Official Hillary Clinton 2016 thread (6 Viewers)

[timschochet]

by Robby Mook

Nope, but what if it was? It's still all true, isn't it? 

 

[Slapdash]

Don't see leaking covered in their oath:

I [name] do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.

So when my government leaders try to keep unethical and illegal behaviors from the American people.....lets go around them and make this information known! 

Read all about the sleezy Clinton emails etc.....you still want to vote for her? I'm afraid that's really "dangerous" stuff you all keep harping about.

I think it is important that people are taking an oath to the Constitution and not the government itself (as others stated).  I agree with the philosophy of whistleblowers like Snowden , Drake, and etc.

I'm still on the fence, personally, about what I'm going to vote for as president.  These recent leaks are just more of the same; those paying attention have long known who the Clintons are.

 

[The Commish]

More like the Maple Valley Middle School JV team going up against Sisters of Mercy Home for the Cognitively Impaired.

 

 

[Boston]

Is Huma ok? Anyone seen her or she still in timeout? God forbid suicide by gunshot to the back of the head. 

Tough couple of months for Huma...married to a sexting pedophile and now gonna get kicked to the curb by Hillary...if this was wrestling she would show up in full Muslim Brotherhood garb and start taking people out with a metal chair...

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

Nope, but what if it was? It's still all true, isn't it? 

no, this line is a lie:

Hillary is not the lesser of two evils. There’s only one evil in this race

 

[Jrodicus]

Welp.  Down to 69% at 9:25am.

Wonder what happens when they adjust FL, NC, and NV based on the recent polls...

 

[Sinn Fein]

Is Huma ok? Anyone seen her or she still in timeout? God forbid suicide by gunshot to the back of the head. 

Pics of her dropping her kid off at school yesterday or Monday.

Brave going out in public.  Its a dangerous world out there.

 

[Slapdash]

no, this line is a lie:

Hillary is not the lesser of two evils. There’s only one evil in this race

That whole opinion piece is a steaming pile of crap.  No wonder given who posted it.

 

[jerry jones]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/11/02/donald-trump-can-t-merely-be-defeated-he-and-his-deplorables-must-be-crushed.html

It’s not enough for Donald Trump to just lose this election. He must get crushed. Why? Simple, we need to send a message to Trump—as well as to the rest of our nation—that his sexism, bigotry, and racism have no place in America. And perhaps more importantly this would send a powerful message to Trump’s white supremacist and anti-Semitic fans that we will not sit by as Trump mainstreams their hate.
Those are the stakes. Yet stunningly a Washington Post poll released Tuesday finds that enthusiasm among Hillary Clinton supporters is dropping given FBI director’s James Comey’s irresponsibly timed letter about emails found on Huma Abedin’s computer. 
Trump and the hate mongers of his base want you to lose enthusiasm. They hope good people sit home and let hate triumph. We can’t allow that.



Let’s be blunt: Trump has served up the most vile, despicable garbage we have seen from a major party presidential nominee ever. And that’s not just my view but also people who have been active in politics for decades, such as Ralph Nader and Barney Frank, who shared that exact sentiment while guests on my SiriusXM radio show.




There’s no moral equivalence between what Clinton has done—or even allegedly done—regarding emails and Trump’s hate-filled fear mongering. Just on Sunday Trump claimed that Clinton would allow “650 million” immigrants “to pour” into our country. That is an absolute lie as noted by the nonpartisan Politifact. But the idea of keeping America a white majority country is red meat for Trump’s xenophobic base.
In that same speech Trump went on to fear-monger about Muslims—something he has been doing since his lie last fall that “thousands” of Muslims cheered in New Jersey on 9/11. This time he claimed that allowing even one Syrian refugee in the country would mean “generations of terrorism” that soon will be “spreading to your schools and communities.”
This type of rhetoric is nothing new for Trump. In fact literally day one of his campaign he began spewing hate when he lied that Mexico was sending rapists. Later he went on to mock a disabled reporter, claim that American-born Judge Gonzalo Curiel should be disqualified from presiding over the fraud lawsuit against Trump because he’s a “Mexican,” and defended his white supporters beating up a Black Lives Matter protester. He has claimed “Islam hates us,” bragged about sexually assaulting women (in the Access Hollywood tape), and made sexist remarks about Megyn Kelly and Carly Fiorina.
And despicably, just 10 days ago he claimed that the 11 women who courageously came forward to report that Trump sexually assaulted them were “liars,” telling a cheering crowd: “Every woman lied when they came forward to hurt my campaign.”
Forget politics for a moment. Trump’s attack on these women will no doubt make other women who are sexually assaulted less likely to come forward. Why? Well, if a major political candidate like Trump can call victims of sexual assault liars to the cheers of thousands of Americans, this sends a message to women across the nation that they may be subject to the same type of abuse.


Imagine a President Trump having the mantle of the presidency and demonizing minorities, stoking hate against Muslims, and shaming women. And if you are going to tell me he will change as president, you’re being an apologist for his hate.
However, the most alarming aspect of this election is that Trump has emboldened the scum of our nation. I’m talking specifically the white supremacist and their ilk openly supporting Trump. These people have crawled out from the shadows thanks to Trump.  On Tuesday the KKK’s official paper dedicated its front page to express proud support for Trump noting he best represents the “white Christian Republic” they envision to make America great again.
On Monday one prominent white supremacist launched robocalls trying to help Trump in the battleground state of Utah by claiming conservative third party candidate Evan McMullin is gay. And in September other leaders of the white nationalist movement held a press conference in Washington, D.C., only blocks from the White House, where they expressed their support for Trump and their vision for making America a white homeland that will be free of Jews
These Jew-hating white supremacists have launched a wave of anti-Semitic attacks on social media. The Daily Beast’s Jay Michaelson recently wrote about the Anti-Defamation League’s report documenting the chilling rise in anti-Semitic tweets that the league connects to Trump’s candidacy.
In fact, CNN’s Jake Tapper noted Sunday while interviewing Trump’s campaign manager Kellyanne Conway that a Trump supporter at a campaign event was yelling at the media  “Jew-S-A.” Tapper explained that anti-Semites and racists feel a “comfort level” with the Trump campaign yet Trump has alarmingly only responded with a pro forma “I disavow.”
Tapper is 100 percent correct. Trump has shown no hesitation calling people like Senator Elizabeth Warren a “racist” and a “fraud” but has never used such harsh language to describe the anti-Semites and white supremacists supporting him. Indeed, when Trump was given a chance in May on CNN to point blank denounce the anti-Semitic attacks by his supporters on Jewish journalists who had criticized Trump, he responded “I have no message.” Clearly Trump is sending them a message to stay on the Trump train.
Despite what some want you to believe, in the race between Trump and Clinton, Hillary is not the lesser of two evils. There’s only one evil in this race and his name is Donald Trump. And we must unite to crush him come Election Day. Anything else will make Trump and his deplorables believe that their hateful views have a place in mainstream America. And we cannot let that happen.

 
 
 



 

So much crazy....

 

[timschochet]

no, this line is a lie:

Hillary is not the lesser of two evils. There’s only one evil in this race

It is absolutely 100% true. You may believe  Hillary may be an awful choice and an awful person. But unless you're a full blown conspiracy theory guy she's not evil. Evil is a word that should not be used lightly. 

 

[jerry jones]

no, this line is a lie:

Hillary is not the lesser of two evils. There’s only one evil in this race

Tim Kaine?

 

[TLEF316]

Very few neutrals are saying Trump ISNT a scumbag. We know he is. Unless you buy the super tin foil hat conspiracy theories that the Clintons have had people killed ,  he's obviously worse than hillary.

But dismissing all the hillary criticisms as "innuendo" just makes her supporters look like they have their eyes closed, fingers in their ears screaming "lalalalallala" over and over again.  

 

[Sinn Fein]

In reality, she isn't losing ANY of these barring either an unprecedented polling miss or a freak asteroid strike.

Did you know that in Michigan, she led Bernie by 21 points right up to the primary vote?  The primary where she lost by 1.5 points?  

The polls were off by a whopping 22 points....seems like precedence to me...

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

It is absolutely 100% true. You may believe  Hillary may be an awful choice and an awful person. But unless you're a full blown conspiracy theory guy she's not evil. Evil is a word that should not be used lightly. 

Its 6:30 in the morning in CA and you're having an aneurism already today.  

 

[Northern Voice]

That whole opinion piece is a steaming pile of crap.  No wonder given who posted it.

What's untrue in it?

 

[Jrodicus]

I love it when people cite Truman/Dewey as an example of incorrect polling.  There wasn't a single poll taken after October 25th in that election.  It is now November 2nd and Hillary still has the lead in nearly every single poll in those firewall states.

I love when people glaze over valid points and pick on a single thing with which they disagree.

Sounds like you were aware of the large swing in that election, yet you still made a claim that you knew was false about there needing to be an "unprecedented" miss. 

The election that year was Nov. 2nd; if the last poll was taken Oct. 25th, that means it would've been taken the Monday before the election.

You're going to try and invalidate a poll taken a week and a day before the election?  Seriously, that's your argument? 

 

[HellToupee]

It is absolutely 100% true. You may believe  Hillary may be an awful choice and an awful person. But unless you're a full blown conspiracy theory guy she's not evil. Evil is a word that should not be used lightly. 

She runs a racketeering  enterprise 

 

[Mister CIA]

Quick Hillary, send the band out onto the field.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Very few neutrals are saying Trump ISNT a scumbag. We know he is. Unless you buy the super tin foil hat conspiracy theories that the Clintons have had people killed ,  he's obviously worse than hillary.

But dismissing all the hillary criticisms as "innuendo" just makes her supporters look like they have their eyes closed, fingers in their ears screaming "lalalalallala" over and over again.  

To be fair, her supporters also look like they have their eyes closed and fingers in their ears screaming "lalalalallala" because their eyes are closed, and their fingers are in their ears, and they are screaming "lalalalallala".

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

So much crazy....

So the article talks about all the crazy Trump stuff, and yet the part you latched on was the bolded? Seriously? It's the same mentality where emails make someone a vile, corrupt criminal, but a real disgusting sexist and bigot gets the support. That's the problem in a nutshell right there.

New attribute for the Trump supporter: White, undereducated men, who are stubbornly clueless, and their wives. Hope you're proud of your vote.

 

[knowledge dropper]

And, Michigan making mistakes all over the field, guys are getting ejected, and the crowd is losing its mind.  Trying to run out the clock.  The game can't end soon enough.

The Hillary camp is pulling a Jeremy Hill, Adam Jones and Vontaze Burfict.  

 

[Jrodicus]

Very few neutrals are saying Trump ISNT a scumbag. We know he is. Unless you buy the super tin foil hat conspiracy theories that the Clintons have had people killed ,  he's obviously worse than hillary.

But dismissing all the hillary criticisms as "innuendo" just makes her supporters look like they have their eyes closed, fingers in their ears screaming "lalalalallala" over and over again.  

Do drone strikes count?

 

[jerry jones]

So the article talks about all the crazy Trump stuff, and yet the part you latched on was the bolded? Seriously? It's the same mentality where emails make someone a vile, corrupt criminal, but a real disgusting sexist and bigot gets the support. That's the problem in a nutshell right there.

New attribute for the Trump supporter: White, undereducated men, who are stubbornly clueless, and their wives. Hope you're proud of your vote.

I'll take a non criminal vs a criminal and her cover up cronies any day

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

Very few neutrals are saying Trump ISNT a scumbag. We know he is. Unless you buy the super tin foil hat conspiracy theories that the Clintons have had people killed ,  he's obviously worse than hillary.

But dismissing all the hillary criticisms as "innuendo" just makes her supporters look like they have their eyes closed, fingers in their ears screaming "lalalalallala" over and over again.  

It's not that. There are very few people with ardent support for Hillary. It's begrudging at best. It's the mouth breathing Trump supporters that actually think he's a good choice that's the problem. I don't have a problem with Donald: he is who he is, which is unfit for President. People who still support him? Unthinkable for reasonable people who have eyes and ears that work.

 

[Sand]

No ####, but the FBI agents shouldn't be leaking any of this either way. 

In the past almost all of these kind of leaks came from the political class.  But, I agree, the FBI should be air tight here.

Which of her firewall states (Pennsylvania, Colorado, Michigan, Wisconsin, Virginia) is she going to lose? Because she has to lose one of these for Trump to be elected, even if he wins ALL of the battlegrounds. 

Trump can win without winning any of these.  Come on, Tim.  I'm sure you've played with the scenarios a ton of times.

 

[Jrodicus]

New attribute for the Trump supporter: White, undereducated men, who are stubbornly clueless, and their wives. Hope you're proud of your vote.

...and vote for Hillary because the Dems are unifiers.

 

[Billy Bats]

She runs a racketeering  enterprise 

People tend to get killed in that kind of business. A friend told me that.  

 

[Slapdash]

What's untrue in it?

That we should deliver a crushing victory to a terrible candidate in order to demoralize the supporters of a somewhat worse candidate.

 

[Sand]

Is Huma ok? Anyone seen her or she still in timeout? God forbid suicide by gunshot to the back of the head. 

Gotta feel bad for her.  

This what the Clintons do and have always done, though.  Use someone up and throw them away or under the bus as soon as they aren't convenient.  This is the kind of president people will be electing.  Want to talk evil?  Here it is on display.

 

[Koya]

no, this line is a lie:

Hillary is not the lesser of two evils. There’s only one evil in this race

It's only a lie if you are gullible enough to have been brainwashed by the media over the last year, acutely, and over the past 20 years in general.

You know, that same media the right rails against? It's bamboozled you all into sychophants of the alt-right.  You've been caught, hook line and sinker.  What within so many people drives a willingness and desire to hate this woman (whom I don't like mind you, but the venom and constant attacks are utterly unwarranted and will be a historic stain upon this nation's story)? 

Oh, that's right... just as the right claims, people are sheep.  They just don't realize that they are the ones being suckered into believing a made up, exaggerated construct that is designed not to benefit you sheep, but rather the oligarchy on the right that controls you.

 

[TLEF316]

Do drone strikes count?

Nah

 

[Sinn Fein]

In the past almost all of these kind of leaks came from the political class.  But, I agree, the FBI should be air tight here.

Trump can win without winning any of these.  Come on, Tim.  I'm sure you've played with the scenarios a ton of times.

Colorado is a pretty key state.  Trump can win without Colorado but it would be an important state for him to target - its a very narrow range without colorado 

I think Pennsylvania is out of reach, Virginia and Wisconsin would be a stretch.  If Trump can carry some momentum from Ohio over to Michigan, maybe he can pull the upset in Michigan, and I think Colorado is still a state Trump would like to get.

Bottom line, Hillary is stumbling to the finish, but she should still be able to finish by a head...

 

[Sand]

BTW, I'm very disappointed in how the day has started.  No new criminal enterprises, sex tapes, FBI bombshells so far.

 

[Northern Voice]

Gotta feel bad for her.  

This what the Clintons do and have always done, though.  Use someone up and throw them away or under the bus as soon as they aren't convenient.  This is the kind of president people will be electing.  Want to talk evil?  Here it is on display.

That's also what they're doing to Trump

 

[Koya]

People tend to get killed in that kind of business. A friend told me that.  

Stop it. This tact is simply grotesque.  It says a lot about those who make and support comments like this. Disgusting, Anti-American, utterly unpatriotic and anti-democracy.

Showing true colors, and those colors are of a terribly weak and faulted human being to keep going back to the "oh, she gonna get killed... better watch for Hillary's henchmen" Even by the utterly low standards of Trump's campaign, this (should be) below you and such outrageous and sad comments must be met with derision by anyone who believes in our institutions, our nation and our founding principles.

 

[cobalt_27]

Did you know that in Michigan, she led Bernie by 21 points right up to the primary vote?  The primary where she lost by 1.5 points?  

The polls were off by a whopping 22 points....seems like precedence to me...

Nate Silver has lamented several times there that the polls are seriously lacking in quality and that he doesn't trust them.

 

[TobiasFunke]

BTW, I'm very disappointed in how the day has started.  No new criminal enterprises, sex tapes, FBI bombshells so far.

Well, no new Clinton ones. Trump, though ...

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Is Huma ok? Anyone seen her or she still in timeout? God forbid suicide by gunshot to the back of the head. 

She is not traveling with the campaign but supposedly has been at Brooklyn HQ. I'm guessing she has been meeting with lawyers and decompressing. But she's not at Hillary's side, which is a change.

 

[cobalt_27]

Stop it. This tact is simply grotesque.  It says a lot about those who make and support comments like this. Disgusting, Anti-American, utterly unpatriotic and anti-democracy.

Showing true colors, and those colors are of a terribly weak and faulted human being to keep going back to the "oh, she gonna get killed... better watch for Hillary's henchmen" Even by the utterly low standards of Trump's campaign, this (should be) below you and such outrageous and sad comments must be met with derision by anyone who believes in our institutions, our nation and our founding principles.

Agree with all of this.  I hate Hillary as much as the next guy, but you can't go there.  

 

[Boston]

BTW, I'm very disappointed in how the day has started.  No new criminal enterprises, sex tapes, FBI bombshells so far.

It's a different time-zone in Russia...they're not up yet...

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Well, no new Clinton ones. Trump, though ...

It's not like the press hasn't been dropping hand grenades over Trump. He just suffers from/enjoys the shell shock of the voters who seem numb to these reports now.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

It's only a lie if you are gullible enough to have been brainwashed by the media over the last year, acutely, and over the past 20 years in general.

You know, that same media the right rails against? It's bamboozled you all into sychophants of the alt-right.  You've been caught, hook line and sinker.  What within so many people drives a willingness and desire to hate this woman (whom I don't like mind you, but the venom and constant attacks are utterly unwarranted and will be a historic stain upon this nation's story)? 

Oh, that's right... just as the right claims, people are sheep.  They just don't realize that they are the ones being suckered into believing a made up, exaggerated construct that is designed not to benefit you sheep, but rather the oligarchy on the right that controls you.

Who bamboozled you into thinking I'm part of the alt-right?  I financially supported and voted for Bernie in the primary.  I don't hate Hillary but I definitely don't like her and by no means will I ever vote for her.  I think there is plenty of evidence out there that can lead an independent thinker into severely questioning the relationship between The Clinton Foundation, CGI, Teneo and The Clintons themselves.

I've gone out of my way to not personally attack posters in this thread for having a different opinion than me (I haven't always been successful) so not sure why you have made false assumptions about me and my views and then turned that into insults.  

 

[cstu]

Well, no new Clinton ones. Trump, though ...

A newly uncovered video appears to contradict Donald Trump’s claim that he never knew a high-stakes gambler who was banned from New Jersey casinos for alleged ties to organized crime.

The reputed mob figure, Robert LiButti, can be seen standing alongside Trump in the front row of a 1988 “WrestleMania” match in Atlantic City, N.J. LiButti wasn’t there by accident, according to his daughter, Edith Creamer, who also attended the event. “We were his guests,” she told Yahoo News in a text message this week.

The video was given to Yahoo News by a confidential source who discovered it in the online archives of World Wrestling Entertainment, the sponsor of “WrestleMania.”

The video appears to lend new support to assertions Trump once had close relations with LiButti, who was banned from the state’s casinos in 1991 because of his ties to Mafia boss John Gotti, then the chief of the Gambino crime syndicate. Separately, the New Jersey Casino Control Commission that same year levied $650,000 in fines against the Trump Plaza hotel over its dealings with LiButti, who gambled huge sums at the hotel’s casino. LiButti died in 2014.

“That’s definitely Bob LiButti standing right next to Donald Trump,” said David Cay Johnston, an author and former Pulitzer Prize-winning New York Times journalist who, as a reporter for the Philadelphia Inquirer, extensively interviewed the gambler in the early 1990s. At the request of Yahoo News, Johnston reviewed the video of the “WrestleMania IV” contest, held at the Atlantic City Convention Hall on March 27, 1988. “It’s at an event that Bob described to me a quarter century ago when I spent an afternoon in his Saddle River home,” Johnston added. “The ‘WrestleMania’ event is just one of many times that Trump was close to Bob, who was the biggest loser at Trump casinos and therefore Trump’s most important customer.”

 

[Billy Bats]

Stop it. This tact is simply grotesque.  It says a lot about those who make and support comments like this. Disgusting, Anti-American, utterly unpatriotic and anti-democracy.

Showing true colors, and those colors are of a terribly weak and faulted human being to keep going back to the "oh, she gonna get killed... better watch for Hillary's henchmen" Even by the utterly low standards of Trump's campaign, this (should be) below you and such outrageous and sad comments must be met with derision by anyone who believes in our institutions, our nation and our founding principles.

Calm down man, do you not know who Billy Batts is?? It was more of a joke on my username, racketeering,  and my past "experiences".   

FTR going forward, I'm not an ardent Trump guy, not even sure I'm casting a vote for president yet. 

 

[Sinn Fein]

Maybe Trump was just acting as a go between for the Mafia and the Russian Mob - showing good diplomatic and negotiating skills...

 

[Autumn Wind]

PEC's updated EV projection has Hillary strongly in the 300-330 range, FWIW.

http://election.princeton.edu/history-of-meta-analysis/

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Yeah it is...their job is not to leak this stuff either way.  Seriously they take an oath not to do this.  They don't get some get out of jail public interest card to disclose things as they see fit. 

Hey remember when what the FBI did to Nixon in Watergate was awesome?

 

[Jrodicus]

Colorado is a pretty key state.  Trump can win without Colorado but it would be an important state for him to target - its a very narrow range without colorado 

I think Pennsylvania is out of reach, Virginia and Wisconsin would be a stretch.  If Trump can carry some momentum from Ohio over to Michigan, maybe he can pull the upset in Michigan, and I think Colorado is still a state Trump would like to get.

Bottom line, Hillary is stumbling to the finish, but she should still be able to finish by a head...

I agree except with Michigan. It could happen, but I would be more surprised if it went red than if Colorado did. 

 

[TobiasFunke]

Too much to keep up with but there was a major report out just a day or so ago about Trump's supporting this guy at his hotels.

It's not like the hasn't been dropping hand grenades over Trump. He just suffers from/enjoys the shell shock of the voters who seem numb to these reports now.

The whole article is something else.  Stories of Trump getting fined under anti-discrimination laws for indulging this guy's request to clear women and minorities from his tables (including dealers and pit bosses), Trump lying under oath about knowing the guy, a fun tale about Trump hitting on his married daughter and the mobster threatening to "####### pull his balls from between his legs," and so on.

Some of it is old news, but the video (and text from the guy's daughter) confirming a relationship Trump has repeatedly denied is news.  And it's from Michael Isikoff, not some random Yahoo reporter.  So it might get some legs.

 

[Koya]

It really says something not only about Trump, but his base of support, that I have had to so vigorously defend a woman I absolutely can't stand.  The small minded, anachronistic hate and vitriol, the rabid desire to pass along stories with no basis, no true sources and an excitement about spreading the worst lies and inflammatory hyperbole does demonstrate a legitimate frustration with the system, but also clearly shows that those who employ such disingenuous tactics are also inexcusably copping out in terms of how their frustration is being vented.

Seriously, don't you Trumpers have enough cojones to actually address the real issues, the real concerns? What within you makes you feel it's ok to spread not only lies and bull####, but to do so in a way that highlights our divisions rather than looking to find any set of common ground? Why is it that the entire vocal right is an attack dog rather than a fellow-citizen, and why are they so weak of heart and with lack of actual substance to continue to resort to these base measures?

The lasting impression of this election for me will be of a truly saddened state for our nation.  We are no longer one nation, and that reality is not only being pushed by the right, it's being exploited for their (and if you are a Trumper, your) own gain, literally at the expense of our nation as a whole. I'd ask do you feel no shame, but it's pretty clear when you see footage of your mindset in action at Trump rallies, in the tone of your posts here or facebook... it's clear that many of you really don't feel any shame.  Not if it forwards your particular candidate, your particular world view - and sometimes it feels that if as a result of this certain segments of our population suffer as a result (those segments not aligned with your politics), that is a bonus. As if it's a plus not only for you to forward your political agenda, but to actually harm folks who don't agree. 

Never felt this with Romney, nor Bush (he was a clueless danger, but of good heart imo)... no one.  Trump has energized and brought out the worst in you all, and it's sad to see although I suppose it's forcing us as a nation to reconcile the long march of equality and freedom with the fear of a still relatively small component of our population that wants to stop it, if only to ensure that their piece of the pie remains intact, even at and perhaps especially at, the expense of others.