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***Official Pittsburgh Pirates 2010 Thread*** (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Drunken Cowboy
- Start date
whoknew
Footballguy
This makes zero sense. He is terrible.
whoknew
Footballguy
It's a bad signing because he can't hit. You can get a slick fielding, no hit SS for the league minimum. So they wasted $1.1mm plus a roster spot.
his 61 RBIs would have ranked 2nd on the team last year.his 39 2Bs would have been first.yes, most of the players on the team need to have their stats prorated. but those are good numbers. the rest of his numbres suck, granted.as for all fielding, that's great. this team is going to be more of a pitching/fielding team this year anyway. why not have a stud fielder at SS? he is older than i thought he was, though.
Eephus
Footballguy
Crosby could be a valuable pickup if he could stay healthy and hit .250. But he hasn't proven he can do either with any consistency. In retrospect, his RotY wasn't that impressive and he hasn't developed in large part due to injuries.
whoknew
Footballguy
Those numbers are from 2008. When he had a 75 OPS+. His OPS+ the last 4 years:67677572He had a good 2005. Everything else has been horrible. Again - it's a waste of $1.1mm plus a roster spot.
Balco
Footballguy
I think that is a very reasonable deal. Unless you think Cedeno needs to be the full time starter. If they signed Crosby to a 2 year deal, than yes, I wouldn't be a fan. But it is a one year deal. What were the Pirates other options? Orlando Cabrera? He would want a multi year deal. The Pirates are building young talent, they need a stop gap at SS right now, and Crosby gives them that.whoknew said:
Are they really any better with Crosby than Cedeno?
Balco
Footballguy
I think 1.1 mil for 1 year for infield depth is a good deal. John McDonald, for example, just signed with the Jays for 2 years at 1.5 per. WHat would angry Pirate fans like to see them spend the roster spot on?
monessen
Footballguy
The Pirates continued their commitment to losing by releasing Matt Capps last night. They didn't even try to deal him, nor they did tender him an offer. Another case where the Bucs say one thing and do another.
As far as Cedeno vs. Crosby goes, if you have 2 shortshops earning 2.1 million between them, does it really matter who starts? We aren't talking Jimmy Rollins here. And if the Braves wanted to move Soriano for Jesse Chavez, couldn't they have made that swap with the Bucs since the Pirates also need a closer? "Aki" is an infielder who couldn't stay healthy in Tampa. We aren't talking Chase Utley here.
It's going to be a long season. An extended painful one is still better than no team, given the beauty of the stadium. But the people who operate the club are perfecting the art of sophistry and disingenuousness. And they lie.
As far as Cedeno vs. Crosby goes, if you have 2 shortshops earning 2.1 million between them, does it really matter who starts? We aren't talking Jimmy Rollins here. And if the Braves wanted to move Soriano for Jesse Chavez, couldn't they have made that swap with the Bucs since the Pirates also need a closer? "Aki" is an infielder who couldn't stay healthy in Tampa. We aren't talking Chase Utley here.
It's going to be a long season. An extended painful one is still better than no team, given the beauty of the stadium. But the people who operate the club are perfecting the art of sophistry and disingenuousness. And they lie.
whoknew
Footballguy
The Capps thing was pretty understandable. He was pretty awful last year yet likely would have gotten a big raise in arbitration because of his previous two years. Maybe they could have traded him - but paying $4mm to a closer with a 71 ERA+ doesn't make much sense for the Bucs.monessen said:
monessen
Footballguy
They were afraid they'd lose to Capps in arbitration. It was too late to deal him, so they took the easy and cheap way out and got zilch for him. Did he light it up in 2009? No. Did they give up on the guy prematurely? Probably. Who is to say he can't rebound? Besides, when they were holding their June/July fire sale, they could have dealt him then, and didn't. So, can we really call this organization with its eye on the future very far-sightedness now? No, sirreee.
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editor47
Footballguy
let's see how many teams line up to sign up matt capps. will he get a job? will he get what he would have gotten in arbitration? probably not. he won't go anywhere to close.
people complain about wasting money, but not spending on a player you don't need is a good move. closers for bad teams grow on trees.
people complain about wasting money, but not spending on a player you don't need is a good move. closers for bad teams grow on trees.
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monessen
Footballguy
Always amazing, no, baffling to me is the number of people who don't follow the Pirates but have an opinion on the organization and its players. And that the opinion is generally favorable. The franchise takes 1 step back, then 2 more each year, but somehow fans from elsewhere think they are on the right track and are buying into management's propaganda. Thankfully, even the long-time local beat writer at the Post-Gazette is getting jaded. The columnists have been for years now.
Capps will be signed; the Pirates pledged to tender him and offer and backed off at the 11th hour. As far as Bobby Crosby vs. Ronny Cedeno, this is an admission that Diaz, the shortshop acquired from Boston is not major-league caliber. So, they what did they get for Adam LaRoche again? The point is that whether it's Capps, LaRoche, or whomever, the Bucs are willing to except less or even nothing just to avoid a $40 million dollar payroll. Want Cedeno or Crosby as your fantasy shortshop this year? How about Hanrahan as your fantasy closer? Leave fantasy out for a second. Do you believe these guys are real contributors to a major league team's chances of contending?
Capps will be signed; the Pirates pledged to tender him and offer and backed off at the 11th hour. As far as Bobby Crosby vs. Ronny Cedeno, this is an admission that Diaz, the shortshop acquired from Boston is not major-league caliber. So, they what did they get for Adam LaRoche again? The point is that whether it's Capps, LaRoche, or whomever, the Bucs are willing to except less or even nothing just to avoid a $40 million dollar payroll. Want Cedeno or Crosby as your fantasy shortshop this year? How about Hanrahan as your fantasy closer? Leave fantasy out for a second. Do you believe these guys are real contributors to a major league team's chances of contending?
Eephus
Footballguy
Link?
Balco
Footballguy
I am definitely an outsider, but am a fan of baseball in general.
I have seen the Pirates give long term deals to players like Derek Bell, Pat MEares, and Matt Morris. I think they have finally smartened up. No long term deals for good (or in Meares' case, horrible), not great players. The Devil Rays learned it after the Wilson Alvarez, Greg Vaughn . . . etc. contracts. Build up the minor league system, and only be buyers when the youngsters are up. The next question is whether management will be able to identify their good young talent and sign them to long term deals like other franchises (Longoria, Braun, Tulowitzki . . . etc).
I could be mistaken, but haven't the Pirates started spending good money on amateurs? That is a good sign. Overpay a guy like Capps or Orlando Cabrera or spend said money on scouting and amateur signings?
I have one criticism of the Pirates (which has been discussed ad naseum) - trading Nate McLouth and his very affordable salary.
Unlike in seasons past, the Pirates appear to be assembling young talent. Andrew McCutcheon is going to be a star all around player, and Pedro Alvarez will be there shortly.
If Pirate fans want, they can be like the Houston Astros, who are devoid of minor league talent, and are now making questionable long term signings at the major league level. I personally would look to the MArlins and Rays for a blueprint on how to build a young solid team.
I have seen the Pirates give long term deals to players like Derek Bell, Pat MEares, and Matt Morris. I think they have finally smartened up. No long term deals for good (or in Meares' case, horrible), not great players. The Devil Rays learned it after the Wilson Alvarez, Greg Vaughn . . . etc. contracts. Build up the minor league system, and only be buyers when the youngsters are up. The next question is whether management will be able to identify their good young talent and sign them to long term deals like other franchises (Longoria, Braun, Tulowitzki . . . etc).
I could be mistaken, but haven't the Pirates started spending good money on amateurs? That is a good sign. Overpay a guy like Capps or Orlando Cabrera or spend said money on scouting and amateur signings?
I have one criticism of the Pirates (which has been discussed ad naseum) - trading Nate McLouth and his very affordable salary.
Unlike in seasons past, the Pirates appear to be assembling young talent. Andrew McCutcheon is going to be a star all around player, and Pedro Alvarez will be there shortly.
If Pirate fans want, they can be like the Houston Astros, who are devoid of minor league talent, and are now making questionable long term signings at the major league level. I personally would look to the MArlins and Rays for a blueprint on how to build a young solid team.
monessen
Footballguy
Capps evidently won't be unemployed for long. Someone doubted he would get many offers. Well, surprise, surprise, surprise. Apparently, there are plenty. Good thing the Bucs released him. Probably the best move of his career.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09349/1020979-63.stm
The Pirates have been talking FOR YEARS about using teams like Tampa and the Twins as models for what they would like to do in building their squad. Sadly, they turn around and trade those very young stars they'd previously touted in exchange for minor leaguers. Ryan Doumit, the so-called Pirates catcher of the future will be next to go. And that is not a decision of the regime that signed Meares, Bell, etc. Nor is it part of the contingent that dealt Aramis Ramirez, the Pirates third baseball of the future who became the Cubs third baseman. It's part of the current regime-----the one that traded Bay, McLouth, etc. for marginal talent (they already released Jeff Karstens). Anybody want to buy season tickets? Jason Jaramillo Bobble-Head Night should be a real crowd-pleaser.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09349/1020979-63.stm
The Pirates have been talking FOR YEARS about using teams like Tampa and the Twins as models for what they would like to do in building their squad. Sadly, they turn around and trade those very young stars they'd previously touted in exchange for minor leaguers. Ryan Doumit, the so-called Pirates catcher of the future will be next to go. And that is not a decision of the regime that signed Meares, Bell, etc. Nor is it part of the contingent that dealt Aramis Ramirez, the Pirates third baseball of the future who became the Cubs third baseman. It's part of the current regime-----the one that traded Bay, McLouth, etc. for marginal talent (they already released Jeff Karstens). Anybody want to buy season tickets? Jason Jaramillo Bobble-Head Night should be a real crowd-pleaser.
who cares? let some team overpay for what he's really worth. any team that signs him as a closer is going to suck. any team that signs him to setup may be OK, but he's going to blow games for them. he's a dime-a-dozen reliever with meh skills. i wish him the best.
but for people to complain about signing bobby crosby for $1M and then complain about not signing this guy for $3M plus is just insane.
monessen
Footballguy
The Astros were in the 2005 World Series. The Pirates were in the 1979 World Series. The Astros have Oswalt, Carlos Lee. Pence, Bergman, Feliz, Wandy Rodriguez, Bourn, etc. Whose roster would you rather have? The Astros may have lost 88 games last year but the Bucs will continue to top that Astro loss total for some time. Interestingly, while the Pirates were securing the services of superstar Bobby Crosby who is earning more than twice what Jeff Keppinger earns in Houston, it was a good idea for the Astros to fill some holes with their signings (Feliz, Lindstrom), one of which was Brandon Lyon. The Pirates traded for Lyon one year yet returned him to Boston after a week because of a frayed elbow ligament. Some top notch scouting there. But his arm seems to be doing much better in recent years. It got better during his stay with the Red Sox and Arizona.
Black&Gold
Footballguy
You know I'll be taking him early this year........
monessen
Footballguy
No link, but I have it on good authority that the Nuttting family was visited by 3 Christmas spirits last night-----one took them to the glory years of the 70s, another pointed out their current roster, and a third showed them that 2011 will be no different from 2009. So, the Scrooges can ante up and instead of bypassing the Garrett Atkins and Mike Gonzales types in favor of administering low-ball offers instead to Kevin Gregg or Octavio Dotel, they can get busy now.
I can't believe that Baltimore, a small market team no different from the Pirates, can afford to sign productive major leaguers, but the Scrooges can't. And that's how the Coonelly-Huntington-Nutting trio will be referred by me from here on---The Three Scrooges. I hope those ski resorts in PA and WV continue to prosper under the Nutting name since they will always have a good source of revenue thanks to Buc fans.
Merry Christmas to all! Don't worry about Capps; he'll bounce back.
I can't believe that Baltimore, a small market team no different from the Pirates, can afford to sign productive major leaguers, but the Scrooges can't. And that's how the Coonelly-Huntington-Nutting trio will be referred by me from here on---The Three Scrooges. I hope those ski resorts in PA and WV continue to prosper under the Nutting name since they will always have a good source of revenue thanks to Buc fans.
Merry Christmas to all! Don't worry about Capps; he'll bounce back.
editor47
Footballguy
you act like either one of those guys would signed had the pirates just offered them a contract. not sure how quickly players are jumping to sign with the pirates at this point. as for atkins, he's a 30-year-old whose numbers have declined each of the last 4 years. yes, they were still solid 2 years ago, but its been a steady decline nonetheless.how many injuries has gonzalez had? i will admit that if they were going to sign someome for 1 year, $3 million, I'd rather it be Capps than Dotel. Maybe they can get Valverde now that no one has signed him to be a closer. Sign him, trade him in July and reap a prospect or two.monessen said:
monessen
Footballguy
As to Atkins (slumping for sure but signed for only 1 yr at 4 million) and Gonzalez, Baltimore seemingly is no closer to competing in their division than the Pirates are in theirs. Tampa, Boston, and . . .oh yeah, the Yankees are in the way. Toronto isn't bad, either. The Orioles had to replace Huff and Mora. I never heard of the Pirates making an offer to either Atkins or Gonzalez, and that's the point. At no time did I say those two would jump at the chance at being a Pirate (At the MLB level, those players are few and usually have no other options); I wrote the Bucs simply pass on such names. Their MO is to go the After Christmas Sale route. Valverde can command a high salary, so he is not a consideration. The Pirates may be content in the bullpen with their compelling 1-2 punch of Hanrahan and J. Lopez.
editor47
Footballguy
you have no idea if there was a phone call made between management and agent and the agent said, not interested. even if they didn't, like capps, atkins and gonzalez aren't the answers. i would still rather see andy laroche every day than go with atkins at 3B.
monessen
Footballguy
From Pittsburgh Post-Gazette sportswriter's Bob Smizik's column last week:
* The Baltimore Orioles, a team with 12 consecutive losing season, are close to or already have signed left-handed closer Mike Gonzalez to a contract reported to be $12 million for two years. The Pirates, in desperate need of a left-hander reliever and a closer, apparently were not involved with Gonzalez. There could be two reasons for that: 1) The Pirates won’t pay that kind of money; 2) Having started his career with the Pirates and knowing the situation in Pittsburgh, Gonzalez wanted nothing to do with his former team.
* The Orioles also are close to signing corner infielder Garrett Atkins, who slumped with Colorado last year but in the three previous seasons averaged 25 home runs and 110 RBIs. But why would the Pirates be interested in Atkins? They have Andy LaRoche penciled in at third and Jeff Clement at first.
I believe that last statement of Smizik's was tongue-in-cheek. Nah, it was just sarcasm.
* The Baltimore Orioles, a team with 12 consecutive losing season, are close to or already have signed left-handed closer Mike Gonzalez to a contract reported to be $12 million for two years. The Pirates, in desperate need of a left-hander reliever and a closer, apparently were not involved with Gonzalez. There could be two reasons for that: 1) The Pirates won’t pay that kind of money; 2) Having started his career with the Pirates and knowing the situation in Pittsburgh, Gonzalez wanted nothing to do with his former team.
* The Orioles also are close to signing corner infielder Garrett Atkins, who slumped with Colorado last year but in the three previous seasons averaged 25 home runs and 110 RBIs. But why would the Pirates be interested in Atkins? They have Andy LaRoche penciled in at third and Jeff Clement at first.
I believe that last statement of Smizik's was tongue-in-cheek. Nah, it was just sarcasm.
dparker713
Footballguy
Baltimore is not, and never has been, a small market team. And Garret Atkins sucks donkey balls both defensively and at the plate - the fact he got 4 mil is an act of lunacy.
Chairshot
Footballguy
I don't know I'd go so far as to say that he's that bad, but he has struggled. I still think it's possible that he rebounds, though I have no idea if he actually will. I definitely agree that $4 mill is pretty crazy, though. The O's probably need 2007 Atkins to come back for him to be worth that. He could be 2007 Atkins again, sometimes a change of scenery is good for a player. But it's a fairly big risk and for a position they don't really need. I don't totally understand it.
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Balco
Footballguy
It makes me wonder why some Pirates fans were clamoring for Atkins, when their current 3B is a better hitter. Atkins had an anemic OPS (.650). Andy Laroche, the present Pirates 3B had a .731 OPS. Pedro Alvarez might be manning 3B by the All Star break anyway.
Balco
Footballguy
THat is a pretty big risk. His OPS has been on a downward trend the last several years. Couple that with poor defense, and it is just not worth it.
monessen
Footballguy
From Bob Smizik's sports blog in today's Pgh Post-Gazette----
* The Pirates decision not to extend manager John Russell and leave him in what amounts to lame-duck status in the final year of his contract should surprise no one. It is typical of the tight-fisted fiscal policy of Bob Nutting that is carried out to perfection by Frank Coonelly. In essence, it is this: Never pay more than you have to for anyone. That might work in some business, but succeeding in baseball requires more risks than Nutting and Coonelly seem willing to take. The Pirates would no more think of having to pay someone not to manage than they would of being active in the free-agent market.
Smizik has covered the Pirates for nearly 40 years and seen regimes come and go.
* The Pirates decision not to extend manager John Russell and leave him in what amounts to lame-duck status in the final year of his contract should surprise no one. It is typical of the tight-fisted fiscal policy of Bob Nutting that is carried out to perfection by Frank Coonelly. In essence, it is this: Never pay more than you have to for anyone. That might work in some business, but succeeding in baseball requires more risks than Nutting and Coonelly seem willing to take. The Pirates would no more think of having to pay someone not to manage than they would of being active in the free-agent market.
Smizik has covered the Pirates for nearly 40 years and seen regimes come and go.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Some people say that Pittsburgh fans are bandwagoners but the fact that we have an "official Pirates" thread every year proves how much we care about this team. The team is an absolute disgrace right now and they probably will be for the next few years. I'm just hoping that this new management has a clue..........
dparker713
Footballguy
Im absolutely baffled by this entire post. 1) Has Russell done anything to deserve being extended?2) Has Russell done anything to deserve being fired?3) Is there a big market out there for Russell's services, such that its a big risk to let him hit free agency?4) Hasnt Nutting been spending alot on the draft and international player development?5) Shouldn't the Pirates be highly cognizant of their financial limitations and try to limit expenditures where they can? Including carrying as little dead money as possible?6) Is the writer completely unaware that the Pirates are a small market team and are unable to compete if consistently pay more than they have to?7) Does the writer realize that the players the Pirates have acquired are all risks, seeing as they're unknown quantities being projected in a very uncertain business? Or does he just not like those types of risks?8) Does he realize that signing any FA necessarily means overpaying them, as the team will have offered more than any of the other 29 teams are willing to pay? And that a small market team can not build a team through free agency?9) How does the length of time someone has been covering the team have any bearing on this post? The only thing it does is make me feel pity that this is the quality of coverage that the Pirates fans have been exposed to for 40 years.monessen said:
editor47
Footballguy
to answer your questions in broad strokes, yes, i think people in pittsburgh generally don't like to think of themselves in terms of being a small-market team.
as for covering a team for 40 years - its got a negative affect. the pirates were good and have won WS titles. why can't they do it now?
as for covering a team for 40 years - its got a negative affect. the pirates were good and have won WS titles. why can't they do it now?
monessen
Footballguy
The point of the post is that is it both news and informed opinion from a long-time source. I believe the news about Russell, in and of itself, was worth noting. Smizik evidently feels that it is a leap of faith to accept what Nutting claims to be doing to improve the organization. Smizik's highly-respected tenure and his coverage on the team speaks for itself. You may not like or agree with it, but he's in a prime position to observe the operation of the franchise. Attacking Smizik as the messenger here is similar to attacking Peter Gammons as a baseball sage. By the way, more that a couple of years ago, Peter Gammons predicted that David Littlefield would turn the Pirates into winners. If anything, I trust Smizik's view more than Gammons's as it relates to the Pirate status quo.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
I stopped listening or reading anything Bob Smizik says about baseball a long time ago. People can have their opinions, but Dejan Kovacevic is the only writer for the Post-Gazette who's remotely in touch with the Pirates. His PBC Blog is great.
Smizik just tries to write stuff to stir up opinions and a lot of his blog posts are full of stretched truths and uninformed opinions. I've personally posted stuff on it before that contradicted what he's said with actual, statistical, fact-based arguments - all in a respectful tone - and at least half the time they've been erased by the moderators. He wrote back to me once himself that because he writes so many opinion pieces, he rarely has the time to thoroughly research his stances or back up his opinions with statistics.
Whether this plan works or not, they're doing it the right way. It comes down to how well this group evaluates young talent, and no matter how smart everyone thinks they are or how poorly past GMs did, no one knows that yet.
McCutchen
Iwamura
Jones
Doumit
Milledge
Clement
LaRoche
Crosby/Cedeno
It's not a terrible lineup if Clement can be a solid hitter, and it stands to improve when Alvarez comes up midseason. They just need to find or develop a few promising arms and a few of their higher cieling minors like Marte and D'Arnaud need to continue to develop. And I hope they get a good return when they eventually move Doumit, because Sanchez will be ready to replace him within a couple years.
Pitching help is just farther away
Smizik just tries to write stuff to stir up opinions and a lot of his blog posts are full of stretched truths and uninformed opinions. I've personally posted stuff on it before that contradicted what he's said with actual, statistical, fact-based arguments - all in a respectful tone - and at least half the time they've been erased by the moderators. He wrote back to me once himself that because he writes so many opinion pieces, he rarely has the time to thoroughly research his stances or back up his opinions with statistics.
Whether this plan works or not, they're doing it the right way. It comes down to how well this group evaluates young talent, and no matter how smart everyone thinks they are or how poorly past GMs did, no one knows that yet.
McCutchen
Iwamura
Jones
Doumit
Milledge
Clement
LaRoche
Crosby/Cedeno
It's not a terrible lineup if Clement can be a solid hitter, and it stands to improve when Alvarez comes up midseason. They just need to find or develop a few promising arms and a few of their higher cieling minors like Marte and D'Arnaud need to continue to develop. And I hope they get a good return when they eventually move Doumit, because Sanchez will be ready to replace him within a couple years.
Pitching help is just farther away
monessen
Footballguy
Well, we agree about one thing---your second sentence. Dejan is the only writer there remotely in touch with the Pirates. All the others (Collier, Cook, etc) have run out of punch lines and have given up on this regime already. Dejan cannot afford to do that, though his blog has been a bit sardonic lately. He's the beat writer, so he can't alienate the organization too much.
As far as doing things the right way, Chad Hermanson, Bryan Bullington, and Ryan Vogelsong are part of the prevous much-heralded youth movements that yielded a fraternity of flops. All were considered "can't miss" prospects.
Essentially, the team is committed, or stuck, depending on your viewpoint. They can't lure good free-agents and they won't even pay guys like Gorzellany or Capps, so they have put their eggs in the basket of another contingent of minor-leaguers. Who is to say that this regime won't trade a player such as McCutchen---as they did with Aramis Ramirez--if he blossoms further in the next 2 years and thereby would command a higher salary? What are we putting our faith in that would offset the track record? The best hope is that the players in 2010 & 2011 play well but are willing to play for less than market value or they'll be part of a fire sale like the one in 2009.
As far as doing things the right way, Chad Hermanson, Bryan Bullington, and Ryan Vogelsong are part of the prevous much-heralded youth movements that yielded a fraternity of flops. All were considered "can't miss" prospects.
Essentially, the team is committed, or stuck, depending on your viewpoint. They can't lure good free-agents and they won't even pay guys like Gorzellany or Capps, so they have put their eggs in the basket of another contingent of minor-leaguers. Who is to say that this regime won't trade a player such as McCutchen---as they did with Aramis Ramirez--if he blossoms further in the next 2 years and thereby would command a higher salary? What are we putting our faith in that would offset the track record? The best hope is that the players in 2010 & 2011 play well but are willing to play for less than market value or they'll be part of a fire sale like the one in 2009.
dparker713
Footballguy
Welcome to being a small market team in 2010. See, Minnesota, Tampa Bay and Florida for examples of how to properly run a small market team.Atleast the current management seems to understand Pittsburg is a small market team and has acted accordingly. The plan seems to be correct, now to see if the execution matches.
Balco
Footballguy
The key to me, is to see if Pittsburgh is willing to extend a guy like McCutcheon to a long term deal, like other teams have done with their young stars - (Longoria, Tulowitzki, Braun). I think they are headed in the right direction (save for the bad McLouth trade), not giving long term deals to average (at best) veterans, and increasing their spending in the draft and international players.