*** Official Lost Season 6 *** (2 Viewers)

[The Dude]

God I can't believe I'm about to type this sentence, but with this show anything goes I guess.Do you think Jacob and the "Nemesis" (just as gay as a name as Man In Black, btw) were occupying other bodies before Locke and the crew got there? Like they aren't necessarily humans, but some kind of spirit form? And the bodies that we saw them in as Jacob and Nemesis are just two other people that previously had made their way to the island?

My best guess is that they're representatives of God/Satan. Angels, I guess. Hence Norwood's comment about wanting to go home.Of course, that would probably mean that free will = Satan, and predestination = God, non?

Actualy, free will should equal God. That's the premise of believing. And more than once, Jacob has said something to the effect of "You have a choice."

 

[Sea Ropes]

God I can't believe I'm about to type this sentence, but with this show anything goes I guess.Do you think Jacob and the "Nemesis" (just as gay as a name as Man In Black, btw) were occupying other bodies before Locke and the crew got there? Like they aren't necessarily humans, but some kind of spirit form? And the bodies that we saw them in as Jacob and Nemesis are just two other people that previously had made their way to the island?

My best guess is that they're representatives of God/Satan. Angels, I guess. Hence Norwood's comment about wanting to go home.Of course, that would probably mean that free will = Satan, and predestination = God, non?

Actualy, free will should equal God. That's the premise of believing. And more than once, Jacob has said something to the effect of "You have a choice."

So Satan/Norwood would be predestination?

 

[Sleeping King]

Does anybody understand MIB's loophole? I don't get what the loophole was.

As I understand it the loophole was someone leaving the island through the donkey wheel and then returning. Smokey Robinson takes over Locke's form because he knows he can manipulate Ben out of fear to do his biding.

 

[Mario Kart]

Well, after a day of reflection, I think it is safe to say that no one, not one person, predicted anything like what we saw the other night. That is some good story telling.

No resolution to this show will live up to the ride of this show. I am simply going to enjoy the ride, admire where I have been taken, hopefully have a satisfied conclusion, and reflect on the show later on. Also, many television shows of this length and this in depth do not have much replay value while LOST has plenty of replay value to find and connect the dots.

This show is going to rule on DVD with extras. Quite possibly take off in the writing world too.

 

[The Future Champs]

Just watched it, and I'd like to rant about:

Can you ####### believe they brought Juliet back just to kill her off again? WTF? I guess they had such a great time killing her at the end of last season they decided to do it again, and this time in Sawyer's arms. That was straight out of the soap opera playbook, and makes me very concerned about the final season.

 

[Sea Ropes]

Well, after a day of reflection, I think it is safe to say that no one, not one person, predicted anything like what we saw the other night. That is some good story telling.No resolution to this show will live up to the ride of this show. I am simply going to enjoy the ride, admire where I have been taken, hopefully have a satisfied conclusion, and reflect on the show later on. Also, many television shows of this length and this in depth do not have much replay value while LOST has plenty of replay value to find and connect the dots. This show is going to rule on DVD with extras. Quite possibly take off in the writing world too.

 

[prosopis]

Just watched it, and I'd like to rant about:Can you ####### believe they brought Juliet back just to kill her off again? WTF? I guess they had such a great time killing her at the end of last season they decided to do it again, and this time in Sawyer's arms. That was straight out of the soap opera playbook, and makes me very concerned about the final season.

I had a problem with it also but not the same problem. I am a fairly emotional fella and I was still in tears over her dying in the last years finale. They then bring her back so she can die in Sawyers arms My wife is looking for a therapist for me.

 

[SuperJohn96]

According to Lostpedia, Maggie Grace was supposed to appear in the episode but her schedule couldn't allow it so the scene was re-written to explain why Shannon wasn't on the plane. Based on that, it doesn't appear we should read anything into Shannon's non-appearance or consider it to have the same type of relevance the other differences in the new flight may have.

That's ######ed.They could have had a look-alike sleeping with her face turned away and Boone could have said that was Shannon.

 

[Sack-Religious]

Does anybody understand MIB's loophole? I don't get what the loophole was.

The loophole was that he couldn't kill Jacob himself, and he's been searching for a loophole for many years. He found it in Ben and Locke and began to set it up very early in the series I took one of Buckna's posts and combined it with one of mine as well as some additional thoughts and I hope this kind of explains things.Remember a couple seasons ago when Locke is in “Jacob’s Cabin” and he hears “help me”? I believe it was, as most of us have now assumed, MIB/Smokey talking to Locke and that line set in motion the events MIB needed to get his loophole, but it started all the way back in season one. Very early in Season One Locke is out hunting and he gets scanned by Smokey. This “scan” allows Smokey to read Locke and because of Locke’s devotion to the island (and being one of the few people to ever end up there who doesn't want to leave), he becomes the key player in MIB’s elaborate plan to kill Jacob, but there are other players he manipulates by manifesting himself as other people.Christian/Smokey leads Jack to the caves and water in season 1 which contributes to their survival long enough to escape the island. Yemi/Smokey kills Eko providing direction for Locke to go to the Others at the barracks.In a later episode after the Ajira plane crash, while Smokey/Locke, Ben and Richard are walking on their way to the foot statue, Smokey/Locke stops them and tells Richard he must go to Locke right now, give him the compass and tell him he has to die to save everyone. During the time jumps, the real Locke was shot by Ethan (in the past) and was injured after falling. Richard walks up with a torch (on the earlier advice of Smokey/Locke), attends to his wound(s), gives Locke a compass and tells him he has to die to save everyone.Christian/Smokey later does or says something to Claire which gets her to leave her group and leave Aaron with Kate, setting the wheels in motion for Kate's eventual return.Christian/Smokey tells Locke to move the island which would send Locke off the island to eventually die, but Locke screws up and lets Ben do it. Prior to this, Ben has a fall from grace from within The Others and Locke’s ascendance to a position of power as the leader of The Others. Later, Christian/Smokey explains to real Locke how to move the island and that he was the one who was supposed to do it initially. Real Locke leaves the island and dies at the hands of Ben and his corpse comes back to the island allowing MIB to manifest himself as Smokey/Locke. MIB/Smokey appears to Ben as Alex, his dead daughter and tells him to do whatever Locke tells him. We all know now that this Locke is actually Smokey/Locke so basically MIB/Smokey took two different forms and manipulated Ben (the apparent master-manipulator) into killing Jacob, and presumably wresting some sort of control of the island from him.

 

[The Dude]

Just watched it, and I'd like to rant about:Can you ####### believe they brought Juliet back just to kill her off again? WTF? I guess they had such a great time killing her at the end of last season they decided to do it again, and this time in Sawyer's arms. That was straight out of the soap opera playbook, and makes me very concerned about the final season.

This episode is going to need to be evaluated in context to the entire season. As a stand alone episode, it's fairly weak. It will likely never be a great episode even in reflection - but it may be an essential episode to season 6.

 

[Joseph]

Does anybody understand MIB's loophole? I don't get what the loophole was.

As I understand it the loophole was someone leaving the island through the donkey wheel and then returning. Smokey Robinson takes over Locke's form because he knows he can manipulate Ben out of fear to do his biding.

I think it had to be someone who would normally have access to jacob. I mean, otherwise he could have just taken over anyone, found Sayid, claimed that Jacob was the one who killed Nadia and had Sayid kill him.It was more complicated (I think) because they needed Richard to give them access to Jacob, and he wouldn't do that for just anyone. Locke being leader, leaving, dying, coming back gave him the special situation he needed for Richard to give him access to jacob, and Ben was a convenient "hired" assassin.

 

[The Dude]

Does anybody understand MIB's loophole? I don't get what the loophole was.

The loophole was that he couldn't kill Jacob himself, and he's been searching for a loophole for many years. He found it in Ben and Locke and began to set it up very early in the series I took one of Buckna's posts and combined it with one of mine as well as some additional thoughts and I hope this kind of explains things.Remember a couple seasons ago when Locke is in “Jacob’s Cabin” and he hears “help me”? I believe it was, as most of us have now assumed, MIB/Smokey talking to Locke and that line set in motion the events MIB needed to get his loophole, but it started all the way back in season one. Very early in Season One Locke is out hunting and he gets scanned by Smokey. This “scan” allows Smokey to read Locke and because of Locke’s devotion to the island (and being one of the few people to ever end up there who doesn't want to leave), he becomes the key player in MIB’s elaborate plan to kill Jacob, but there are other players he manipulates by manifesting himself as other people.Christian/Smokey leads Jack to the caves and water in season 1 which contributes to their survival long enough to escape the island. Yemi/Smokey kills Eko providing direction for Locke to go to the Others at the barracks.In a later episode after the Ajira plane crash, while Smokey/Locke, Ben and Richard are walking on their way to the foot statue, Smokey/Locke stops them and tells Richard he must go to Locke right now, give him the compass and tell him he has to die to save everyone. During the time jumps, the real Locke was shot by Ethan (in the past) and was injured after falling. Richard walks up with a torch (on the earlier advice of Smokey/Locke), attends to his wound(s), gives Locke a compass and tells him he has to die to save everyone.Christian/Smokey later does or says something to Claire which gets her to leave her group and leave Aaron with Kate, setting the wheels in motion for Kate's eventual return.Christian/Smokey tells Locke to move the island which would send Locke off the island to eventually die, but Locke screws up and lets Ben do it. Prior to this, Ben has a fall from grace from within The Others and Locke’s ascendance to a position of power as the leader of The Others. Later, Christian/Smokey explains to real Locke how to move the island and that he was the one who was supposed to do it initially. Real Locke leaves the island and dies at the hands of Ben and his corpse comes back to the island allowing MIB to manifest himself as Smokey/Locke. MIB/Smokey appears to Ben as Alex, his dead daughter and tells him to do whatever Locke tells him. We all know now that this Locke is actually Smokey/Locke so basically MIB/Smokey took two different forms and manipulated Ben (the apparent master-manipulator) into killing Jacob, and presumably wresting some sort of control of the island from him.

That's a well thought out post. Here's where maybe you could shine more light.....why could Ben kill Jacob and the Jacob group couldn't kill MIB? Is it the donkey wheel? And how would that even make sense?

 

[Sack-Religious]

So Satan/Norwood would be predestination?

Yup, go back to the conversation Jacob had with Norwood in the opening of last season's finale:

Jacob: I take it you're here 'cause of the ship. Norwood: I am. How did they find the Island? Jacob: You'll have to ask 'em when they get here. Norwood: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong, aren't you? Jacob: You are wrong. Norwood: Am I? They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same. Jacob: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.

Norwood believes that mankind is predestined to fight, destroy and corrupt. Jacob is continually telling people they have a choice; right up to when Ben was about to stab him. Jacob is of the view that if mankind continues to make the "good" choices, they will eventually prove him right.To me, this appears to be a bit of a cosmic "game" these two beings are playing. A little like Groundhog Day, if you will. Jacob believes that each step forward mankind makes (perhaps using the island as a microcosm of the world) is "progress" towards proving that mankind, if given the choice of free-will, will eventually prove that mankind is inherently "good."

 

[Sack-Religious]

That's a well thought out post. Here's where maybe you could shine more light.....why could Ben kill Jacob and the Jacob group couldn't kill MIB? Is it the donkey wheel? And how would that even make sense?

Thanks, a lot of credit goes to Buckna for helping crystallize my thought process, though.If Jacob and MIB are God/Christ-like and Lucifer type figures, it's not in Jacob's nature to kill. If he was alive when Bram and his other "bodyguards" came in, my guess would be that he would have instructed them not to shoot. We also know that MIB can take the form of Smokey, we're yet to see Jacob in any other form than his human form, perhaps that makes him more vulnerable and why he needs "bodyguards."There have been obvious religious overtones to the show almost from the beginning and this is another one.To this up even more, there's a definite Obi-Wan vibe with Jacob. MIB is so blinded by his quest for power and his hunger to kill his adversary, he doesn't understand that there are forces more powerful than he understands at play. As Obi-Wan said "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I don't think Norwood is mysterious enough to be the Man in Black. Should be Mr. Pickles or maybe Smoo.

 

[sho nuff]

Well, after a day of reflection, I think it is safe to say that no one, not one person, predicted anything like what we saw the other night. That is some good story telling.No resolution to this show will live up to the ride of this show. I am simply going to enjoy the ride, admire where I have been taken, hopefully have a satisfied conclusion, and reflect on the show later on. Also, many television shows of this length and this in depth do not have much replay value while LOST has plenty of replay value to find and connect the dots. This show is going to rule on DVD with extras. Quite possibly take off in the writing world too.

You and I don't agree on a lot...but I agree here.The show had me from the pilot...great character development...great story telling...love it.I had a joke the other night that flash sideways Tuesday's episode was really the finale and they were pulling a Seinfeld...instead of a backwards episode they are going to run a backwards season.

 

[SuperJohn96]

I have a feeling the series ends with Locke going to see Jack about getting a second opinion on his spine. And at that time they now have figured out why they know each other as both timelines have connected.

Nah. Writers tend to adapt their show to account for the most popular characters and actors who win awards. There are two characters that fit this mold - John Locke and Benjamin Linus. I have to think that, whatever the final resolution of the series will be, they will center around those two. We know the writers specifically recruited Terry O'Quinn, so he will be a big part of the series resolution. Michael Emerson has been winning awards for this show, so they will write his character into the final resolution too, even if it wasn't originally intended.Everyone else is ancillary.

The most obvious way to center the series finale on them is to play off the moment Linus murdered Locke. Maybe Locke eventually has to kill Linus or something.

There's a lot of backstory behind Jack Shepard, but the reality is these two characters now overshadow Jack, so he will probably get moved into the background.

Not a chance Jack gets moved into the background. None. I think the writers are full of BS a lot of the times they say they planned for how things are turning out, but one thing I know they planned on was having Jack be, if not the entire center of it all in the end, at least just as important as any other character. Supposedly the last scene has already been filmed, and Jack (as well as Walt, so I've heard) is in it.

He might not be as popular as Locke or Ben have become, but he was the core of the show up until last season and largely responsible for how good it was.

I'm sure you mean NOW they have those plans...but before the series even started, Michael Keaton was supposed to play Jack and be killed off in the first episode.I think they changed their minds, and then Michael Keaton backed out because he only wanted to do a one-off, not be a show regular.

What a dummy.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

Just when I started to think that the tail section people were needless filler (Bernard is the only one left), they pop up again in this episode.

If Jacob lived in the foot, where did Norwood live?

Ben went to the temple to be judged by Smokey Norwood.

Is that where Smokey Norwood lives?

If so, why are the remaining others there now?

As an aside, the hippy looking Other at the temple with the glasses was giving off a Dennis Hopper vibe imo.

 

[SuperJohn96]

Just watched it, and I'd like to rant about:Can you ####### believe they brought Juliet back just to kill her off again? WTF? I guess they had such a great time killing her at the end of last season they decided to do it again, and this time in Sawyer's arms. That was straight out of the soap opera playbook, and makes me very concerned about the final season.

Can you ####### believe that actress Elizabeth Mitchell left LOST to go star in "V" ?

 

[SuperJohn96]

Does anybody understand MIB's loophole? I don't get what the loophole was.

The loophole was that he couldn't kill Jacob himself, and he's been searching for a loophole for many years. He found it in Ben and Locke and began to set it up very early in the series I took one of Buckna's posts and combined it with one of mine as well as some additional thoughts and I hope this kind of explains things.Remember a couple seasons ago when Locke is in “Jacob’s Cabin” and he hears “help me”? I believe it was, as most of us have now assumed, MIB/Smokey talking to Locke and that line set in motion the events MIB needed to get his loophole, but it started all the way back in season one. Very early in Season One Locke is out hunting and he gets scanned by Smokey. This “scan” allows Smokey to read Locke and because of Locke’s devotion to the island (and being one of the few people to ever end up there who doesn't want to leave), he becomes the key player in MIB’s elaborate plan to kill Jacob, but there are other players he manipulates by manifesting himself as other people.Christian/Smokey leads Jack to the caves and water in season 1 which contributes to their survival long enough to escape the island. Yemi/Smokey kills Eko providing direction for Locke to go to the Others at the barracks.In a later episode after the Ajira plane crash, while Smokey/Locke, Ben and Richard are walking on their way to the foot statue, Smokey/Locke stops them and tells Richard he must go to Locke right now, give him the compass and tell him he has to die to save everyone. During the time jumps, the real Locke was shot by Ethan (in the past) and was injured after falling. Richard walks up with a torch (on the earlier advice of Smokey/Locke), attends to his wound(s), gives Locke a compass and tells him he has to die to save everyone.Christian/Smokey later does or says something to Claire which gets her to leave her group and leave Aaron with Kate, setting the wheels in motion for Kate's eventual return.Christian/Smokey tells Locke to move the island which would send Locke off the island to eventually die, but Locke screws up and lets Ben do it. Prior to this, Ben has a fall from grace from within The Others and Locke’s ascendance to a position of power as the leader of The Others. Later, Christian/Smokey explains to real Locke how to move the island and that he was the one who was supposed to do it initially. Real Locke leaves the island and dies at the hands of Ben and his corpse comes back to the island allowing MIB to manifest himself as Smokey/Locke. MIB/Smokey appears to Ben as Alex, his dead daughter and tells him to do whatever Locke tells him. We all know now that this Locke is actually Smokey/Locke so basically MIB/Smokey took two different forms and manipulated Ben (the apparent master-manipulator) into killing Jacob, and presumably wresting some sort of control of the island from him.

Great synopsis.I would only add that young Ben was seen talking to his "dead mother", so he was being manipulated/groomed since then.

 

[sho nuff]

Just when I started to think that the tail section people were needless filler (Bernard is the only one left), they pop up again in this episode.

If Jacob lived in the foot, where did Norwood live?

Ben went to the temple to be judged by Smokey Norwood.

Is that where Smokey Norwood lives?

If so, why are the remaining others there now?

As an aside, the hippy looking Other at the temple with the glasses was giving off a Dennis Hopper vibe imo.

But Ben just got to the little underground area to meet smokey...not all the way into the Temple.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

Just when I started to think that the tail section people were needless filler (Bernard is the only one left), they pop up again in this episode.

If Jacob lived in the foot, where did Norwood live?

Ben went to the temple to be judged by Smokey Norwood.

Is that where Smokey Norwood lives?

If so, why are the remaining others there now?

As an aside, the hippy looking Other at the temple with the glasses was giving off a Dennis Hopper vibe imo.

But Ben just got to the little underground area to meet smokey...not all the way into the Temple.

Which could add to the theory (not necessarily what I think, just bringing it back up) that the Temple is MIB's (not down with calling him Norwood) home, and he is trying to get back inside. He has been able to get close, going in a hole outside the wall, but he hasn't been able to get back inside the Temple.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

They called Smokey Norwood a "Security System" that protected the Temple at one point.

Interesting reversals.

"The List" seemed to be what was inside the Anhk.

 

[packersfan]

"The List" seemed to be what was inside the Anhk.

I agree. What we need to find out is why Jacob wanted those survivors in particular (it seems like Sawyer and Miles got added to the mix as add-ons). I need to go back Sack's post about Smokey. Now that we know the MIB is Smokey, examining how its manifested itself, to whom and why could help us figure out what his intentions may be.

 

[Sack-Religious]

Cuse and Lindelof were on Kimmel on Tuesday night, so I PVR'd it and watched it last night. I haven't seen anyone write anything on it, so I'll give a brief recap.

They generally were answering questions honestly.

Kimmel played a bit of a game of "coincidence or planned" with them, here's what I remember.

The title - LA X - Definitely planned

Jack and Rose's nervous flyer role reversal - Definitely planned

Airdate of Groundhog Day - DEFINITELY planned

Desmond disappearing on the plane after we see Charlie - Coincidence

Not seeing certain people on the plane: "Fate" - thought this response was very interesting.

There was some other banter and Kimmel asked a couple point-blank questions.

Is MIB possessing Locke's body? Stupid question IMO, since we saw Locke's corpse. They answered "no" but said we saw that "Locke" IS the Smoke Monster - People in the audience who hadn't watched the show had an audible reaction and Lindelof and Cuse both laugh, say "sorry" and "you came here, what did you expect?"

Then Kimmel asked "Is Jacob now in Sayid's body?" - They kind of dodged this saying "Something is in Sayid's body" Very interesting, IMO.

 

[stbugs]

Just watched it, and I'd like to rant about:Can you ####### believe they brought Juliet back just to kill her off again? WTF? I guess they had such a great time killing her at the end of last season they decided to do it again, and this time in Sawyer's arms. That was straight out of the soap opera playbook, and makes me very concerned about the final season.

Why did you say they brought her back? When did she die? She was hurt falling down the hole, henced she ended up dying, but if she died in the blast, then Jack et al would have been dead before. She only died once and that was in this week's episode. You are a little premature in thinking she died at the end of last season.

 

[stbugs]

Does anybody understand MIB's loophole? I don't get what the loophole was.

The loophole was that he couldn't kill Jacob himself, and he's been searching for a loophole for many years. He found it in Ben and Locke and began to set it up very early in the series I took one of Buckna's posts and combined it with one of mine as well as some additional thoughts and I hope this kind of explains things.Remember a couple seasons ago when Locke is in “Jacob’s Cabin” and he hears “help me”? I believe it was, as most of us have now assumed, MIB/Smokey talking to Locke and that line set in motion the events MIB needed to get his loophole, but it started all the way back in season one. Very early in Season One Locke is out hunting and he gets scanned by Smokey. This “scan” allows Smokey to read Locke and because of Locke’s devotion to the island (and being one of the few people to ever end up there who doesn't want to leave), he becomes the key player in MIB’s elaborate plan to kill Jacob, but there are other players he manipulates by manifesting himself as other people.Christian/Smokey leads Jack to the caves and water in season 1 which contributes to their survival long enough to escape the island. Yemi/Smokey kills Eko providing direction for Locke to go to the Others at the barracks.In a later episode after the Ajira plane crash, while Smokey/Locke, Ben and Richard are walking on their way to the foot statue, Smokey/Locke stops them and tells Richard he must go to Locke right now, give him the compass and tell him he has to die to save everyone. During the time jumps, the real Locke was shot by Ethan (in the past) and was injured after falling. Richard walks up with a torch (on the earlier advice of Smokey/Locke), attends to his wound(s), gives Locke a compass and tells him he has to die to save everyone.Christian/Smokey later does or says something to Claire which gets her to leave her group and leave Aaron with Kate, setting the wheels in motion for Kate's eventual return.Christian/Smokey tells Locke to move the island which would send Locke off the island to eventually die, but Locke screws up and lets Ben do it. Prior to this, Ben has a fall from grace from within The Others and Locke’s ascendance to a position of power as the leader of The Others. Later, Christian/Smokey explains to real Locke how to move the island and that he was the one who was supposed to do it initially. Real Locke leaves the island and dies at the hands of Ben and his corpse comes back to the island allowing MIB to manifest himself as Smokey/Locke. MIB/Smokey appears to Ben as Alex, his dead daughter and tells him to do whatever Locke tells him. We all know now that this Locke is actually Smokey/Locke so basically MIB/Smokey took two different forms and manipulated Ben (the apparent master-manipulator) into killing Jacob, and presumably wresting some sort of control of the island from him.

Great synopsis.I would only add that young Ben was seen talking to his "dead mother", so he was being manipulated/groomed since then.

:( Very good synopsis and I think while reading it quickly that I agree with everything. One question on Jacob's cabin with the "help me", didn't Ben notice that there was a break in the dust around it?Anyone in this thread that has been reading all the threads knows I was big on the whole apparitions/appearances as being smokey/island/whatever. The one thing I always wondered about was why sometimes it seemed so malevolent (Yemi's death) and other times so helpful like Jack's dad for the water. Sometimes it seemed at odds with itself and now that we have much more of the Jacob/MIB story line it makes so much more sense.

 

[Sack-Religious]

Does anybody understand MIB's loophole? I don't get what the loophole was.

The loophole was that he couldn't kill Jacob himself, and he's been searching for a loophole for many years. He found it in Ben and Locke and began to set it up very early in the series I took one of Buckna's posts and combined it with one of mine as well as some additional thoughts and I hope this kind of explains things.Remember a couple seasons ago when Locke is in “Jacob’s Cabin” and he hears “help me”? I believe it was, as most of us have now assumed, MIB/Smokey talking to Locke and that line set in motion the events MIB needed to get his loophole, but it started all the way back in season one. Very early in Season One Locke is out hunting and he gets scanned by Smokey. This “scan” allows Smokey to read Locke and because of Locke’s devotion to the island (and being one of the few people to ever end up there who doesn't want to leave), he becomes the key player in MIB’s elaborate plan to kill Jacob, but there are other players he manipulates by manifesting himself as other people.Christian/Smokey leads Jack to the caves and water in season 1 which contributes to their survival long enough to escape the island. Yemi/Smokey kills Eko providing direction for Locke to go to the Others at the barracks.In a later episode after the Ajira plane crash, while Smokey/Locke, Ben and Richard are walking on their way to the foot statue, Smokey/Locke stops them and tells Richard he must go to Locke right now, give him the compass and tell him he has to die to save everyone. During the time jumps, the real Locke was shot by Ethan (in the past) and was injured after falling. Richard walks up with a torch (on the earlier advice of Smokey/Locke), attends to his wound(s), gives Locke a compass and tells him he has to die to save everyone.Christian/Smokey later does or says something to Claire which gets her to leave her group and leave Aaron with Kate, setting the wheels in motion for Kate's eventual return.Christian/Smokey tells Locke to move the island which would send Locke off the island to eventually die, but Locke screws up and lets Ben do it. Prior to this, Ben has a fall from grace from within The Others and Locke’s ascendance to a position of power as the leader of The Others. Later, Christian/Smokey explains to real Locke how to move the island and that he was the one who was supposed to do it initially. Real Locke leaves the island and dies at the hands of Ben and his corpse comes back to the island allowing MIB to manifest himself as Smokey/Locke. MIB/Smokey appears to Ben as Alex, his dead daughter and tells him to do whatever Locke tells him. We all know now that this Locke is actually Smokey/Locke so basically MIB/Smokey took two different forms and manipulated Ben (the apparent master-manipulator) into killing Jacob, and presumably wresting some sort of control of the island from him.

Great synopsis.I would only add that young Ben was seen talking to his "dead mother", so he was being manipulated/groomed since then.

Thanks. Again, I couldn't have done it without Buckna's earlier post.My only problem with Ben's dead mother is that her body was never on the island. So far, it appears that MIB/Smokey can only manifest himself as a person who has either died on the island or arrived on the island as a corpse, so I'm not sure what to make of Ben's mother's appearance.

 

[Sack-Religious]

Another thing I found interesting from the episode was the section of dialogue between Locke and MIB after he said "Sorry you had to see me like that."

You could almost infer from that, that he doesn't have a choice when he becomes Smokey and that it's just a reaction to danger, or perhaps being summoned as Ben did in the Barracks when the Mercs were coming.

The other thing that got to me was Ben saying "What are you" MIB says "I'm not a what, I'm a who." or something to that effect.

 

[Tusken Raider]

So, by my count, there have now been 6 regulars from Deadwood now appear on Lost:

Kim Dickens: Joanie Stubbs / Cassidy Phillips (mother of Sawyer's kid)

Paula Malcomson: Trixie / Colleen Pickett (an Other, shot by Sun)

William Sanderson: E.B. Farnham / Oldman (an Other, interrogated Sayid)

Robin Wiegart: Calamity Jane / Rachael Carlson (Juliette's sister)

Titus Welliver: Silas Adams / Man in Black

John Hawkes: Sol Starr / Lennon (Temple translator)

Now, if Ian McShane comes down from a room in the top of the Temple & calls someone a c*cks*ck*r, I'll

No real connection, just thought it was kinda cool.

FWIW, both series began broadcasting in 2004. Hmmmm.

 

[stbugs]

"The List" seemed to be what was inside the Anhk.

I agree. What we need to find out is why Jacob wanted those survivors in particular (it seems like Sawyer and Miles got added to the mix as add-ons). I need to go back Sack's post about Smokey. Now that we know the MIB is Smokey, examining how its manifested itself, to whom and why could help us figure out what his intentions may be.

I think it is pretty clear that his intentions were solely to find a loophole to kill Jacob. Something tells me from the Black Rock scene a couple hundred years ago that he has been working on plans to kill him and finally got one.No way I want to look for it now, but I had compiled a bunch of ocurrences, but those were way back when people were still arguing that Jack's dad was actually part of the island group and not an apparition.For what it's worth, here is a from memory list of apparitions and where we know for sure who it was:Walt to Shannon - Got Shannon shot and killed. Messed with Sayid and got Anna on the outs. Did Sayid do anything because of this? I think his walkabout finding Danielle was because of his torturing Sawyer.Walt to Locke - Got him to liveChristian to Jack - Got him to get waterBoar to Sawyer - Helped him become a good guyHorse to Kate - Helped her forgive herself?Dave to Hurley - Many may disagree, but don't forget that Hurley seems important to Jacob now and Dave came close to making Hurley kill himself until Libby stopped him. I think this was smokey trying to get rid of HurleyVision of Shannon's death - This was weird because it was a dream, but it did get Boone to get back with Locke to get into the hatchVision of the airplane and Boone's death - Got Locke to the airplaneLibby to Michael - Got him back to the island to blow up Widmore's shiptCharlie to Hurley - Got him back to the islandAlex to Ben - Smokey got him to follow himselfWalt computer typing to Michael - Got him to go after Walt and in the end free Ben by killing Anna and LibbyOK, I need help with any more. I know there are more, but I can't remember.Also, is it out of the question to think that Jacob has done any manifestations? I would think he could, but not entirely sure if he would given that he is big on choices, etc. Some of the apparitions were just plain good and seemed to be more about helping people let go (Sawyer's boar and Kate's horse).

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

If manipulating Locke was all part of MIB's plan to kill Jacob etc., why did Jacob essentially save Locke? Jacob knew of the plan and wanted it to play out so that he could test the choices of the people on the list (those that he went to visit off-island and touched - Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Locke, Sayid, and the merc chick).

 

[stbugs]

So, by my count, there have now been 6 regulars from Deadwood now appear on Lost:

Kim Dickens: Joanie Stubbs / Cassidy Phillips (mother of Sawyer's kid)

Paula Malcomson: Trixie / Colleen Pickett (an Other, shot by Sun)

William Sanderson: E.B. Farnham / Oldman (an Other, interrogated Sayid)

Robin Wiegart: Calamity Jane / Rachael Carlson (Juliette's sister)

Titus Welliver: Silas Adams / Man in Black

John Hawkes: Sol Starr / Lennon (Temple translator)

Now, if Ian McShane comes down from a room in the top of the Temple & calls someone a c*cks*ck*r, I'll

No real connection, just thought it was kinda cool.

FWIW, both series began broadcasting in 2004. Hmmmm.

They seem to use lots of overlaps. I also noticed that the cabbie that took Kate at the airport was the puppet master guy in Heroes. I am still waiting for Sark from Alias to come on Lost. He has now been on Alias, Heroes and 24.

 

[Sack-Religious]

Also, is it out of the question to think that Jacob has done any manifestations? I would think he could, but not entirely sure if he would given that he is big on choices, etc. Some of the apparitions were just plain good and seemed to be more about helping people let go (Sawyer's boar and Kate's horse).

With the exception of Locke seeing Horace chopping wood (which seemed a little wonky, like a record skipping type of thing), those are pretty much all I can remember. The problem with some of them and our theory of dead people being used to manifest Smokey is that not everyone on there was dead, or on the island in the case of Dave, the horse, and Walt.I've been wondering about Jacob also manifesting himself as something else. We haven't seen it, but just because we haven't seen it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.I don't think EVERYTHING that MIB/Smokey does is evil though. If, in fact, he was doing all the above - "helping" someone may have had an ancillary benefit to his overall plan to use Ben and Locke as his loophole to kill Jacob. The end justifies the means and all that good stuff.

 

[stbugs]

If manipulating Locke was all part of MIB's plan to kill Jacob etc., why did Jacob essentially save Locke? Jacob knew of the plan and wanted it to play out so that he could test the choices of the people on the list (those that he went to visit off-island and touched - Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Locke, Sayid, and the merc chick).

When did Jacob save Locke?

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

If manipulating Locke was all part of MIB's plan to kill Jacob etc., why did Jacob essentially save Locke? Jacob knew of the plan and wanted it to play out so that he could test the choices of the people on the list (those that he went to visit off-island and touched - Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Locke, Sayid, and the merc chick).

When did Jacob save Locke?

When Locke was thrown from a 10+ story window, Jacob walks over to him and touches him. He may or may not have given him life. Then he says "i'm sorry this had to happen to you" or something like that. I believe even in the "pop up" episode last week it even mentions that Jacob may have resurrected Locke, but it wasnt clear.

 

[Bill Brasky]

Also, is it out of the question to think that Jacob has done any manifestations? I would think he could, but not entirely sure if he would given that he is big on choices, etc. Some of the apparitions were just plain good and seemed to be more about helping people let go (Sawyer's boar and Kate's horse).

With the exception of Locke seeing Horace chopping wood (which seemed a little wonky, like a record skipping type of thing), those are pretty much all I can remember. The problem with some of them and our theory of dead people being used to manifest Smokey is that not everyone on there was dead, or on the island in the case of Dave, the horse, and Walt.I've been wondering about Jacob also manifesting himself as something else. We haven't seen it, but just because we haven't seen it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.I don't think EVERYTHING that MIB/Smokey does is evil though. If, in fact, he was doing all the above - "helping" someone may have had an ancillary benefit to his overall plan to use Ben and Locke as his loophole to kill Jacob. The end justifies the means and all that good stuff.

I don't think Dave applies. Hurley was seeing him long before the island due to his crazies. I think that was just his own personal hallucination.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Also, is it out of the question to think that Jacob has done any manifestations? I would think he could, but not entirely sure if he would given that he is big on choices, etc. Some of the apparitions were just plain good and seemed to be more about helping people let go (Sawyer's boar and Kate's horse).

With the exception of Locke seeing Horace chopping wood (which seemed a little wonky, like a record skipping type of thing), those are pretty much all I can remember. The problem with some of them and our theory of dead people being used to manifest Smokey is that not everyone on there was dead, or on the island in the case of Dave, the horse, and Walt.I've been wondering about Jacob also manifesting himself as something else. We haven't seen it, but just because we haven't seen it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.I don't think EVERYTHING that MIB/Smokey does is evil though. If, in fact, he was doing all the above - "helping" someone may have had an ancillary benefit to his overall plan to use Ben and Locke as his loophole to kill Jacob. The end justifies the means and all that good stuff.

I don't think Dave applies. Hurley was seeing him long before the island due to his crazies. I think that was just his own personal hallucination.

Right. Hurley sees dead people. Miles talks to dead people. Jack saw his dad off-island (seems like MIB cant go off island). So some things arent MIB more likely than not.

 

[Joseph]

When the bodyguards were looking for the man in black, they saw a beetle behind the column:

with the egyptian theme: http://www.egyptian-scarabs.co.uk/

Scarab Beetles in Ancient EgyptEgyptian Scarab Beetle

By far the most important amulet in ancient Egypt was the scarab, symbolically as sacred to the Egyptians as the cross is to Christians.

Hamr Stone Scarab - dung beetles lay eggs in a pellet which they roll along and the Egyptians regarded this action as an image of the sun and its course through the heavens, rolled by a gigantic beetle. Scarabs are associated with the Egyptian god, Khepri. It was Khepri that pushed the sun across the sky. The scarab beetle became an ancient Egyptian symbol for rebirth, the ability to be reborn. Each day the sun disappeared, always to rise again and be reborn the following day.

The god Khepri, which literally means "He who is Coming into Being", was a creator god and a solar deity. He was represented as a scarab or dung beetle, or as a man with a beetle head. The scarab beetle was observed to roll it's eggs in a ball of dung along the ground, and the ball was identified with the sun. The baby beetles were seen to emerge from the primeval mound and so dung beetles were thought capable of spontaneous creation.

Scarabs were worn as jewellery and amulets in ancient Egypt. The Heart Scarab, which had hieroglyphic inscriptions on the back, was often buried with the dead to ensure the rebirth of the deceased in the afterlife. They were placed over the heart of the deceased to keep it from confessing sins during its interrogation in the "Weighing of the Heart" ceremony.

hmm... If the man in black is the representation of Khepri, maybe Jacob is the rival of Khepri?

 

[SuperJohn96]

I, for one, welcomed the return of Artz.

 

[SuperJohn96]

When the bodyguards were looking for the man in black, they saw a beetle behind the column:

with the egyptian theme: http://www.egyptian-scarabs.co.uk/

Scarab Beetles in Ancient EgyptEgyptian Scarab Beetle

By far the most important amulet in ancient Egypt was the scarab, symbolically as sacred to the Egyptians as the cross is to Christians.

Hamr Stone Scarab - dung beetles lay eggs in a pellet which they roll along and the Egyptians regarded this action as an image of the sun and its course through the heavens, rolled by a gigantic beetle. Scarabs are associated with the Egyptian god, Khepri. It was Khepri that pushed the sun across the sky. The scarab beetle became an ancient Egyptian symbol for rebirth, the ability to be reborn. Each day the sun disappeared, always to rise again and be reborn the following day.

The god Khepri, which literally means "He who is Coming into Being", was a creator god and a solar deity. He was represented as a scarab or dung beetle, or as a man with a beetle head. The scarab beetle was observed to roll it's eggs in a ball of dung along the ground, and the ball was identified with the sun. The baby beetles were seen to emerge from the primeval mound and so dung beetles were thought capable of spontaneous creation.

Scarabs were worn as jewellery and amulets in ancient Egypt. The Heart Scarab, which had hieroglyphic inscriptions on the back, was often buried with the dead to ensure the rebirth of the deceased in the afterlife. They were placed over the heart of the deceased to keep it from confessing sins during its interrogation in the "Weighing of the Heart" ceremony.

hmm... If the man in black is the representation of Khepri, maybe Jacob is the rival of Khepri?

Is this the first mention of the beetle in this thread? I was wondering what the hell that was when Locke vanished.

 

[sho nuff]

I, for one, welcomed the return of Artz.

Dude, you got a little Artz on you.One thing I still want to know more about is the "brainwashing" that was happening to Carl and what was going on. The whole "only fools are enslaved by time and space" or something to that effect and other things going on in there.I hope this gets touched on at some point.

 

[Joseph]

When the bodyguards were looking for the man in black, they saw a beetle behind the column:

with the egyptian theme: http://www.egyptian-scarabs.co.uk/

Scarab Beetles in Ancient EgyptEgyptian Scarab Beetle

By far the most important amulet in ancient Egypt was the scarab, symbolically as sacred to the Egyptians as the cross is to Christians.

Hamr Stone Scarab - dung beetles lay eggs in a pellet which they roll along and the Egyptians regarded this action as an image of the sun and its course through the heavens, rolled by a gigantic beetle. Scarabs are associated with the Egyptian god, Khepri. It was Khepri that pushed the sun across the sky. The scarab beetle became an ancient Egyptian symbol for rebirth, the ability to be reborn. Each day the sun disappeared, always to rise again and be reborn the following day.

The god Khepri, which literally means "He who is Coming into Being", was a creator god and a solar deity. He was represented as a scarab or dung beetle, or as a man with a beetle head. The scarab beetle was observed to roll it's eggs in a ball of dung along the ground, and the ball was identified with the sun. The baby beetles were seen to emerge from the primeval mound and so dung beetles were thought capable of spontaneous creation.

Scarabs were worn as jewellery and amulets in ancient Egypt. The Heart Scarab, which had hieroglyphic inscriptions on the back, was often buried with the dead to ensure the rebirth of the deceased in the afterlife. They were placed over the heart of the deceased to keep it from confessing sins during its interrogation in the "Weighing of the Heart" ceremony.

hmm... If the man in black is the representation of Khepri, maybe Jacob is the rival of Khepri?

Is this the first mention of the beetle in this thread? I was wondering what the hell that was when Locke vanished.

I think it might be...Body guards came in, Locke retreated behind the pillar, they circled from either side, and he was gone. One of the guards picked up the beetle looking thing and then smokey came in and cleaned house.

Another thing I don't think was mentioned was Cuse and Lindelhoff referring to the underwater foot as a means of figuring out when the island sank...

Does this mean there's a difference between the underwater foot and the broken foot they canoed past, or just that we know the island sank after the statue came down?

 

[stbugs]

Also, is it out of the question to think that Jacob has done any manifestations? I would think he could, but not entirely sure if he would given that he is big on choices, etc. Some of the apparitions were just plain good and seemed to be more about helping people let go (Sawyer's boar and Kate's horse).

With the exception of Locke seeing Horace chopping wood (which seemed a little wonky, like a record skipping type of thing), those are pretty much all I can remember. The problem with some of them and our theory of dead people being used to manifest Smokey is that not everyone on there was dead, or on the island in the case of Dave, the horse, and Walt.I've been wondering about Jacob also manifesting himself as something else. We haven't seen it, but just because we haven't seen it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.I don't think EVERYTHING that MIB/Smokey does is evil though. If, in fact, he was doing all the above - "helping" someone may have had an ancillary benefit to his overall plan to use Ben and Locke as his loophole to kill Jacob. The end justifies the means and all that good stuff.

I don't think Dave applies. Hurley was seeing him long before the island due to his crazies. I think that was just his own personal hallucination.

Right. Hurley sees dead people. Miles talks to dead people. Jack saw his dad off-island (seems like MIB cant go off island). So some things arent MIB more likely than not.

We'll just have to disagree for now. I understand the Miles thing, but how do we know that Hurley seeing dead people isn't part of the whole MIB/Jacob process. Miles talked to dead people his whole life. Hurly only saw dead people after getting off the island and the dead people got him back to the island. Those are completely different scenarios. After Charlie is dead, why get Hurley back to the island?Also, Dave played basketball and was Hurley's buddy when he was committed. Dave tried to get Hurley to jump off a cliff on the island and if MIB was Dave, he could have easily gotten the image of Dave since we know he reads minds. Hurley seems more important now to Jacob, so MIB trying to get Hurley to jump off a cliff fits more than Hurley conjuring him up to jump off the cliff.One last thing, do we know MIB can't project off the island? I thought he said he wanted to go home and as mentioned above, home may be the temple. Also, couldn't it have been Jacob trying to get Jack back since Jacob tried to get Hurley back and both were on the list that Hurley had?IMHO, I tend to think that any type of vision/dream/apparation is either driven by MIB or Jacob rather than being some other explanation since we have seen MIB do it already.

 

[stbugs]

If manipulating Locke was all part of MIB's plan to kill Jacob etc., why did Jacob essentially save Locke? Jacob knew of the plan and wanted it to play out so that he could test the choices of the people on the list (those that he went to visit off-island and touched - Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Locke, Sayid, and the merc chick).

When did Jacob save Locke?

When Locke was thrown from a 10+ story window, Jacob walks over to him and touches him. He may or may not have given him life. Then he says "i'm sorry this had to happen to you" or something like that. I believe even in the "pop up" episode last week it even mentions that Jacob may have resurrected Locke, but it wasnt clear.

Thanks, I forgot about that.

 

[Sack-Religious]

When the bodyguards were looking for the man in black, they saw a beetle behind the column:

with the egyptian theme: http://www.egyptian-scarabs.co.uk/

Scarab Beetles in Ancient EgyptEgyptian Scarab Beetle

By far the most important amulet in ancient Egypt was the scarab, symbolically as sacred to the Egyptians as the cross is to Christians.

Hamr Stone Scarab - dung beetles lay eggs in a pellet which they roll along and the Egyptians regarded this action as an image of the sun and its course through the heavens, rolled by a gigantic beetle. Scarabs are associated with the Egyptian god, Khepri. It was Khepri that pushed the sun across the sky. The scarab beetle became an ancient Egyptian symbol for rebirth, the ability to be reborn. Each day the sun disappeared, always to rise again and be reborn the following day.

The god Khepri, which literally means "He who is Coming into Being", was a creator god and a solar deity. He was represented as a scarab or dung beetle, or as a man with a beetle head. The scarab beetle was observed to roll it's eggs in a ball of dung along the ground, and the ball was identified with the sun. The baby beetles were seen to emerge from the primeval mound and so dung beetles were thought capable of spontaneous creation.

Scarabs were worn as jewellery and amulets in ancient Egypt. The Heart Scarab, which had hieroglyphic inscriptions on the back, was often buried with the dead to ensure the rebirth of the deceased in the afterlife. They were placed over the heart of the deceased to keep it from confessing sins during its interrogation in the "Weighing of the Heart" ceremony.

hmm... If the man in black is the representation of Khepri, maybe Jacob is the rival of Khepri?

Is this the first mention of the beetle in this thread? I was wondering what the hell that was when Locke vanished.

I think it might be...Body guards came in, Locke retreated behind the pillar, they circled from either side, and he was gone. One of the guards picked up the beetle looking thing and then smokey came in and cleaned house.

Another thing I don't think was mentioned was Cuse and Lindelhoff referring to the underwater foot as a means of figuring out when the island sank...

Does this mean there's a difference between the underwater foot and the broken foot they canoed past, or just that we know the island sank after the statue came down?

I don't think it was a beetle. I think it was the bullet that he thought hit MIB. From my understanding of that Cuse/Lindelof thing was that the foot was there, but before we saw the foot we saw The Barracks/New Otherton, so we know that the island "sunk" sometime after the DHARMA Initiative was on the island, and we should be using that as the timeframe we're working with.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

so was the whole Ben v. Widmore thing filler or was there Jacob/Smokey Norwood affiliations pushing it?

 

[Bill Brasky]

When the bodyguards were looking for the man in black, they saw a beetle behind the column:

with the egyptian theme: http://www.egyptian-scarabs.co.uk/

Scarab Beetles in Ancient EgyptEgyptian Scarab Beetle

By far the most important amulet in ancient Egypt was the scarab, symbolically as sacred to the Egyptians as the cross is to Christians.

Hamr Stone Scarab - dung beetles lay eggs in a pellet which they roll along and the Egyptians regarded this action as an image of the sun and its course through the heavens, rolled by a gigantic beetle. Scarabs are associated with the Egyptian god, Khepri. It was Khepri that pushed the sun across the sky. The scarab beetle became an ancient Egyptian symbol for rebirth, the ability to be reborn. Each day the sun disappeared, always to rise again and be reborn the following day.

The god Khepri, which literally means "He who is Coming into Being", was a creator god and a solar deity. He was represented as a scarab or dung beetle, or as a man with a beetle head. The scarab beetle was observed to roll it's eggs in a ball of dung along the ground, and the ball was identified with the sun. The baby beetles were seen to emerge from the primeval mound and so dung beetles were thought capable of spontaneous creation.

Scarabs were worn as jewellery and amulets in ancient Egypt. The Heart Scarab, which had hieroglyphic inscriptions on the back, was often buried with the dead to ensure the rebirth of the deceased in the afterlife. They were placed over the heart of the deceased to keep it from confessing sins during its interrogation in the "Weighing of the Heart" ceremony.

hmm... If the man in black is the representation of Khepri, maybe Jacob is the rival of Khepri?

Is this the first mention of the beetle in this thread? I was wondering what the hell that was when Locke vanished.

I think it might be...Body guards came in, Locke retreated behind the pillar, they circled from either side, and he was gone. One of the guards picked up the beetle looking thing and then smokey came in and cleaned house.

Another thing I don't think was mentioned was Cuse and Lindelhoff referring to the underwater foot as a means of figuring out when the island sank...

Does this mean there's a difference between the underwater foot and the broken foot they canoed past, or just that we know the island sank after the statue came down?

I don't think it was a beetle. I think it was the bullet that he thought his MIB. From my understanding of that Cuse/Lindelof thing was that the foot was there, but before we saw the foot we saw The Barracks/New Otherton, so we know that the island "sunk" sometime after the DHARMA Initiative was on the island, and we should be using that as the timeframe we're working with.

Looked like a bullet to me too. It was bent like it had hit a metal plate.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Also, is it out of the question to think that Jacob has done any manifestations? I would think he could, but not entirely sure if he would given that he is big on choices, etc. Some of the apparitions were just plain good and seemed to be more about helping people let go (Sawyer's boar and Kate's horse).

With the exception of Locke seeing Horace chopping wood (which seemed a little wonky, like a record skipping type of thing), those are pretty much all I can remember. The problem with some of them and our theory of dead people being used to manifest Smokey is that not everyone on there was dead, or on the island in the case of Dave, the horse, and Walt.I've been wondering about Jacob also manifesting himself as something else. We haven't seen it, but just because we haven't seen it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.I don't think EVERYTHING that MIB/Smokey does is evil though. If, in fact, he was doing all the above - "helping" someone may have had an ancillary benefit to his overall plan to use Ben and Locke as his loophole to kill Jacob. The end justifies the means and all that good stuff.

I don't think Dave applies. Hurley was seeing him long before the island due to his crazies. I think that was just his own personal hallucination.

Right. Hurley sees dead people. Miles talks to dead people. Jack saw his dad off-island (seems like MIB cant go off island). So some things arent MIB more likely than not.

We'll just have to disagree for now. I understand the Miles thing, but how do we know that Hurley seeing dead people isn't part of the whole MIB/Jacob process. Miles talked to dead people his whole life. Hurly only saw dead people after getting off the island and the dead people got him back to the island. Those are completely different scenarios. After Charlie is dead, why get Hurley back to the island?Also, Dave played basketball and was Hurley's buddy when he was committed. Dave tried to get Hurley to jump off a cliff on the island and if MIB was Dave, he could have easily gotten the image of Dave since we know he reads minds. Hurley seems more important now to Jacob, so MIB trying to get Hurley to jump off a cliff fits more than Hurley conjuring him up to jump off the cliff.One last thing, do we know MIB can't project off the island? I thought he said he wanted to go home and as mentioned above, home may be the temple. Also, couldn't it have been Jacob trying to get Jack back since Jacob tried to get Hurley back and both were on the list that Hurley had?IMHO, I tend to think that any type of vision/dream/apparation is either driven by MIB or Jacob rather than being some other explanation since we have seen MIB do it already.

Why was Hurley in the insane asylum prior to coming to the island?

 

[SuperJohn96]

When the bodyguards were looking for the man in black, they saw a beetle behind the column:

with the egyptian theme: http://www.egyptian-scarabs.co.uk/

Scarab Beetles in Ancient EgyptEgyptian Scarab Beetle

By far the most important amulet in ancient Egypt was the scarab, symbolically as sacred to the Egyptians as the cross is to Christians.

Hamr Stone Scarab - dung beetles lay eggs in a pellet which they roll along and the Egyptians regarded this action as an image of the sun and its course through the heavens, rolled by a gigantic beetle. Scarabs are associated with the Egyptian god, Khepri. It was Khepri that pushed the sun across the sky. The scarab beetle became an ancient Egyptian symbol for rebirth, the ability to be reborn. Each day the sun disappeared, always to rise again and be reborn the following day.

The god Khepri, which literally means "He who is Coming into Being", was a creator god and a solar deity. He was represented as a scarab or dung beetle, or as a man with a beetle head. The scarab beetle was observed to roll it's eggs in a ball of dung along the ground, and the ball was identified with the sun. The baby beetles were seen to emerge from the primeval mound and so dung beetles were thought capable of spontaneous creation.

Scarabs were worn as jewellery and amulets in ancient Egypt. The Heart Scarab, which had hieroglyphic inscriptions on the back, was often buried with the dead to ensure the rebirth of the deceased in the afterlife. They were placed over the heart of the deceased to keep it from confessing sins during its interrogation in the "Weighing of the Heart" ceremony.

hmm... If the man in black is the representation of Khepri, maybe Jacob is the rival of Khepri?

I don't know about rival, but I guess Khepri is one form of Ra.

Daily Journey - Ra takes three manifestations

- 1- Khepri

Every day at sunrise Ra emerged from a blue lotus flower, only to immediately transform into Khepri

Khepri is the morning manifestation of Ra represented by the sacred scarab

Since the scarab beetle lays its eggs in dung, from which they emerge having been born, the ancient Egyptians believed that scarab beetles were created from dead matter.

Beetles pushed the ball into the sun so that the sun's heat hatched the egg, giving life. Because of this, they associated the Khepri with rebirth and resurrection

Khepri was principally depicted as a whole scarab beetle, or a human male with a scarab as a head The boat used by Khepri in the morning is called Matet, which meant becoming stronger

- 2- Horakhty (Horus the Elder)

Around noon, when the sun is at its full power, Ra becomes Horakhty, or "Horus of the two horizons"

This was the most popular form of Ra, patron of the Pharaoh

The Pharaohs were mortal manifestations of Horakhty, who appointed them as "shepherds of the Land"

In this manifestation Ra-Horakhty was the husband of Hathor and Isis

The Four Sons of Horus the Elder were grouped together and generally said to be born of Isis

He was depicted as a falcon or a falcon-headed man wearing the solar disk and the Double Crown and the Uraeus

Top of Page

His face was visualized as the face of the sun

He carries the two scepters of kingship, the Crook and Flail, thus identifying Horakhty as the ruling king in the sky and signifying that the Pharaoh embodies him on earth

- 3- Atum

At sunset, when the sun is said to be weak and growing old, Ra becomes Atum, who symbolized the setting sun and its journey through the underworld to its rising in the east.

Atum's name is derived from the word 'tem' which means to complete or finish. Thus he has been interpreted as being the 'complete one' and also the finisher of the day

From midday on Atum travels in the Semktet boat, which means growing weaker.

The Sky goddess Nut Swallows Atum at night and gives birth to it again at dawn, every day

Each night Apep attempted to disrupt the passage of the solar barque of Atum, and attacked him in the Tenth region of the Night

Atum always wins this battle and emerges from the eastern horizon as Khepri

Atum was depicted in art as a man wearing the Double Crown of Upper and Lower Egypt

http://www.aldokkan.com/religion/ra.htm