necessary?

Of course. I could have a shotgun for home defense, another shotgun made for shooting clay birds. Multiple hunting rifles for different types of game. A handgun for concealed carry. The list goes on..

 

[jafo]

Can we get past the semi-automatic vs fully automatic weapon semantic BS?

What is the BS? The guns function totally different. If someone wants to ban assault rifles, well they are already banned!!

As a society, do you feel we have too many gun laws, not enough or have it exactly right currently?

I think we have enough laws, but I think they could do a better job enforcing them.

Rewind the clock a few days/weeks. What laws on the books would have saved those kids' lives yesterday? How would you have suggested they be enforced differently. If you don't have an answer to either question (preferably both), then we obviously need more laws. Because, what happened yesterday is part of a pattern that is inexcusable. And, to be perfectly frank, we all share responsibility for not doing enough to protect those kids; perhaps you for being an ardent gun supporter and certainly me for not doing enough in the past to get them out circulation.

I asked Tso this earlier but he didn't respond, so I'll ask you (any other person who thinks we need to get rid of all semi-automatic weapons can also respond.)If all the semi-automatic guns are banned and confiscated, what do we do when these incidents happen with revolvers and pump action shotguns?

There is absolutely no reason for a normal everyday citizen to own a pump action shot gun. Not any more reason than to own a hand grenade or an missile launcher. Absolutely insane. So, let's start with the semi-automatic guns, pump action shotguns and see what happens from there. And, my god, let's get some licensing requirements to own any firearm. The process to register to vote, to get a driver's license, to apply for college....it's more difficult to do any of this than it is to walk into WalMart and buy a gun. That's ### backwards.

Absolutely no reason to own a pump action shot gun? Are you joking? The sound of one pump of a shotgun will scare away 90% of home intruders.

 

[Jefferson the Caregiver]

2. Switzerland. I recently heard, and perhaps someone can attest to the accuracy, that Switzerland had the / one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world. But you never hear about anything like this. Is that indeed true, and what can be learned here?

Almost one in two in Switzerland own guns with a .07 homicide rate per capita. Almost one in 3 own guns in Iceland with a homicide rate of .03.There are 9 guns for every 10 people in the US and the homicide rate is over 4.There are still less guns overall in Switzerland and Iceland but a case can be made for responsible gun ownership. Some countries are more civilized than others.I'd still like to get the guns down in the US as a start. I am not going as far as to say that they need to be outlawed but let's start by getting some out of circulation if you own multiple guns.

 

[Ursa M]

Can we get past the semi-automatic vs fully automatic weapon semantic BS?

What is the BS? The guns function totally different. If someone wants to ban assault rifles, well they are already banned!!

As a society, do you feel we have too many gun laws, not enough or have it exactly right currently?

I think we have enough laws, but I think they could do a better job enforcing them.

Rewind the clock a few days/weeks. What laws on the books would have saved those kids' lives yesterday? How would you have suggested they be enforced differently. If you don't have an answer to either question (preferably both), then we obviously need more laws. Because, what happened yesterday is part of a pattern that is inexcusable. And, to be perfectly frank, we all share responsibility for not doing enough to protect those kids; perhaps you for being an ardent gun supporter and certainly me for not doing enough in the past to get them out circulation.

I asked Tso this earlier but he didn't respond, so I'll ask you (any other person who thinks we need to get rid of all semi-automatic weapons can also respond.)If all the semi-automatic guns are banned and confiscated, what do we do when these incidents happen with revolvers and pump action shotguns?

There is absolutely no reason for a normal everyday citizen to own a pump action shot gun. Not any more reason than to own a hand grenade or an missile launcher. Absolutely insane. So, let's start with the semi-automatic guns, pump action shotguns and see what happens from there. And, my god, let's get some licensing requirements to own any firearm. The process to register to vote, to get a driver's license, to apply for college....it's more difficult to do any of this than it is to walk into WalMart and buy a gun. That's ### backwards.

Make it more difficult to vote but easier to own guns of all types. ### backward indeed.

 

[cobalt_27]

Can we get past the semi-automatic vs fully automatic weapon semantic BS?

What is the BS? The guns function totally different. If someone wants to ban assault rifles, well they are already banned!!

As a society, do you feel we have too many gun laws, not enough or have it exactly right currently?

I think we have enough laws, but I think they could do a better job enforcing them.

Rewind the clock a few days/weeks. What laws on the books would have saved those kids' lives yesterday? How would you have suggested they be enforced differently. If you don't have an answer to either question (preferably both), then we obviously need more laws. Because, what happened yesterday is part of a pattern that is inexcusable. And, to be perfectly frank, we all share responsibility for not doing enough to protect those kids; perhaps you for being an ardent gun supporter and certainly me for not doing enough in the past to get them out circulation.

No laws can protect someone crazy enough from carrying out what happened. The guy could have made a simple bomb out of fertilizer material and blown everyone up. Let's start looking at what causes this type of behavior. Turn off the TV and pay attention to those around you. There are warning signs but everyone is too busy to notice.As far as laws that could be enforced better? Felons owning a gun would be a great place to start.

Alright, so what were the "warning signs" with this kid? I work as a psychologist and see kids practically every week who meet the description/signs of what we know about this guy. What should I do with them? The large body of psychiatric literature and history of violence does not map out a stock personality/psychological profile for these massacres. Bottom line, it's easy to say pay attention, but much more difficult to know what you are paying attention to. And, if you locked up every kid who showed signs of being socially awkward, depressed, distant, etc...you get the point. Doesn't happen because it can't. He wasn't a felon, and it appears the firearms he used were legal. But, I agree, felons would be an obvious place to start. But, that's obviously not sufficient.

 

[The Flying Elvis]

Can we get past the semi-automatic vs fully automatic weapon semantic BS?

What is the BS? The guns function totally different. If someone wants to ban assault rifles, well they are already banned!!

As a society, do you feel we have too many gun laws, not enough or have it exactly right currently?

I think we have enough laws, but I think they could do a better job enforcing them.

Rewind the clock a few days/weeks. What laws on the books would have saved those kids' lives yesterday? How would you have suggested they be enforced differently. If you don't have an answer to either question (preferably both), then we obviously need more laws. Because, what happened yesterday is part of a pattern that is inexcusable. And, to be perfectly frank, we all share responsibility for not doing enough to protect those kids; perhaps you for being an ardent gun supporter and certainly me for not doing enough in the past to get them out circulation.

I asked Tso this earlier but he didn't respond, so I'll ask you (any other person who thinks we need to get rid of all semi-automatic weapons can also respond.)If all the semi-automatic guns are banned and confiscated, what do we do when these incidents happen with revolvers and pump action shotguns?

There is absolutely no reason for a normal everyday citizen to own a pump action shot gun. Not any more reason than to own a hand grenade or an missile launcher. Absolutely insane. So, let's start with the semi-automatic guns, pump action shotguns and see what happens from there. And, my god, let's get some licensing requirements to own any firearm. The process to register to vote, to get a driver's license, to apply for college....it's more difficult to do any of this than it is to walk into WalMart and buy a gun. That's ### backwards.

It took a few news stories and cases of alcohol poisoning involving Four Loko, an alcoholic energy drink, and it was banned in multiple states within a month. That is nuts. It is easier for me to buy a handgun than it would be for me to purchase the equivalent of a Vodka Redbull.

 

[jafo]

2. Switzerland. I recently heard, and perhaps someone can attest to the accuracy, that Switzerland had the / one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world. But you never hear about anything like this. Is that indeed true, and what can be learned here?

Almost one in two in Switzerland own guns with a .07 homicide rate per capita. Almost one in 3 own guns in Iceland with a homicide rate of .03.There are 9 guns for every 10 people in the US and the homicide rate is over 4.

There are still less guns overall in Switzerland and Iceland but a case can be made for responsible gun ownership. Some countries are more civilized than others.

I'd still like to get the guns down in the US as a start. I am not going as far as to say that they need to be outlawed but let's start by getting some out of circulation if you own multiple guns.

Exactly. We need to start looking at our society and its people instead of blaming the tools used to commit crimes.

 

[Rayderr]

Can we get past the semi-automatic vs fully automatic weapon semantic BS?

What is the BS? The guns function totally different. If someone wants to ban assault rifles, well they are already banned!!

As a society, do you feel we have too many gun laws, not enough or have it exactly right currently?

I think we have enough laws, but I think they could do a better job enforcing them.

Rewind the clock a few days/weeks. What laws on the books would have saved those kids' lives yesterday? How would you have suggested they be enforced differently. If you don't have an answer to either question (preferably both), then we obviously need more laws. Because, what happened yesterday is part of a pattern that is inexcusable. And, to be perfectly frank, we all share responsibility for not doing enough to protect those kids; perhaps you for being an ardent gun supporter and certainly me for not doing enough in the past to get them out circulation.

I asked Tso this earlier but he didn't respond, so I'll ask you (any other person who thinks we need to get rid of all semi-automatic weapons can also respond.)If all the semi-automatic guns are banned and confiscated, what do we do when these incidents happen with revolvers and pump action shotguns?

There is absolutely no reason for a normal everyday citizen to own a pump action shot gun. Not any more reason than to own a hand grenade or an missile launcher. Absolutely insane. So, let's start with the semi-automatic guns, pump action shotguns and see what happens from there. And, my god, let's get some licensing requirements to own any firearm. The process to register to vote, to get a driver's license, to apply for college....it's more difficult to do any of this than it is to walk into WalMart and buy a gun. That's ### backwards.

Plenty of reasons to own a pump action shotgun. Hunting, defending crops and livestock from predators... But ok, so now we've banned pump action shot guns. These incidents happen with revolvers and bolt action rifles. Now what?And we already have licensing requirements to own firearms. Contrary to your statement, it is not easier for a person to go to walmart and buy their first gun than to register to vote or go to college.

 

[jafo]

Can we get past the semi-automatic vs fully automatic weapon semantic BS?

What is the BS? The guns function totally different. If someone wants to ban assault rifles, well they are already banned!!

As a society, do you feel we have too many gun laws, not enough or have it exactly right currently?

I think we have enough laws, but I think they could do a better job enforcing them.

Rewind the clock a few days/weeks. What laws on the books would have saved those kids' lives yesterday? How would you have suggested they be enforced differently. If you don't have an answer to either question (preferably both), then we obviously need more laws. Because, what happened yesterday is part of a pattern that is inexcusable. And, to be perfectly frank, we all share responsibility for not doing enough to protect those kids; perhaps you for being an ardent gun supporter and certainly me for not doing enough in the past to get them out circulation.

I asked Tso this earlier but he didn't respond, so I'll ask you (any other person who thinks we need to get rid of all semi-automatic weapons can also respond.)If all the semi-automatic guns are banned and confiscated, what do we do when these incidents happen with revolvers and pump action shotguns?

There is absolutely no reason for a normal everyday citizen to own a pump action shot gun. Not any more reason than to own a hand grenade or an missile launcher. Absolutely insane. So, let's start with the semi-automatic guns, pump action shotguns and see what happens from there. And, my god, let's get some licensing requirements to own any firearm. The process to register to vote, to get a driver's license, to apply for college....it's more difficult to do any of this than it is to walk into WalMart and buy a gun. That's ### backwards.

Make it more difficult to vote but easier to own guns of all types. ### backward indeed.

That is BS and you've clearly never walked into WalMart to buy a gun. All legal guns sales require a criminal background check, and WalMart is no exception.

 

[cobalt_27]

The US has almost 9 guns for every 10 people, sorry but that is too high. Interesting because I don't know that many people personally that own guns. The case seems to be that those who have them have multiple guns. I can't see it hurting if some of these guns got taken out of circulation. Is owning multiple guns necessary?

Of course. I could have a shotgun for home defense, another shotgun made for shooting clay birds. Multiple hunting rifles for different types of game. A handgun for concealed carry. The list goes on..

Well, I'm done seeing kids get killed so you can pacify your paranoia and hobby with sort of crap.

 

[jafo]

The US has almost 9 guns for every 10 people, sorry but that is too high. Interesting because I don't know that many people personally that own guns. The case seems to be that those who have them have multiple guns. I can't see it hurting if some of these guns got taken out of circulation. Is owning multiple guns necessary?

Of course. I could have a shotgun for home defense, another shotgun made for shooting clay birds. Multiple hunting rifles for different types of game. A handgun for concealed carry. The list goes on..

Well, I'm done seeing kids get killed so you can pacify your paranoia and hobby with sort of crap.

I'm sick of the kids getting killed too, my guns aren't causing that problem. Sadly it seems you're just another uneducated American. You're in fear of something, so ban them from everyone!

 

[cobalt_27]

The US has almost 9 guns for every 10 people, sorry but that is too high. Interesting because I don't know that many people personally that own guns. The case seems to be that those who have them have multiple guns. I can't see it hurting if some of these guns got taken out of circulation. Is owning multiple guns necessary?

Of course. I could have a shotgun for home defense, another shotgun made for shooting clay birds. Multiple hunting rifles for different types of game. A handgun for concealed carry. The list goes on..

Well, I'm done seeing kids get killed so you can pacify your paranoia and hobby with sort of crap.

I'm sick of the kids getting killed too, my guns aren't causing that problem. Sadly it seems you're just another uneducated American. You're in fear of something, so ban them from everyone!

No, you are mistaken. Your guns are the problem. And your claim that I am an "uneducated American" is absurd, both in reality and the sorry state of your position on this matter.

 

[RCon]

I'm kind of suprised LHUCKS got banned today but Otis is still running wild with stuff that's way beyond anything the other guy posted.

Otis = LHUCKS East

I agree that LHUCKS ban was silly. He did nothing wrong other than people with a grudge against him seeing a chance to get rid of him. Why is Raidernation not banned for his role in the lhucks banning? But its not my board and I respect the mods and the choices they make.

I would contend that putting sentiments such as "anyone who disagrees with me is an idiotic hillbilly" in every single post is worthy of a ban. LHUCKS and Otis are both highly guilty of that.

 

[lod01]

Exactly. We need to start looking at our society and its people instead of blaming the tools used to commit crimes.

Good luck fixing that.

 

[jafo]

I feel I have added my 2 cents on this subject, and will now bow out. Good day to you all.

 

[cobalt_27]

I am glad that I don't vote with the constituency that wants to make it harder to vote and easier to obtain assault weapons that are also rifles but not assault rifles

But, I do appreciate the *enthusiasts* doing their best to articulate the distinction(s) here in this thread. Thanks guys. Frankly, I don't care. And, the parents of those 20 kids probably don't care, either.

 

[Rayderr]

If all the semi-automatic guns are banned and confiscated, what do we do when these incidents happen with revolvers and pump action shotguns?

Aside from fewer funerals?

Yes. Or are mass shootings ok as long as they aren't with semi-automatic weapons? I've noticed that people are avoiding answering the question of what do we do when shootings keep occurring after a semi-automatic ban.

 

[BigJohn]

Much like the pitbull thread, there will be no way of convincing the anti-gun people. They are so obsessed in their thinking that nothing will change their mind. They are so focused on the weapon (guns) and don't care about the actual problem (####ed up whackos).

For those trying to convince them otherwise, you are wasting your time. I suggest you do something better with your time.

Good day.

Incorrect.They're both problems, one is just easier to fix than the other.

ORLY?

 

[Furious Styles]

Exactly. We need to start looking at our society and its people instead of blaming the tools used to commit crimes.

Good luck fixing that.

Of course that is the rub, any meaningful change in our society could take decades. Why can't we examine our society as well as discuss our laws around guns? Of course, we need to examine our treatment of the mentally ill. Additionally, we need to examine our pop culture, our education system and a host of other items.

 

[cobalt_27]

If all the semi-automatic guns are banned and confiscated, what do we do when these incidents happen with revolvers and pump action shotguns?

Aside from fewer funerals?

Yes. Or are mass shootings ok as long as they aren't with semi-automatic weapons? I've noticed that people are avoiding answering the question of what do we do when shootings keep occurring after a semi-automatic ban.

I haven't avoided. I answered. I said let's start there. In addition, let's get the licensing laws more restrictive for handguns. Special circumstance to allow hand gun ownership, do away with the hobbyist element, gun shows get rid of them, limitation being the rule and see what happens. What I know is yesterday, this week, this month in particular...it's at the point of becoming inexcusable.

 

[Rayderr]

If all the semi-automatic guns are banned and confiscated, what do we do when these incidents happen with revolvers and pump action shotguns?

Aside from fewer funerals?

Yes. Or are mass shootings ok as long as they aren't with semi-automatic weapons? I've noticed that people are avoiding answering the question of what do we do when shootings keep occurring after a semi-automatic ban.

I haven't avoided. I answered. I said let's start there. In addition, let's get the licensing laws more restrictive for handguns. Special circumstance to allow hand gun ownership, do away with the hobbyist element, gun shows get rid of them, limitation being the rule and see what happens. What I know is yesterday, this week, this month in particular...it's at the point of becoming inexcusable.

So why not just try those things first?

 

[Otis]

But let's ban the assault rifles (they're called "assault" rifles, a step removed from "high efficiency people killers") and the hand guns that are usually used for mass murder, and let's call it a day. See we can be reasonable.

Assault rifles are already banned.

Link? The Federal Assault Weapons Ban expired in 2004 and hasn't been renewed.

Assault weapon <> assault rifle. 2 totally different things.

They're not "totally different things." One is a subset of the other. The .223 Bushmaster rifle that has been discussed - is it legal? Is it an assault rifle?

An assault rifle is a select-fire (either fully automatic or burst capable) rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine. It is not to be confused with assault weapons.[1] Assault rifles are the standard service rifles in most modern armies. Assault rifles are categorized in between light machine guns, which are intended more for sustained automatic fire in a light support role, and submachine guns, which fire a pistol cartridge rather than a rifle cartridge.

The .223 Bushmaster rifle that has been discussed - is it legal? Is it an assault rifle?

It is an Assault Weapon not an Assault Rifle. Not really sure how that is relevant other than semantics though.

The term "assault weapon" was used by the gun control groups to get the public to confuse certain weapons with automatic rifles in order to make it easier to get them banned. Lots of people are picturing the bushmaster, or other rifles in other incidents as being just hold down the trigger and let the bullets fly, when in reality, that not how it works. Semi-automatic guns and rifles, like the bushmaster do require a pull of the trigger for each bullet.

Glad we're really honing in on the important semantics here. Assault weapons, assault rifles. Very important to draw a line there.Or we could just ban any deadly weapon characterized as an "assault" weapon. I suspect they're not designed for assaulting antelope.

 

[Otis]

It seems to me that two positions on this matter hold no merit. The first being that there isn't a way to have sensible gun control without infringing on the Constitution. The second being that gun control alone will eliminate these type of tragedies from occurring.

I'm certain that nobody here has argued the bolded.

 

[RCon]

Can we get past the semi-automatic vs fully automatic weapon semantic BS?

There is a pretty clear difference between semi and fully automatic weapons. It's not semantics.

Alright, then "assault rifle" vs "assault weapon" semanticsAnd no Rayder, you're probably not going to get people to refer to these mass killing machines in the exact right way; because most of us don't know what terms are commonly used for these particular types of mass killing machines. Just because someone doesn't know the difference between an assault rifle and an assault weapon as well as the correct etymology of both words does not change the fact that they are mass killing machines, used to kill lots of people.

The point of distinction is that anyone calling for bans or rules regarding X should know the definition of X. If you want to ban "assault weapons", then it's incumbent on you to either know what an assault weapon is or define the term as part of the ban. This really shouldn't be a controversial position.

 

[MAC_32]

Much like the pitbull thread, there will be no way of convincing the anti-gun people. They are so obsessed in their thinking that nothing will change their mind. They are so focused on the weapon (guns) and don't care about the actual problem (####ed up whackos).

For those trying to convince them otherwise, you are wasting your time. I suggest you do something better with your time.

Good day.

Incorrect.They're both problems, one is just easier to fix than the other.

ORLY?

Enacting laws is much easier than changing human behavior. The former can be done rather quickly, the latter is going to be a long, painful process.

 

[cobalt_27]

If all the semi-automatic guns are banned and confiscated, what do we do when these incidents happen with revolvers and pump action shotguns?

Aside from fewer funerals?

Yes. Or are mass shootings ok as long as they aren't with semi-automatic weapons? I've noticed that people are avoiding answering the question of what do we do when shootings keep occurring after a semi-automatic ban.

I haven't avoided. I answered. I said let's start there. In addition, let's get the licensing laws more restrictive for handguns. Special circumstance to allow hand gun ownership, do away with the hobbyist element, gun shows get rid of them, limitation being the rule and see what happens. What I know is yesterday, this week, this month in particular...it's at the point of becoming inexcusable.

So why not just try those things first?

Sure. Let's write this up now. I'll take a pass on the semi-auto ban if you agree with me that we completely prohibit the gun shows, make it very difficult to obtain a license to own a firearm (provisions for special circumstances), limit the distribution centers, etc. I'll work with you on that compromise in our new legislation efforts.

 

[Otis]

If you guys really want to start a Second American Civil War, then just try to confiscate firearms under threat of force from the federal government. It is a fundamental right guaranteed by our Constitution and people are not going to give them up without a fight. You think 20 children in one school is bad? How about tens of thousands of deaths nationwide in running battles between millions of law abiding citizens and those trying to strip them of their rights and long held possessions? Is this why DHS purchased all that ammo earlier this year?

Tell you what. We don't need a fight. We don't want you. Take all the red states and secede, make Huckabee your pres, get God back in the schools and guns back into the hands of everybody who can carry one. Best of luck.

 

[Otis]

... I seriously considered getting one for my home as protection after I had my daughter. In the end the risks just outweighed the benefits. It just wasn't worth it.So I'd ban handguns too....

so you did some soul-searching, a cost/benefit analysis, and decided it wasn't worth having a gun in your house, and are willing to cite that as appropriate for the rest of the US population?

No. I was confessing that despite how strongly I feel about the gun issues now, I myself even considered buying one. My analysis has nothing to do with the rest of the country. 20 dead 5 year olds should be enough for the rest of the country. And yet people are relentless. That's why I'm seething about this.

You don't understand someone like this, wanting to go in and shoot up a school, could still get the gun/ammo and anything else they want.1. There will be a local black market for guns2. People just won't turn in guns3. People will just kill a police officer or someone else that would have a gun for it and then go out and shoot everyone up4. People can in most parts of the country take a 1 day road trip out of the country to get a gunI get so frustrated people most of the anti-gun people seem to try and latch onto events like this.... Events like this still would happen, maybe we would just see someone bring in a knife, or possibly they build bombs.In the end when did we become a nanny state? It seems like the government wants to control my life in every aspect, telling me what I can eat, what I can drink, what I can purchase....

Ex-freaking-actly. Are you listening?Nobody is saying there will be world peace. We're saying this jackhole walks into a school with a knife and maybe you have no deaths, or limited deaths. He walks in there with an arsenal of guns and we have nearly 30 dead in 20 minutes. What's so difficult to understand about this??The link to the school stabbing incident in China yesterday is a perfect example of what we're talking about.

 

[Otis]

So people love guns so much that events like yesterday and in the future are just worth the cost to own guns. FREEDOM!!! USA! USA!

Exactly. This is the part I have a serious problem with. Are your guns so important to you that it's worth even a modest increase in the chances of something like this happening in your town? You'd have to be stupid to take that trade.

 

[cobalt_27]

If you guys really want to start a Second American Civil War, then just try to confiscate firearms under threat of force from the federal government. It is a fundamental right guaranteed by our Constitution and people are not going to give them up without a fight. You think 20 children in one school is bad? How about tens of thousands of deaths nationwide in running battles between millions of law abiding citizens and those trying to strip them of their rights and long held possessions? Is this why DHS purchased all that ammo earlier this year?

Tell you what. We don't need a fight. We don't want you. Take all the red states and secede, make Huckabee your pres, get God back in the schools and guns back into the hands of everybody who can carry one. Best of luck.

I mean, seriously.

 

[Abraham]

Otis - I'm not sure why you think southerners are part of the problem in this regard. By my math, Giffords, aurora, Oregon, and yesterday all happene in decidedly liberal, non-southern states.

 

[3C's]

I think your issues are with cars, not alcohol and cell phones. And if it is with alcohol and cell phones, at least alcohol and cell phones serve very useful purposes for people in today's society. Guns just kill. That's their sole purpose. To kill. YAY!

What useful purpose does alcohol serve? I'll give you cell phones.

First of all, your alcohol angle is ####. Second, I haven't been sick in years. http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/12/10/got-a-cold-have-a-beer/

 

[urbanhack]

So people love guns so much that events like yesterday and in the future are just worth the cost to own guns. FREEDOM!!! USA! USA!

Exactly. This is the part I have a serious problem with. Are your guns so important to you that it's worth even a modest increase in the chances of something like this happening in your town? You'd have to be stupid to take that trade.

BUT ITS THE SECOND AMENDMENT!!!

 

[Rayderr]

Or we could just ban any deadly weapon characterized as an "assault" weapon. I suspect they're not designed for assaulting antelope.

Ok, done. Magical spell is cast and all "assault weapons" have vanished. They don't exist anymore. Hey look, another mass shooting. This time without assault weapons. Now what?I'm not trying to be a #### here or use this as an argument that no changes should be made to the gun laws. But everyone on here that's calling for changes to be made to the gun laws seems to acknowledge that it's not going to end these types of events. So if these events are going to continue happening, there's going to be a demand for something to be done. What is the next step after an assault weapon ban? Why will that be more effective? If it is more effective, why are we not looking at that instead?

 

[Apple Jack]

If you guys really want to start a Second American Civil War, then just try to confiscate firearms under threat of force from the federal government. It is a fundamental right guaranteed by our Constitution and people are not going to give them up without a fight. You think 20 children in one school is bad? How about tens of thousands of deaths nationwide in running battles between millions of law abiding citizens and those trying to strip them of their rights and long held possessions? Is this why DHS purchased all that ammo earlier this year?

Tell you what. We don't need a fight. We don't want you. Take all the red states and secede, make Huckabee your pres, get God back in the schools and guns back into the hands of everybody who can carry one. Best of luck.

I mean, seriously.

I hope that guy is on a watch list. Goodness gracious.

 

[cobalt_27]

Or we could just ban any deadly weapon characterized as an "assault" weapon. I suspect they're not designed for assaulting antelope.

Ok, done. Magical spell is cast and all "assault weapons" have vanished. They don't exist anymore. Hey look, another mass shooting. This time without assault weapons. Now what?I'm not trying to be a #### here or use this as an argument that no changes should be made to the gun laws. But everyone on here that's calling for changes to be made to the gun laws seems to acknowledge that it's not going to end these types of events. So if these events are going to continue happening, there's going to be a demand for something to be done. What is the next step after an assault weapon ban? Why will that be more effective? If it is more effective, why are we not looking at that instead?

Please see my compromise measure I'll co-sponsor with you, if you are so inclined.

 

[Rayderr]

If all the semi-automatic guns are banned and confiscated, what do we do when these incidents happen with revolvers and pump action shotguns?

Aside from fewer funerals?

Yes. Or are mass shootings ok as long as they aren't with semi-automatic weapons? I've noticed that people are avoiding answering the question of what do we do when shootings keep occurring after a semi-automatic ban.

I haven't avoided. I answered. I said let's start there. In addition, let's get the licensing laws more restrictive for handguns. Special circumstance to allow hand gun ownership, do away with the hobbyist element, gun shows get rid of them, limitation being the rule and see what happens. What I know is yesterday, this week, this month in particular...it's at the point of becoming inexcusable.

So why not just try those things first?

Sure. Let's write this up now. I'll take a pass on the semi-auto ban if you agree with me that we completely prohibit the gun shows, make it very difficult to obtain a license to own a firearm (provisions for special circumstances), limit the distribution centers, etc. I'll work with you on that compromise in our new legislation efforts.

Ok, but what are we going to do when there's still mass shootings after all that gets passed?

 

[sporthenry]

If all the semi-automatic guns are banned and confiscated, what do we do when these incidents happen with revolvers and pump action shotguns?

Aside from fewer funerals?

Yes. Or are mass shootings ok as long as they aren't with semi-automatic weapons? I've noticed that people are avoiding answering the question of what do we do when shootings keep occurring after a semi-automatic ban.

So then what do we do? Is there nothing we can do? Gun rights activists in this thread are just playing devil's advocates but adding nothing to the final solution. Yes, if you asked 90% of us here, we didn't/don't know the different between an assault weapon and an assault rifle or whatever. Show us an AR-15 and an AK-47 and we couldn't tell the difference. So you guys are actually in the position to help form and shape this policy so you can actually get what you want. Yes, there are law abiding citizens who love guns, so how do we let them keep guns while making sure other people don't get guns. These gun rights activists always agree that this is a problem, yet aren't so talkative about solutions but just that these massacres will always happen. That isn't good enough. Terrorists will always have the chance to succeed so why bother putting in restrictions? For one, we'll see how many shots this guy got off but I doubt he is as effective with a revolver. We'll see if he reloaded but how quick can you shoot 30 bullets with a glock as opposed to a revolver?

 

[cobalt_27]

If all the semi-automatic guns are banned and confiscated, what do we do when these incidents happen with revolvers and pump action shotguns?

Aside from fewer funerals?

Yes. Or are mass shootings ok as long as they aren't with semi-automatic weapons? I've noticed that people are avoiding answering the question of what do we do when shootings keep occurring after a semi-automatic ban.

I haven't avoided. I answered. I said let's start there. In addition, let's get the licensing laws more restrictive for handguns. Special circumstance to allow hand gun ownership, do away with the hobbyist element, gun shows get rid of them, limitation being the rule and see what happens. What I know is yesterday, this week, this month in particular...it's at the point of becoming inexcusable.

So why not just try those things first?

Sure. Let's write this up now. I'll take a pass on the semi-auto ban if you agree with me that we completely prohibit the gun shows, make it very difficult to obtain a license to own a firearm (provisions for special circumstances), limit the distribution centers, etc. I'll work with you on that compromise in our new legislation efforts.

Ok, but what are we going to do when there's still mass shootings after all that gets passed?

My hope is that our efforts will reduce the number of the events. I am a realist in assuming we won't ever reach the nirvana of 0% hand gun death rates. But, I do want to make a concerted effort to significantly reduce the number from the ~10,000 deaths we see every year. If our efforts are successful in doing this, it would be a positive step, right? Will you work with me on this, and we can review the policy and adjust our recommendations accordingly?

 

[Otis]

Or we could just ban any deadly weapon characterized as an "assault" weapon. I suspect they're not designed for assaulting antelope.

Ok, done. Magical spell is cast and all "assault weapons" have vanished. They don't exist anymore. Hey look, another mass shooting. This time without assault weapons. Now what?I'm not trying to be a #### here or use this as an argument that no changes should be made to the gun laws. But everyone on here that's calling for changes to be made to the gun laws seems to acknowledge that it's not going to end these types of events. So if these events are going to continue happening, there's going to be a demand for something to be done. What is the next step after an assault weapon ban? Why will that be more effective? If it is more effective, why are we not looking at that instead?

I think you ban assault weapons, concealed pistols, automatic weapons, machine guns, and any other guns that are purposed for killing human beings. If people want to keep hunting rifles for hunting, fine. Let's draw the line there and see what happens. The great part is we can always try it and see what happens. Yeah, Bubba and Bodene might have to give up some years of shooting assault weapons in Tammy-Sue's side lot, but maybe just maybe in the end it will be worth a try.

 

[Spanky267]

Can we get past the semi-automatic vs fully automatic weapon semantic BS?

What is the BS? The guns function totally different. If someone wants to ban assault rifles, well they are already banned!!

As a society, do you feel we have too many gun laws, not enough or have it exactly right currently?

I think we have enough laws, but I think they could do a better job enforcing them.

Rewind the clock a few days/weeks. What laws on the books would have saved those kids' lives yesterday? How would you have suggested they be enforced differently. If you don't have an answer to either question (preferably both), then we obviously need more laws. Because, what happened yesterday is part of a pattern that is inexcusable. And, to be perfectly frank, we all share responsibility for not doing enough to protect those kids; perhaps you for being an ardent gun supporter and certainly me for not doing enough in the past to get them out circulation.

I asked Tso this earlier but he didn't respond, so I'll ask you (any other person who thinks we need to get rid of all semi-automatic weapons can also respond.)If all the semi-automatic guns are banned and confiscated, what do we do when these incidents happen with revolvers and pump action shotguns?

There is absolutely no reason for a normal everyday citizen to own a pump action shot gun. Not any more reason than to own a hand grenade or an missile launcher. Absolutely insane. So, let's start with the semi-automatic guns, pump action shotguns and see what happens from there. And, my god, let's get some licensing requirements to own any firearm. The process to register to vote, to get a driver's license, to apply for college....it's more difficult to do any of this than it is to walk into WalMart and buy a gun. That's ### backwards.

I had to fill out more paperwork to buy my pistol in 2012 than I had to complete in order to become a registered voter in 1991. I also had to go through a background check to buy my pistol and had to wait 3 days to pick it up. I actually had to wait longer than 3 days because the purchase was made on the weekend.You can walk into a sporting good store or a Walmart and buy a shotgun or rifle the same day. Maybe that should change. But that wouldn't have necessarily stopped the murderer in this case because they weren't his guns and they may have been owned for some time. Wouldn't of stopped the guy in Oregon either since he stole the one he used from a friend.

 

[Apple Jack]

So people love guns so much that events like yesterday and in the future are just worth the cost to own guns. FREEDOM!!! USA! USA!

Exactly. This is the part I have a serious problem with. Are your guns so important to you that it's worth even a modest increase in the chances of something like this happening in your town? You'd have to be stupid to take that trade.

BUT ITS THE SECOND AMENDMENT!!!

The thing that cracks me up about all that is that IT'S AN AMENDMENT. It was added by Congress. The idea that Congress can't undue something that Congress did is ridiculous. It was not in the original draft of the Constitution. The Constitution is a living document. And the Second Amendment certainly wasn't written with repeating weapons and 200+ years of successful democracy and democratic/republic elections in mind. It was written for the conditions of the time. They had no idea that guns would become such an issue. How could they? A repeal of the Second Amendment as a new amendment would be no less "fundamental" than the Second Amendment. After all, it would "in the Constitution."Still at the civil war bit. I think Jethro and Coy-Bob might just stand a fighting chance against the US Army.

 

[Spanky267]

Or we could just ban any deadly weapon characterized as an "assault" weapon. I suspect they're not designed for assaulting antelope.

Ok, done. Magical spell is cast and all "assault weapons" have vanished. They don't exist anymore. Hey look, another mass shooting. This time without assault weapons. Now what?I'm not trying to be a #### here or use this as an argument that no changes should be made to the gun laws. But everyone on here that's calling for changes to be made to the gun laws seems to acknowledge that it's not going to end these types of events. So if these events are going to continue happening, there's going to be a demand for something to be done. What is the next step after an assault weapon ban? Why will that be more effective? If it is more effective, why are we not looking at that instead?

I think you ban assault weapons, concealed pistols, automatic weapons, machine guns, and any other guns that are purposed for killing human beings. If people want to keep hunting rifles for hunting, fine. Let's draw the line there and see what happens. The great part is we can always try it and see what happens. Yeah, Bubba and Bodene might have to give up some years of shooting assault weapons in Tammy-Sue's side lot, but maybe just maybe in the end it will be worth a try.

Can you show me a case where a concealed weapons permit holder committed a mass shooting? Automatic weapons are basically illegal to own unless you hold a special federal permit. Been illegal since the 1930s. There isn't much difference between a semi-auto "assault rifle" and a semi auto hunting rifle. The main difference is furniture and how they look.

 

[sporthenry]

This may have been covered already, but can't wade through 15 pages here. Two real questions re: gun control.

1. Israel. Obviously, for reasons of need, every household in Israel has guns. Multiple guns. Assault weapons. Really dangerous stuff. But you don't ever see an incident like this... part perhaps societal, and part perhaps because if someone takes two shots in a crowded area, many others who have weapons and are very well trained will take down the target almost immediately. In addition, you almost never (never?) hear of five year olds shooting themselves by accident after finding "daddy's gun" - nor do you see a pair of 12 year olds involved in a deadly game of russian roulette or something.

What I see in Israel is that everyone is aware of guns. What they can do, positively and negatively. Everyone is well trained in how to use them, store them, gun safety etc. There is a level of KNOWLEDGE, RESPECT AND RESPONSIBILITY for the weapons, and that, imo, goes a long way, coupled with the knowledge that if you try to be some evil villain, you are not going to get far. You may kill one, or two, or three... but then you are taken out before any worse carnage could even occur.

2. Switzerland. I recently heard, and perhaps someone can attest to the accuracy, that Switzerland had the / one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world. But you never hear about anything like this. Is that indeed true, and what can be learned here?

So, with this one or possibly two examples, what can we learn? How can we balance the right to bear arms with the societal right to not be exposed to unnecessary danger from other's inappropriate use of arms? If you have the concept as noted above of people wanting and needing a sense of power, if you take away bombs, does the nut go to explosives? Not as if it's that hard to make a bomb, after all. Though granted, not as easy as taking a few assault rifles and going shooting. That said, crazies will find a way, but obviously making that more difficult will mitigate the issue to a degree.

I just wonder if we have the worst of both worlds. Far too few weapons in the hands of responsible and very well trained people while just about anyone can get weapons without any intent on being responsible or of sane mind, even.

Facts, facts, facts. The only thing in the way of a good narrative. The US gun rate is 88 guns per 100 people. Israel is at 7.3 (Notice the decimal). http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/07/24/3101546/despite-militarized-society-israels-strict-gun-laws-keep-civilian-violence-down

People always bring up the 18 year olds touting guns in the Israel but:

However, once those soldiers finish their service two or three years later, they are subject to civilian gun control regulations that are much stricter than American laws.

In fact, it’s pretty much impossible for civilians who live in Israel to acquire an arsenal of weaponry of the sort used by the alleged shooter in last week’s massacre in Aurora, Colo. James E. Holmes, who is accused of killing 12 people and wounding 58 in the Aurora movie theater, legally bought the firearms he used, according to reports, including a semiautomatic rifle, a semiautomatic pistol and a 12-gauge shotgun. Leading up to the shooting, Holmes had bought thousands of bullets online.

He said that gun massacres don’t occur in Israel because gun owners here undergo more comprehensive psychological screenings than do U.S. gun owners.

And as far as Switzerland

For example, the nature of gun ownership in Switzerland is tied to the military. Switzerland has a very small standing army, and citizens are expected to act as militiamen should the country be invaded. Every 18-30 years old Swiss male between has to do three months' military training, and many more regular refresher courses. The majority of guns are army-issued, though rules on private gun ownership are very lax compared to other European countries.

This is also a country with a population smaller than New York City. According to 2011 data from the IMF, Switzerland has a GDP per capita of $83,073, almost double that of the US, or other European countries like the UK or France. The CIA says 6.9 percent of the country lives below the poverty line, compared to 15.1 in the US or 14 in the UK.

Finally, it would be wrong to ignore that gun control has become a hot topic in Switzerland in recent years. Last year a vote was held on whether the country should end the practice of keeping army-issue firearms at home and tighten over private gun ownership restrictions. While the plans were rejected by 57% of voters, the movement appears to be growing. Switzerland's notion of direct democracy (citizens are able to call constitutional and legislative referendums, but only on laws passed by the legislature) means that more votes are likely in the future.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/switzerlands-gun-laws-are-a-red-herring-2012-12#ixzz2F9B4mNsp

So they have necessary military training to own a gun. Additionally, their GDP is higher the US. Look at those poverty lines. I know correlation doesn't equal causation but look at gun statistics in cities with low income, high poverty rates, and ask yourself if it is a coincidence. So if we want to lower the amount of people in poverty and raise the GDP per capita, then we can bring back this talk of Switzerland.

 

[Spanky267]

So people love guns so much that events like yesterday and in the future are just worth the cost to own guns. FREEDOM!!! USA! USA!

Exactly. This is the part I have a serious problem with. Are your guns so important to you that it's worth even a modest increase in the chances of something like this happening in your town? You'd have to be stupid to take that trade.

BUT ITS THE SECOND AMENDMENT!!!

The thing that cracks me up about all that is that IT'S AN AMENDMENT. It was added by Congress. The idea that Congress can't undue something that Congress did is ridiculous. It was not in the original draft of the Constitution. The Constitution is a living document. And the Second Amendment certainly wasn't written with repeating weapons and 200+ years of successful democracy and democratic/republic elections in mind. It was written for the conditions of the time. They had no idea that guns would become such an issue. How could they? A repeal of the Second Amendment as a new amendment would be no less "fundamental" than the Second Amendment. After all, it would "in the Constitution."Still at the civil war bit. I think Jethro and Coy-Bob might just stand a fighting chance against the US Army.

We should also repeal the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments. They are afterall just amendments tacked on after the constitution. Who needs that pesky freedom of speech, freedom from unwarranted search and seizure and freedom to not incriminate ones self? Certainly those are outmoded concepts.

 

[cobalt_27]

Can we get past the semi-automatic vs fully automatic weapon semantic BS?

What is the BS? The guns function totally different. If someone wants to ban assault rifles, well they are already banned!!

As a society, do you feel we have too many gun laws, not enough or have it exactly right currently?

I think we have enough laws, but I think they could do a better job enforcing them.

Rewind the clock a few days/weeks. What laws on the books would have saved those kids' lives yesterday? How would you have suggested they be enforced differently. If you don't have an answer to either question (preferably both), then we obviously need more laws. Because, what happened yesterday is part of a pattern that is inexcusable. And, to be perfectly frank, we all share responsibility for not doing enough to protect those kids; perhaps you for being an ardent gun supporter and certainly me for not doing enough in the past to get them out circulation.

I asked Tso this earlier but he didn't respond, so I'll ask you (any other person who thinks we need to get rid of all semi-automatic weapons can also respond.)If all the semi-automatic guns are banned and confiscated, what do we do when these incidents happen with revolvers and pump action shotguns?

There is absolutely no reason for a normal everyday citizen to own a pump action shot gun. Not any more reason than to own a hand grenade or an missile launcher. Absolutely insane. So, let's start with the semi-automatic guns, pump action shotguns and see what happens from there. And, my god, let's get some licensing requirements to own any firearm. The process to register to vote, to get a driver's license, to apply for college....it's more difficult to do any of this than it is to walk into WalMart and buy a gun. That's ### backwards.

I had to fill out more paperwork to buy my pistol in 2012 than I had to complete in order to become a registered voter in 1991. I also had to go through a background check to buy my pistol and had to wait 3 days to pick it up. I actually had to wait longer than 3 days because the purchase was made on the weekend.You can walk into a sporting good store or a Walmart and buy a shotgun or rifle the same day. Maybe that should change. But that wouldn't have necessarily stopped the murderer in this case because they weren't his guns and they may have been owned for some time. Wouldn't of stopped the guy in Oregon either since he stole the one he used from a friend.

Limit availability, ease of obtaining, and chances are lowered that this sort of thing happens. It stands to reason more availability begets more of these crimes...less availability begets fewer of these massacres. So, let's work toward that goal, ok?