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== OFFICIAL OAKLAND RAIDERS 2018 thread == (2 Viewers)

Do you all think Nelson or Martavis could become good number 1 options now without Cooper there?
No.

I mean, they get bumped in terms of targets and opportunities for sure, and both have different skill sets (Nelson as the aging possession receiver, Martavis as the young burner), but neither have impressed so far, and wouldn't rely on one of them for consistent production.

I think Cook, the TE, is the guy who benefits the most.

 
When the dust settles, all Reggie's players will be gone (and maybe Reggie himself) by next season except for Derek Carr. I hope Gruden learned from his previous drafts because, honestly I'm worried. Who was his best draft pick? Barrett Ruud? 

 
I expect Melvin to be traded away by the trade deadline as well.

Basically benched, and outwardly complaining about his role on the team.

We'll have nothing but practice squad players on our roster by week 12.

 
I expect Melvin to be traded away by the trade deadline as well.

Basically benched, and outwardly complaining about his role on the team.

We'll have nothing but practice squad players on our roster by week 12.
I believe Gruden has already traded our practice squad to Tampa Bay for a plate of Hooters fried pickles and a Corona.

Given all the about faces we've seen from Gruden, he was also absolutely lying about going old school and kicking it back to the 90s-- come October 30th, our entire squad (save for Carr's mascara applicator) will be replaced by state-of-the art holographic projections in the same deep lime hue as NBC's Green Zone.

 
When the dust settles, all Reggie's players will be gone (and maybe Reggie himself) by next season except for Derek Carr. I hope Gruden learned from his previous drafts because, honestly I'm worried. Who was his best draft pick? Barrett Ruud? 
I have seen nothing that suggests Reggie and Gruden are not on the same page and working together. The first class of draft with them working together looks very promising. 

 
I have seen nothing that suggests Reggie and Gruden are not on the same page and working together. The first class of draft with them working together looks very promising. 
This last trade fleecing DAL should have brought them that much closer together - in celebration, if nothing else.

I hope we keep Reggie for another year. Been some ups and downs, but I'd like to see what he and Gruden can do with their options in this coming draft.

 
I have seen nothing that suggests Reggie and Gruden are not on the same page and working together. The first class of draft with them working together looks very promising. 
Except for Gruden systematically getting rid of all of Reggie's high profile draft picks. Other than that Reggie's prospects look as solid as molasses in Arizona in July.

Reggie's gone. Accept it and move on.

 
This last trade fleecing DAL should have brought them that much closer together - in celebration, if nothing else.

I hope we keep Reggie for another year. Been some ups and downs, but I'd like to see what he and Gruden can do with their options in this coming draft.
We now have what looks like a top 5 pick and two top 15 picks for next years draft. We also now suddenly have a good amount of cap room to make some FA moves as well. I never seen Reggie as a ego guy. I think he is very willing to work with Gruden to remake the team into a team that Gruden wants with players that he wants. I think people over play the fact that these players were "Reggies guys".... ALL the players other than rookies were "Reggies guys". This move is night and day different from Mack. Mack had lived up and then some to his name. Cooper has certainly shown the flashes of what his talent says he can be but he also never showed the demand of a true star #1 and the drops were maddening. Getting a 1 for him and not have to worry about his contract on top of the $13 he will get paid? Yea, we fleeced DAL there. Will Reggie leave? I dunno for sure but almost all of what I hear about him leaving is people taking guesses that all these moves are all Gruden and Reggie is not happy about it. I think that is silly. 

 
Chicago looks like a potential playoff team btw.

Dallas plays in the possibly most wide open/mediocre division in the league (except for maybe the NFC North).

Those mid round picks could easily become mid/late 20s picks.

 
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Chicago looks like a potential playoff team btw.

Dallas plays in the possibly most wide open/mediocre division in the league (except for maybe the NFC North).

Those mid round picks could easily become mid/late 20s picks.
Potential sure..... if their QB can throw straight. As I said when the deal went down. It isn't about how Mack plays. It is all about how Trubisky plays. He is hit and miss. I don't think they will make the playoffs myself. 

 
The Twitter universe wants us to believe that Conley is next.  Actually Conley's own twitter account makes it seem like he is ready to go.

The falling of Conley in 2018 will remain one of those unsolved mysteries for me.  I can only guess that something he did, or didn't do, on the field or in meetings led to the handling of him.  I mean, something had to have occurred to get him pushed out of game plans and future plans for the Raiders.  I had more hopes for him to be a long time member of the Raiders org.

 
The Twitter universe wants us to believe that Conley is next.  Actually Conley's own twitter account makes it seem like he is ready to go.

The falling of Conley in 2018 will remain one of those unsolved mysteries for me.  I can only guess that something he did, or didn't do, on the field or in meetings led to the handling of him.  I mean, something had to have occurred to get him pushed out of game plans and future plans for the Raiders.  I had more hopes for him to be a long time member of the Raiders org.
He has graded out very poorly when he has played.

 
I swear I had a post saying that I would be happy with trading Cooper for a 1st if we could get it and then someone even replied saying no one would give up a 1st for him.... apparently I dreamed that exchange because I can not find it. 

So, I posted this in the Amari Cooper thread. It pretty is my thinking on this in a concise way of putting it: 

The way he has been playing.... is he worth $13 million and passing on a 1st round pick? I say no. Not even close. The Mack trade is/was hard to defend and it took effort to find the reasoning. On this one, we traded a young kid who never seemed to fulfill his promise even on some decent stat numbers in the past. I think we traded his potential and name for a 1st because we sure did not trade his production for a 1st. 
About 9 pages got purged from this thread and that post was probably one of them. ?

Re: Cooper. I thought he was one of the most pro-ready receivers to come into the league in years. I likened him to Marvin Harrison. Somebody on the board compared him to Sterling Sharpe. After giving it some thought, I felt that was a more apt comparison.

Hard to figure what's happened to him last 1.5 years. I wouldn't call him soft at all but he seems to lack a real passion for--and love of--football. I still think he can carve out a nice career but he's not worth $13 million. The Raiders got a 1 from him from about the only franchise in the league that would be, uh, unwise enough to offer that considering what Cooper has produced lately.

This was a good deal.

 
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I have seen nothing that suggests Reggie and Gruden are not on the same page and working together. The first class of draft with them working together looks very promising. 
Boy, I've seen em on different pages for ahwile now. Recently, obviously, Gruden is getting rid of all of Reggie's guys. And backwhen the Mack trade went down, Gruden was quoted saying something to the effect that he didn't know a Raiders second was in the deal and he wasn't involved in it.

Gruden has saved Davis a boatload by trading Mack and Cooper. I'm sure it won't be hard to convince Davis he doesn't really need a GM after McKenzie's contract runs out, thereby saving himself more cash.

 
The Twitter universe wants us to believe that Conley is next.  Actually Conley's own twitter account makes it seem like he is ready to go.

The falling of Conley in 2018 will remain one of those unsolved mysteries for me.  I can only guess that something he did, or didn't do, on the field or in meetings led to the handling of him.  I mean, something had to have occurred to get him pushed out of game plans and future plans for the Raiders.  I had more hopes for him to be a long time member of the Raiders org.
His twitter account makes it clear he's not a Rhodes scholar. I'm wondering if he doesn't have it between the ears to be an NFL player.

 
Wonder if Bosa leaving school (Oct. 16) encouraged Gruden to REALLY start the rebuild process and increase the odds of getting the first pick. He thinks to himself, "If I can get this Bosa guy and he's a player, maybe everybody will shut up about Mack finally." ?

I mean, good grief, how is this team going to score points now? How are they gonna stop teams from scoring? Quick answers: they're not and they're not.

Carr has been mediocre to bad thus far. How's he gonna be now without Cooper? Granted, Cooper wasn't getting much in way of results but Ds still had to account for him. Now who is Carr going to throw to, especially with Lynch out for a month? Yikes!

I revised their win total from 11 to 6 with the Mack trade. I'm seeing four games they can MAYBE win the rest of the way--Colts, 9ers, Chargers, Broncos. I'll guess they win half those.

3-13.

 
Wonder if Bosa leaving school (Oct. 16) encouraged Gruden to REALLY start the rebuild process and increase the odds of getting the first pick. He thinks to himself, "If I can get this Bosa guy and he's a player, maybe everybody will shut up about Mack finally." ?

I mean, good grief, how is this team going to score points now? How are they gonna stop teams from scoring? Quick answers: they're not and they're not.

Carr has been mediocre to bad thus far. How's he gonna be now without Cooper? Granted, Cooper wasn't getting much in way of results but Ds still had to account for him. Now who is Carr going to throw to, especially with Lynch out for a month? Yikes!

I revised their win total from 11 to 6 with the Mack trade. I'm seeing four games they can MAYBE win the rest of the way--Colts, 9ers, Chargers, Broncos. I'll guess they win half those.

3-13.
3-13 seems like 1 win too many

 
3-13 seems like 1 win too many
? Hey, what can I say, I'm an optimist. Heck, I was an idiot enough to see em winning 11 games this year.

I think they can beat the Colts with two weeks to prepare--never mind all the crap that's gone on during that time.

And I think they can beat the Donkeys.

Ya gotta figure they'll win at least one more, right? And maybe they can sneak in another somewhere--Donkeys?

 
2018 is like one giant preseason. Theres no other way for me to look at it. I hope they don't win another game and secure the number one overall pick. Because let's be honest when the organization won't, they're not trying to win. Tanking, building character, whatever you want to call it, this year and next are not about winning games. 

 
2018 is like one giant preseason. Theres no other way for me to look at it. I hope they don't win another game and secure the number one overall pick. Because let's be honest when the organization won't, they're not trying to win. Tanking, building character, whatever you want to call it, this year and next are not about winning games. 
Raiders do not have the talent to win games.  They barely had the talent to stay competitive when Lynch and Cooper were on the field.  The Raiders may accidentally win a game or two this season but no more.  

 
Ed Wood said:
Boy, I've seen em on different pages for ahwile now. Recently, obviously, Gruden is getting rid of all of Reggie's guys.
Do we really think that all of these moves happen without it being discussed by everyone internally? Do you think these moves are happening in complete isolation from Reggie?

Seems like it was Reggie who swung the Cooper deal, not Gruden. Who really knows.

I am certain there are politics involved, as there are in every organization, and agree that current team trajectory isn't looking good for Reggie, though I hope we give him another year in this rebuild given a solid recent track record. The guys we are shedding provide a good foundation -- with picks, cap space, and/or talent that isn't panning out. I don't see this as simply targeting "Reggie's guys." 

Ed Wood said:
I revised their win total from 11 to 6 with the Mack trade. I'm seeing four games they can MAYBE win the rest of the way--Colts, 9ers, Chargers, Broncos. I'll guess they win half those.

3-13.
Colts have a high scoring offense and Luck is one of the better QBs in terms of tossing 15 TDs in the last four games with a patchwork crew of receivers. Chargers look like they can vie with the Chiefs for the division, and are clearly in a better class than us. Denver, not so much -- we played them close in Mile High, and our next game is at home, so will optimistically say the Raiders can win that one. 49ers are a complete wild card, as their D can be shredded but Beathard sometimes looks poised back there. 

I think your prediction of 3 games is directionally right, but I think we go 2-14. We'll win at least one out of our tilts with the 9ers, Cards, and Broncos.

 
My gut tells me Reggie is gone when his contract is up. He does a great job with the cap and creating team-friendly contracts but his draft picks have been sub par. He had one great draft in 2014 (Mack, Carr and Jackson). Other than Lat Murray the year before and Cooper in 2015 his draft picks have had almost zero impact on the field. Jury still out on Lee and Conley but early returns don't look too good.

When Carr broke his leg in the "fluke" season it was clear the team had a long way to go to be competitive without a QB who was on fire at the time. A lot of balls bounced their way that year, they had a horrible defense and an over rated offensive line with Penn giving them one good year at LT. As a whole they had no depth at all.

Obviously Gruden saw this team as a fraud from the announcers booth. And I understand what hes trying to do. They blamed the awful defense on Norton. They let Musgrave go, the only OC to get anything out of Carr. In 5 years or so they essentially had 6 good to great players (Mack, Carr, Cooper, Hudson, KO and Jackson). Minus Carr, who they were going to have to pay, and pay again if they decide to take them to Vegas. The rest, pretty much garbage. 

Gruden came to the Raiders not just for the money but for power and control. When they traded Mack they became committed to a complete rebuild and when they started the season 1-5 the fire sale began. The ship was sinking and now the ship is at the bottom of the ocean. Gruden now has full control to rebuild this ship in his image with his fingerprints on every player from Carr to the long snapper for the first time in his career. Did a full blown rebuild need to happen to restore greatness to this organization? Who knows.... Time will tell. In my opinion of watching almost every snap the past 25 years something needed to change. Since 2002 the Raiders were synonymous with dysfunction, mistakes and strange personnel moves and simply put, LOSING. Maybe this needed to happen. 2016 might have been the worst thing to happen because it created false hope. The 2017 version of the Raiders was the real team, and in Davis's eyes this was the only way. Start over, move on and prepare for Vegas. Sucks for fans, all we can do is hope that in 5 years we all look like idiots for criticizing the process. Sorry for the long post if you made it this far, it kinda got away from me.

 
2016 might have been the worst thing to happen because it created false hope. 
Great post. This part really sticks out to me.  So many things went our way that year, could have easily been 8-8 at the end of the season or worse. 

Though I still don't know how to explain our O-line going from as good as it was in 2016 to what it is now.   Carr had like 2 seconds to get rid of the ball against Seattle.  Is it just injuries or is Tom Cable at fault here for switching back to zone blocking?  With all the holes on the team I want to believe that O-line can be fixed easily as it's clear Carr needs to be protected in order to effective.

 
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000978057/article/gruden-certainly-i-dont-see-us-trading-derek-carr

Quotes:

"I don't see us making any more trades," Gruden repeated. "Certainly, I don't see us trading our quarterback."
"I don't see us making any more trades," Gruden told reporters. "I didn't see us making a trade the other day. I really didn't. But sometimes, like I said, your plans change whether you like it or not. You don't know who's going to call you and what they're going to say, you really don't. ... I don't see us making any more trades. But I'll never say never again to anybody."

 
They were probably surprised they got a 1st for Cooper. Can't really blame them for taking the deal, especially if they weren't planning on bringing him back. And watch Cooper is gonna have a monster 2nd half of the season with the Cowboys. That's just how those things work out for the Raiders. Cooper is a good kid, but he needs a fire lit under his a##. Maybe this will do it.

 
Ed Wood said:
About 9 pages got purged from this thread and that post was probably one of them. ?

Re: Cooper. I thought he was one of the most pro-ready receivers to come into the league in years. I likened him to Marvin Harrison. Somebody on the board compared him to Sterling Sharpe. After giving it some thought, I felt that was a more apt comparison.

Hard to figure what's happened to him last 1.5 years. I wouldn't call him soft at all but he seems to lack a real passion for--and love of--football. I still think he can carve out a nice career but he's not worth $13 million. The Raiders got a 1 from him from about the only franchise in the league that would be, uh, unwise enough to offer that considering what Cooper has produced lately.

This was a good deal.
Other than the drops it is hard to say 'he is not doing this' or 'he is deficient in this area'. It just seems that he is missing a killer instinct type of competitiveness that propels talent to greatness. I would not argue with someone saying it was that mysterious X factor that is missing. 

I do wonder if it is just scheme fit but he has had three schemes (granted the middle one makes me reconsider calling it a scheme). The one he did well enough in was under Musgrave who really pushed the ball to him. I would not not be overly surprised to see him flourish in another system that somehow fits him better but I am not really expecting it either. 

He will be in the league for a while. He will put up decent numbers but I don't think he is a true #1. I think I read a scouting report that said he is a top #2 and not a real #1 and I think I agree with that more than anything else. 

 
Ed Wood said:
Boy, I've seen em on different pages for ahwile now. Recently, obviously, Gruden is getting rid of all of Reggie's guys. And backwhen the Mack trade went down, Gruden was quoted saying something to the effect that he didn't know a Raiders second was in the deal and he wasn't involved in it.

Gruden has saved Davis a boatload by trading Mack and Cooper. I'm sure it won't be hard to convince Davis he doesn't really need a GM after McKenzie's contract runs out, thereby saving himself more cash.
I stopped believing outlining reports with the Raiders a long time ago. 

I have seen a report that the whole 2nd was Gruden's fault because teams were calling both of them and playing them off each other and Gruden offered the 2nd. 

Reggie says in public that they work together. Anything saying they don't is never backed with a credible report or evidence. It mostly comes down to that Gruden has much more power than any of the other HC under Reggie and that Davis essentially said the team would run under Gruden's leadership. I could be wrong but I don't see Reggie being an ego guy where he is going to be unhappy with less power for the simple fact that he does not have any power. 

I have to say the getting rid of "Reggies guys" argument just has to be thrown out of the freaking window. Unless we signed the guys in the offseason or they are a rookie- they are ALL Reggie's guys. Sure Mack is gone but I see that being more of a numbers (Reggie) reason than anything else. Cooper is gone because we got a great offer and we suck. And one more thing about Reggie's guys.... who has Reggie been reluctant to get rid of from someone he drafted or signed in the past? Reggie just isn't emotional like that. 

 
Agree 100%. Cooper is one of those super talented guys but just lacks "something ". Whether its killer instinct, vocal leadership, sense of urgency, fire or desire to be unstoppable. I get it, not everyone can be a Steve Smith or Hines Ward. I mean, even Tim Brown wasn't one of those types of players. But he displayed the desire to be great and live up to his full potential. At this point in his career, I can't say that about Cooper. I hope he proves me wrong someday. But a 1st rounder, even if it's in the late teens, early 20s was too good to pass up.

 
uh... sure.... but I couldn't see the Steelers doing that. 
You're probably right, but they could use help on D and I remember hearing somewhere that they were hot on Joseph's tail during his NFL draft. Hoping they see that the Raiders have grossly miscast this guy as a SS, when clearly he's a FS. And IMO would be a solid one on the right team.

At this point, Bell would be addition by subtraction, even if they got nothing for him, given what's transpired and especially with Conner's play. Joseph is a bonus.

 
Sorry, but Joseph is one of the worst 1st round draft picks Reggie has made. His style of play is just a penalty waiting to happen in today's NFL. They'll be lucky to get anything for him.

 
Agree 100%. Cooper is one of those super talented guys but just lacks "something ". Whether its killer instinct, vocal leadership, sense of urgency, fire or desire to be unstoppable. I get it, not everyone can be a Steve Smith or Hines Ward. I mean, even Tim Brown wasn't one of those types of players. But he displayed the desire to be great and live up to his full potential. At this point in his career, I can't say that about Cooper. I hope he proves me wrong someday. But a 1st rounder, even if it's in the late teens, early 20s was too good to pass up.
Wait, the same Tim Brown who was so incredibly vocal -- publicly and otherwise -- in criticizing Al, Norv Turner, and the Raider front office so much about his reduced role in the offense  (while he was a Raider and even after he was released in '04 to join Gruden's Bucs for one year) that when he had his big news conference to end his career -- 16 years as "Mr. Raider" -- only Amy Trask and a few guys from finance showed up to the ceremony?
 

That "quiet, self-spoken" Tim Brown?

Your points, though, as with the others, are absolutely right. Cooper never had that outward fire, has tons of potential and skill, and here's hoping he continues a successful NFL career.

 
Wanted to comment on Gruden saying he's been "pleased" and he's been "fine" with the team's effort. It's the execution, obviously, that's been lacking. So I hearken back to the Tampa Bay Bucs under the direction of John McKay, who endured an 0-14 expansion record in 1976 followed by an "improvement" to 2-12 the following season:

Reporter: John, what do you think of your team's execution?

McKay: I'm all for it.

That's probably how Gruden feels right now and this is how he's executing them. But the good news is in 1979 the Bucs and McKay won their division. More good news is that McKay didn't exactly kill with his draft picks.

He picked HOFer Lee Roy Selmon with I think the very first pick of the draft in 1976. He took Steve Young in the third round but he didn't turn any heads with the Bucs.

In 1977 he drafted Ricky Bell with his first pick and got some mileage out of him. He drafted Charley Hannah in the third round and he was serviceable (spent time with the Raiders) but probably was best known for being HOFer John Hannah's little brother.

In 1978 he drafted Doug Williams in the first round and I think he was an immediate starter. I know he quarterbacked the 1979 team but again he went on to fame with another team.

The 1979 and 1980 drafts were duds based on what I looked at and as memory serves.

I guess, as usual, I have no point to all this except I wanted to use McKay's "execution" line. ?

 
Wait, the same Tim Brown who was so incredibly vocal -- publicly and otherwise -- in criticizing Al, Norv Turner, and the Raider front office so much about his reduced role in the offense  (while he was a Raider and even after he was released in '04 to join Gruden's Bucs for one year) that when he had his big news conference to end his career -- 16 years as "Mr. Raider" -- only Amy Trask and a few guys from finance showed up to the ceremony?
 

That "quiet, self-spoken" Tim Brown?

Your points, though, as with the others, are absolutely right. Cooper never had that outward fire, has tons of potential and skill, and here's hoping he continues a successful NFL career.
It's not Timmy's fault that Al could be a petty, vindictive #######. And neither Al or Timmy's personality has anything to do with how hard Timmy worked to be great. Timmy bled for the Raiders. 

 
Michael Gehlken

@GehlkenNFL
 Raiders LB Jason Cabinda will start today for Emmanuel Lamur (healthy scratch). NFL debut for Cabinda, an undrafted rookie from Penn State.

Ian Rapoport

@RapSheet
 Sources: #Raiders S Reggie Nelson, the subject of fan angst, will be inactive today. Safeties Marcus Gilchrist, Karl Joseph and Erik Harris will rotate there. A shakeup on the defense

 
Michael Gehlken

@GehlkenNFL
 Raiders LB Jason Cabinda will start today for Emmanuel Lamur (healthy scratch). NFL debut for Cabinda, an undrafted rookie from Penn State.

Ian Rapoport

@RapSheet
 Sources: #Raiders S Reggie Nelson, the subject of fan angst, will be inactive today. Safeties Marcus Gilchrist, Karl Joseph and Erik Harris will rotate there. A shakeup on the defense
Yeah that did a lot of good. Doesn't matter who's playing, they can't stop anyone. 

 
It's not Timmy's fault that Al could be a petty, vindictive #######. And neither Al or Timmy's personality has anything to do with how hard Timmy worked to be great. Timmy bled for the Raiders. 
Without a doubt. No knock on TIm, one of my favorite Raider receivers, and a sheer joy to watch.

My comment wasn't about how Al F'd him over (and I'd agree he did -- will always defend the genius of AL except when it came to the way he treated guys like Brown, adn Marcus especially). 

My point was that the comment I quoted seemed to point to Brown being the same kind of quiet, not-rock-the-boat, not particularly out-spoken guy like Cooper appears to be, or that Brown went about his business without the apparent fire in the belly that Cooper also seems to lack, at least outwardly.

Brown was a fiery competitor who fought for the ball, could be demostrative on field and off, and was pretty outspoken at times during his career (unlike Cooper) --  especially when it came to criticizing the Raider office and coaches at the end of his term wearing SIlver and Black.

 
Glad I was away for my son’s soccer tournament and now don’t need to watch the game on TiVo. At least they scored some points but then gave it away in the 4th again, eh?

Go first overall draft pick!!!!

 
Why haven't Gruden and McKenzie found a suitor for a 30 year old 7 year veteran DE who has more 15 yard penalties than sacks this year?!  Come on already!

(to be quite honest I'm not certain how many 15 yard penalties Irvin has this year)

 
Why haven't Gruden and McKenzie found a suitor for a 30 year old 7 year veteran DE who has more 15 yard penalties than sacks this year?!  Come on already!

(to be quite honest I'm not certain how many 15 yard penalties Irvin has this year)
Likely because they see this year's draft class of Bosa, Rashan Gary, Raekwon Davis, and Clelin Ferrell as being deep, with other potential guys that can convert to ends (Sweat, Dexter Lawrence), etc.

 

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