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***Official Philadelphia Phillies Thread*** - Castellanos ****s wit Philly (5 Viewers)
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Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
hmm, they actually have almost the same OPS and WRC+.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
Byrd, Burnett and Papelbon are locks to go, right?
Insein
Footballguy
With Ruben? Nothing is a lock. And even if they do, do we get anything of value back?
Insein
Footballguy
Someone brought up the Lee trade today on the radio and it brought back even more painful memories. 2010, you just traded for Halladay. You have Lee under contract for one more year at $8mil and then can resign him for probably a lot less than the $26mil per you eventually did. The excuse given to trade him at the time? Not that you couldn't afford him. It was to restock the minor leagues. Oof.
Billy Bats
Footballguy
Insein
Footballguy
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
Billy Bats
Footballguy
Rotoworld: Dodgers expected to pursue Phillies' Papelbon - Jonathan Papelbon | PHI dlvr.it/6LZ5Bp
7:12pm - 16 Jul 14
7:12pm - 16 Jul 14
sporthenry
Footballguy
What we gave up for Pence could one day be brought up with some of the worst trades ever. What we got in return was somewhat fair for someone we didn't really want to overpay to play. A bit unfortunate with Joseph but we'll see what happens.
The Lee and Halladay trades were fine. Lee only had a year left so expecting a great return isn't fair. And the Phillies gave up what essentially has become Carrasco to get him. Halladay they gave up d'Arnaud but I think that is a decent trade off especially with the perceived depth the Phillies have at catcher.
Eephus
Footballguy
There's always risk in deadline deals. If the post-Pence Phillies made a deep playoff run that year, nobody would be complaining about the trade. Instead they lost to a team that won 12 fewer games and in retrospect, that looks like the beginning of the end of this team.
Singleton has potential but a number of negatives as well. There also was no place for him to play in Philadelphia. Cosart looks like a back of the rotation guy. Neither was an A prospect at the time, even by Phillies standards.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
I agree, though the supposedly accidental inclusion of Santana could make this pretty bad.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
sporthenry
Footballguy
Man on 3rd, <2 out, to win the game and Howard strikes out without even coming close to putting the ball in play. I refuse to go to a game as long as he bats clean up anymore.
ETA: Reports that team is contemplating releasing him. Don't understand why you'd do that. Dangle him through waivers and if nothing hits, just let him ride the pine. Team won't have many major leaguers on the roster to begin with in August. Only thing worse than trotting him out there is watching him make money while playing for another team.
ETA: Reports that team is contemplating releasing him. Don't understand why you'd do that. Dangle him through waivers and if nothing hits, just let him ride the pine. Team won't have many major leaguers on the roster to begin with in August. Only thing worse than trotting him out there is watching him make money while playing for another team.
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Billy Bats
Footballguy
Olney: Some teams that are dealing with the Phillies say they are having difficulty gaining traction in talks;not sure if PHI committed to dealing.
9:50pm - 27 Jul 14
####### Rube.
9:50pm - 27 Jul 14
####### Rube. 
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Well they're probably having difficulty in trade talks because they have so many bad contracts............Olney: Some teams that are dealing with the Phillies say they are having difficulty gaining traction in talks;not sure if PHI committed to dealing.
9:50pm - 27 Jul 14
Insein
Footballguy
Probably something like this.Well they're probably having difficulty in trade talks because they have so many bad contracts............Olney: Some teams that are dealing with the Phillies say they are having difficulty gaining traction in talks;not sure if PHI committed to dealing.
9:50pm - 27 Jul 14
GM: "Well how much money are you willing to eat?"
Rube: "I'm not allowed to discuss financial decisions without my ownership's approval."
GM: "You're the GM right?"
Rube: "That's what they tell me."
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
Everyone except Utley should be traded. I only keep Utley because he's the face of the Phillies and I don't mind doing that.
I don't care if I get back a double A guy batting .200, I'd dump everyone. No reason to hold onto these bums.
It's funny that going into this season, the Phillies caught crap because they signed Marlon Byrd. Now he's our best trade bait. What does that say about your franchise?
I don't care if I get back a double A guy batting .200, I'd dump everyone. No reason to hold onto these bums.
It's funny that going into this season, the Phillies caught crap because they signed Marlon Byrd. Now he's our best trade bait. What does that say about your franchise?
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Agree with most of this but what is your reservation with trading Utley? I understand he has sentimental value but this is a business and if the Phils are serious about winning in the future, he should be on the trade block as well.
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
I'm not 100% opposed. But I don't mind keeping a fan favorite to help the slow rebuilding process. I'm an Astros fan, and I love what they did. They're going to be awesome. But for 4 years, no one was on the team worth watching. I wouldn't mind seeing Utley retire as a Phillie. That's all.
The Flying Elvis
Footballguy
Nick Cafardo @nickcafardo 4mAt this time Phillies frustrated by what teams are offering for their players
Boston, MA
Billy Bats
Footballguy
He won't trade anyone then will get even less, if anything at all, in the winter. What a ####### buffoon.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Amaro wants the other team to take on the full contract and give up 3-4 top prospects for Hamels. He's basically nuts.
Billy Bats
Footballguy
Straight out of his mind. Considering the roster he's kept for the last couple seasons, he's probably telling other GMs that Howard is a 50hr guy.
He's choking on all the contracts he's given out. Byrd is the most tradeable player he has but any trade is being held up by Byrd wanting his option guaranteed, can't even trade him. So pathetic.
The Flying Elvis
Footballguy
Mike Petriello @mike_petriello 5m
According to this: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2014/07/29/mlb-trade-deadline-jon-lester-john-lackey-cole-hamels-cliff-lee/13327255/ … PHI asked for Joc/Seager/Urias for Hamels. Heard that elsewhere, too. Good luck, Ruben.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2014/07/29/mlb-trade-deadline-jon-lester-john-lackey-cole-hamels-cliff-lee/13327255/
According to this: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2014/07/29/mlb-trade-deadline-jon-lester-john-lackey-cole-hamels-cliff-lee/13327255/ … PHI asked for Joc/Seager/Urias for Hamels. Heard that elsewhere, too. Good luck, Ruben.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2014/07/29/mlb-trade-deadline-jon-lester-john-lackey-cole-hamels-cliff-lee/13327255/
Thunderlips
Footballguy
The trades were fine. It wasn't fine moving Lee to replace what you gave up for Halladay. At the end of the day, Lee and Halladay for 2010 would have been worth Aumont,
Sox are asking something similar for Lester. Hamels is a better pitcher than Lestah.The Flying Elvis said:
Thunderlips
Footballguy
The big problem with Ruben's regime that they didn't win another WS or two. If Damon doesn't steal third and Hamels doesn't implode....they're going back to back and that would change a lot of opinions on Rube. Hell, if Cody Ross isn't Babe Ruth and Cliff Lee doesn't blow a four run lead against STL....they might have been in 4 straight WS. More championships and everyone doesn't have a problem with the way he's run things. That being said, his biggest problem was the idea that he continually overpaid to try and right mistakes that he made.....Think about it......
1) Not locking Werth up in 08. Werth started 08 platooning with Jenkins. By the end, it was obvious that Werth was pretty good. He's 29 at that time and wasn't making anything. Amaro went into 09 with him as the starting RF. A GM with foresight tears up his current contract and locks him in until he's about 34/35. The Phils had no problem paying Pence 10+M in 2012. You think that they could have gotten Werth for less than that after the WS in 08? I do. Having Werth elminates the need for Pence, thus the Phils would have kept the prospects that they required to get Pence.
2) He gets Lee in 09 (great trade).....and then gets Halladay in 10 (another great trade), then decides he's spending too much on pitching so moves Lee(horrible trade). Halfway thru 10, he decides he's needs more pitching and gets Oswalt (mixed trade....Oswalt pitched well)..yet he pays Oswalt just about as much as he would have had to pay Lee. So he essentially gave up three prospects (Happ, Villar, Gose) AND a top of the rotation pitcher in the first half of 2010 for Oswalt's second half and Aumont, Gilles and Rameriez. Neverminding that he's on the hook for Oswalt's contract in 2011.....which plays into:
3) He finally decides he wants Lee again...so he resigns him (great move). Now he has 4 aces.....but noone to play the OF. So he moves a cache of players for Pence......when it might have been simpler to run Lee, Hamels, Halladay, Kendrick, Worley and Happ out there....and use more of the Oswalt money to pay Werth whom he would have locked up in 08....
So by locking up Werth in 08 and not trading Lee in 09....he would have had Werth in 2011,2012,2013....Lee in 2010 and Gose, Villar, Happ, Singleton, Cosart and Santana to play with and grow......all for about the same amount of money that he ran thru with Oswalt and Pence.
1) Not locking Werth up in 08. Werth started 08 platooning with Jenkins. By the end, it was obvious that Werth was pretty good. He's 29 at that time and wasn't making anything. Amaro went into 09 with him as the starting RF. A GM with foresight tears up his current contract and locks him in until he's about 34/35. The Phils had no problem paying Pence 10+M in 2012. You think that they could have gotten Werth for less than that after the WS in 08? I do. Having Werth elminates the need for Pence, thus the Phils would have kept the prospects that they required to get Pence.
2) He gets Lee in 09 (great trade).....and then gets Halladay in 10 (another great trade), then decides he's spending too much on pitching so moves Lee(horrible trade). Halfway thru 10, he decides he's needs more pitching and gets Oswalt (mixed trade....Oswalt pitched well)..yet he pays Oswalt just about as much as he would have had to pay Lee. So he essentially gave up three prospects (Happ, Villar, Gose) AND a top of the rotation pitcher in the first half of 2010 for Oswalt's second half and Aumont, Gilles and Rameriez. Neverminding that he's on the hook for Oswalt's contract in 2011.....which plays into:
3) He finally decides he wants Lee again...so he resigns him (great move). Now he has 4 aces.....but noone to play the OF. So he moves a cache of players for Pence......when it might have been simpler to run Lee, Hamels, Halladay, Kendrick, Worley and Happ out there....and use more of the Oswalt money to pay Werth whom he would have locked up in 08....
So by locking up Werth in 08 and not trading Lee in 09....he would have had Werth in 2011,2012,2013....Lee in 2010 and Gose, Villar, Happ, Singleton, Cosart and Santana to play with and grow......all for about the same amount of money that he ran thru with Oswalt and Pence.
sporthenry
Footballguy
Why wouldn't people take on Hamels contract? At worst, it is a market contract. At best, it's a great contract. Yes the asking price was a bit ridiculous but his contract makes him very valuable.
Lastly, seems like some people want to trade people just to trade them. Remember what we got back for Victorino? Byrd and company aren't going to get a ton. No sense to pay a majority of his contract to get back a bunch of AAAA players. Not going to rebuild with anything you get from them.
Lastly, seems like some people want to trade people just to trade them. Remember what we got back for Victorino? Byrd and company aren't going to get a ton. No sense to pay a majority of his contract to get back a bunch of AAAA players. Not going to rebuild with anything you get from them.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
It's a hated term in Philly by most of the media....but the Phillies need to take a book from Sam Hinkie and get into asset acquistion mose. Byrd's played well this year....one of the bright spots of the team and Rube's year....but, if he can get me a raw prospect...I'm taking it.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
IMO you keep Hamels, maybe try to deal Lee in the off-season along with anyone else you can get rid of. Having an ace to build around is underrated and getting prospects is a slippery slope, especially when you project to make quite a few vet for kids trades. For Lee sure, but Hamels is just 30 and he probably has three or four premium years left.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
If you can get an elite position player prospect.....I think I'd rather have that. I think Hamels is underrated as far as pitchers go.....but he's going to be 31 by Opening Day 2015 and I don't think he'll be around by the time this team is relevant again.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Problem is most of the elite position prospects are on teams that aren't going to trade with the Phillies (Cubs, Astros, Twins). Of what's left the Dodgers have two very good but probably not eiite prospects, which I'm guessing they'll deal one of. I heard Phillies asked for Seager, Urias, and Pederson. If you could get two of those guys back for Hamels that would probably be a good deal.
Insein
Footballguy
Insein
Footballguy
Realistically you need to get 2 close to major league ready starters with solid potential at least for Hamels. Otherwise you just keep him. Id do that deal with LA especially if theyre picking up a majority of the money.
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Parrothead
Footballguy
probably Marlon Byrd? who knows with RAJ... 
Insein
Footballguy
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Billy Bats
Footballguy
Shocked I tell ya.
Billy Bats
Footballguy
The return for Price was Smyly, Franklin and Adames. Not quite what Rube was looking for in a Hamels return. Shows just how delusional he is.
Insein
Footballguy
I dont think the owners watch baseball. They just tune in when we make the playoffs. How else can you explain Ruben not even fearing his job will be gone. Hes coming back next year to "make another run" and "be a contender."Cliff - wait
Can't make this stuff up. I'm almost rooting for a rest of season so bad that it forces ownership to take a scorched earth approach to rebuilding this team after the season ends. I think they need 1 step back to take 2 forward right now.
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Billy Bats
Footballguy
But Ruby told Paps that "they'll continue to compete for the next few years."Cliff - wait
Can't make this stuff up. I'm almost rooting for a rest of season so bad that it forces ownership to take a scorched earth approach to rebuilding this team after the season ends. I think they need 1 step back to take 2 forward right now.
In order to continue, that means you never stopped, right?
Good lord.
mquinnjr
Footballguy
If he just cuts Howard for nothing after making no rebuild moves at the deadline, throw me a pitchfork. Seriously.I dont think the owners watch baseball. They just tune in when we make the playoffs. How else can you explain Ruben not even fearing his job will be gone. Hes coming back next year to "make another run" and "be a contender."Cliff - wait
Can't make this stuff up. I'm almost rooting for a rest of season so bad that it forces ownership to take a scorched earth approach to rebuilding this team after the season ends. I think they need 1 step back to take 2 forward right now.
