***OFFICIAL GUN CONTROL DEBATE*** (4 Viewers)

[Henry Ford]

sorry Otis but you just come off like a condescending ####### with a narrow minded view of others culture

Shooting an AK-47 on a holiday isn't culture.

 

[timschochet]

I think the overwhelming majority of gun owners are responsible owners who take it seriously. Sure, there are a few Yahoos who use them to change the TV channel or shoot their light switches on and off, but in the end; the responsible gun owner FAR outweighs the irresponsible one. That being said, having guns makes it easier for a person to do what this guy did. It makes it easier to kill a number of people in a shorter amount of time and it makes it harder for their intended targets to get away. But blaming guns for this is akin to blaming the auto industry for a drunk driver killing someone.

How do you know the bolded? I posted earlier in this thread about my personal experience with incredibly irresponsible gun owners.And all it takes is one. Like Mrs. Lanza.

I pointed out earlier in this thread that if we assume that every shooting (intentional, accidental, suicide) is done by a separate person (which we know is not the case) that works out to only .1% of the households with guns being involved in a shooting. So yeah, I'd say responsible gun owners far outweigh the irresponsible ones.

This is some of the worst, baseless, conclusory "analysis" I've ever seen on the internet.So you conclude that if an accident hasn't happened yet in a given household with guns, then it's a "responsible" household?

What a waste of time this thread is for all of us.

No Otis. I have disagreed with Rayderr a lot on this issue, but on this point is correct. Much earlier in this thread I pointed out how dangerous it is to make assumptions based on anecdotal evidence, and that is exactly what you are doing. Your argument is akin to arguing that in every household which has cars in the garage and a stocked liquor cabinet, there is bound to be a drunk driving incident.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I think the overwhelming majority of gun owners are responsible owners who take it seriously. Sure, there are a few Yahoos who use them to change the TV channel or shoot their light switches on and off, but in the end; the responsible gun owner FAR outweighs the irresponsible one. That being said, having guns makes it easier for a person to do what this guy did. It makes it easier to kill a number of people in a shorter amount of time and it makes it harder for their intended targets to get away. But blaming guns for this is akin to blaming the auto industry for a drunk driver killing someone.

How do you know the bolded?

I don't know precisely how many people in my community own a gun, but I'm guessing it's something like half of them, maybe more. If "good" gun owners didn't vastly outnumber "bad" gun owners, my town would be awash in gun-related violence. Needless to say, it isn't.

 

[bagger]

sorry Otis but you just come off like a condescending ####### with a narrow minded view of others culture

actually he is an elightened responsible adult calling out the ridiculousness that is our gun "culture" and the refusal by gun owners to ever give an inch of re thinking what is appropriate or intended by the 2nd amendment.nobody should have automatic or semi automatic weapons. no civilian. period.owning guns is not a culture any more than bigotry or other ignorant behavior is.you want a single action rifle for hunting? fine. nothing else is acceptable. that is the middle ground this country should take.

 

[cobalt_27]

My other close encounter with guns was when I was a teenager. I won't bore with the details, but suffice it to say we were at a friend's house, parents weren't around, dad kept an unloaded handgun in a shoebox in his closet, and friend's younger brother knew where the gun was. He went and got it. He ran around the house pointing the unloaded gun at us and pulling the trigger. We asked him to stop. It make me really uncomfortable. He then grabbed the clip. Put it into the gun. Cocked it. Took the clip out. He didn't know there was a bullet in the chamber. He aimed it a foot over the head of a kid sitting below him on the steps and pulled the trigger. The entry hole on this side of the living room wall was small. We walk around to the other side and there is an enormous hole in the dining room wall.Nobody was hurt, and so this was never reported. So, since there was no accident, clearly this was another responsible gun-owning household.

Unreal.

 

[Henry Ford]

I think the overwhelming majority of gun owners are responsible owners who take it seriously. Sure, there are a few Yahoos who use them to change the TV channel or shoot their light switches on and off, but in the end; the responsible gun owner FAR outweighs the irresponsible one. That being said, having guns makes it easier for a person to do what this guy did. It makes it easier to kill a number of people in a shorter amount of time and it makes it harder for their intended targets to get away. But blaming guns for this is akin to blaming the auto industry for a drunk driver killing someone.

How do you know the bolded? I posted earlier in this thread about my personal experience with incredibly irresponsible gun owners.And all it takes is one. Like Mrs. Lanza.

I pointed out earlier in this thread that if we assume that every shooting (intentional, accidental, suicide) is done by a separate person (which we know is not the case) that works out to only .1% of the households with guns being involved in a shooting. So yeah, I'd say responsible gun owners far outweigh the irresponsible ones.

This is some of the worst, baseless, conclusory "analysis" I've ever seen on the internet.So you conclude that if an accident hasn't happened yet in a given household with guns, then it's a "responsible" household?

What a waste of time this thread is for all of us.

No Otis. I have disagreed with Rayderr a lot on this issue, but on this point is correct. Much earlier in this thread I pointed out how dangerous it is to make assumptions based on anecdotal evidence, and that is exactly what you are doing. Your argument is akin to arguing that in every household which has cars in the garage and a stocked liquor cabinet, there is bound to be a drunk driving incident.

No, it isn't. It's that if every house in the U.S. has a car and a bunch of booze, there will always be drunk driving. Not in every house, but arguing that someone isn't driving drunk because he's never gotten a dui is idiotic.

 

[cobalt_27]

sorry Otis but you just come off like a condescending ####### with a narrow minded view of others culture

actually he is an elightened responsible adult calling out the ridiculousness that is our gun "culture" and the refusal by gun owners to ever give an inch of re thinking what is appropriate or intended by the 2nd amendment.nobody should have automatic or semi automatic weapons. no civilian. period.owning guns is not a culture any more than bigotry or other ignorant behavior is.you want a single action rifle for hunting? fine. nothing else is acceptable. that is the middle ground this country should take.

And, I really can't stress enough that this tragedy will be the catalyst for change. The time is long overdue. We need to get guns out of most people's hands. And that is going to happen sooner rather than later. It disgusts me that it has taken this long.The term "responsible gun owner" is an oxymoron.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I once dated a girl from Georgia. We went to visit her family over Thanksgiving. They lived a ways outside of Atlanta. We went to her grandmother's house. It's one of these situations where the grandmother owns a plot of land, and it's subdivided and one kid builds a house on an adjacent lot, and the in-laws build next to that, etc. The arsenal of weapons these people owned was mindblowing. They proudly showed me around the house to the various stashes of guns, pistols, rifles, an AK47, etc. None under lock and key. Children lived all over these homes. After dinner, they got really amped up to go out and shoot the guns. I was so uncomfortable with the whole scene and wanted to play along and be accepted by the family. So out we go, back behind where the pet hog lives. And there's an area in a big field where you go to shoot guns. They set up some logs and some crap as targets.And so we go out back with a collection of shotguns, pistols, rifles, AK47 assault rifles, and other things I don't know the names of. And with a million rounds of ammunition. We took turns; even the aunts and grandma got in on the action. And there I was, a good ol' hillbilly, out in the field, shootin' some guns. All the while I was wondering about a bullet ricocheting; about people far out into the woods who might be going for a walk and get hit by a stray bullet; the kids standing around who might just grab one and start firing randomly. I was stunned at how irresponsible this was, and at how cavalier they were about this. And this was just totally normal and fine for them. I have no double that everyone else in the neighborhood would think this is fine and do the same exact things.Get some horseshoes. A bocce court. Find something else to do after Thanksgiving dinner. This is a ticking time bomb. You're not responsible enough to have a constitutional right to something that potentially deadly.And it dawned on me how widespread this sort of thing probably is in America.So you hypersuperduper ultra elite gun nerds who have fancy guns and keep them in a safe and shoot them in your gun league -- you're right, your gun is probably not the one that will be part of the next tragedy. But it may well be. And if it's not, it may be ones that are far more irresponsibly maintained. And that's the problem.I'm sorry that we're screwing up your Thanksgiving fun, but it's not worth the risk. And I'm not making that decision for YOUR family, I make that decision for MY family.And I bet the parents of those 20 kids sure wish they could have made that decision to keep guns out of Mrs. Lanza's house.This is such easy math. I don't understand the pushback and never will.

I suspect this is a lot more prevalent than the gun guys are willing to admit.

Aside from leaving guns laying around where kids can get them, I'm not seeing the big deal here. Whenever we visit my parents, my dad always takes my kids (10 and 13) out shooting. I find it kind of boring personally, but I can undestand why some people enjoy it.

 

[badmojo1006]

All 31 Pro-Gun Senators invited to be on Meet The Press this morning refused to go on the show

 

[BeTheMatch]

sorry Otis but you just come off like a condescending ####### with a narrow minded view of others culture

actually he is an elightened responsible adult calling out the ridiculousness that is our gun "culture" and the refusal by gun owners to ever give an inch of re thinking what is appropriate or intended by the 2nd amendment.nobody should have automatic or semi automatic weapons. no civilian. period.owning guns is not a culture any more than bigotry or other ignorant behavior is.you want a single action rifle for hunting? fine. nothing else is acceptable. that is the middle ground this country should take.

 

[RCon]

sorry Otis but you just come off like a condescending ####### with a narrow minded view of others culture

actually he is an elightened responsible adult calling out the ridiculousness that is our gun "culture" and the refusal by gun owners to ever give an inch of re thinking what is appropriate or intended by the 2nd amendment.nobody should have automatic or semi automatic weapons. no civilian. period.owning guns is not a culture any more than bigotry or other ignorant behavior is.you want a single action rifle for hunting? fine. nothing else is acceptable. that is the middle ground this country should take.

Whether Otis is right or wrong on this issue, he's made it pretty clear that he is not an "elightened, responsible adult".

 

[Rayderr]

I think the overwhelming majority of gun owners are responsible owners who take it seriously. Sure, there are a few Yahoos who use them to change the TV channel or shoot their light switches on and off, but in the end; the responsible gun owner FAR outweighs the irresponsible one. That being said, having guns makes it easier for a person to do what this guy did. It makes it easier to kill a number of people in a shorter amount of time and it makes it harder for their intended targets to get away. But blaming guns for this is akin to blaming the auto industry for a drunk driver killing someone.

How do you know the bolded? I posted earlier in this thread about my personal experience with incredibly irresponsible gun owners.And all it takes is one. Like Mrs. Lanza.

I pointed out earlier in this thread that if we assume that every shooting (intentional, accidental, suicide) is done by a separate person (which we know is not the case) that works out to only .1% of the households with guns being involved in a shooting. So yeah, I'd say responsible gun owners far outweigh the irresponsible ones.

This is some of the worst, baseless, conclusory "analysis" I've ever seen on the internet.So you conclude that if an accident hasn't happened yet in a given household with guns, then it's a "responsible" household?

What a waste of time this thread is for all of us.

Well, that seems to be better than your theory of just assuming that people are irresponsible.

I'm also not making conclusory statements about what portion of the gun owning population is responsible vs. irresponsible. You are. My point is it takes exactly one irresponsible household to result in the deaths of 20 small children. And I'm pretty sure there's a lot more than one irresponsible household in this country. And the sad part is that these guns don't just impact that irresponsible household -- they result in the killing of the neighbors' kids. And that's the most screwed up part about this all.It's every bit as bad as drunk drivers. Why should I and my family have to live with the risks introduced by the bad decisions of others?

God Bless America

ok, let's say that .1% which we already know to be a gross overestimation of those that commit shootings (intententional, accidental, suicides) accounts for 1% of all "irresponsible gun owners" That still mean 90% of gun owners are responsible, which to me indicates that Thunderlips statement is correct.

 

[cobalt_27]

All 31 Pro-Gun Senators invited to be on Meet The Press this morning refused to go on the show

Of course they didn't. One, they're cowards. Two, there will be substantial changes, and they cannot compromise their position with comments they wish they would have back. Blood is on their hands, to be perfectly blunt. I think it would be very difficult to face the tough questions inevitably posed to them.

 

[Rayderr]

sorry Otis but you just come off like a condescending ####### with a narrow minded view of others culture

Shooting an AK-47 on a holiday isn't culture.

True. AK47s are also illegal in the US.

 

[Mr.Pack]

sorry Otis but you just come off like a condescending ####### with a narrow minded view of others culture

New here?

 

[Mr.Pack]

At the end of the day, my feeling is that there's been a few times in my life where my blood has really gotten up for whatever reason, some of the times justified, some of the times not. And if I had been packing, I probably would have drawn.

Seriously? I can't recall ever being that worked up, and you seem like a pretty even-tempered guy too.

I was thinking about this the past couple of days too. I have been really pissed, but never ever had I thought about shooting someone. Ever....

 

[cobalt_27]

From the MTP story about the senators...

One exception? Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) told Fox News Sunday that he believed more guns are the answer to violence in schools.

"I wish to god she had had an M4 in her office," he said of Sandy Hook Elementary School principal Dawn Hochsprung, who was killed in the shooting.

Stupid crazy people.

 

[moleculo]

I think that the majority of folks I know are gun owners - including people I grew up with and people I know now. Gun ownership is very much a cultural thing, I can't imagine a world without guns.

I'd like so say I don't know of anyone impacted by that's not true - I know 2 kids that committed suicide and one dude sitting in prison for murder. Don't think that no guns would have prevented suicide. If guns weren't available, they would OD or something. As far as the murder bit - that was a case where gun availability probably would have been a factor.

 

[Sweet Feet]

sorry Otis but you just come off like a condescending ####### with a narrow minded view of others culture

Culture is fine. A pet hog is cool. Southern grub is great. I hate country music but I can get that others like it. But I draw the line when a family of 12 is outside shooting an arsenal of deadly and irresponsibly-stored weapons in a field for fun. These are the people who are getting in the way of taking guns out of homes like Mrs. Lanza's, all because they like their rootin' tootin' fun after Thanksgiving dinner.This isn't about culture.

Its not just 1 particular thing on why I made the comment. You come off like a stereotypical elitist with this skewed view of people from different regions.And like I wrote before.. if you're beliefs are so strong then write to your congressman and be pro active outside of this forum.. I really would be curious to the responses and or feedback you get.Otherwise its a bunch of BS just so you can stand on your soap box and be lound

 

[Ranethe]

I once dated a girl from Georgia. We went to visit her family over Thanksgiving. They lived a ways outside of Atlanta. We went to her grandmother's house. It's one of these situations where the grandmother owns a plot of land, and it's subdivided and one kid builds a house on an adjacent lot, and the in-laws build next to that, etc. The arsenal of weapons these people owned was mindblowing. They proudly showed me around the house to the various stashes of guns, pistols, rifles, an AK47, etc. None under lock and key. Children lived all over these homes. After dinner, they got really amped up to go out and shoot the guns. I was so uncomfortable with the whole scene and wanted to play along and be accepted by the family. So out we go, back behind where the pet hog lives. And there's an area in a big field where you go to shoot guns. They set up some logs and some crap as targets.And so we go out back with a collection of shotguns, pistols, rifles, AK47 assault rifles, and other things I don't know the names of. And with a million rounds of ammunition. We took turns; even the aunts and grandma got in on the action. And there I was, a good ol' hillbilly, out in the field, shootin' some guns. All the while I was wondering about a bullet ricocheting; about people far out into the woods who might be going for a walk and get hit by a stray bullet; the kids standing around who might just grab one and start firing randomly. I was stunned at how irresponsible this was, and at how cavalier they were about this. And this was just totally normal and fine for them. I have no double that everyone else in the neighborhood would think this is fine and do the same exact things.Get some horseshoes. A bocce court. Find something else to do after Thanksgiving dinner. This is a ticking time bomb. You're not responsible enough to have a constitutional right to something that potentially deadly.And it dawned on me how widespread this sort of thing probably is in America.So you hypersuperduper ultra elite gun nerds who have fancy guns and keep them in a safe and shoot them in your gun league -- you're right, your gun is probably not the one that will be part of the next tragedy. But it may well be. And if it's not, it may be ones that are far more irresponsibly maintained. And that's the problem.I'm sorry that we're screwing up your Thanksgiving fun, but it's not worth the risk. And I'm not making that decision for YOUR family, I make that decision for MY family.And I bet the parents of those 20 kids sure wish they could have made that decision to keep guns out of Mrs. Lanza's house.This is such easy math. I don't understand the pushback and never will.

I suspect this is a lot more prevalent than the gun guys are willing to admit.

I've experienced a similar situation. Wife and I are friends with a couple (wife is friends with other woman since high school). Friend's husband is a good guy, I get along with him and he seems to have his #### together. He is also a pretty serious hunter and a gun nut. Several for hunting and owns a bunch of pistols as well. A few years back we were at their place for a 4th of July pig roast. Typical backyard summer party, lots of kids running around, lots of alcohol being consumed.They had a place near the back of their yard with a bunch of targets set up, and decided to shoot pistols. Now, this wasn't a total free for all, there was some level of caution being exercised. I still thought it was an incredibly bad idea-because of the combination of kids and alcohol. It's impossible to predict the unexpected, bizarre things can happen. But they went ahead with their target shooting.Nothing happened. Still think it was a really bad idea. To me it was just common sense to not go shooting guns at a party where there are kids, and where there is drinking. This guy has hunted all over the country, hunts deer every year, knows what he's doing. That tells me that common sense and experienced gun ownership don't always go together.Or, maybe as someone who doesn't know anything about guns I'm overstating the risks and there was nothing wrong with this scenario.

 

[badmojo1006]

From the MTP story about the senators...

One exception? Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) told Fox News Sunday that he believed more guns are the answer to violence in schools.

"I wish to god she had had an M4 in her office," he said of Sandy Hook Elementary School principal Dawn Hochsprung, who was killed in the shooting.

Stupid crazy people.

That man is an awful human being and the people of Texas should be ashamed for electing him to Congress

 

[Sweet Feet]

From the MTP story about the senators...

One exception? Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) told Fox News Sunday that he believed more guns are the answer to violence in schools.

"I wish to god she had had an M4 in her office," he said of Sandy Hook Elementary School principal Dawn Hochsprung, who was killed in the shooting.

Stupid crazy people.

Not sure what Mr. Gohmert was thinking with that comment...

 

[tjnc09]

CEDAR LAKE, Ind. — Authorities say an Indiana man who had 47 guns and ammunition in his home has been arrested after allegedly threatening to kill people at an elementary school near his home.

Cedar Lake police were called to the home of 60-year-old Von I. Meyer early Friday after he allegedly threatened to set his wife on fire. A police statement says Meyer also said he would enter Jane Ball Elementary School and "kill as many people as he could."

Authorities found 47 guns and ammunition worth over $100,000.

Prosecutors filed felony intimidation charges against Meyer on Saturday, one day after the massacre at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn. He is being held without bond.

Cedar Lake is about 45 miles southeast of Chicago.

UGH

 

[Steve Tasker]

sorry Otis but you just come off like a condescending ####### with a narrow minded view of others culture

actually he is an elightened responsible adult calling out the ridiculousness that is our gun "culture" and the refusal by gun owners to ever give an inch of re thinking what is appropriate or intended by the 2nd amendment.nobody should have automatic or semi automatic weapons. no civilian. period.owning guns is not a culture any more than bigotry or other ignorant behavior is.you want a single action rifle for hunting? fine. nothing else is acceptable. that is the middle ground this country should take.

Succinct and sums up my thoughts very well. Good posting here.

 

[sporthenry]

I think that the majority of folks I know are gun owners - including people I grew up with and people I know now. Gun ownership is very much a cultural thing, I can't imagine a world without guns.I'd like so say I don't know of anyone impacted by that's not true - I know 2 kids that committed suicide and one dude sitting in prison for murder. Don't think that no guns would have prevented suicide. If guns weren't available, they would OD or something. As far as the murder bit - that was a case where gun availability probably would have been a factor.

Dog fighting is also a culture thing. But nobody seems to mind much about banning that. Additionally, there are stats that back up that suicides go up with more guns. The stats with gun crimes aren't as damning but this whole, "it is going to happen either way" is a pretty terrible way to look at things. I could use that exact same argument about terrorists, it doesn't mean we should stop trying to stop it.

 

[Rayderr]

I think that the majority of folks I know are gun owners - including people I grew up with and people I know now. Gun ownership is very much a cultural thing, I can't imagine a world without guns.I'd like so say I don't know of anyone impacted by that's not true - I know 2 kids that committed suicide and one dude sitting in prison for murder. Don't think that no guns would have prevented suicide. If guns weren't available, they would OD or something. As far as the murder bit - that was a case where gun availability probably would have been a factor.

Dog fighting is also a culture thing. But nobody seems to mind much about banning that. Additionally, there are stats that back up that suicides go up with more guns. The stats with gun crimes aren't as damning but this whole, "it is going to happen either way" is a pretty terrible way to look at things. I could use that exact same argument about terrorists, it doesn't mean we should stop trying to stop it.

Yeah, we banned dogfighting. We didn't ban dogs.

 

[sporthenry]

I think that the majority of folks I know are gun owners - including people I grew up with and people I know now. Gun ownership is very much a cultural thing, I can't imagine a world without guns.I'd like so say I don't know of anyone impacted by that's not true - I know 2 kids that committed suicide and one dude sitting in prison for murder. Don't think that no guns would have prevented suicide. If guns weren't available, they would OD or something. As far as the murder bit - that was a case where gun availability probably would have been a factor.

Dog fighting is also a culture thing. But nobody seems to mind much about banning that. Additionally, there are stats that back up that suicides go up with more guns. The stats with gun crimes aren't as damning but this whole, "it is going to happen either way" is a pretty terrible way to look at things. I could use that exact same argument about terrorists, it doesn't mean we should stop trying to stop it.

Yeah, we banned dogfighting. We didn't ban dogs.

But dog fighting is a cultural thing just like guns are a cultural thing. Perhaps we just don't understand dog fighting b/c we didn't grow up with it? Additionally, perhaps this is a better analogy than I initially though. Yep, we didn't ban dogs, but does dog fighting still exist? Do we vet future dog owners?

 

[timschochet]

sorry Otis but you just come off like a condescending ####### with a narrow minded view of others culture

actually he is an elightened responsible adult calling out the ridiculousness that is our gun "culture" and the refusal by gun owners to ever give an inch of re thinking what is appropriate or intended by the 2nd amendment.nobody should have automatic or semi automatic weapons. no civilian. period.owning guns is not a culture any more than bigotry or other ignorant behavior is.you want a single action rifle for hunting? fine. nothing else is acceptable. that is the middle ground this country should take.

Succinct and sums up my thoughts very well. Good posting here.

It''s just not realistic. It's never going to happen. Why can't we concentrate on winnable goals: a national database, and end to the loophole, limiting the number of bullets in a magazine. These things are all doable, and if we concentrate on them and push as hard for them as the NRA is pushing against, we MIGHT get somewhere. But what you're talking about is a non-starter.

 

[sporthenry]

So apparently the bushmaster .223 is the same weapon the DC snipers used. The sniper attacks took place in 2002. The assault weapon ban was in effect then. Lot of good that did.

Just saw this. So what you are saying, is that a law abiding citizen in the great state of Connecticut, a mother of two, would have found a way to illegally obtain this bushmaster? Is she going to go the the ghetto of Hartford to get this gun? And I pose this question. Do you think banning this gun, would stop some gun crime? If this gun were banned? Whose rights are we abridging? I forgot where the Constitution said the right to bear arms shall be unregulated. We obviously have already regulated guns in that you can't have automatic weapons, so what more do you need to make that jump to this gun?

 

[jonessed]

sorry Otis but you just come off like a condescending ####### with a narrow minded view of others culture

actually he is an elightened responsible adult calling out the ridiculousness that is our gun "culture" and the refusal by gun owners to ever give an inch of re thinking what is appropriate or intended by the 2nd amendment.nobody should have automatic or semi automatic weapons. no civilian. period.owning guns is not a culture any more than bigotry or other ignorant behavior is.you want a single action rifle for hunting? fine. nothing else is acceptable. that is the middle ground this country should take.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I apologize if this was already discussed in this thread. But what ever happened to being able to institutionalize people? Didn't that essentially go away 40 or 50 years ago? So now you've got a lot of mentally ill people, many of which are homeless, wandering around?

It's the free market solution at work. Don't pay for their care, make sure they can be armed, and express shock when something bad happens. At least it's not socialism!

It has become a taboo in our society to treat people differently. It is a public outrage when somebody says the wrong word. Aren't these usually liberal talking points? Perhaps I am incorrect as somebody else in this thread seemed to think this was a GOP push also.

 

[BassNBrew]

sorry Otis but you just come off like a condescending ####### with a narrow minded view of others culture

actually he is an elightened responsible adult calling out the ridiculousness that is our gun "culture" and the refusal by gun owners to ever give an inch of re thinking what is appropriate or intended by the 2nd amendment.nobody should have automatic or semi automatic weapons. no civilian. period.owning guns is not a culture any more than bigotry or other ignorant behavior is.you want a single action rifle for hunting? fine. nothing else is acceptable. that is the middle ground this country should take.

Succinct and sums up my thoughts very well. Good posting here.

It''s just not realistic. It's never going to happen. Why can't we concentrate on winnable goals: a national database, and end to the loophole, limiting the number of bullets in a magazine. These things are all doable, and if we concentrate on them and push as hard for them as the NRA is pushing against, we MIGHT get somewhere. But what you're talking about is a non-starter.

Push for what bagger wants and I'm joining the NRA. Push for what Tim wants and I can be convinced to join that side.

 

[Rayderr]

So apparently the bushmaster .223 is the same weapon the DC snipers used. The sniper attacks took place in 2002. The assault weapon ban was in effect then. Lot of good that did.

Just saw this. So what you are saying, is that a law abiding citizen in the great state of Connecticut, a mother of two, would have found a way to illegally obtain this bushmaster? Is she going to go the the ghetto of Hartford to get this gun? And I pose this question. Do you think banning this gun, would stop some gun crime? If this gun were banned? Whose rights are we abridging? I forgot where the Constitution said the right to bear arms shall be unregulated. We obviously have already regulated guns in that you can't have automatic weapons, so what more do you need to make that jump to this gun?

In all honesty, I doubt the guy would've said, "Aww, man! I was all set to go on a murderous rampage, but I don't have a .223 Bushmaster. Oh well, maybe I'll go play some WoW instead." They guy did have handguns and would've just used those. Cho, the VT shooter, had just hand guns and managed to kill and injure more people than this Lanzo guy.

 

[Otis]

I think the overwhelming majority of gun owners are responsible owners who take it seriously. Sure, there are a few Yahoos who use them to change the TV channel or shoot their light switches on and off, but in the end; the responsible gun owner FAR outweighs the irresponsible one. That being said, having guns makes it easier for a person to do what this guy did. It makes it easier to kill a number of people in a shorter amount of time and it makes it harder for their intended targets to get away. But blaming guns for this is akin to blaming the auto industry for a drunk driver killing someone.

How do you know the bolded? I posted earlier in this thread about my personal experience with incredibly irresponsible gun owners.And all it takes is one. Like Mrs. Lanza.

I pointed out earlier in this thread that if we assume that every shooting (intentional, accidental, suicide) is done by a separate person (which we know is not the case) that works out to only .1% of the households with guns being involved in a shooting. So yeah, I'd say responsible gun owners far outweigh the irresponsible ones.

This is some of the worst, baseless, conclusory "analysis" I've ever seen on the internet.So you conclude that if an accident hasn't happened yet in a given household with guns, then it's a "responsible" household?

What a waste of time this thread is for all of us.

No Otis. I have disagreed with Rayderr a lot on this issue, but on this point is correct. Much earlier in this thread I pointed out how dangerous it is to make assumptions based on anecdotal evidence, and that is exactly what you are doing. Your argument is akin to arguing that in every household which has cars in the garage and a stocked liquor cabinet, there is bound to be a drunk driving incident.

No Tim, that's not what I'm saying.

 

[squistion]

Dianne Feinstein To Introduce Assault Weapons Ban On First Day Of Congress

WASHINGTON -- In the wake of Friday's mass killing at an elementary school in Connecticut, Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) said Sunday that she plans to introduce an assault weapons ban bill on the first day of the new Congress.

"I'm going to introduce in the Senate, and the same bill will be introduced in the House -- a bill to ban assault weapons," Feinstein said on NBC's "Meet the Press."

The shocking murder of 26 children and adults in Newtown, Conn., on Friday has sparked a national discussion on gun control, with mostly Democratic legislators saying laws need to be tightened.

President Bill Clinton signed an assault weapons ban into law in 1994, but the measure expired a decade later. Democrats have tried several times since then to renew the ban, without success.

Feinstein called for the ban to be renewed after the mass shooting in an Aurora, Colo., movie theater that killed 12 people and injured 58 others.

"Who needs these military-style assault weapons? Who needs an ammunition feeding device capable of holding 100 rounds?" Feinstein wrote on her campaign website. "These weapons are not for hunting deer -- they’re for hunting people."

On Sunday Feinstein laid out details of the bill.

"It will ban the sale, the transfer, the importation and the possession, not retroactively, but prospectively," and ban the sale of clips of more than ten bullets, Feinstein said. "The purpose of this bill is to get... weapons of war off the streets."

Feinstein would not comment on whether President Obama had failed to lead on gun control. "He is going to have a bill to lead on," she said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/dianne-feinstein-assault-weapons-ban_n_2311477.html

 

[Otis]

sorry Otis but you just come off like a condescending ####### with a narrow minded view of others culture

actually he is an elightened responsible adult calling out the ridiculousness that is our gun "culture" and the refusal by gun owners to ever give an inch of re thinking what is appropriate or intended by the 2nd amendment.nobody should have automatic or semi automatic weapons. no civilian. period.

owning guns is not a culture any more than bigotry or other ignorant behavior is.

you want a single action rifle for hunting? fine. nothing else is acceptable. that is the middle ground this country should take.

100% on board with this.

 

[Otis]

I once dated a girl from Georgia. We went to visit her family over Thanksgiving. They lived a ways outside of Atlanta. We went to her grandmother's house. It's one of these situations where the grandmother owns a plot of land, and it's subdivided and one kid builds a house on an adjacent lot, and the in-laws build next to that, etc. The arsenal of weapons these people owned was mindblowing. They proudly showed me around the house to the various stashes of guns, pistols, rifles, an AK47, etc. None under lock and key. Children lived all over these homes. After dinner, they got really amped up to go out and shoot the guns. I was so uncomfortable with the whole scene and wanted to play along and be accepted by the family. So out we go, back behind where the pet hog lives. And there's an area in a big field where you go to shoot guns. They set up some logs and some crap as targets.And so we go out back with a collection of shotguns, pistols, rifles, AK47 assault rifles, and other things I don't know the names of. And with a million rounds of ammunition. We took turns; even the aunts and grandma got in on the action. And there I was, a good ol' hillbilly, out in the field, shootin' some guns. All the while I was wondering about a bullet ricocheting; about people far out into the woods who might be going for a walk and get hit by a stray bullet; the kids standing around who might just grab one and start firing randomly. I was stunned at how irresponsible this was, and at how cavalier they were about this. And this was just totally normal and fine for them. I have no double that everyone else in the neighborhood would think this is fine and do the same exact things.Get some horseshoes. A bocce court. Find something else to do after Thanksgiving dinner. This is a ticking time bomb. You're not responsible enough to have a constitutional right to something that potentially deadly.And it dawned on me how widespread this sort of thing probably is in America.So you hypersuperduper ultra elite gun nerds who have fancy guns and keep them in a safe and shoot them in your gun league -- you're right, your gun is probably not the one that will be part of the next tragedy. But it may well be. And if it's not, it may be ones that are far more irresponsibly maintained. And that's the problem.I'm sorry that we're screwing up your Thanksgiving fun, but it's not worth the risk. And I'm not making that decision for YOUR family, I make that decision for MY family.And I bet the parents of those 20 kids sure wish they could have made that decision to keep guns out of Mrs. Lanza's house.This is such easy math. I don't understand the pushback and never will.

I suspect this is a lot more prevalent than the gun guys are willing to admit.

Aside from leaving guns laying around where kids can get them, I'm not seeing the big deal here. Whenever we visit my parents, my dad always takes my kids (10 and 13) out shooting. I find it kind of boring personally, but I can undestand why some people enjoy it.

Of course you're not.They can find something else to enjoy. If the upside is potentially avoiding another incident like Newtown, and the downside is your kids will have to go out and play horshoes with grandpa for fun instead of shooting stuff, how in god's name is there not an obvious right answer here?

 

[Otis]

All 31 Pro-Gun Senators invited to be on Meet The Press this morning refused to go on the show

Cowards.

 

[Otis]

I think the overwhelming majority of gun owners are responsible owners who take it seriously. Sure, there are a few Yahoos who use them to change the TV channel or shoot their light switches on and off, but in the end; the responsible gun owner FAR outweighs the irresponsible one. That being said, having guns makes it easier for a person to do what this guy did. It makes it easier to kill a number of people in a shorter amount of time and it makes it harder for their intended targets to get away. But blaming guns for this is akin to blaming the auto industry for a drunk driver killing someone.

How do you know the bolded? I posted earlier in this thread about my personal experience with incredibly irresponsible gun owners.And all it takes is one. Like Mrs. Lanza.

I pointed out earlier in this thread that if we assume that every shooting (intentional, accidental, suicide) is done by a separate person (which we know is not the case) that works out to only .1% of the households with guns being involved in a shooting. So yeah, I'd say responsible gun owners far outweigh the irresponsible ones.

This is some of the worst, baseless, conclusory "analysis" I've ever seen on the internet.So you conclude that if an accident hasn't happened yet in a given household with guns, then it's a "responsible" household?

What a waste of time this thread is for all of us.

Well, that seems to be better than your theory of just assuming that people are irresponsible.

I'm also not making conclusory statements about what portion of the gun owning population is responsible vs. irresponsible. You are. My point is it takes exactly one irresponsible household to result in the deaths of 20 small children. And I'm pretty sure there's a lot more than one irresponsible household in this country. And the sad part is that these guns don't just impact that irresponsible household -- they result in the killing of the neighbors' kids. And that's the most screwed up part about this all.It's every bit as bad as drunk drivers. Why should I and my family have to live with the risks introduced by the bad decisions of others?

God Bless America

ok, let's say that .1% which we already know to be a gross overestimation of those that commit shootings (intententional, accidental, suicides) accounts for 1% of all "irresponsible gun owners" That still mean 90% of gun owners are responsible, which to me indicates that Thunderlips statement is correct.

More hard hitting facts and statistical analysis.Just put the freaking guns away, gun nerds. They're dangerous. And for crap's sake, don't let your idiotic kids/spouses/family members/friends get them.

Jesus christ. You people are impossible.

 

[parasaurolophus]

All 31 Pro-Gun Senators invited to be on Meet The Press this morning refused to go on the show

Cowards.

Posts like this are exactly why it was smart for them not to go. The fact the news was even put out there shows they had an agenda.

 

[Steve Tasker]

sorry Otis but you just come off like a condescending ####### with a narrow minded view of others culture

actually he is an elightened responsible adult calling out the ridiculousness that is our gun "culture" and the refusal by gun owners to ever give an inch of re thinking what is appropriate or intended by the 2nd amendment.nobody should have automatic or semi automatic weapons. no civilian. period.owning guns is not a culture any more than bigotry or other ignorant behavior is.you want a single action rifle for hunting? fine. nothing else is acceptable. that is the middle ground this country should take.

Succinct and sums up my thoughts very well. Good posting here.

It''s just not realistic. It's never going to happen. Why can't we concentrate on winnable goals: a national database, and end to the loophole, limiting the number of bullets in a magazine. These things are all doable, and if we concentrate on them and push as hard for them as the NRA is pushing against, we MIGHT get somewhere. But what you're talking about is a non-starter.

Plenty of my political thoughts/beliefs will never happen. Doesn't mean that I can't believe them.

 

[Otis]

From the MTP story about the senators...

One exception? Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) told Fox News Sunday that he believed more guns are the answer to violence in schools.

"I wish to god she had had an M4 in her office," he said of Sandy Hook Elementary School principal Dawn Hochsprung, who was killed in the shooting.

Stupid crazy people.

Yeah if only the principal had am M4. She's have dodged a few bullets, ducked, rolled, gotten the keys out, unlocked the safe, pulled that sucker out, popped in a clip, and then gone Rambo on that poor kid. She'd have shown him but good.Idiots...

 

[Otis]

sorry Otis but you just come off like a condescending ####### with a narrow minded view of others culture

New here?

Ah yes, the beacon of education and enlightenment. Thank goodness you're here.

 

[sporthenry]

So apparently the bushmaster .223 is the same weapon the DC snipers used. The sniper attacks took place in 2002. The assault weapon ban was in effect then. Lot of good that did.

Just saw this. So what you are saying, is that a law abiding citizen in the great state of Connecticut, a mother of two, would have found a way to illegally obtain this bushmaster? Is she going to go the the ghetto of Hartford to get this gun? And I pose this question. Do you think banning this gun, would stop some gun crime? If this gun were banned? Whose rights are we abridging? I forgot where the Constitution said the right to bear arms shall be unregulated. We obviously have already regulated guns in that you can't have automatic weapons, so what more do you need to make that jump to this gun?

In all honesty, I doubt the guy would've said, "Aww, man! I was all set to go on a murderous rampage, but I don't have a .223 Bushmaster. Oh well, maybe I'll go play some WoW instead." They guy did have handguns and would've just used those. Cho, the VT shooter, had just hand guns and managed to kill and injure more people than this Lanzo guy.

I know this fallacy has become "facts" to gun rights activists. That no matter what we do, the criminals will always win unless we give everyone guns. That the criminals will always find a way. Could I not make the same about terrorists? No matter what we do, we'll never be completely secure and there will always be terrorist attacks? Should we just open the border and stop all the TSA stuff?Do you think that a Bushmaster or any other semi-automatic rifle is more deadly than a single shot rifle?

 

[BassNBrew]

More hard hitting facts and statistical analysis.Just put the freaking guns away, gun nerds. They're dangerous. And for crap's sake, don't let your idiotic kids/spouses/family members/friends get them.Jesus christ. You people are impossible.

Have you put your alcohol away Oats?

 

[Sweet Feet]

sorry Otis but you just come off like a condescending ####### with a narrow minded view of others culture

New here?

 

[Otis]

I once dated a girl from Georgia. We went to visit her family over Thanksgiving. They lived a ways outside of Atlanta. We went to her grandmother's house. It's one of these situations where the grandmother owns a plot of land, and it's subdivided and one kid builds a house on an adjacent lot, and the in-laws build next to that, etc. The arsenal of weapons these people owned was mindblowing. They proudly showed me around the house to the various stashes of guns, pistols, rifles, an AK47, etc. None under lock and key. Children lived all over these homes. After dinner, they got really amped up to go out and shoot the guns. I was so uncomfortable with the whole scene and wanted to play along and be accepted by the family. So out we go, back behind where the pet hog lives. And there's an area in a big field where you go to shoot guns. They set up some logs and some crap as targets.And so we go out back with a collection of shotguns, pistols, rifles, AK47 assault rifles, and other things I don't know the names of. And with a million rounds of ammunition. We took turns; even the aunts and grandma got in on the action. And there I was, a good ol' hillbilly, out in the field, shootin' some guns. All the while I was wondering about a bullet ricocheting; about people far out into the woods who might be going for a walk and get hit by a stray bullet; the kids standing around who might just grab one and start firing randomly. I was stunned at how irresponsible this was, and at how cavalier they were about this. And this was just totally normal and fine for them. I have no double that everyone else in the neighborhood would think this is fine and do the same exact things.Get some horseshoes. A bocce court. Find something else to do after Thanksgiving dinner. This is a ticking time bomb. You're not responsible enough to have a constitutional right to something that potentially deadly.And it dawned on me how widespread this sort of thing probably is in America.So you hypersuperduper ultra elite gun nerds who have fancy guns and keep them in a safe and shoot them in your gun league -- you're right, your gun is probably not the one that will be part of the next tragedy. But it may well be. And if it's not, it may be ones that are far more irresponsibly maintained. And that's the problem.I'm sorry that we're screwing up your Thanksgiving fun, but it's not worth the risk. And I'm not making that decision for YOUR family, I make that decision for MY family.And I bet the parents of those 20 kids sure wish they could have made that decision to keep guns out of Mrs. Lanza's house.This is such easy math. I don't understand the pushback and never will.

I suspect this is a lot more prevalent than the gun guys are willing to admit.

I've experienced a similar situation. Wife and I are friends with a couple (wife is friends with other woman since high school). Friend's husband is a good guy, I get along with him and he seems to have his #### together. He is also a pretty serious hunter and a gun nut. Several for hunting and owns a bunch of pistols as well. A few years back we were at their place for a 4th of July pig roast. Typical backyard summer party, lots of kids running around, lots of alcohol being consumed.They had a place near the back of their yard with a bunch of targets set up, and decided to shoot pistols. Now, this wasn't a total free for all, there was some level of caution being exercised. I still thought it was an incredibly bad idea-because of the combination of kids and alcohol. It's impossible to predict the unexpected, bizarre things can happen. But they went ahead with their target shooting.Nothing happened. Still think it was a really bad idea. To me it was just common sense to not go shooting guns at a party where there are kids, and where there is drinking. This guy has hunted all over the country, hunts deer every year, knows what he's doing. That tells me that common sense and experienced gun ownership don't always go together.Or, maybe as someone who doesn't know anything about guns I'm overstating the risks and there was nothing wrong with this scenario.

Exactly. I suspect many of the gun nuts here would characterize this guy as an educated, experienced gun owner. This is a complete lack of common sense. That's how accidents happen, or worse than accidents.

 

[Otis]

CEDAR LAKE, Ind. — Authorities say an Indiana man who had 47 guns and ammunition in his home has been arrested after allegedly threatening to kill people at an elementary school near his home.Cedar Lake police were called to the home of 60-year-old Von I. Meyer early Friday after he allegedly threatened to set his wife on fire. A police statement says Meyer also said he would enter Jane Ball Elementary School and "kill as many people as he could."Authorities found 47 guns and ammunition worth over $100,000.Prosecutors filed felony intimidation charges against Meyer on Saturday, one day after the massacre at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn. He is being held without bond.Cedar Lake is about 45 miles southeast of Chicago.UGH

He needed those 47 guns. For his hobby and stuff. Stars n' Stripes!!!

 

[Apple Jack]

All 31 Pro-Gun Senators invited to be on Meet The Press this morning refused to go on the show

Cowards.

Posts like this are exactly why it was smart for them not to go. The fact the news was even put out there shows they had an agenda.

Oh, no, not an agenda! These poor public servants should not be made to answer for their voting history and their beliefs. Certainly not on television! What if somebody has an agenda!

 

[Otis]

I think that the majority of folks I know are gun owners - including people I grew up with and people I know now. Gun ownership is very much a cultural thing, I can't imagine a world without guns.I'd like so say I don't know of anyone impacted by that's not true - I know 2 kids that committed suicide and one dude sitting in prison for murder. Don't think that no guns would have prevented suicide. If guns weren't available, they would OD or something. As far as the murder bit - that was a case where gun availability probably would have been a factor.

Dog fighting is also a culture thing. But nobody seems to mind much about banning that. Additionally, there are stats that back up that suicides go up with more guns. The stats with gun crimes aren't as damning but this whole, "it is going to happen either way" is a pretty terrible way to look at things. I could use that exact same argument about terrorists, it doesn't mean we should stop trying to stop it.

Yeah, we banned dogfighting. We didn't ban dogs.

Well, unfortunately we tried banning shooting children in elementary schools, and it's not working that well.